Tahu's Nuva symbol

[Omega12]

So what do you think happened to Tahu's nubs symbol now that he's a toa mata again? Does it just become a powerless rock? Does the fact that his symbol still exsist mean that either he or another toa is destined to become a toa nuva?

[Pupwa21]

I believe on BS01 it said that his Symbol just went dormant because his connection to it was broken during his de-evolution. So if it got stolen, He could still use his powers.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Pupwa21

[Chro]

I believe on BS01 it said that his Symbol just went dormant.

What do you mean by dormant, though? A powerless stone carving? Edited January 22, 2014 by Chro

[Pupwa21]

 

I believe on BS01 it said that his Symbol just went dormant.

What do you mean by dormant, though? A powerless stone carving?

BS01 doesn't say, But I think it still retained some of Tahus elemental powers, But he just can't access them.

[Katuko]

"Dormant" pretty much means that it is still the same symbol, but it no longer has any connection to Tahu's use of his elemental power. Like a mobile phone with a working power supply, but the owner has run out of credit and left it on a shelf. The device is functioning perfectly, but until Tahu turns Nuva again (fills up the credit ) it's not useful to him at all.

[Pupwa21]

While we're on the topic of Nuva Symbols, WHY are they made? Can't the Toa Nuva Store all of their elemental power in their bodys?

Or is their power so great, they have to store some so that dont over use their powers?

[Master Inika]

The Nuva symbols are like batteries, GregF said. Their power level is too great for them to handle it all at once, so the symbols store whatever they aren't using.

[I Exist]

So if only a part of their pôwers are stored in the symbols, why would they loose all of their powers if the symbol gets stolen ?

[Pupwa21]

So if only a part of their pôwers are stored in the symbols, why would they loose all of their powers if the symbol gets stolen ?

Maybe they store all their power in the symbol and only use EXCATLY what they need, but should their powers restore natrraly?

[NuvaTube]

This has raised a good point about the excess power. Greg's comment suggested that only the excess power (beyond a normal Toa's Level) should be stored in the Nuva Symbol, but that can't be the case because they seemed to lost all of their power when the Kal stole them. Oh, and what counts as "stolen", as in the symbol becomes unusable to the Nuva. I don't think distance can be the biggest factor, since the neither the Kal or Nuva left Mata Nui during that episode...D:

[bonesiii]

So if only a part of their pôwers are stored in the symbols, why would they loose all of their powers if the symbol gets stolen ?

Well, I (think I) disagree with the "only part" interpretation, but for sake of discussion, if it were the case, then stealing the powers in their bodies alone would still leave some power in the symbols to be available, but still cut off from them due to the ownership rule. But it seems clear it entirely replaces their powers; because their powers are too great for their bodies, they get relocated entirely into the symbol (presumably it's just a small part of their bodies that normally stores it, or a small percentage of their protodermis molecules, so that the full percentage of the symbols' substance handles it).

 

To the topic question, the Nuva Symbols were already created (by Artakha I think) before any of them became Nuva. So, Tahu's symbol is now just like it was before they became Nuva.

 

Compare it to a bicycle bought for a kid before the kid is old enough to use it. The bike can't be used until the kid reaches the stage where he's big enough and coordinated enough, etc. But later in life, the kid goes through some kind of an accident that renders him unable to use the bike, perhaps paralyzed legs. The bike doesn't really change, it just once again isn't used.

 

Oh, and what counts as "stolen", as in the symbol becomes unusable to the Nuva. I don't think distance can be the biggest factor, since the neither the Kal or Nuva left Mata Nui during that episode...D:

In case this isn't already known by everybody here, Greg said it's all about who currently "possesses" or owns the symbol; whether it's an ally of the Toa or enemy. As soon as the Kal touch it, ownership is transferred to them, and the connection to the Toa is cut off, apparently by a "you take it, you break it" principle. Then, if they set it down in the jungle somewhere while they keep looking for the entrance to where the Bahrag are, they still own it, just like a Matoran setting it on a shelf means the Matoran still owns it. But if a Matoran came walking along in the jungle, stubbed their toe on it, and realizes what it is, and picks it up, the Toa's power would come back.

 

The real question is, if he stubs his toe on it, but just assumes it was a rock and doesn't notice it, walking on, does he now own it?

