Tattorack

Anyway... I'm pretty sure the comics aren't as important to Lego as the movies. Around that time, the comics kinda became their own thing that supplemented the movies, not the other way around. If either is to be considered more "real" than the other, it may as well be the movies. If you don't feel they should be considered canon simply because you don't like them, well... that's not going to change it.

 

I'm not considering the movies none canon because I don't like them. Its because they simply aren't. They have canon elements... but they are in no way the story of that year.

Also, Micheal Bay just isn't that good at making a legitimately good story.

 

Because he preferres explosions? XD

Maybe you're right about Bionicle being better off as a series. I've had the same thought, before. However, Lego just couldn't do that back then. Computer animation wasn't as commonly used as it is nowadays, and while it may be feasible to take that road if Bionicle was still being produced NOW... back then, that was just too much to ask for. That's why, considering what little time and resources they could spare on even one production, I think Bionicle 2 turned out well. They made due with what they got.

 

They could've stayed with flash animations, but instead put as much effort and budget into the flash animation series as they would've into the movie.

The first season would obviously be not so great, but the next one.... and after that......

They don't have a circulatory system like we do (and thus no real need for organs which are used to filter blood), and I think the current theory is that it is energy based. Take in energy through receptors on the hands (by turning food particles into a kind of nutritive energy), and transfer it throughout the body as needed. This energy could be stored within a battery in the torso, or it could be distributed throughout the body. That's a question I have about Elemental Energy, too. I think it is distributed throughout the body-structure rather than stored in one place (Nuva with external Nuva Symbol battery are an exception due to excess power), but I'm not positive.

 

Well... I know that, but,... the entire torso is filled with a battery?

What if there are "organs" to filter the system? I'm sure not all sources give the exact same kind of energy, so what if there are some mechanical based organs that filter and/or convert the energy? The battery would then be situated more near the chest then (perhaps I'm bringing to much "logical"anatomy into to this, with the heart-like thing being in the chest... but then why would the heartlight not be somewher else than either?)

Um, how do we know it's not already up on the internet somewhere? The real question is if there is a ROM that isn't filled with viruses: many, if not most sites purporting to provide such services are rather questionable in that regard. A ROM dumped by a BZP member, on the other hand, would be guaranteed to be safe, if still technically illegal.

There are loads of sites that do roms without viruses (3 of wich are fully 500% safe).

Then there are torrents, since good sites allow people to comment on the file you can see on them if anybody is shouting fake.

Actually, in some cases the movies are more canon than the books.

 

This part of your post confused me. Why would them telling different stories from other sources make them non-canon? One book doesn't tell the same story as another book. (And besides, the movies you're referring to had book versions...) They are entirely consistent with the comics and books and designed to fit inside them. It was very intentional that the comics, etc. didn't spoil what would happen in the movies. All you need to do is follow all three in the right order to understand (which was admittedly much easier at the time when they were being released in order).

In any case, as others said, the Bionicle movies are canon, with only a few minor exceptions of artistic license here and there (like the "hammerspace" which was only to save money as they were on a very limited budget).

 

If that were so, what about the Morbuzak (that wasn't even mentioned)? Or the actual first encounter with the Rahkshi the Nuva had in the comics?

Also Micheal Bay should not be anywhere near Bionicle. That has been established quite firmly in previous topics, and is one of the few things that Lego can agree with us on.

 

Hmm... yeah, too many explosion I suppose...

 

We're not talking about a 3 hour movie, or a multi-parter, or an ongoing series like Game of Thrones where you... well... have the time needed to cover all that stuff. You're expecting too much for such an admittedly SMALL project. They had a story to tell, and they told what needed to be told with what little they had.

 

The Lord of the Rings trilogy was one of the biggest undertakings in cinematic history with a budget of over $200 million. It's only on that level that a whole array of different plotlines and events can be covered. You can't seriously compare a production made for a kids' toyline to that. A Bionicle movie simply doesn't get the sort of budget that a huge amount of storytelling requires.

Game of Thrones is a television series that isn't really relevant to a discussion about movies.

 

Wich is why I generally think Bionicle movies would've been a lot better off if they made a series from it.

And then made a movie.

