Anatomy Questions

Zox Tomana · March 3, 2014

WOW, thanks for finding those pictures. It's good to have something visual like that to see.

I do have some problems with these representations, though. The muscle exposure is just a start: and I really don't think that so much muscles would have been exposed. Some organics I can see, particularly near joints, but look how much there is in such terribly vulnerable places. High-regen is something to consider, but Mata Nui, you have direct access to the organic layer of the chest, a high percentage of motor muscle easily open to attack...

But the thing that really gets me regarding the movie representations as likely being only semi-accurate is the joints. It is most evident in the image of Nuju. Look at his shoulder: there ain't no way that joint should be moving like that. As far as can be seen it is only a bundle of muscle with a ring around it. Next, look at their knees: all the weight of their upper bodies is resting directly on what we are supposing to be muscle fibers/conduits. Comparing each photo, you notice that they each have a knee at a slightly different angle, and the muscles are not stretching along with the knee. Instead you simply get more exposed tissue as you go. Now, this could just be a limitation of the presentation, or it could be that the tubes we see are just coverings for the actual muscles. Either way, while this is probably a better representation of their organic nature than the MoL movie (the MoL movie has the Toa Nuva being very spindly, and not organic at all despite similar holes in their leg and arm armor), I think we can say that there is likely a blend between the two. Joints and muscles similar to this, but armor covering like the Toa Nuva and Matoran of MoL.

You know what, the MoL Torso on Kopaka is actually really good. Look at those shoulder joints, and the coverage in the chest area. Though the chest armor has to be taken with the salt of the Toa Nuva having extra plating. Beyond that, however, the form is way too spindly for there to be a blend between organic and biomechanicle.

What do y'all think?

**bonesiii** · March 3, 2014

The muscle exposure is just a start: and I really don't think that so much muscles would have been exposed. Some organics I can see, particularly near joints, but look how much there is in such terribly vulnerable places. High-regen is something to consider, but Mata Nui, you have direct access to the organic layer of the chest, a high percentage of motor muscle easily open to attack...

Yall do realize all of us have complete organic exposure other than maybe a little covered by the skull and rib cage and suchnot? Even if that is entirely canon, they have better protection than us, so...

I think what people react to is that it's muscles, not obvious skin, but this is just a matter of being alien to us, and only an emotional reaction, for the most part. Each muscle part apparently has its own skin, so it really doesn't matter much. I do think some of them may be a bit exaggerated to just clue in the viewer that they're not robots, but it's really not necessary. Quite possibly you need to save mass on armor and skin to have the muscles be strong enough to lift all the metal components, in fact.

Look at his shoulder: there ain't no way that joint should be moving like that. As far as can be seen it is only a bundle of muscle with a ring around it. Next, look at their knees: all the weight of their upper bodies is resting directly on what we are supposing to be muscle fibers/conduits.

I'm not sure about the first part, but I don't see where you're getting the part about weight resting on muscle for the knees. Are you aware they have a metal "skeleton" beneath the muscles? It's the bones that take their weight just like us. The only significant difference is that they have armor instead of skin (of debatable coverage). Not sure if I am reading this quote right; that may be why you said the first part too, but shoulder muscle anatomy doesn't happen to be a subject I know anything about off the top of my head.

Comparing each photo, you notice that they each have a knee at a slightly different angle, and the muscles are not stretching along with the knee

I'd have to review the pics to see what you mean; I don't know if in the movies you could see them flexing when they moved, but I assume it must be handled somehow that looks natural to at least the untrained eye because I don't remember anything odd about their shoulders, etc. in the movie as they moved around. Don't have time to check those things right now.

it could be that the tubes we see are just coverings for the actual muscles

That has occurred to me too; a muscle-specific "skin", but the weight of an overall skin isn't included. I know that our bones (at least ribs) have a sort of skin, not sure if muscles do, but that's us, of course. The only reason I hesitate to go for that is that if weight is the reason they avoid full skin, a muscle-specific skin might actually end up weighing more as it would have more total surface area. But maybe these would be very thin compared to a full skin. Or something.

Beyond that, however, the form [of Nuva] is way too spindly for there to be a blend between organic and biomechanicle.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last phrase here, but it does seem spindlier (word? LOL) than the Metru.

Tattorack · March 4, 2014

WOW, thanks for finding those pictures. It's good to have something visual like that to see.

Google is very helpful

I do have some problems with these representations, though. The muscle exposure is just a start: and I really don't think that so much muscles would have been exposed. Some organics I can see, particularly near joints, but look how much there is in such terribly vulnerable places. High-regen is something to consider, but Mata Nui, you have direct access to the organic layer of the chest, a high percentage of motor muscle easily open to attack...

Yes, but unlike us they're so much tougher to permanently damage; organic componants regenerate and mechenical componants can be artificially replaced or even upgraded.

And who says their muscles are nice fleshy and soft as ours? I always had the impression that they had a thick rubber texture. Wich means that any incoming blow hitting and penetrating that would lose momentum almost immediatly and not be able to damage any sensitive important metal (huh.... organs?) inside. Also, I know that Matoran or a Toa can in fact move without organic, or at least without all its organic parts. Its ust more difficult (Human example; flesh eating bug surviver lost almost half his muscle mass, but can still walk almosyt unaided).

In short, they're a lot tougher and don't need the same protection as us (besides, they're naturally covered in metal! That's more than an armidillo can brag about )

But the thing that really gets me regarding the movie representations as likely being only semi-accurate is the joints. It is most evident in the image of Nuju. Look at his shoulder: there ain't no way that joint should be moving like that. As far as can be seen it is only a bundle of muscle with a ring around it. Next, look at their knees: all the weight of their upper bodies is resting directly on what we are supposing to be muscle fibers/conduits.

They're sapient beings from another planet! Another galaxy.... universe even! Their anatomy and workings, whilst comparable with us, will obviously have some distinct differances.

And I believe they're physically superior in strength than Humans.

Comparing each photo, you notice that they each have a knee at a slightly different angle, and the muscles are not stretching along with the knee. Instead you simply get more exposed tissue as you go. Now, this could just be a limitation of the presentation, or it could be that the tubes we see are just coverings for the actual muscles.

I blame that on lazy/cheap cgi work. Make note; their weapons also "dissappear" into hammerspace when they put them away. Just being lazy or slightly cutting the budget.

That has occurred to me too; a muscle-specific "skin", but the weight of an overall skin isn't included. I know that our bones (at least ribs) have a sort of skin, not sure if muscles do, but that's us, of course. The only reason I hesitate to go for that is that if weight is the reason they avoid full skin, a muscle-specific skin might actually end up weighing more as it would have more total surface area. But maybe these would be very thin compared to a full skin. Or something.

Each organ and muscle segment in the Human body does have in fact its own membrane. It could very well be this is the same with Matorans and Toa.

Zox Tomana · March 4, 2014

The muscle exposure is just a start: and I really don't think that so much muscles would have been exposed. Some organics I can see, particularly near joints, but look how much there is in such terribly vulnerable places. High-regen is something to consider, but Mata Nui, you have direct access to the organic layer of the chest, a high percentage of motor muscle easily open to attack...
Yall do realize all of us have complete organic exposure other than maybe a little covered by the skull and rib cage and suchnot? Even if that is entirely canon, they have better protection than us, so...

That would be because we are entirely organic =P The purpose of the skin is to provide a physical and chemical barrier. Instead of a knife hitting direct on valuable muscles, it must first go through the skin and fat layers. Granted, this barrier is very easy to puncture, but imagine if something as basic as a splinter didn't have to bother with this barrier. The rigor of battle isn't as much my concern as the horrors of everyday life. Those little horrors can take a tremendous toll on our bodies' protective layers, so the exposure of our motor-muscles without a protective barrier is a big problem for me. That's what make me think that there is either greater armor protection (which isn't as big a problem regarding weight as you might think, all things considered), or that what we are seeing has be more of a flexible barrier. The only issue I have settling on "organic barrier" is how very corded it seems to be in the pictures of the Metru.

