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Why were the Makuta in Karda Nui at all?


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29 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 05:51 PM

If the goal of the Plan was to have the Toa reawaken Mata Nui, then why did the Makuta go and get in their way at all? If the Makuta hadn't come, then the Toa would have just been able to go in, reawaken Mata Nui, and get out. The Toa didn't even seem to be aware of the other Makuta's existence until they got to Karda Nui, so they wouldn't have wondered "why aren't the Makuta trying to stop us?" Also, the energy storms would have likely caused enough danger and difficulty that the Toa wouldn't be wondering afterwards if it was all a little too easy. Furthermore, a lot of the things the Makuta did to the Toa (Pohatu and Photok were almost dropped into the swamp, etc) seriously endangered the success of the Toa's mission, and by extension the Makuta's. It just seemed like the entire operation was logically pointless and risked putting the Plan in jeopardy. 


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#2 Offline Liopleurodon

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 05:56 PM

From what I know, Teridax sent some of the most powerful ones there because he knew they'd get killed and thus cease being a threat to his plans.


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#3 Offline AdaptingChaos

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 05:57 PM

Makuta Teridax feared that the other 8 Makuta, (correct me if I am wrong with the number) Antroz, Krika, Gorast, Chriox, Vamprah, Bitil, Icarax, and Mutran, would eventually be strong enough or something like that and match his power thus taking his power/control . He sent them there to get them killed in the aftermath of Mata Nui's awakening so that they wouldnt get in the way of his plan, if they chose to do so. 


Edited by AdaptingChaos, Apr 29 2013 - 05:58 PM.

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#4 Offline boston100

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 05:59 PM

no competion for ruler of the world i guess. 


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#5 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 06:09 PM

And they went along with it? Wouldn't they question the logic behind their presence?


Edited by Toa Zaz, Apr 29 2013 - 06:09 PM.

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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 06:15 PM

The Toa didn't even seem to be aware of the other Makuta's existence until they got to Karda Nui, so they wouldn't have wondered "why aren't the Makuta trying to stop us?"

This is where you're mistaken -- the Turaga had told them of the past, remember? They (and we) had known of others since the 2004-5 story and had been waiting in expectation of meeting some of them since then.

 

And even if they didn't know of others, they could have been suspicious that at least loyal servants of the Makuta wouldn't have tried. As it was, the Makuta that the Toa knew of sent actual Makuta, pretty much the worst case scenario other than "every Makuta", so it made it appear that they were serious (and Teridax was serious) about stopping the awakening. Greg confirmed this was Makuta's reasoning, so whether it was wise or not (and it would seem so, since it worked), that's why he did it.

 

The others are also correct that it was an easy way for Teridax to kill off some of his most dangerous allies (confirmed too), along the same lines as Hitler killing his own strongest supporters once he got in power, since those are the ones most likely to be able to replace him with someone else if they changed loyalties later (they were called brownshirts, so this is called the brownshirt strategy).

 

Re: they went along?-- they had no idea. It was murder -- you generally don't inform people you're going to murder them if they still have the power to get away from the murder weapon. Murder by deception. And their ability to question had been seriously hampered by their draining of inner light, making them obsessively evil and blinded by dark emotions like hatred and jealousy (Krika knew of this flaw and even tried to warn the Toa, but too little too late).

 

I was going to close this as answered but my gut tells me you may have followup questions, so instead I'll just ask, does this satisfy you? :)


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#7 Offline gunconvoy

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 06:30 PM

He wanted to get rid of the only ones who could truely oppose him.


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#8 Online ~The 1st Shadow~

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 06:42 PM

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that Teridax wanted the GS robot awakened, but at the time of his choosing. The Makuta in Karda Nui were sent to delay the Toa Nuva until the exact moment Teridax was aiming for. If done too early or too late, something could have gone wrong with his Plan, and so he needed to be sure that the Nuva would stick to his schedule. This was the reason Teridax gave the Kardakuta so that they would go along with it and not be suspicious of his secondary motive: to kill off any competition.

 

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#9 Offline Core Jalokim

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 07:13 PM

Plus, the Toa did know that there were other Makuta prior to them arriving in Karda Nui because they met Icarax while the Toa Mahri were in the pit.


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#10 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 08:43 PM

Fair enough.


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#11 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Apr 29 2013 - 08:45 PM

And they went along with it? Wouldn't they question the logic behind their presence?

Some of the Makuta were quite - gullible, if you ask me. Gorast was very loyal to Teridax, and wouldn't seem like one to oppose him or what he says. Though some of the Makuta were doubtful, like Krika and Icarax, they probably don't want to be punished. That's just my guess on this.