I'm sorry, but I think this "lack of story" complaint is just silly. You can't expect them to cover all of the books that had been written leading to that, and I'm honestly glad they didn't make a generic scavenger hunt for the greats disks the main focus! Sure, it would've been cool to see the Morbuzahk, but we didn't NEED to because it... really wasn't that important in the end. Books are not movies, and acting out a book (or in this case, a few books) word for word, a good screenplay does not make. The narrative would just suffer. It's not that there's NO story, or even not enough. It's that they narrowed the scope and focus of the story down to things that mattered most and made for a tighter, more flowing narrative as a movie, and a measly 75 minute one at that. Considering what they had to work with, I think they made something that gets to the point and has great emotional weight to it, and THAT'S what makes it a cut above the rest... to me, anyway.

 

I do. Its not "the Bionicle story" without it. And whoever said they'd have to turn all the story of 2004 into just one movie? Or one really short movie?

Lord of the Rings managed to do it. Game of Thrones is doing it even better.

I didn't watch the movie now, I watched it when it came out. I was 10 years old then, and found the story very shallow and the characters quite unrelatable.

A good screenplay writer, director and producer would've been able to turn the disk hun and the Morbuzak, and perhaps the entire event of 2004, into a very exciting and story driven movie that leaves out or changes certain parts but manages to tell the entire story anyway. None of the movies are that.

 

Oof... I got quite a few...

First of The Legend of Mata Nui, it had the full range of mask powers and a whole bunch of levels to play through... but got cancelled.

The movies, none of them can be considered canon! They're all palefractions of the actualstory. With the exception of the fourth one, none of them actually follow the story in the comics and books and the "action" is terrible. (Zack Snyder or Micheal Bay should've directedand produced the movies... :C )

The Legend of Metru Nui (game), it would have been a serious upgrade over the cancelled LoMN and Bionicle: The Game. It would contained mallee combat (finally!) mask powers and advanced mobility. But no, they cancelled it and went FPS on Voya Nui!! D8<

The sudden, abrupt and inconclusive ending of Bionicle, I don't mind something ending, after all, all good things will eventually end. But give it the ending it deserves!! It was a decade of epicness and should go out with a bang that leaves everybody numb-struck and wanting to do it all over again from the beginning....... not this.... whimper....

 

I'm.... honestly kinda happy that game got cancelled. I mean, sure, back in the day, I was kind of upset, but hey, we still had the Mata Nui Online Game. Looking at the Onua stage that someone managed to piece together and upload new footage of to youtube, I'm not sure we were missing much. The music is underwhelming, the environments range from decent to downright hard to look at, and the controls looks as sluggish and clunky as can be. Anything that was wrong with the 2003 console release was wrong with this, maybe even moreso. I don't want a game just because it has the Bionicle name attached to it if it's ultimately a poorly put together game by technical standards.

 

As for the movies... I admit, most of them aren't that great. However, I do think Legends of Metru Nui is a legitimately good film. Not just a good kid's flick or toy commercial, but a truly good... film, in general. Not great, but competent. "Not enough action" isn't really an issue for me because, well, I just love the story. I didn't care for it much back in the day, but when I watch it now, as an adult, I have so much more respect for it. I mean... it's about a culture dying. Not actual LIVES being lost, but something almost as tragic. This thriving civilization crumbling away, its people losing their livelihood, forgetting their values and regressing to a tribal state, the heroes giving up their youth and powers just to wake them up and preserve whatever shred of their culture they can, 'cause they're just that committed to saving anyone they can as their world falls apart around them. That's a REALLY good story, and for the most part, it plays out really well.

Well, of course, I know the game isn't good, but they shold've just given a year or more of developement and it would've been better than Bionicle The Game for the simple fact of it containing the Kanohi hunt and actually usable powers.

And I truely don't like the movies at all. The most impressive thing about Bionicle 2 is the CGI.

Yes, story is good, but that's one of the big things missing in B2!

I have two ideas, one is used by Toa Mariki Nubai I posted a little while ago;

Mask of Bonding: Can sense somebody's location (if bonded to the person beforehand) anywhere within the user's universe/dimension (not see, but sense, meanng that she would know in what direction she'd have to go in when finding said person. The user willknow specifically where the other person is if the user was there before) Also, can instantly sense if the bonded person(s) are in danger.

The other is the Mask of Lifeforms/lifesignes: Can detect, identify and analyze lifeforms (both organic and inorganic, as long as its just alive) This Kanohi has very strong medical uses.

Oof... I got quite a few...

First of The Legend of Mata Nui, it had the full range of mask powers and a whole bunch of levels to play through... but got cancelled.