Look at his shoulder: there ain't no way that joint should be moving like that. As far as can be seen it is only a bundle of muscle with a ring around it. Next, look at their knees: all the weight of their upper bodies is resting directly on what we are supposing to be muscle fibers/conduits.
I'm not sure about the first part, but I don't see where you're getting the part about weight resting on muscle for the knees. Are you aware they have a metal "skeleton" beneath the muscles? It's the bones that take their weight just like us. The only significant difference is that they have armor instead of skin (of debatable coverage). Not sure if I am reading this quote right; that may be why you said the first part too, but shoulder muscle anatomy doesn't happen to be a subject I know anything about off the top of my head.

Well, what I'm seeing when I look at the picture is that the muscle-looking layer is going underneath the thigh-socket, based on how it looks in each picture. If that's true, then there isn't a bone-bone support going on it's bone-muscle-bone with that muscle layer taking the weight before passing it on to the next bone structure.

As to the shoulders, what I'm not seeing in the Nuju Metru image is any method of supporting the shoulder, no actual joint between the arm and torso beyond a bundle of fiber with some kind of ring. There is then a huge gap in the armor beneath this "joint" with no visible method of support. This goes against what we see in the sets, where support is built into the torso pieces, as well as what we can glean from the Kopaka image where the shoulder joint is shown to be much more robust, and even seems to be covered by a membrane like what we are supposing we might be seeing in the images of the Metru.

it could be that the tubes we see are just coverings for the actual muscles
That has occurred to me too; a muscle-specific "skin", but the weight of an overall skin isn't included. I know that our bones (at least ribs) have a sort of skin, not sure if muscles do, but that's us, of course. The only reason I hesitate to go for that is that if weight is the reason they avoid full skin, a muscle-specific skin might actually end up weighing more as it would have more total surface area. But maybe these would be very thin compared to a full skin. Or something.

Our muscles are covered in what is called fascia, which acts as a flexible and supportive covering. Based on what we see in the Metru and the MoL Nuva images, we can suppose a similar membrane exists.

Beyond that, however, the form [of Nuva] is way too spindly for there to be a blend between organic and biomechanicle.
I'm not sure what you mean by the last phrase here, but it does seem spindlier (word? LOL) than the Metru.

I mean that, looking at the arms and legs of the Nuva in images from MoL, there does not seem to be enough room within their frame for both muscle and mechanics, and very likely not muscle. Then we look at the images of the Metru and see plenty of room for a lot of muscle-looking tissue. My general aim was to point out that both portrayals tend toward two "extremes," one with more exposed muscle, and one with more mechanics (and joints that at least look better designed), and that the real anatomy might lie between: some organic exposure, but only of an overlaying membrane like we see in Kopaka's armor; a larger size like we see in the Metru to accommodate a muscle layer; with greater, though not total, armor covering to better protect the underlying organics. That help?

And who says their muscles are nice fleshy and soft as ours? I always had the impression that they had a thick rubber texture. Wich means that any incoming blow hitting and penetrating that would lose momentum almost immediatly and not be able to damage any sensitive important metal (huh.... organs?) inside. Also, I know that Matoran or a Toa can in fact move without organic, or at least without all its organic parts. Its ust more difficult (Human example; flesh eating bug surviver lost almost half his muscle mass, but can still walk almosyt unaided).
In short, they're a lot tougher and don't need the same protection as us (besides, they're naturally covered in metal! That's more than an armidillo can brag about )

That last bit, about them being naturally covered in metal: My complaint was about the areas that *aren't* being covered. The other part, about their muscles being more resistant to damage than ours is likely very true, but if we deviate from the horrors of everyday life and go into a fight, there will be extra strength behind things moving to strike them. Their being more resistant than ours will be balanced out by the added strength of sapient opponents and of general Rahi. As to them moving without their organic parts: recall that these are biomechanical beings. Their ability to move without their organic muscles may simply speak to a mechanical system that acts in tandem to the organic one. Your human survivor lost a lot of his muscle mass, but not all of it.

They're sapient beings from another planet! Another galaxy.... universe even! Their anatomy and workings, whilst comparable with us, will obviously have some distinct differances.
And I believe they're physically superior in strength than Humans.

The last part is why I think the extent of exposure in the Metru images is unlikely. Also, about different workings, see above comments to Bones. The shoulders as presented just don't see workable.

Comparing each photo, you notice that they each have a knee at a slightly different angle, and the muscles are not stretching along with the knee. Instead you simply get more exposed tissue as you go. Now, this could just be a limitation of the presentation, or it could be that the tubes we see are just coverings for the actual muscles.
I blame that on lazy/cheap cgi work. Make note; their weapons also "dissappear" into hammerspace when they put them away. Just being lazy or slightly cutting the budget.

Lazy/cheap cgi work would just be yet another reason to question just how accurate the cgi portrayals of the Metru are. Edited March 4, 2014 by Zox

fishers64 · March 4, 2014

Greg said that set representations come ahead in some instances, like the Rahaga's "propellers". I would be comfortable to invoke that rule to explain this if need be.

The set representations seem to have more armor, and armor is mentioned several times in the books, so it's possible that they have more armor than the movie depicts.

EDIT: Looked at the images. The way Nuju's chest connects to his shoulder's looks suspect, but there could easily be a slim metal rod in there IMO.

Edited March 4, 2014 by fishers64

**bonesiii** · March 4, 2014

Granted, this barrier is very easy to puncture, but imagine if something as basic as a splinter didn't have to bother with this barrier.

Right, but that really depends on what the muscle is like. It's not even normal matter; it's protodermis imitating it, so it's hard to judge that. I presume it's far more resilient (even discounting the healing, I mean).

That's what make me think that there is either greater armor protection (which isn't as big a problem regarding weight as you might think, all things considered)

Depends. Some metal can be smaller than a head but very difficult to lift; others are very lightweight. I do think it's probably more like titanium, but weight could still be a serious factor.

Anyways, I'm wondering if each muscle has skin in order for damage to one muscle cord to not automatically open up its neighbors to damage?

Well, what I'm seeing when I look at the picture is that the muscle-looking layer is going underneath the thigh-socket, based on how it looks in each picture. If that's true, then there isn't a bone-bone support going on it's bone-muscle-bone with that muscle layer taking the weight before passing it on to the next bone structure.

Hm. I'm still not following. *goes back a page to find the pics* Yeah, still not seeing what you mean here. Most of the joints have enough armor covering them up anyways that I can't get a clear view of it. I can only guess that you're talking about how the knees look like they have a ball-socket LEGO piece, with muscle inside them, and are assuming that the upper piece is part of their skeleton. It isn't; that's part of the armor. Does that help?

Where I would expect the 'actual' to deviate from the movie form is that such close matches to LEGO pieces probably wouldn't be there. I especially suspect they would seem rounder without right-angle edges, but could be.

what I'm not seeing in the Nuju Metru image is any method of supporting the shoulder, no actual joint between the arm and torso

Are you talking about where the muscled "bridge" meets the inner-upper side of the arm? I would agree there's likely more of an open gap there as it seems a little too tight a fit for much mobility, but I'd have to see it in action again to be sure. These are the movie forms, after all, and those are designed for mobility. But this is a mobility problem, not a support problem, so I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

There is then a huge gap in the armor beneath this "joint" with no visible method of support. This goes against what we see in the sets, where support is built into the torso pieces

Support of what? And, gap in the torso armor? I assume you mean that given that you said torso for the set. What support are you saying is in the set plastic that isn't in the canon form? Apparently we're suffering from miscommunication problems here. Again, just in case you missed it, they are entirely supported internally by a metal skeleton essentially like ours, except that unlike ours it's metal, and unlike the metallic Agori skeletons it isn't grown organically at all, but it does perform the support functions, if I'm understanding what you mean by "support" (as in holding the weight up?).