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#12 Offline The Lorax

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 04:20 AM

The other reason that the Makuta were in Karda Nui, other than the Toa Nuva, was that there were Av-matoran there. Any light elementals were a threat to the Makuta, especially if any of them became toa later on (just look what Takanuva could do). The Makuta wanted to corrupt these Matoran and drain their light as quickly as possible, turning threats (Matoran of light) into allies (Matoran of Shadow).

This was the reason Teridax gave to the other Makuta for their trip to Karda Nui - remember, they arrived long before the Toa Nuva, though they knew that the heroes would turn up eventually. His alterior motives in keeping the other Makuta out of the way while he executed the finl stages of his plan weren't apparent to the other Makuta because they already had a good reason to go.


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#13 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 04:33 AM

Further, Mutran might have had a scientific interest: experimenting with shadow leeches against a known enemy. He was a little crazy, so he might have gone even without the others, and it was technically his home region (Voya Nui/Southern continent). 


Edited by fishers64, Apr 30 2013 - 04:35 AM.

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#14 Offline -Jaller-

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 09:29 AM

Teridax sent them there that way there would be nobody to challenge his plans. He knew that the Makuta there would be unable to stop the Toa, so after the Toa awakened Mata Nui the energy storm killed off those remaning Makuta there as Teridax had planned. That way there were no strong Makuta left (exept for Miserix who Teridax did not know was alive) to try and stop his plans.
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#15 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 03:28 PM

Also, he might have wanted to challenge the Toa a bit so that the Toa would continue to believe that Makuta was against them waking the Great Spirit and not suspect anything.


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#16 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 06:03 PM

Quote taken from BS01, page 'Battle for the Codrex'.

Toa

 

Brotherhood of Makuta
  • Prevent the Toa from entering the Codrex.
  • Allow Teridax's Plan to be completed.

The whole idea that the Toa were ALLOWED to let the GS awaken, I really don't subscribe to. 

 

The Makuta did not want the Toa to reawaken him, or something might be done wrong and Teridax might not have won. 


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Want to know how to make a blind Toa cry?

                   

                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 06:45 PM

Quote taken from BS01, page 'Battle for the Codrex'.

Toa

 

Brotherhood of Makuta
  • Prevent the Toa from entering the Codrex.
  • Allow Teridax's Plan to be completed.

The whole idea that the Toa were ALLOWED to let the GS awaken, I really don't subscribe to. 

 

The Makuta did not want the Toa to reawaken him, or something might be done wrong and Teridax might not have won. 

Well, it's canon, and I'd think it would be obvious since Terry did take over the robot. :P Teridax winning was defined as reawakening. But only once he was in place -- re: 1st Shadow's point:

 

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that Teridax wanted the GS robot awakened, but at the time of his choosing.

I'm a little fuzzy on exactly when Makuta got into place, but he had to physically travel there, so he may have needed a delay or at least planned for the possibility he might. So the other Makuta were to delay the Toa (prevent access, at first), not completely stop them.


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#18 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 08:17 PM

The Makuta could have done it themselves, and they planned to, it seems, by what I have read on BS01.


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                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#19 Offline The Lorax

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 08:17 PM

I'm a little fuzzy on exactly when Makuta got into place, but he had to physically travel there, so he may have needed a delay or at least planned for the possibility he might. So the other Makuta were to delay the Toa (prevent access, at first), not completely stop them.

 

For his plan to succeed, Teridax had to enter and posess Mata Nui's body in the brief period of time between when the body died (and Mata Nui's spirit left) and when Matoro used the mask of life to resurrect the body (and Mata Nui's spirit tried to return). That's a few minutes of opportunity for him to enact the most important stage of the plan.

My assumption is that he saw the Toa Mahri cut the cord and Matoro start swimming for the entrance into Karda Nui, then teleported himself to Metru Nui where the core processor was. He then posessed the body and waited for Matoro to do his job. He remained there for the next couple of days and barred Mata Nui's spirit from reentering the body while the Toa and Makuta fought in Karda Nui.

Finally, the Toa Nuva awakened the body, leaving Teridax in control, and Mata Nui out in the cold. Using the energies now at his command, Teridax forced Mata Nui's spirit into the kanohi ignika and expelled voth from the universe.

 

 

The Makuta could have done it themselves, and they planned to, it seems, by what I have read on BS01.

 

No, the Makuta could not have done it themselves. It was the Toa Nuva's destiny to do that, and doing so required the use of their Toa Power (something the Makuta didn't have). Their plan was to let the Toa Nuva get in (eventually) and let them do it, until Icarax and Krika decided to abandon the plan. That's when they seriously started trying to stop the toa.