The movies, none of them can be considered canon! They're all palefractions of the actualstory. With the exception of the fourth one, none of them actually follow the story in the comics and books and the "action" is terrible. (Zack Snyder or Micheal Bay should've directedand produced the movies... :C )

The Legend of Metru Nui (game), it would have been a serious upgrade over the cancelled LoMN and Bionicle: The Game. It would contained mallee combat (finally!) mask powers and advanced mobility. But no, they cancelled it and went FPS on Voya Nui!! D8<

The sudden, abrupt and inconclusive ending of Bionicle, I don't mind something ending, after all, all good things will eventually end. But give it the ending it deserves!! It was a decade of epicness and should go out with a bang that leaves everybody numb-struck and wanting to do it all over again from the beginning....... not this.... whimper....

I don't get what the problem is with the muscles.

These are races from another universe and their muscles, of theMU inhabitants at least, are made of completely differant materials than us. It wouldn't be so strange to think they work in a totally differant way than ours do (with some characteristics that we're used to).

What I'd like to know is what the rest of the body is used for. We have a liver, kindnies, spleen, bladder and intestines filling that whole space up. All Iknow about the Toa/Matoran/etc are the lungs. What is their "heart" by the way? Could it be a largely energy based organ? That would probably give more reason to the heartlight than just being an indicator. Answering this would also determin if their circulatory system is made of energy or something else.

I found the movie online, and went to the coliseum scene: I don't actually see them swinging their arms forward to raise their arms. Maybe I missed it or maybe it was another scene?

 

Well, here it is:

Movie arena scene

the low quality, but you can see Matau having his arms raised the way I explained.

And you can have those same defensive notions without giving 9 Toa an anatomical feature unseen in any other member of the species that we know of

 

Actually, 24. That includes 12 from the Mangai, 6 from the Hagah and of course the Metru.

Thats a lot of Toa sharing the same anatomy base.

I got to play the game with minimal problems ^^

The only thing crash I got was with Exo Toa on Karda Nui;

I had killed the one inside the Codrex, and other Exo Toa started appearing. When fighting a red one the game started stuttering and then crashed.

Also, the game can be very laggy for some reason or other...

(specs:

AMD Dual Core E1-1200

AMD Radeon HD 7310

Very far from the best at anything, so it could be that caused the lag...)

The only problem I have with that design is that the outer ball of the joint doesn't really have much to do besides connect over, so it would make more sense if it was just an "L" on the inside of the upper-arm .

 

Yes it does. Perhaps not in this image that much, but for instance when they stretch their arms backwards an L shape is extremely limiting, unlike having that extra ball there:

Red is bone, blue is muscle.

Also, we don't really raise our arms like I think you're describing already... If you start with your arms at your side and raise them outwards (without turning them at all), you will reach a point where you can't lift them any more without turning something.

 

I can move my shoulder like arm like this, no problem:

A Toa Metru/Mangai cannot because there is its shoulder armour in the way. So instead of raising its arm like that ^ it rotates its arm forward to get it up.

 

I seriously doubt the canon-authenticity of those pictures...

I agree -- these clearly have to be just concept art, because the placement of the muscles seems irrelevant to actually moving anything. I remember these from back in the day too, though admittedly I forget if they were presented as "how we did it in the movie" or just early planning.

I believe it was just a not-so-good thought of concept for the anatomy, not even a proper movie concept.

I've studied the movie concepts in order to improve my way of drawing Bionicles (excluding The Legend Reborn) and it doesn't appear like it has ever been used.

The pictures may not be totally canon,being concept art, but that doesn't make them not-useful as something to look at.

 

Bonesiii, take a moment and lift your arm so that it is outstretched to one side. I'm not kidding. Do it. Now, as you hold it there ask yourself "what is supporting my shoulder in this extended position?"

 

I promise you the answer is not your shoulder joint. The contraction of the muscles in your shoulder pulls it out of neutral and then holds it up. A bone going straight across your shoulder would not allow this motion.

 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FhBRt_JxQqo/UxoKPAl0wPI/AAAAAAAAAUc/KoGV601A9k8/s576/image.jpg

 

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7AqJJmwRo0g/UxoKPNLijuI/AAAAAAAAAUY/EdLf0oZhj3A/s576/image.jpg

 

What I mean about "no support" is that I don't see an obvious way to support the shoulder going out of a neutral, down hanging position.

 

I must have missed where you said the "joints" could be on either side, but, like you said, that design would cause issues in certain directions of movement.

 

Sorry for long links, doing this on my iPad and it doesn't let me see any of the fancy edit buttons, nor can I remember the bbcode.

The only problem is when they need to raise the arm above their head.