But in general, please keep in mind that the sets are meant to be representations. I wouldn't think of the movie forms as "going against" the sets per se. The sets symbolize what we see in the movie; their lack of visible organic pieces is not meant to be establishing something to contradict but just part of the limitation of plastic (and wanting to have LEGO pieces that are more flexible in use rather than limited to looking biomechanical, for when they wanted to make robots, etc.).

as well as what we can glean from the Kopaka image where the shoulder joint is shown to be much more robust, and even seems to be covered by a membrane like what we are supposing we might be seeing in the images of the Metru.

Honestly, the Kopaka image is much harder to understand than the Metru. That is probably part of why they made those changes; they likely saw it as an improvement for that reason. How muscle is involved in that shoulder joint I cannot make out. It sounds like you're saying an organic membrane like skin goes over them, but all I'm seeing is metal.

But the lighting is very unclear in that image so I just can't tell. Also, the color of the fleshy-looking parts and the silvery metal on Kopaka there looks almost identical, so I can't tell which is meant to be which, but I think the part ringing the "bridge" between torso and shoulder joint is metal on Kopaka, if that's what you're saying. This may or may not be a Nuva-exclusive thing (or it could be a Mata thing, dropped in later "models" of Toa perhaps for maybe efficiency reasons... but we're building theory on theory now so we might be on the wrong track).

I generally just avoid these issues and just say "the joints work. Somehow." I've always found the joints to be a confusing and complex issue, which is interesting, but it's hard to be sure that there's any problem with either version. Unless someone actually tries to make one, it's hard to tell, beyond the basic observation that our own system is bone surrounded by muscle, surrounded by protection (skin, but we could also for example wear Knight armor, and imagine the skin wasn't there, etc.).

I mean that, looking at the arms and legs of the Nuva in images from MoL, there does not seem to be enough room within their frame for both muscle and mechanics, and very likely not muscle.

Nevertheless, it is canon that there are, and the movie forms did attempt to capture that. The idea that there isn't enough room depends on the assumption that muscles have to be a certain thickness to perform well enough for the (metal) weight involved, and I can see why you might think that, but it's possible that the protodermic muscles are just stronger per unit thickness than ours. That may be just as likely as the idea that the actual would be thicker/rounder/etc. in the Nuva.

But most likely the move to Metru form later was meant to imply that the Nuva actual would be more like the Metru. Who knows, though; no real reason there couldn't be a variety of specific ways it's handled in the Matoran Universe.

both portrayals tend toward two "extremes," one with more exposed muscle, and one with more mechanics (and joints that at least look better designed), and that the real anatomy might lie between

Agreed. With the clarification of "might". (But might not.)

Dralcax · March 4, 2014

I don't think the muscle is exposed at all, really. I think the visible organics are just oddly-textured skin over the more realistic muscles. The texture is probably a result of being reinforced by some type of flexible organic protodermis to make it stronger and more durable than human skin. This reinforced organic "skin" is weaker than inorganic armor, but it's flexible and soft, which allows it to both bend at joints and protect muscle tissue from being damaged by the armor.

Pohatu: Uniter of Stone · March 5, 2014

I always imagined Toa and Matoran wearing removable armor like clothes over their natural, metallic skin.

Edited March 5, 2014 by RahkshiToa88

Tattorack · March 5, 2014

I always imagined Toa and Matoran wearing removable armor like clothes over their natural, metallic skin.

That's the Agori (and the Glatorians too).

Matoran, Toa, Skakdi or anything from the MU have armour as their skin.

**V-N** · March 5, 2014

I always imagined Toa and Matoran wearing removable armor like clothes over their natural, metallic skin.
That's the Agori (and the Glatorians too).
Matoran, Toa, Skakdi or anything from the MU have armour as their skin.

But you have to expect that they would sometimes put on additional armor. Gatherer is a prime example of a character that does just that. And their "skin" might be tough, but I wouldn't think it is full body armor; some of it must be removable/changeable, Even if it all was part of their "skin," it still shouldn't be that hard, with Matoran and Toa being able to figuratively swaps out limbs.

Edited March 5, 2014 by V-N

fishers64 · March 5, 2014

Multiple times it has been mentioned that Toa have armor independent of their limbs. There's a scene where Onua takes off his armor in front of the Voya Nui Matoran in Dark Destiny to convince them that he's harmless. No effect on his limbs is mentioned.

**Katuko** · March 5, 2014

Multiple times it has been mentioned that Toa have armor independent of their limbs. There's a scene where Onua takes off his armor in front of the Voya Nui Matoran in Dark Destiny to convince them that he's harmless. No effect on his limbs is mentioned.

Onua Nuva is wearing additional armor compared to his original Toa Mata form, though.

Tattorack · March 6, 2014

I always imagined Toa and Matoran wearing removable armor like clothes over their natural, metallic skin.
That's the Agori (and the Glatorians too).
Matoran, Toa, Skakdi or anything from the MU have armour as their skin.

But you have to expect that they would sometimes put on additional armor. Gatherer is a prime example of a character that does just that. And their "skin" might be tough, but I wouldn't think it is full body armor; some of it must be removable/changeable, Even if it all was part of their "skin," it still shouldn't be that hard, with Matoran and Toa being able to figuratively swaps out limbs.

Hm! Yeah! Like Matoran when they need to go to war for instance. Or Toa when they're going to particularly tough missions.

Multiple times it has been mentioned that Toa have armor independent of their limbs. There's a scene where Onua takes off his armor in front of the Voya Nui Matoran in Dark Destiny to convince them that he's harmless. No effect on his limbs is mentioned.
Onua Nuva is wearing additional armor compared to his original Toa Mata form, though.

Yes... but thats more of an "upgrade" of their original armour when they got themselves dipped in E-Proto. Kinda of a mutation, so to speak.

They could very well be wearing extra armour on top of it. No harm in a little extra protection (too bad the movies never had details like that. I always felt like the movies were always extremely bare...)

fishers64 · March 6, 2014

It's also mentioned in conjunction with the Metru as well. What comes to mind is that scene from Time Trap where Sentrakh was turning Vakama's muscles & organs to stone.

Also Nuva-izing gives an increase in power as well as armor, so I don't think that there would be too much of a difference in whether it can be removed or not. Point is that it does exist.

**Katuko** · March 6, 2014

It's also mentioned in conjunction with the Metru as well. What comes to mind is that scene from Time Trap where Sentrakh was turning Vakama's muscles & organs to stone.

Also Nuva-izing gives an increase in power as well as armor, so I don't think that there would be too much of a difference in whether it can be removed or not. Point is that it does exist.

I'm just thinking that the primary shell - such as the Toa Mata's torsos - would be more integrated with their form than their extra Nuva padding. If they are 85% mechanical with organic lungs, it makes me think of some sort of Grievous-style setup, where removing the chest plate would actually expose the inner organs. This is also because both the sets and the movies how Toa with a rather thin stomach area, and the concept art (whilst probably not entirely canon) marks the Nuva armor pieces as "shell", with most other parts (including the base body) being marked "skeleton". "Muscles" are drawn on arms, legs, chest and neck.

Reference 1: http://biomediaproject.com/bmp/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/MoL_Concept_Art_Toa_Nuva_Anatomy_2.png

Reference 2: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120221104913/bioniclereviews/images/2/29/MoL_Concept_Art_Toa_Nuva_Anatomy_1.png

I dunno, I've just always thought of the base form of a Toa as being the intended state of armor/skin, with removing a piece much akin to unscrewing a piece from a robot or computer (or opening a human for surgery): It may be possible, but you'll want to put hings right back afterwards because it removes "skin" and exposes more vulnerable internal organs.

Zox Tomana · March 6, 2014

I dunno, I've just always thought of the base form of a Toa as being the intended state of armor/skin, with removing a piece much akin to unscrewing a piece from a robot or computer (or opening a human for surgery): It may be possible, but you'll want to put hings right back afterwards because it removes "skin" and exposes more vulnerable internal organs.

That's what I've understood as well. Plus we have the story of the rebuilding to show us that their metal/mechanical parts are able to be taken apart...rebuilt... So the MU inhabitants apparently can move things around to some extent. Now there's a medical specialty!

