Why is Bionicle Kinda Sexist?

[Reznas]

I think there's a problem with the reasoning along the lines of "an all-female team in a story isn't sexist." It would be great to have more all-female teams, but if we cherish the all-female teams and look down on the all-male teams, eventually we'll come to a point where all-female teams are the norm and all-male teams are rare. We don't want to come to that point, because then it's the opposite extreme. We need to find a way to balance things out. That means we don't have all-female teams, and we don't have all-male teams. There is always room for the opposite sex in any story, no matter the story. That should apply on both sides. Stories targeted at females should have male characters just like stories targeted at males should have female characters.

 

-Rez

[believe victims]

Are you, as of this moment, an 8 year old? 

I'm curious actually. Is anyone on these forums 8 years old and can testify that they believe that Bionicle is sexist, or if they care about the gender of their plastic toy?

 

If you ask an 8-year-old "is your favorite toyline sexist?", they will either vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever, or ask you what that word means, then vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever. 8 year olds are useful in gauging how well the line would sell, but not in gauging how problematic certain aspects are. I'll feed my cat cat food, but I won't ask him if it's nutritious. He neither knows nor cares.

[Reznas]

If you ask an 8-year-old "is your favorite toyline sexist?", they will either vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever, or ask you what that word means, then vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever. 8 year olds are useful in gauging how well the line would sell, but not in gauging how problematic certain aspects are. I'll feed my cat cat food, but I won't ask him if it's nutritious. He neither knows nor cares.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the comparison between children and cats is just not even valid at all. Cats don't have the ability to understand human ideas.They will never be able to tell you anything. They can't talk. Whereas an eight year old may not understand sexism, but they have the ability to. And they are capable of understanding such ideas. A cat can't ever tell you if something is nutritious, but an eight year old can most certainly tell you if something is sexist or not, if he has the aptitude.

 

-Rez

Edited July 30, 2014 by Reznas

[TheGreatSpirit]

 

If you ask an 8-year-old "is your favorite toyline sexist?", they will either vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever, or ask you what that word means, then vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever. 8 year olds are useful in gauging how well the line would sell, but not in gauging how problematic certain aspects are. I'll feed my cat cat food, but I won't ask him if it's nutritious. He neither knows nor cares.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the comparison between children and cats is just not even valid at all. Cats don't have the ability to understand human ideas.They will never be able to tell you anything. They can't talk. Whereas an eight year old may not understand sexism, but they have the ability to. And they are capable of understanding such ideas. A cat can't ever tell you if something is nutritious, but an eight year old can most certainly tell you if something is sexist or not, if he has the aptitude.

 

-Rez

 

I find that to be offensive against cats.

Edited July 30, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[believe victims]

 

If you ask an 8-year-old "is your favorite toyline sexist?", they will either vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever, or ask you what that word means, then vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever. 8 year olds are useful in gauging how well the line would sell, but not in gauging how problematic certain aspects are. I'll feed my cat cat food, but I won't ask him if it's nutritious. He neither knows nor cares.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the comparison between children and cats is just not even valid at all. Cats don't have the ability to understand human ideas.They will never be able to tell you anything. They can't talk. Whereas an eight year old may not understand sexism, but they have the ability to. And they are capable of understanding such ideas. A cat can't ever tell you if something is nutritious, but an eight year old can most certainly tell you if something is sexist or not, if he has the aptitude.

 

-Rez

 

 

Unless a majority of eight year olds these days have an understanding of sexism, the comparison of eight year olds neither knowing or caring about possibly problematic elements of media they absorb and cats neither knowing or caring about the nutritional value of the food they eat is perfectly valid. I'm not saying 8 year olds are like cats in every respect, simply that I'd trust an 8 year old's voice on matters of sexism like i'd trust a cat's "voice" on matters of nutrition.

 

Also, if my cat cared about the nutrition of his food, he'd find some way to communicate he had an issue, just like he communicates being hungry or being lonely. Cats may not be able to speak, but they can still communicate.

[Observance]

I think there's a problem with the reasoning along the lines of "an all-female team in a story isn't sexist." It would be great to have more all-female teams, but if we cherish the all-female teams and look down on the all-male teams, eventually we'll come to a point where all-female teams are the norm and all-male teams are rare. We don't want to come to that point, because then it's the opposite extreme. We need to find a way to balance things out. That means we don't have all-female teams, and we don't have all-male teams. There is always room for the opposite sex in any story, no matter the story. That should apply on both sides. Stories targeted at females should have male characters just like stories targeted at males should have female characters.

 

-Rez

 

The thing is, that opposite extreme just plain isn't going to happen. The scales are already severely tipped in one direction. You're saying that to balance them, we have to add an equal amount of weight on both sides. 

 

Equality won't come if you do that. What we need is to tilt the balance in favor of female protagonists until both sides are equally weighted, until everybody accepts them as commonplace as male protagonists. Then we write the stories you talk about.

 

edit: Also I'd be inclined to trust Octodad's opinion on this matter, considering she's probably the most experienced/well-versed out of all of us currently taking part in this discussion, regarding matters of sexism

Edited July 30, 2014 by Observance

[Reznas]

Unless a majority of eight year olds these days have an understanding of sexism, the comparison of eight year olds neither knowing or caring about possibly problematic elements of media they absorb and cats neither knowing or caring about the nutritional value of the food they eat is perfectly valid. I'm not saying 8 year olds are like cats in every respect, simply that I'd trust an 8 year old's voice on matters of sexism like i'd trust a cat's "voice" on matters of nutrition.

 

Also, if my cat cared about the nutrition of his food, he'd find some way to communicate he had an issue, just like he communicates being hungry or being lonely. Cats may not be able to speak, but they can still communicate.