But they did it already demonstrated that they don't raise their arms in a "conventianal" way;

I couldn't find a youtube referrance to it, but when they enter the coliseum in LoMN they raise their arms above their head by turning their arm up front-ways (like in the set) instead of raising them sideways like we do.

I seriously doubt the canon-authenticity of those pictures...

And the only time I've ever seen gear-stuff come into use is in the Toa Hordika.

Besides, Toa, Matoran, Skakdi etc are lifefroms, biomechenical or not, no lifeform in my opinion would have gears unless tampered/implanted with.

Well this is just great, you made me want to stab Metus to death all over again!

If I get this right, greengreytoran is a Matoran made by the Great Beings... before Matorans?

I really like the way you write the story. I'd say much better than the canon serials, but I suppose they tried to make those understandable for 6 year olds...

You've managed to add quite a bit of details in very few words.

 

 

I always imagined Toa and Matoran wearing removable armor like clothes over their natural, metallic skin.

That's the Agori (and the Glatorians too).

Matoran, Toa, Skakdi or anything from the MU have armour as their skin.

 

 

But you have to expect that they would sometimes put on additional armor. Gatherer is a prime example of a character that does just that. And their "skin" might be tough, but I wouldn't think it is full body armor; some of it must be removable/changeable, Even if it all was part of their "skin," it still shouldn't be that hard, with Matoran and Toa being able to figuratively swaps out limbs.

 

Hm! Yeah! Like Matoran when they need to go to war for instance. Or Toa when they're going to particularly tough missions.

 

Multiple times it has been mentioned that Toa have armor independent of their limbs. There's a scene where Onua takes off his armor in front of the Voya Nui Matoran in Dark Destiny to convince them that he's harmless. No effect on his limbs is mentioned.

Onua Nuva is wearing additional armor compared to his original Toa Mata form, though.

 

Yes... but thats more of an "upgrade" of their original armour when they got themselves dipped in E-Proto. Kinda of a mutation, so to speak.

They could very well be wearing extra armour on top of it. No harm in a little extra protection (too bad the movies never had details like that. I always felt like the movies were always extremely bare...)

I always imagined Toa and Matoran wearing removable armor like clothes over their natural, metallic skin.

That's the Agori (and the Glatorians too).

Matoran, Toa, Skakdi or anything from the MU have armour as their skin.

 

WOW, thanks for finding those pictures. It's good to have something visual like that to see.

Google is very helpful

 

I do have some problems with these representations, though. The muscle exposure is just a start: and I really don't think that so much muscles would have been exposed. Some organics I can see, particularly near joints, but look how much there is in such terribly vulnerable places. High-regen is something to consider, but Mata Nui, you have direct access to the organic layer of the chest, a high percentage of motor muscle easily open to attack...

Yes, but unlike us they're so much tougher to permanently damage; organic componants regenerate and mechenical componants can be artificially replaced or even upgraded.

And who says their muscles are nice fleshy and soft as ours? I always had the impression that they had a thick rubber texture. Wich means that any incoming blow hitting and penetrating that would lose momentum almost immediatly and not be able to damage any sensitive important metal (huh.... organs?) inside. Also, I know that Matoran or a Toa can in fact move without organic, or at least without all its organic parts. Its ust more difficult (Human example; flesh eating bug surviver lost almost half his muscle mass, but can still walk almosyt unaided).

In short, they're a lot tougher and don't need the same protection as us (besides, they're naturally covered in metal! That's more than an armidillo can brag about )

 

But the thing that really gets me regarding the movie representations as likely being only semi-accurate is the joints. It is most evident in the image of Nuju. Look at his shoulder: there ain't no way that joint should be moving like that. As far as can be seen it is only a bundle of muscle with a ring around it. Next, look at their knees: all the weight of their upper bodies is resting directly on what we are supposing to be muscle fibers/conduits.

They're sapient beings from another planet! Another galaxy.... universe even! Their anatomy and workings, whilst comparable with us, will obviously have some distinct differances.

And I believe they're physically superior in strength than Humans.

 

Comparing each photo, you notice that they each have a knee at a slightly different angle, and the muscles are not stretching along with the knee. Instead you simply get more exposed tissue as you go. Now, this could just be a limitation of the presentation, or it could be that the tubes we see are just coverings for the actual muscles.

I blame that on lazy/cheap cgi work. Make note; their weapons also "dissappear" into hammerspace when they put them away. Just being lazy or slightly cutting the budget.