Btw, does anyone else who looks at the pictures Katuko just brought up see what I'm seeing? I see muscles attached to joints that may not have actual connections across like ours do. Looking at how the muscles go right across the knees, however, the parts showing the elbows, shoulders, and hips may just be simplification for the design of the movie, or it may be that those joints have a gear system in them.

Bones, these pictures better display what I meant with Kopaka's shoulder. See how it is shown to be at least somewhat a ball-joint? The pictures of the Metru just have a bundle of muscle going across while the Nuva are portrayed with a substantial joint built onto the skeleton. As to what I meant about the gap, I wasn't referring to the gap between the torso and the arm. Look where the Metru's shoulder 'joint' exits from the torso. Below this on the torso's housing there is a large black hole with nothing else coming out to support the bundle-and-ring structure.

Tattorack · March 7, 2014

I seriously doubt the canon-authenticity of those pictures...

And the only time I've ever seen gear-stuff come into use is in the Toa Hordika.

Besides, Toa, Matoran, Skakdi etc are lifefroms, biomechenical or not, no lifeform in my opinion would have gears unless tampered/implanted with.

**bonesiii** · March 7, 2014

I seriously doubt the canon-authenticity of those pictures...

I agree -- these clearly have to be just concept art, because the placement of the muscles seems irrelevant to actually moving anything. I remember these from back in the day too, though admittedly I forget if they were presented as "how we did it in the movie" or just early planning.

The pictures of the Metru just have a bundle of muscle going across while the Nuva are portrayed with a substantial joint built onto the skeleton. As to what I meant about the gap, I wasn't referring to the gap between the torso and the arm. Look where the Metru's shoulder 'joint' exits from the torso. Below this on the torso's housing there is a large black hole with nothing else coming out to support the bundle-and-ring structure.

Do you mean no armor on top of it to protect it? Again, I want to make sure you're not missing what I'm telling you. Inside the muscles are unseen metal "bones". That is the support. That's canon fact. Okay? I don't see how you could look at the outside and say there's nothing to support it, when we know the support is on the inside. (Just like us, in this case, albeit lacking skin.)

As for the joint, again, the joints are on either side of the "bridge" piece we're talking about (the connection from torso to upper arm), protected under armor. Actually the only really confusing part is how with that shoulder design they could ever lift their arms up over their heads like we can. I don't remember any limited mobility in the movie but again I don't have time to review now. I suggest anyone who is interested in this make that their next priority.

Zox Tomana · March 7, 2014

The pictures may not be totally canon,being concept art, but that doesn't make them not-useful as something to look at.

Bonesiii, take a moment and lift your arm so that it is outstretched to one side. I'm not kidding. Do it. Now, as you hold it there ask yourself "what is supporting my shoulder in this extended position?"

I promise you the answer is not your shoulder joint. The contraction of the muscles in your shoulder pulls it out of neutral and then holds it up. A bone going straight across your shoulder would not allow this motion.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FhBRt_JxQqo/UxoKPAl0wPI/AAAAAAAAAUc/KoGV601A9k8/s576/image.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7AqJJmwRo0g/UxoKPNLijuI/AAAAAAAAAUY/EdLf0oZhj3A/s576/image.jpg

What I mean about "no support" is that I don't see an obvious way to support the shoulder going out of a neutral, down hanging position.

I must have missed where you said the "joints" could be on either side, but, like you said, that design would cause issues in certain directions of movement.

Sorry for long links, doing this on my iPad and it doesn't let me see any of the fancy edit buttons, nor can I remember the bbcode.

FallenCor · March 7, 2014

Keep in mind that even the character designs of the first three movies were supposed to be fairly set-accurate, so of course it's going to look like somebody stuffed a Gen'Dai (Star Wars race comprised entirely of muscle) into one of our beloved toys. The movies were also indies, if you think about, and weren't exactly top-of-the-line CG. The filmmakers worked with what they had. *shrug*

As for the leg/knee thing, I assume y'all are referring to the lack of any sort of ligament between the femur and the tibia? It kinda does look like the designers just stuffed the "muscle" all the way up there, and it's weirding me out just thinking about it. X'D But again, the films weren't exactly Academy Award-winning quality, so what do you expect?

Tattorack · March 7, 2014

I seriously doubt the canon-authenticity of those pictures...
I agree -- these clearly have to be just concept art, because the placement of the muscles seems irrelevant to actually moving anything. I remember these from back in the day too, though admittedly I forget if they were presented as "how we did it in the movie" or just early planning.

I believe it was just a not-so-good thought of concept for the anatomy, not even a proper movie concept.

I've studied the movie concepts in order to improve my way of drawing Bionicles (excluding The Legend Reborn) and it doesn't appear like it has ever been used.

The pictures may not be totally canon,being concept art, but that doesn't make them not-useful as something to look at.

Bonesiii, take a moment and lift your arm so that it is outstretched to one side. I'm not kidding. Do it. Now, as you hold it there ask yourself "what is supporting my shoulder in this extended position?"

I promise you the answer is not your shoulder joint. The contraction of the muscles in your shoulder pulls it out of neutral and then holds it up. A bone going straight across your shoulder would not allow this motion.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FhBRt_JxQqo/UxoKPAl0wPI/AAAAAAAAAUc/KoGV601A9k8/s576/image.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7AqJJmwRo0g/UxoKPNLijuI/AAAAAAAAAUY/EdLf0oZhj3A/s576/image.jpg

What I mean about "no support" is that I don't see an obvious way to support the shoulder going out of a neutral, down hanging position.

I must have missed where you said the "joints" could be on either side, but, like you said, that design would cause issues in certain directions of movement.

Sorry for long links, doing this on my iPad and it doesn't let me see any of the fancy edit buttons, nor can I remember the bbcode.

bone_concept_example_by_tattorack-d79a4a

The only problem is when they need to raise the arm above their head.

But they did it already demonstrated that they don't raise their arms in a "conventianal" way;

I couldn't find a youtube referrance to it, but when they enter the coliseum in LoMN they raise their arms above their head by turning their arm up front-ways (like in the set) instead of raising them sideways like we do.

**bonesiii** · March 7, 2014

I think I see now, Zox -- by "support" you didn't mean skeletal structure but what muscle would lift the arm? I still don't see why the muscles on the top side of the bridge wouldn't be responsible for that. That's how it works for us, albeit with a different design (I'm not talking biomechanical versus organic but the muscles connect in a different place). The muscles on the top contracting would pull the upper inward side of the arm so that it turns over the joint (outer side of bridge, plus if the bridge itself has a joint comparable to the collarbone being able to lift the shoulder higher on the torso, then the bridge itself could lift a little, albeit not enough to lift arms straight up like us). Thus making the rest of the arm angle up.

Even by this definition, the only problem I see is not one of "support" but of the shoulder armor getting in the way of lifting arms directly up in the normal way. In the analogy you gave, the muscle going over the joint is not a necessary design to lift the arm; the Toa Metru design essentially connects to a lever which performs the "over the shoulder" action. (The lever itself gets in the way of total lift-up.)

If I understood you right.

And again, it may very well be going over the shoulder on the inside, if the hole there is bigger than shown, as I figure. In that case, you could hypothetically remove the over-shoulder armor to enable more humanlike full ranges of motion.

I couldn't find a youtube referrance to it, but when they enter the coliseum in LoMN they raise their arms above their head by turning their arm up front-ways (like in the set) instead of raising them sideways like we do.

Yeah, I figured that had to be it. And that would presumably be part of what the 'ring' enables -- something our arms cannot do; the actual base of the muscles spinning rather than mere muscles twisting.

Edited March 7, 2014 by bonesiii

Zox Tomana · March 8, 2014

The only problem is when they need to raise the arm above their head.
But they did it already demonstrated that they don't raise their arms in a "conventianal" way;
I couldn't find a youtube referrance to it, but when they enter the coliseum in LoMN they raise their arms above their head by turning their arm up front-ways (like in the set) instead of raising them sideways like we do.