[fishers64]

The real question is, if he stubs his toe on it, but just assumes it was a rock and doesn't notice it, walking on, does he now own it?

No.

 

That's like saying every brush I wade through and every rock I kick with my foot belongs to me.

[Katuko]

There are a lot of mental triggers on powers in the Matoran Universe. Being in contact with the symbol and thinking "this is mine now" is apparently what transfers ownership.

 

The symbol itself is a battery, which handles all the elemental energy the Toa's body usually would. In technical terms, it's most likely like akin to a desktop computer cabinet. If you want to add a new part to an already jam-packed cabinet, you need to move something that is already there. In the Nuva's case they've gotten stronger mental fortitude and better use of their elemental power, but this means that they have no more "space" for elemental energy. Their processor, RAM and hardrives are bigger and better, but they no longer have an internal battery.

 

Is it then still the Toa's body which handles natural recharge, or is it shunted over to the symbol as well? I'm not sure, because on one hand it makes sense for the symbol to handle all the energy, but on the other the connection is "wireless" and two-way, as shown when the Nuva pour energy into the Kal. We also saw Gali apparently recharge from water in Mask of Light.

 

Could any Toa Nuva of Fire use Tahu's symbol if they claimed ownership of it? I'd say yes, because the Kal planned to use the energy within despite not having the same elemental powers themselves. But can any Toa use any symbol as an energy source? This is a bit more ambiguous to me, for the same reason. The Kal were clearly powered up by the Nuva's energy, despite Gahlok-Kal's magnetism being fed by Gali's water energy, for example. May the symbols be sophisticated enough to generate a generic type of energy which is then converted to elemental energy later? Considering each Toa is built to create elemental energy from scratch (sort of) even without access to their element, I find it likely that their own bodies create elemental energy by converting it from more generic "food" energy or something.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

That's like saying every brush I wade through and every rock I kick with my foot belongs to me.

What if every rock was made out of an advanced molecule with a computer and sensor system, programmed to detect touch, and consider whoever touched it last to be the owner?

 

Not saying I buy that; I think you and Katuko are right on this one, but I wouldn't rule it out. I actually invented something like it for a zero-G, multi-team sport with advanced tech I came up with for my non-Bionicle fiction; the ball itself would have an advanced system to instantly change colors to designate team ownership by who last touched it, even if the players themselves are sometimes unsure on their own, like if someone sends it toward a goal and two players of two (other) opposing teams brush their fingertips on it (they might each be sure they touched it, but not know which lost contact slightly later and each might refuse to believe the other really touched it, and the player from the original team might not be convinced either touched it, to give a worst case scenario type example).

 

This would be a mental trigger, but it would just detect the mental loyalty of whoever touches the symbol, rather than requiring conscious mental belief that they own it.

 

I suppose I can come up with one useful example of where it might matter. Say a good Matoran and a Shadow Matoran both have their hands on a symbol, and are arguing over control (this actually raises another question of whether one or the other would own it while both were touching it, maybe based on intensity of willpower??? -- but that's not my point here). Suddenly the ground shakes, and they both lose their grip. Their fingers' friction on it was roughly identical, and they both slip back, while the symbol seems to stay midair between them for a split second, then falls to the ground. The ground shaking was two sides of the rock they're standing on in lava breaking, and the Toa in question is of an element that can save them by some means or another.

 

They were previously both thinking "I own it" and they both touched it. But both let go so close to the same moment they can't tell which let go last, so now they're both thinking "I don't own it!". Who owns it? A system that focuses on last touch would thus make sense. The good Matoran might have let go last, but his own fear that he might not have might make him think he doesn't own it, and say the Shadow Matoran is suicidal, and so doesn't really care. So the Toa would be unable to save the good Matoran, unless the system could tell he did indeed touch it last and saw that as more important than conscious awareness.

 

Or, someone might make an exact duplicate of it, Mission Impossible style, and steal it, leaving the duplicate on the shelf. The owner of the shelf still thinks he owns it. Later he stubs his toe on it in the jungle. Still thinking he owns it. Assumes the thing he stubbed his toe on was a rock, doesn't look down, and walks on. (For good measure, consider two versions of this, the second where he feels like he owns the rock by virtue of stubbing his toe on it, because he intends to come back and find it and move it to a shelf of his, removing it from the risk of others hitting it, but doesn't have time at the moment! ) Does that count? Again, a touch and loyalty check system might make more sense to avoid the issue.