 

That has occurred to me too; a muscle-specific "skin", but the weight of an overall skin isn't included. I know that our bones (at least ribs) have a sort of skin, not sure if muscles do, but that's us, of course. The only reason I hesitate to go for that is that if weight is the reason they avoid full skin, a muscle-specific skin might actually end up weighing more as it would have more total surface area. But maybe these would be very thin compared to a full skin. Or something.

Each organ and muscle segment in the Human body does have in fact its own membrane. It could very well be this is the same with Matorans and Toa.

Oh, well then I guess you deserve extra props for do so well with the pieces you had. Art by adversity, as the cliche goes.

Thank you ^^

This is actually really cool. The idea of having the engines transform into feet is genius. It looks a little awkward in jet mode with a kind of, "permanent nosedive" look, but it works. I just wish that the wings could function as arms and then this would be stellar.

 

Still, this is a nice little moc and I like it.

Yeah... I would've wanted to have arm-things fold out from it somewhere... but I didn't have enough of the right parts to do it.

Overrall this entire thing was made with a very limited amout of stuff.

I like this creation because it doesn't try too hard. You're not putting an awful lot of useless functionality; you're going for something simple and attainable. One thing I'd recommend, though, is that it could definitely use some detail all around. Grills and handlebars in the appropriate places go a long way. Maybe a couple wings as well. Who knows?

 

P.S.: don't call the endeavours of your younger brother lame. It does quite an awful lot of harm to their confidence. I have a younger brother myself, and I try as much as possible to give him decent feedback without hurting his feelings.

 

He called it lame himself and basically showed it to me for help XD (in a kind of "hey look I made this... didn't work out" sort of way).

Unfortunately I cannot add more detail, I have a very limited amount of lego to work with :/

My little brother came up with an extremely lame attempt at making a transformer.

Well... lame because at had some parts that moved but he had decided halway that it was too difficult and ust made a flying thing from it.

I saw it and immediatly noticed he intended it to transform, so with his permission I broke up hi creation to try my hand at it myself, and here it is:

Very very very large image.

Certainly not the best craetion I've ever made, but it does transform!

I really hope the muscles have some form of minor covering, maybe being put in thin tubes of some sort, because otherwise they are really very vulnerable to harm. Then again, it does makes sense since this is pretty much a Toa's "unarmored" state, where they have basic protective plating but nothing extra. The basic state would be like a human with no armor - fleshy and vulnerable, particularly when we consider that a bio-mechanical being's strength is high enough to puncture metal anyways.

Well... exposed or not, they're a lot less vulnerable than we are. First of, a Human (or an Agori in this case) cannot have muscle exposed to the elements without skin.

Their organinc parts/bits have also extreme regenerative capabilities like the Mata have shown us back in 2001 (as long as they have these "buds" or tendons still there).

So a damaged muscle is not as bad with them as it is with us (where such damage would be permenant).

 

 

I'm not against having it up for download, but that doesn't mean it's legal. (I believe I still have a copy of it somewhere.) And unfortunately, the way copyright law is, it's not about someone losing something. And unless I'm mistaken, providing a ROM of a game is very much illegal.

 

Yeah, regardless of it's status as abandonware, it'll still be illegal, but I see nothing morally wrong with it. Technically speaking, it's illegal to download ROMs/ISOs of games you DO own legitimate copies of (you are supposed to make your own backups), but with the exceptions of Wii/Gamecube/PS2 games, it's just more convenient to download them (unless you don't mind the multi-hour download times some of the bigger games offer). And I believe that emulators are technically illegal if they include any part of the original system bios.

 

Does the BMP host the ISO of the unfinished BIONICLE 2 game? Isn't that a similar field? I'm sure that's illegal too.

 

 

Unfortunately "legal" and "morally wrong" aren't synonymous though... Knowing Lego, though, I don't think it's terribly risky, they seem to not care about stuff like that.

 

And you shouldn't worry about having to post the rom at all.

Its not like it hasn't already been done tenfold (a hundredfold by now).

Admittadly I know of about 5 places to get it (but I'm not telling! >:3 )

Ok, kind late answer, but what's in the chest of the Toa Metru in LoMN looks more like ust star shaped muscle structure than gears... actually it looks a lot like star shaped muscle structure. Or at least its the "fancy" part of their armour, since I suppose gears mean that they're apart from the rest and can actually move/rotate. This looks like its just engraved or something:

Vakama

Onewa

Nuju

(Seeing the Metru with loads of their muscle exposed really helps put the uniqueness of the Nuva in perspective more than the sets do ^^ )