The only problem I have with that design is that the outer ball of the joint doesn't really have much to do besides connect over, so it would make more sense if it was just an "L" on the inside of the upper-arm (is there another word for that besides brachium?). Doing that, the armor bit above would actually act like the acromion-clavicle structure in our joint. The second issue I have is that it gives the bulk muscles we see in the Onewa and Vakama pictures (seen through the holes in the shell for the upper arm) nothing to do. They simply sit there. They're too high up to really do much in the way of moving the lower arm. That's better taken care of by the muscles we see exposed on the inner part of Nuju's right, upper arm. This issue, for me, comes back to that if that little bundle is capable of causing the proper range of motion: Bonsiii's suggestion goes closer to what I'd suspect is going on in all the joints: some gear/piston mechanism acting in concert with the muscles to bring about movement.

Also, we don't really raise our arms like I think you're describing already... If you start with your arms at your side and raise them outwards (without turning them at all), you will reach a point where you can't lift them any more without turning something. This is an inherent property of the way the shoulder is built. Look at our joint and you'll see we have similar restrictions on movement: Anatomy is Fun! (Note Kopaka's Shoulder; Unedited photo.) In order to actually raise our arms we have to make similar motions where we either go forward, or the bone must rotate such that the outer protrusion isn't pressing against the Acromion. Really, looking at either movie design there is plenty of room for the range of motion: I just have issues as to how.

Now, for the how, I really do like the typical ball-joint--without the extended "L" or second ball like we're supposing in the movies--better for a few reasons: A. It is simpler, and while a biomechanical lifeform is going to be fairly complicated there isn't a reason to introduce complexities where they can be eliminated. B. It more closely resembles what we see in most of the sets. The Toa Metru sets are just poorly designed when it comes to replicating human motion. C. With a simpler ball-joint, you can allow for the muscles to go over the top of the shoulder, which will lend better leverage for those muscles when it comes to actually moving the arm. The armor on top "getting in the way" may simply be a supplement to the structure underneath, or we can allow for some movement in the exoskeleton so that pieces may slide over each other at the joints: like a real suit of armor. A person in a suit of armor that is properly made isn't really all that restricted, it couldn't be made restrictive or you'd be defeating the purpose of wearing armor by making yourself unable to properly defend yourself.

Tattorack · March 8, 2014

The only problem I have with that design is that the outer ball of the joint doesn't really have much to do besides connect over, so it would make more sense if it was just an "L" on the inside of the upper-arm .

Yes it does. Perhaps not in this image that much, but for instance when they stretch their arms backwards an L shape is extremely limiting, unlike having that extra ball there:

Red is bone, blue is muscle.

Also, we don't really raise our arms like I think you're describing already... If you start with your arms at your side and raise them outwards (without turning them at all), you will reach a point where you can't lift them any more without turning something.

I can move my shoulder like arm like this, no problem:

A Toa Metru/Mangai cannot because there is its shoulder armour in the way. So instead of raising its arm like that ^ it rotates its arm forward to get it up.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Tattorack

Zox Tomana · March 8, 2014

But try and get your arm straight vertical using that same angle of motion. And their armor is portrayed with a cut-out portion to assist with that kind of motion.

I found the movie online, and went to the coliseum scene: I don't actually see them swinging their arms forward to raise their arms. Maybe I missed it or maybe it was another scene? Either way, both we and they have to rotate the shoulder front-back to get our arms straight up over our heads, which is what I thought you meant.

Alright, you've convinced me on the second ball for the Metru, now convince me on why we should base our thoughts about general anatomy on movies that are trying to be set-accurate on possibly the worst designed sets as far as mobility in the shoulder goes. That bundle of muscle is probably trying to represent the blue-pins used to connect the shoulders, and those allow for no motion except that of front-back. The simpler ball-socket is preferred in just about all other sets and animated portrayals, and later sets moved away from the more restricted Nuva/Mata and Metru sets to allow for more realistic movement.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Zox

**bonesiii** · March 8, 2014

now convince me on why we should base our thoughts about general anatomy on movies that are trying to be set-accurate on possibly the worst designed sets as far as mobility in the shoulder goes.

This question is really "Why do the Toa Metru (and some others) have restrictive shoulder armor designs?" Or possibly "restrictive shoulder designs" in general.

The obvious reason would be presumably to make it harder to attack the shoulder organics from more angles -- so defensive reasons. As long as they were accustomed to twisting their arm more than we would (or spinning the base), quickly and without having to slow down to consciously think about it (and the transformations probably come with the addition of instincts for this kind of thing; they don't have to learn how to walk all over again for example), it shouldn't be much of a problem.

But the movies did have some significant deviations from the set designs. Plus, like I pointed out earlier, they had to actually show them moving freely, as it's animation, not just art. If these were insurmountable problems or had no upsides to make them not worth having the design, you'd think the movie would have had these be deviations too.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter -- you can headcanon it to be more in line with later versions of shoulders if you prefer. But S&T is for canon, and we were told that movie form and set form both are intended to be reasonably close to the imagined "actual" canon form. So basically that comes with the territory.

Zox Tomana · March 9, 2014

now convince me on why we should base our thoughts about general anatomy on movies that are trying to be set-accurate on possibly the worst designed sets as far as mobility in the shoulder goes.
This question is really "Why do the Toa Metru (and some others) have restrictive shoulder armor designs?" Or possibly "restrictive shoulder designs" in general.

The obvious reason would be presumably to make it harder to attack the shoulder organics from more angles -- so defensive reasons.

And you can have those same defensive notions without giving 9 Toa an anatomical feature unseen in any other member of the species that we know of. Instead of introducing the assumptions two unseen ball-joints, a spinning base we have no foundation for that I know of, new programming for this new joint design, and leaving a hunk of muscle in the top of their shoulders to contribute to...something...they just aren't in a very good position to contribute to much... we could just assume the movie is basing it's design off the sets (since the movies are partly huge ads) and are trying to compensate while retaining something that looks like the sets. If they had actually done the more efficient shoulders you see everywhere else, the Toa may have looked fairly different from their set form. So we assume something that is already pretty true to an extent, and then just say "Alright, how does the shoulder armor get out of the way?" Answer: It is exoskeleton that is not inherently doing anything supportive but protecting what is underneath. It is okay if it gives in one direction to allow for ease of motion. The joint is simpler, still allows for motion, and isn't different from every other member of the Matoran/Toa/Turaga species that we've seen.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter -- you can headcanon it to be more in line with later versions of shoulders if you prefer. But S&T is for canon, and we were told that movie form and set form both are intended to be reasonably close to the imagined "actual" canon form. So basically that comes with the territory.

I had to take out the smile so it didn't read so condescendingly, as I highly doubt you intended it to read as such.

Yes, we were told that. But how unreasonable does it need to be to get out of "reasonably close"? Again, 7 individuals who are actually seen in this movie, plus two others actually made in that same set-type (Iruini and Norik) are assumed to have a novel shoulder design because the set doesn't allow for realistic movement and the movie makers had to compensate for that needed movement while retaining a set-like appearance. We could make all those assumptions and you could headcanon it that way, but S&T is for canon and the bulk of canon depictions lean in a direction much more analogous to familiar anatomy regarding joint structure.

FallenCor · March 9, 2014

I think at this rate we can just chalk it up to a poor design choice for the toy, plus filmmakers with a low budget and a limited range with which to play with said designs. Ridiculous combo. I love the movies, but personally, I would have gone for motion-capture and some designs more along the lines of what I did with that Takanuva drawing. Maybe not even that close to the original toys. But, Lego sells toys first and foremost, so I kind of doubt they would ever allow anyone that much liberty with the character designs for any official work. The only way they'll prove me wrong is by giving this supposed "live-action" Bionicle movie the green light...

Tattorack · March 9, 2014

I found the movie online, and went to the coliseum scene: I don't actually see them swinging their arms forward to raise their arms. Maybe I missed it or maybe it was another scene?

Well, here it is:

Movie arena scene

the low quality, but you can see Matau having his arms raised the way I explained.