 

But these are so unlikely it probably doesn't matter, and I do think, again, that it's more about "I think I own this, and it is in a place I own" etc. You might be able to still come up with answers to those scenarios using that. Just food for discussion in case anybody wants to try. I'm too tired to try right now, just thought I'd throw those out for fun. Not sure which is more likely to tilt things in favor of the Toa; that would probably decide the issue. Maybe neither. Maybe the system just says "if there's any doubt, the Toa owns it". Or something...

Edited January 23, 2014 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

In the case of a struggle, I find it likely that the symbol would refuse to change ownership until one of them had a clear grip on it. For example, if a Rahkshi was clutching it and the symbol had aligned itself to "Rahkshi", then it isn't enough to just place your hand on the symbol while the Rahkshi is carrying it. It would keep the Rahkshi as its owner until you pry it away.

 

Similarly, if both of you suddenly lost your grip on it due to an earthquake or something, then that would also be too ambiguous unless the detection really relies on the tiniest of differences. I find it reasonable to think that in order to transfer ownership, the system requires you to intentionally touch the symbol, alone, for a second or two. Just brushing your hand against it wouldn't be enough.

 

Interesting fact: The Toa Nuva did not really reclaim ownership of their symbols until after the Bohrok-Kal were destroyed, yet they were able to focus some energy into them. Apparently they retained some faint connection to the symbols even after the Kal stole them, but they were unable to draw power out of the symbols themselves. This makes me reconsider my earlier thought about the symbol possibly being usable by another Toa Nuva in the same way the original does. Seems like anyone can draw power out of the "battery", but it is designed to work on a very personal basis with whomever it was created for.

 

The ownership and related power access may then just be another matter of mental intent - The Bohrok-Kal wanted to suppress the energy in the symbol, so they probably hit the metaphorical "off" switch the moment they claimed ownership. Once a Toa or someone else friendly to them grab the symbol, this blockage is undone. For a Matoran, the symbol is probably advanced enough to recognize "I hope my Toa gets their power back now!" as the intent to allow the flow of elemental energy again.

 

It makes me wonder just who can shut the power on or off. The Bohrok-Kal knew what they were dealing with, but something like a Shadow Matoran from a different location may not know. If they are out to steal something and they come across a glowing symbol that looks important, would taking it trigger a power shut-down despite them having no idea what it is? If someone friendly to Toa took the symbol from the Shadow Matoran, but had no idea about its nature, would the Toa still get their power back?

 

If I were to design the Nuva symbol functions, though, I would make it work as follows:

1) Wired to a specific Toa when it comes to elemental power, but the energy stored within can be manipulated by anyone in the know-how.

2) "Ownership" is transferred based on mental detection when someone:

- intentionally touches the symbol for at least a few seconds.

- has at least a vague desire to keep it in any sense of the word.

3) Power on/off switch (and energy usage) relies on the being actually having a faint idea of what the symbol does.

[bonesiii]

If someone friendly to Toa took the symbol from the Shadow Matoran, but had no idea about its nature, would the Toa still get their power back?

I'd have to say yes to this one, just because when they were teleported to the Suva originally, the Matoran and Turaga had no idea about their nature either. Not until the Kal stole them did they realize the connection.

 

3) Power on/off switch (and energy usage) relies on the being actually having a faint idea of what the symbol does.

Maybe, but did the Matoran have even a faint idea of it when it was first given to them? Also, what purpose would that serve, if you mean that an ally of the Toa would have to have an idea of it? It would seem to only open up a major weakness in Toa Nuva, when Toa are supposed to be good guys. On the other hand, it might make sure the oblivious bad guy who picks it up for a second in curiosity then sets it back and leaves without it wouldn't cut off the power flow.

 

Incidentally, there may be evidence for your "few seconds required" idea, in the flash video interpretation of Tahu losing his fire. The Kal held the symbol actually for nearly a minute before Tahu's power was actually stolen. If that goes two ways, that might settle the "split second last touch" thing as "no help for Toa... poor Matoran dies".