Edited by The Lorax, Apr 30 2013 - 08:22 PM.

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#20 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 08:25 PM

Actually, that's not for sure. Remember the Toa did not actually use their energies to awaken the spirit, they found a more powerful source of energy, the Ignika. So the Toa powers weren't required to reawaken the MU.


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Want to know how to make a blind Toa cry?

                   

                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#21 Offline The Lorax

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 08:40 PM

Right, but the Makuta didn't have an ignika ready to hand, so that route was closed to them. They still needed the toa.


Edited by The Lorax, Apr 30 2013 - 08:40 PM.

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#22 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 09:35 PM

They had plenty of power inside of themselves, though. Like I said, Toa energy isn't what did it, it was energy in general by the looks of it.


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Want to know how to make a blind Toa cry?

                   

                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#23 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 09:43 PM

They had plenty of power inside of themselves, though. Like I said, Toa energy isn't what did it, it was energy in general by the looks of it.

No, it most likely had to be Toa energy specifically, and more so, the Makuta couldn't have done it even if they wanted to because it wasn't their destiny. That's why Teridax designed his Plan to ensure that the Toa Nuva accomplished their mission while simultaneously accomplishing his. 


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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 10:06 PM

More likely it really did have to be the Toa's energies, but being a Legendary Mask, the Ignika could fake it. Or, also due to being a Legendary Mask, the Ignika is a trump card. Either way, without the Ignika it could still (and logically it would seem highly likely to) be that those six Toa's energies were needed. Otherwise why have six specific Toa destined to do it? Any Toa could do it.


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#25 Offline The Lorax

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Posted Apr 30 2013 - 11:05 PM

No, it most likely had to be Toa energy specifically, and more so, the Makuta couldn't have done it even if they wanted to because it wasn't their destiny. That's why Teridax designed his Plan to ensure that the Toa Nuva accomplished their mission while simultaneously accomplishing his. 

 

It wasn't specifically the ignika's destiny to do it either, but that didn't seem to matter. Maybe you could satisfy destiny by saying that the Nuva got the ingnika inside and convinced it to do the awakening? They did all the hard yards, but just used a slightly different tool to complete the final stages of their desitny.

 

Teridax designed his plan with the Toa Nuva's destiny in mind, knowing that once the Great Spirit was down, they would be desined to go and wake him up. It was more incorporating destined events into his plan than designing events to accomplish his goal.


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#26 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 01 2013 - 05:08 PM

The Makuta have at least six elements that Toa have, though. 


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Want to know how to make a blind Toa cry?

                   

                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#27 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 01 2013 - 05:34 PM

Well, again, it seems clear that only those six Toa could do it -- not just any Toa, since it was their destiny, not anyone else's. Greg said things many times to make it clear that nobody else could do it. Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I thought it was Toa Energy, not elemental energy -- as in they would become Turaga as the Toa Metru did. Makuta probably don't have that. And Makuta's versions of those powers are probably subpowers anyways, not full elemental power.

 

(Incidentally, was it six? I thought it was five plus Void.)


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#28 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 01 2013 - 06:42 PM

1) I remember from The Final Battle that the Toa Nuva were channeling their Elemental Energy into the lightstones. They might have been mistaken, however, on how to deliver their Toa Energy to the Stones, or that Toa Energy was needed in the first place. 

 

2) Channeling powers of darkness into lightstones probably won't work.

 

3) I'm suspecting the Mask of Life thing was a failsafe within a failsafe. It was an emergency procedure that ejected the Kini-Nui observational module.  I'm suspecting that the lightstones weren't needed in that particular failsafe. While Tahu seemed to mention that a "burst of power" was the reason behind the Mask's usage, that could have demonstrated his general ignorance about how the whole thing worked. 

 

The reason behind this last failsafe: what if the Toa Mata get killed/brainwashed/lose their memories from floating in canisters for a thousand years? What if Mata Nui falls asleep on a hostile planet and has to leave right now? Have a Toa get the mask and fix it. Shorter than launching those canisters. That's my theory.  

 

Most importantly, the Makuta didn't know about this last failsafe - at least, the ones Teridax sent to Karda Nui. But it might have been a contingency plan of Teridax should the Piraka succeed - letting his Skakdi friends in on the secret and having them awaken/revive Mata Nui that way. (Or sending the Makuta to defeat them.)


Edited by fishers64, May 01 2013 - 06:47 PM.

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#29 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 01 2013 - 08:48 PM

Makuta have the six Kal powers which are all elements. 


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Want to know how to make a blind Toa cry?

                   

                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#30 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted May 01 2013 - 09:05 PM

Not all the Kal powers are elements. Well technically they are, but vacuum alone isn't an element.
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