And you can have those same defensive notions without giving 9 Toa an anatomical feature unseen in any other member of the species that we know of

Actually, 24. That includes 12 from the Mangai, 6 from the Hagah and of course the Metru.

Thats a lot of Toa sharing the same anatomy base.

Edited March 9, 2014 by bonesiii
Careful with language use... -bones

Zox Tomana · March 9, 2014

I found the movie online, and went to the coliseum scene: I don't actually see them swinging their arms forward to raise their arms. Maybe I missed it or maybe it was another scene?
Well, here it is:
Movie arena scene
the low quality, but you can see Matau having his arms raised the way I explained.
And you can have those same defensive notions without giving 9 Toa an anatomical feature unseen in any other member of the species that we know of
Actually, 24. That includes 12 from the Mangai, 6 from the Hagah and of course the Metru.
Thats a lot of Toa sharing the same anatomy base.

There isn't really a guarantee that the rest of the Eleven Mangai and the Hagah follow the same design. The Mangai were collected from various parts of the universe and then elected to stay in Metru Nui after fighting the Kanohi Dragon. The Hagah were similarly selected from different Toa Teams to serve as Teridax's personal guard.

Edit: Duplicated bones' edit into the quoted material.

-Wind-

Edited March 9, 2014 by -Windrider-

ALVIS · March 9, 2014

Actually, I seem to recall Greg stating that the Toa Metru design was probably the "default" shape of Toa. That would mean a lot more than 24 Toa have/had that restriction.

**bonesiii** · March 9, 2014

Instead of introducing the assumptions two unseen ball-joints

It's not an assumption; it's a very reasonable theory that is certainly implied by the muscles being there.

Also, though, be careful in assuming the joints are "really" ball-joints. It does make sense in this case given the "all-around" muscles, but balljoints may have problems being close to muscles. Our own skeletons have "almost ball-joints" in a few places, of course, but not with metal. I have often wondered if those are meant only to be a set thing (after all, the sets don't worry about not pinching muscles ), and the actual joint design would be something else. But this is mostly irrelevant here; the point is that there is a joint implied by the presence of the muscles.

You may also have missed that our own arm-mount designs have two joints, not just one. You can raise up your shoulders by lifting the collarbone (the bridge -- just doesn't extend out as much, but these are aliens, no reason it couldn't, plus they're artificial and biomech etc.). You seem to think having two joints there is strange but it isn't; the Toa Metru actually seem more like us than the other designs in that way. It's just made more obvious in a way that fits a biomechanical being more than us.

a spinning base we have no foundation for that I know of

? I mentioned that the "ring" part on the "bridge" between arm and torso is the evidence for that. Given the shoulder-lever getting-in-the-way problem, and given that they're biomechanical (and mechanical things use spinning functions all the time), we would expect to see a ring there that could enable spinning, and lo and behold, there is. So the best theory would seem to be that it's there to facilitate spinning to enable the arms to go all the way up -- again, things the animators would have had to think about because they had to actually show it happening somehow.

This would make Toa have other advantages over us, notice. That's why robot designs in real life tend to use spinning functions on limbs. Our musculature makes it not work, which gives us a disadvantage. It's one of the main things I would expect to see on a biomechanical being, actually, regardless of if there are other problems it could overcome. For example, when you see Toa spinning their tools at mad speeds, that can be done by robots, but not by humans without cheating like a baton twirler (continual passing from one grip to another between the fingers, which continually risks missing and dropping the tool), that is clear proof that they already have such spinning bases for their wrists. Not hard to imagine they might for shoulders too.

new programming for this new joint design

Again this is proven. If new mental programming necessary for a Toa to be able to control his body instinctively were not present, then the Toa Metru would have had to learn to walk again, somewhat like a baby. Therefore, no matter what the design, the moves needed to easily overcome its downsides must be automatically given to them (though this wouldn't apply for use of specific tools well, like Matau lol). That's not our imagination; that's a logical necessity already. Having much longer legs and arms, more mass, etc. would not be so easy to adapt to without it. Just buying a shoe in recent years with slightly thicker soles to prevent it wearing out as fast forced me to almost totally have to re-learn how to walk. In effect my legs were too long. And people who suffer accidents that interfere with their mobility have to re-learn etc. (Plus as kids age they had to constantly relearn too though that wasn't as noticeable of course.)

we could just assume the movie is basing it's design off the sets

Again, it is, and both are meant to be very close to "the actual canon." Think of it like a vote. With the Rahaga's method of flight, the movie and set clearly disagree. The way to tell the diff that we were given is to look at the set version as closer. So, we disregard attached rotors and go for Rhotuka launchers that they can keep connected to a spinning Rhotuka to act like helicopter blades, etc. There the movie and set disagree, so the votes alone would cancel each other out. We disregard the set parts of the Rhotuka that are clearly just because they're plastic; the Rhotuka isn't solid energy that's shining in the set form. But the basic shape is confirmed.

Here, both the movie and set largely agree. The arm doesn't actually only rotate; that's clearly a set thing, but the shoulder armor should look like that. To say it doesn't means we'd have to invent something for which there is no evidence. That's two votes for the Toa Metru design, so if anything we should accept it all the more here.

then just say "Alright, how does the shoulder armor get out of the way?" Answer: It is exoskeleton that is not inherently doing anything supportive but protecting what is underneath.

We have already agreed on that. That was kinda my whole point originally. I don't see why the things you're apparently disagreeing with (two ball joints, etc.) are mutually exclusive with that.

But you know, just saying it's exoskeleton doesn't really answer how the armor gets out of the way. That just says what it is; the answer to how it gets out of the way has to be that the arm's base rotates. No? Whether it's a literal lever the muscles are attached to or just exoskeleton that gets in the way, the arm still has to rotate to get around the problem.

Also, the lever design may be more efficient, considering something is blocking there anyways. Less distance the muscles need to cross. I kind of lean toward that, but somewhere or another there's something underneath you aren't seeing, yes (just like us).

Edited March 9, 2014 by bonesiii

Zox Tomana · March 9, 2014

a spinning base we have no foundation for that I know of
? I mentioned that the "ring" part on the "bridge" between arm and torso is the evidence for that. Given the shoulder-lever getting-in-the-way problem, and given that they're biomechanical (and mechanical things use spinning functions all the time), we would expect to see a ring there that could enable spinning, and lo and behold, there is. So the best theory would seem to be that it's there to facilitate spinning to enable the arms to go all the way up -- again, things the animators would have had to think about because they had to actually show it happening somehow

I have to get this out of the way: the ring is hardly evidence of a spinning base, nor would there be much use in having a spin joint in the middle of a muscle structure. That would make the little bundle even worse for moving the arm because you would be halving what little you're already devoting to it. Besides, if you're going to actually insert a spinning base, wouldn't it make more sense to that at the base? Personally I don't think it needed in the shoulder with either of our ideas regarding the joint. In the joints where you do more manipulation (wrist, like you mentioned), yes and I would agree that it has been shown. In the shoulder I don't see a need and a black ring--that honestly looks more like it is just keeping the muscle from banging against the armor above and around it--isn't really what I'd call evidence. Nor do I recall a moment where that shoulder movement has been shown. I distinctly remember Nokama spinning her hydroblades at incredible speeds, but I have no memory of that kind of shoulder motion.

Now, on to the actual "joints" of this joint structure.

You can raise up your shoulders by lifting the collarbone

I'm just going to stop quoting right there because I think the idea you've been trying to get across actually just clicked. I will object to the "almost ball joints" comment because while a lot of our bones are rounded like they would be, our collarbone (for ex.) acts very much like a hinge as opposed to a ball. And the ankles and wrists act like ball-joints in ways, but not in others, nor would their anatomy give leave to think of them as being almost-ball joints. More like multi-directional hinges.