 

But it occurs to me that such a requirement could have a bias against bad guys. It would make sense; a bad guy might have to hold onto it for a minute before the symbol "grudgingly" hands over ownership status to him, but a split second of contact with a good guy could also switch the loyalty back. Since the symbol is just supposed to be the replacement for the internal "battery" for the Toa (to use your term for it). I can see this stealing thing existing just as an extra contingency, should a Nuva go bad, but since Toa rarely do, it might make sense to have a bias for them (and Artakha made them, and the symbol, and probably knew they were good).

 

 

 

Interesting fact: The Toa Nuva did not really reclaim ownership of their symbols until after the Bohrok-Kal were destroyed, yet they were able to focus some energy into them. Apparently they retained some faint connection to the symbols even after the Kal stole them, but they were unable to draw power out of the symbols themselves. This makes me reconsider my earlier thought about the symbol possibly being usable by another Toa Nuva in the same way the original does. Seems like anyone can draw power out of the "battery", but it is designed to work on a very personal basis with whomever it was created for.

 

Well, keep in mind they have elemental symbols as their physical design -- hence the name. So, they could just be designed to work only with that element. So it might not be personal to Tahu, but since he was the only Nuva of Fire, it acted that way. If another Toa of Fire, like Jaller, became Nuva, maybe the symbol would work for him. But it wouldn't make sense for it to work for another element, given that the symbol's shape means "Fire".

 

 

It makes me wonder just who can shut the power on or off. The Bohrok-Kal knew what they were dealing with, but something like a Shadow Matoran from a different location may not know. If they are out to steal something and they come across a glowing symbol that looks important, would taking it trigger a power shut-down despite them having no idea what it is?

Yet another great question. Seems the symbols are surrounded by them. We never really knew much about them, but if I had to guess, I'd say Greg's answers on it seem to imply it's all about loyalty and ownership, so it would probably cut off the power flow. But then, the bias-toward-Toa theory would seem to argue against that (though I don't really have specific evidence for that idea, it just seems to make sense motivationally). I dunno.

[Katuko]

I'd have to say yes to this one, just because when they were teleported to the Suva originally, the Matoran and Turaga had no idea about their nature either. Not until the Kal stole them did they realize the connection.

That isn't really much evidence for or against, since when they first appeared they teleported directly onto the Suva with Arthaka's "factory settings", wired to each Nuva and ready to act as their elemental batteries. If my theory is correct and the symbol needs direct interaction to change states, then naturally it wouldn't matter if anyone in the village knew what the symbol was at that time - it would already be on, and "knowing what it is" would only be needed to turn it off.

 

Maybe, but did the Matoran have even a faint idea of it when it was first given to them? Also, what purpose would that serve, if you mean that an ally of the Toa would have to have an idea of it? It would seem to only open up a major weakness in Toa Nuva, when Toa are supposed to be good guys. On the other hand, it might make sure the oblivious bad guy who picks it up for a second in curiosity then sets it back and leaves without it wouldn't cut off the power flow.

Yeah, it's not so much a weakness as a fail-safe and/or "programming quirk". You do not want an enemy accidentally switching the Toa's power off just by lifting the symbol and looking quizzically at it, and at the same time there are situations where you might not want the symbol to instantly switch back on. For example, if the Toa has become infected. Barring such an outlier, though, it's just simpler to assume that if you need to physically claim the symbol to deactivate it, the symbol would work the same both for turning of and turning on -- especially since the Kal were apparently able to let go of the symbols and/or turn unconscious without the Toa instantly regaining their power.

 

Incidentally, there may be evidence for your "few seconds required" idea, in the flash video interpretation of Tahu losing his fire. The Kal held the symbol actually for nearly a minute before Tahu's power was actually stolen. If that goes two ways, that might settle the "split second last touch" thing as "no help for Toa... poor Matoran dies".

Hm, you're right. Could it be that Tahnok-Kal spent that minute trying to get a "feel" of the energy, so that he can mentally command it to stop? The Bohrok-Kal definitely knew who the Toa Nuva were, and they had already seen the Nuva cube (so they knew they needed the elemental symbols that fit on it), but it might be that the exact workings of the symbols were unknown to them until they got a chance to analyze them up-close.