To borrow part of Tattorack's image up there and edit it:

Is this the sort of this you're proposing? The inner part being just a more-outwardly placed collar-hinge (up and down, highly limited front and back), the outer part being more of the traditional ball (up, down, back, forth, and rotation)? That's something I can find reasonable, but I've apparently been misunderstanding that if that is indeed what you meant. If that is, then the last thing I need to understand about the Metru shoulder is what the Karzahni is the muscle mass on top of the shoulder for? You'd think it would be there to add more power to shoulder movements, but it doesn't connect over. If we look at Matoran from the same movie, there is something that looks very organic going across a more traditional shoulder. But that connection is gone in the Metru for...who knows.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Zox

**bonesiii** · March 10, 2014

the ring is hardly evidence of a spinning base

You seem to be against the idea. Why? It certainly is evidence of a spinning part. Not proof, though. But I thought we already established that the arm has to be able to spin for them to raise their arms?

if you're going to actually insert a spinning base, wouldn't it make more sense to that at the base?

I assume by base you mean closer inside the torso (I was defining that ring as the 'base' of the arm itself), because the other muscles connecting on the other side only become circular at that point. It's the same in robotics; you don't put it deeper inside just for the heck of it, you put it where it makes the most practical sense to do so. This way, the muscles on one side can make the "base" (the ring; again, that's what I meant by it; hopefully this makes that clearer ) actually swivel a little, so the rotation motion can be adjusted a little in terms of angle to the torso. If you put the spinning part deeper inside, that would be harder to do.

Nor do I recall a moment where that shoulder movement has been shown. I distinctly remember Nokama spinning her hydroblades at incredible speeds, but I have no memory of that kind of shoulder motion.

I recall them hanging from a chute support at one point with arms directly up. Actually, reviewing there, it would be good, if people are curious about this, to view from minute 25 of LoMN on. I see Matau shrugging, showing definitely that there are joints at both ends of the "bridge" (collarbone-esque) part, and their arms can clearly be seen spinning there, both just slightly and for example when Nokama is swimming with her arms directly forward superman style (and when hanging from the bridge later).

Is this the sort of this you're proposing? The inner part being just a more-outwardly placed collar-hinge (up and down, highly limited front and back), the outer part being more of the traditional ball (up, down, back, forth, and rotation)? That's something I can find reasonable

Something along those lines, yeah.

If that is, then the last thing I need to understand about the Metru shoulder is what the Karzahni is the muscle mass on top of the shoulder for?

Wouldn't muscle on top be for lifting? When they lift their arm just a little, but not all the way up so no spin is needed. (And when it spins around, could also pull the arm back.) The confusing issue then would be, what induces spin? Maybe something like magnetic motors, considering their hands all have a minor magnetism power (we could even invoke the electric-motor sound effect from the Nuparu-Boxor-invention scene, etc. as evidence, but not sure what to think of that; obviously there's no such sound effect in the movie).

Does this help?

Edited March 10, 2014 by bonesiii

Zox Tomana · March 10, 2014

the ring is hardly evidence of a spinning base
You seem to be against the idea. Why? It certainly is evidence of a spinning part. Not proof, though. But I thought we already established that the arm has to be able to spin for them to raise their arms?

I recall them hanging from a chute support at one point with arms directly up. Actually, reviewing there, it would be good, if people are curious about this, to view from minute 25 of LoMN on. I see Matau shrugging, showing definitely that there are joints at both ends of the "bridge" (collarbone-esque) part, and their arms can clearly be seen spinning there, both just slightly and for example when Nokama is swimming with her arms directly forward superman style (and when hanging from the bridge later).

No, there just needs to be enough mobility in the shoulder for it to get up. A simple ball joint provides more than enough mobility for that. The shoulder armor is restrictive of them moving their arms up by going outward. That's (as I understand it) why we originally came up with the extended collar-joint, so that there would be enough mobility to lift their arms outward. Going up by swinging forward is comparatively unrestricted. Why does the joint need to have a spinning motor to go around? That how we do it all the time.

Really, the biggest issue I have with the placement of the motor is that it does interrupt the muscles of the shoulder. If that muscle mass in the upper shoulder connected over, wait...

Wouldn't muscle on top be for lifting? When they lift their arm just a little, but not all the way up so no spin is needed. (And when it spins around, could also pull the arm back.) The confusing issue then would be, what induces spin? Maybe something like magnetic motors, considering their hands all have a minor magnetism power (we could even invoke the electric-motor sound effect from the Nuparu-Boxor-invention scene, etc. as evidence, but not sure what to think of that; obviously there's no such sound effect in the movie).

Does this help?

To what, pray tell, is the mass attached in order to lift the arm? If they pull against the top of the armor shell, that won't lift the arm. If they are going to move the entire arm, they need to connect over to the torso. As we see it in the movie, the way the arms are going to be lifted relies on the collar/shoulder joints. That's alright, I guess, considering that there will be mechanical stuff in place to do that, but then what's the point of the muscle we do see? If that muscle mass connected over, it would probably act as the primary mover of the shoulder, assisted and supplemented by mechanical features in the joints themselves, one of which could be a spinning motor. But it doesn't connect over, the only thing I can think of it being used for is moving the forearm, but we already see muscles in much better placement to do so.

**bonesiii** · March 10, 2014

The spin would, again, enable them to lift their arm while still having set and movie accurate shoulder armor. (Whether that is a lever that the upper muscles attach to or whether the muscles go over the shoulder inside the shoulder armor -- either way it physically blocks normal lifting of the arm, but as seen in the movie, the arm spins to enable full arm lifting.)

Most of the rest of your post seems to be operating on an assumption that the spin joint would interfere with muscles. I don't see why it would. At one point you seemed to say that muscles would have to connect from the arm itself to the torso, but why? Why not just connect to the spin joint the way robotic pistons would?

Again, the only issue with that design I see is the question of what would power the spin. But this isn't an issue with having the idea, because the wrists prove that spins are already valid parts of Toa biomechanical design. However they spin, they could be used in the shoulder, and according to the movie they are.

Your premise seems to be to redesign the shoulder armor to not look like a Toa Metru (to look more like a human, or a Toa Inika etc.). But we've been over the canonicity problem with doing that, and it isn't necessary as long as the arm can spin.

Edit: I've just watched more of the movie. It's weird watching a movie just to watch shoulders lol. (I just continued from minute 25.) When the Toa in the prison are trying to break out, you can see the muscles twisting when Onewa has his arms raised. This could be evidence against a wrist-style full spin, but that the same function is simply done by the muscles. However, the muscles do not spin underneath the ring; they stay fixed to that. So it does appear that is the "base" of the arm muscles (so a spin could be imagined to it plausibly and just not used, but it's not needed per se).

Also if you look closely, there's clearly muscles inside the upper shoulder if you look at the shoulder from the outside. So muscle appears to go from this circular base halfway up the "extended collarbone" (shown moving at both ends, recall, when Matau shrugs when the chute flow stops), underneath the shoulder armor, and connects to the arm somewhere inside. The muscle itself handles a partial spin, without a motor, apparently.

So, a spin is used, and we know how it's powered, but it can only be partial, just enough to raise the arm (by turning the shoulder armor back on itself).

I also tried to look for how the wrists do it but haven't yet gotten to a part where that's shown.

You can also see Kongu's shoulder when the DH are threatening him to get him to reverse chute flow, and although he's held upside-down he doesn't spin his arm to lift it all the way. His arm design also looks like it would probably need to do that to lift it all the way as there's a metal piece like a tiny bit of armor on the top of the shoulder ball joint. That and the wrists (of the Toa, at least) clearly look like set balljoints, which I would have to question how that is meant to work canonically.

Possibly the bone inside does have a spin joint, but without a motor, and muscles handle it. But it seems more like the "bridge" is a single metal bone piece with "balljoints" (or equivalent) at both ends.

Edited March 11, 2014 by bonesiii

Tattorack · March 11, 2014

I don't get what the problem is with the muscles.

These are races from another universe and their muscles, of theMU inhabitants at least, are made of completely differant materials than us. It wouldn't be so strange to think they work in a totally differant way than ours do (with some characteristics that we're used to).