 

Then again, I remember discussing the Nuva Symbols in an earlier topic, where we called the exact chronology into question. The Flash animation shows Tahu facing Tahnok-Kal, but in the comics he doesn't appear to recognize the Kal when the Toa first meet them as a group. The comic implication seemed to be that the loss of power happened a lot quicker, but since the action cuts from symbols being taken and to Toa failing we have no idea how much time actually passed between panels. Seconds to a minute doesn't matter when the Toa are far away, but the Flash animation makes it a more important plot point. (Or perhaps the power loss just took a few seconds, but the animation meant to imply that Tahu didn't notice until he tried to shoot fire).

 

But it occurs to me that such a requirement could have a bias against bad guys. It would make sense; a bad guy might have to hold onto it for a minute before the symbol "grudgingly" hands over ownership status to him, but a split second of contact with a good guy could also switch the loyalty back. Since the symbol is just supposed to be the replacement for the internal "battery" for the Toa (to use your term for it). I can see this stealing thing existing just as an extra contingency, should a Nuva go bad, but since Toa rarely do, it might make sense to have a bias for them (and Artakha made them, and the symbol, and probably knew they were good).

It seems likely that handing control over to the original owner is easier than forcefully taking it for yourself. To use another extended computer metaphor, it's like the admin coming back to take over the system after a guest has tried to log in.

 

Well, keep in mind they have elemental symbols as their physical design -- hence the name. So, they could just be designed to work only with that element. So it might not be personal to Tahu, but since he was the only Nuva of Fire, it acted that way. If another Toa of Fire, like Jaller, became Nuva, maybe the symbol would work for him. But it wouldn't make sense for it to work for another element, given that the symbol's shape means "Fire".

It does, but the symbol of fire still fed Tahnok-Kal with a type of energy which powered up (and then overloaded) his electric power. We could draw some parallels between certain powers (especially Air and Vacuum), but Stone energy becoming Plasma and Ice energy becoming Sonics is a bit more of a stretch. If Kohrak-Kal was actually fed Ice EE from Kopaka's symbol and couldn't use it, I'd expect he would freeze over sooner than he'd drop the bass.

 

IYet another great question. Seems the symbols are surrounded by them. We never really knew much about them, but if I had to guess, I'd say Greg's answers on it seem to imply it's all about loyalty and ownership, so it would probably cut off the power flow. But then, the bias-toward-Toa theory would seem to argue against that (though I don't really have specific evidence for that idea, it just seems to make sense motivationally). I dunno.

From my personal standpoint it makes sense that the symbol doesn't actually look for an "owner" so much as a mental state that will trigger its on/off switch. Arthaka is good enough at what he does to make the object look for vague ideas, but I think a sensible limit to have would be to at least exclude those who have no clue about what the symbol does, and to force someone to touch it alone for at least a few seconds to "verify".

 

So the following situations would trigger the symbol, when you hold it in your hands:

- The express intent of switching it on/off.

- The desire to own it for yourself.

- A vague idea that it belongs to a Toa who might need it.

- A "feel" of the energy flowing within.

 

While these situations would not trigger the symbol:

- Brushing against it for a moment without noticing, even if you are explicitly looking for it in a pile of junk.

- Picking it up and moving it (without wanting to actually take it), without knowing who it belongs to.

- Wrestling with another being for control over it.

- The desire to transfer power... but to the wrong (say, a non-Nuva) Toa.

 

 

Does that sound reasonable? I know it's just guesswork, but as a programmer I live to make such conditions as these.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Katuko

[Chro]

Is it possible that the Nuva symbols applied only to a specific element when used normally for the Toa Nuva, but when used in reverse, so to speak (as the Kal did), it just produces elemental energy in its basic generic form as raw power instead of fire, ice, etc.? That could explain why it powered the Kal even though they didn't share the Nuva's same elemental powers.

[bonesiii]

Katuko, most of that seems possible, yes. Sorry I don't have time right now to be more specific.

 

Chro, it seems to me the symbols make "raw energy", and transmit it. They target Toa with the element that matches their symbol, and the energy probably translates into the elemental energy inside the Toa. So, as long as the Toa has conscious, remote control over transmitting that energy to whoever's holding it (that would be the Kal in the story), which evidently has to be canon since they did it, it would work. I don't think it's really "in reverse"; the Kal were the current owners of the symbols. Normally the Toa are the owners (the highest-level owner, if an ally owns it). The Toa just activated the normal "send raw energy to the current owner" system, as I understand it.

[Master Inika]

I just realized that the Nuva's powers returned before they touched the symbols. So you don't have to physically touch them to posses them.