What I'd like to know is what the rest of the body is used for. We have a liver, kindnies, spleen, bladder and intestines filling that whole space up. All Iknow about the Toa/Matoran/etc are the lungs. What is their "heart" by the way? Could it be a largely energy based organ? That would probably give more reason to the heartlight than just being an indicator. Answering this would also determin if their circulatory system is made of energy or something else.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Tattorack

Zox Tomana · March 11, 2014

I don't get what the problem is with the muscles.
These are races from another universe and their muscles, of theMU inhabitants at least, are made of completely differant materials than us. It wouldn't be so strange to think they work in a totally differant way than ours do (with some characteristics that we're used to).

What I'd like to know is what the rest of the body is used for. We have a liver, kindnies, spleen, bladder and intestines filling that whole space up. All Iknow about the Toa/Matoran/etc are the lungs. What is their "heart" by the way? Could it be a largely energy based organ? That would probably give more reason to the heartlight than just being an indicator. Answering this would also determin if their circulatory system is made of energy or something else.

They don't have a circulatory system like we do (and thus no real need for organs which are used to filter blood), and I think the current theory is that it is energy based. Take in energy through receptors on the hands (by turning food particles into a kind of nutritive energy), and transfer it throughout the body as needed. This energy could be stored within a battery in the torso, or it could be distributed throughout the body. That's a question I have about Elemental Energy, too. I think it is distributed throughout the body-structure rather than stored in one place (Nuva with external Nuva Symbol battery are an exception due to excess power), but I'm not positive.

I think the heartlight does serve a mainly indicative function of how well energy is flowing in the body, based on the circumstances in which we've seen it flash and go out (deaths, as far as I recall), but considering the Red Star relevations, the heartlight could also be the beacon Bonesiii keeps talking about. That last bit I obviously have no evidence to back up, so... yeah.

@Bones: I'm not even going to quote, I'm feeling way too lazy.

Let's just go ahead and stick with the idea that the ring indicates a point where mechanically induced spin can occur without tearing the muscles. For the muscles to cause spin on their own then, I would say the ring is generally in a locked-state so that the muscles can do what they need to do. When the mechanical portion needs to take a dominant role, the ring unlocks so that the muscles aren't damaged. I think good places for the actual motor(s) would be at the joints themselves (rather than halfway through since, as you say, the bone seems to be a solid piece).

And, you're talking about the outer part of the shoulder, right? The part where we've seen the muscle mass in the Onewa and Vakama pics? If so, could we say the muscles originate at the ring, go through an opening in the shoulder-shell, and insert into the endo-skeleton of the shoulder, possibly after wrapping around some kind of motive device intended to supplement the muscles? The last bit is 'meh' to the rest of the question.

Finally: I wouldn't say it is evidence against a full 360 spin like the wrists are capable of, I would just say it is not shown that such a maneuver has proven necessary to be shown. As far as seeing how the wrists do it, I think just looking at Vakama's left hand might be useful. It is just a ball and socket. Tahu's hands are the same. Yeah, this is likely just because the sets are that way, but that's actually perfect for what you see as far as the full-spin. Neither depiction shows any troublesome muscles going across the wrist to be disconnects, just a ball. It could be purely mechanical, and that would actually be of practical use to a race of workers. Who needs a ratcheting screwdriver? Just make your wrist spin a lot!

Tattorack · March 11, 2014

They don't have a circulatory system like we do (and thus no real need for organs which are used to filter blood), and I think the current theory is that it is energy based. Take in energy through receptors on the hands (by turning food particles into a kind of nutritive energy), and transfer it throughout the body as needed. This energy could be stored within a battery in the torso, or it could be distributed throughout the body. That's a question I have about Elemental Energy, too. I think it is distributed throughout the body-structure rather than stored in one place (Nuva with external Nuva Symbol battery are an exception due to excess power), but I'm not positive.

Well... I know that, but,... the entire torso is filled with a battery?

What if there are "organs" to filter the system? I'm sure not all sources give the exact same kind of energy, so what if there are some mechanical based organs that filter and/or convert the energy? The battery would then be situated more near the chest then (perhaps I'm bringing to much "logical"anatomy into to this, with the heart-like thing being in the chest... but then why would the heartlight not be somewher else than either?)

**bonesiii** · March 11, 2014

Based on a Q&A in Jag's file (see Greg Compendium firstpost latest edit for the link, or Jag's latest post there), it now appears to me the heartlight system probably works like this (but this is just a theory, to be clear):

1) Lungs take in air (with oxygen), supercharging the protodermis molecules in the lungs with energy -- for now, let's call it electricity although it might be something else. Eating also takes in energy.

2) All protodermis molecules throughout the body, even the plain old metal components, spread the electricity to every other part, with no need for above-micro-scale wires. The physical bonds between each protodermis molecule can act like wires (my coming protodermis theory will have more on that). So, the "heart" is likely not used for transmission of energy. This powers all the mechanical parts as well as the organic parts.

3) A lubricant system similar to those in cars does have a physical liquid pump, somewhat like our heart, but instead of using this to pump blood for transmission of energy to other cells as it works in ours (via oxygen transportation, etc.), it simply maintains lubricant presence everywhere that lubricant is needed. (Eating may involve the transformation of some food mass to energy and then back to matter to make new lubricant, and an alternate internal system could do the same if they chose to eat the way we do and most Rahi do, but they prefer not to. Same with making new organic mass for healing if needed.)

4) If the lubricant system is being powered by the more fundamental energy transmission system, and thus is functioning, the heartlight blinks. (Or at least shines, apparently it might not always be blinking, somebody said somewhere recently, which I've never noticed; in my stories thus far I've always assumed it blinks constantly unless it stops working. :shrugs: ) The logic here is that if the molecular electricity/energy transmission system stopped working and thus the lubricant pump stopped, everything else would be stopping too. But it's possible that the lubricant pump could break and give a false (lack of) signal to the heartlight without being fatal, if the energy flow was still working. (Or the heartlight indicator itself could break.)

Now this is strictly based on my basic protodermis theory and on Greg's answer. I still like to think that the heart actually does involve energy transmission, though. Greg's answer was not presented as a final answer but just his personal feeling on it so far. And my protodermis theory is of course also just theory. So, we're still free to imagine the system working differently than this. :shrugs:

For the muscles to cause spin on their own then, I would say the ring is generally in a locked-state so that the muscles can do what they need to do.

Agreed. I suspect now that the "bridge" is made of a "balljoint" (or perhaps universal joint) on both ends, with a narrower metal rod between them, and in the middle, a ring that extends out, probably not spinning, just a thicker part of the rod. Muscles connect from torso to one side of this dividing ring, and other muscles connect from other side of ring, over the shoulders, and to the arm. Muscles can lift and twist, providing all the movements needed to move the arms around or twist enough to lift straight up. Does that seem to fit?

If this is the case, then possibly no wrist-style spin is needed. That's what I'm thinking now.

Yeah, this is likely just because the sets are that way, but that's actually perfect for what you see as far as the full-spin.

For a set, it would be, but what would power motion? I'm thinking it might be a universal joint and balljoints are just shown to symbolize it (or with the intent of "don't think too hard about this part" ). Smaller muscles might handle tilting inside a universal joint, and then all you'd need is a system for spinning in the root of the universal joint (like on real-world robots). If it's a balljoint, I guess the same system that handles spin must also handle all other motion which seems to require something much more advanced.

Another problem is that a smooth balljoint might run into serious problems getting enough friction to hold it where you need it to be. And a rough one isn't depicted but could also run into problems. Of course, a spinning motor could have similar problems, but robots have ways (I could get into some possibilities but this post is probably long enough heh). I dunno, I think this part needs more thought if we want to come up with something plausible and practical enough.

Well... I know that, but,... the entire torso is filled with a battery?

It probably would take up a significant portion, but not the whole thing. This is assuming of course that every protodermis molecule doesn't function like a battery, which they might. Real-world matter (metal anyways), not so much, but this isn't that. I suspect they all do to a small extent but an actual section devoted entirely to energy storage is probably there too. They may have other organs and/or mechanical systems too though.

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