 

But you're missing the point. Cats aren't capable in the same way that children are. You're trying to compare two things that are on completely different levels.

 

Communication is a little different. They don't know what "nutrition" is, so they can't communicate "there's too much sugar in this food" like an eight year old can communicate that something is sexist. See, while the majority of eight year olds don't understand sexism, the huge difference between the two things you compared is that an eight year old can understand sexism, while a cat can never tell you the nutritional value of something, much less communicate it.

 

 

The thing is, that opposite extreme just plain isn't going to happen. The scales are already severely tipped in one direction. You're saying that to balance them, we have to add an equal amount of weight on both sides. 

 

Equality won't come if you do that. What we need is to tilt the balance in favor of female protagonists until both sides are equally weighted, until everybody accepts them as commonplace as male protagonists. Then we write the stories you talk about.

 

How do you know if equality won't come that way? Sometimes the best way to change things is by showing how the end result should be. What I'm saying is that tilting the balance of female protagonists disproportionately will only bring us to the other extreme. Getting to that extreme isn't as impossible as you think...

 

-Rez

 

EDIT:

 

edit: Also I'd be inclined to trust Octodad's opinion on this matter, considering she's probably the most experienced/well-versed out of all of us currently taking part in this discussion, regarding matters of sexism

 

How so? What makes her opinions better than anyone else's?

 

EDIT2: Also edited out all caps.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Reznas

[Pomegranate]

 

If you ask an 8-year-old "is your favorite toyline sexist?", they will either vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever, or ask you what that word means, then vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever. 8 year olds are useful in gauging how well the line would sell, but not in gauging how problematic certain aspects are. I'll feed my cat cat food, but I won't ask him if it's nutritious. He neither knows nor cares.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the comparison between children and cats is just not even valid at all. Cats don't have the ability to understand human ideas.They will never be able to tell you anything. They can't talk. Whereas an eight year old may not understand sexism, but they have the ability to. And they are capable of understanding such ideas. A cat can't ever tell you if something is nutritious, but an eight year old can most certainly tell you if something is sexist or not, if he has the aptitude.

 

-Rez

 

If you ask an 8 year old boy how he thinks girls his age feel about there being only one girl in a story with five boys, there's a good chance he'll say he they might feel it's unfair. He might not know what "Sexism" means but 8 year olds are smarter than you think and recognize simple, SIMPLE concepts like there being more of one thing than another makes for an unequal amount of both, and that generally people want to have more of something than less. Source: I was 8 once, and my brother is now 9 (he was 8 once too), I can vouch for the awareness and reasoning skills of kids who can do long division and read Harry Potter books and do other 4th grade things. Should I go make him take a survey for me when he's at camp for a bigger focus group?

 

And the 8 year old thing- the whole POINT of the 8 year old is that they might not know any better and are easily impressionable. He might not recognize his favorite toyline is sexist, and grow up thinking things he thinks are normal, but are actually harmful to ladies. That's why everyone cares about sexism in a dead toyline, they don't want to repeat history so they're getting this information out there.

 

I don't know why the conclusion that's immediately jumped to by folks when asking for more female representation is "but then it'll be ALL GIRLS and that's SEXIST because we're glorifying women and spitting on men" but that's not what equality is. Spitting on men is too far, but glorifying women? In a good way? Is that really so threatening to you? Solving a problem doesn't mean jumping from one extreme to the next and hoping that whatever survives ends up balancing out. The answer is to just balance it out from the start. Others will start to follow suit.

 

Sexism is a form of oppression. Men aren't oppressed when a story features a mostly female case, it's not making anyone feel inferior, but they will recognize right away that there's few men and they will call it out. In the opposite situation, it's considered normal that there's only one or two ladies, and it's not mentioned nearly as often, by either sex. If you feel left out or that you're a victim of sexism cause of a situation with a story oriented towards girls, imagine how the girls feel in your shoes in a world where that's the situation they're in most of the time. Let them have their own space without making an uproar over it, 'cause apparently you don't already have enough. It's a very different issue. You may think it's sexist, but at the end of the day it really doesn't affect you at all. You're not gonna go through your life feeling like you're second best because of it, 'cause you're already on top. Obviously nothing is perfect, obviously there's always exceptions to the rule and people who really are malicious and make things that spite certain other kinds of people, but for the most part it is men deliberately excluding women from media in a world that they've already dominated in basically every other way. Even when you don't like the media, it's still an issue that men aren't more involved in it, sometimes you even blame that fact for why the media is apparently bad. "Its a girls show, I don't like it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's sexist." Meanwhile, there's so much cool stuff aimed at dudes that girls like 'cause it's really just pretty gender neutral that they dont find much representation in. They're both "sexist" as you may see it, but it's not nearly the same circumstances. 

 

*  "How dare that perpetually hungry person eat a cake on their birthday that's more expensive than the kind of cake me and all my friends buy for every possible event and eat very frequently, without even sharing any with us? He gave me a tiny piece and I didn't like it but I still want him to share an equal amount with me! That's unfair to me 'because I'm left out. Everyone tells me that it's unfair that I never share my weekly cakes with this hungry person, so it's equally bad that he's not sharing with me this one time he has had cake this year! And I give him tiny pieces too so he feels like he's having cake with us too sometimes! So he owes me this!"

 

That's basically the difference here. You're being "wronged" in the same way they are, technically, but they are wronged so so so so so much more, and then when they get something that celebrates them, they're criticized for not opening up space in it to let in those people who wrong them, because then its "exactly the same wrongdoing". It's not. You gotta learn what it is to be privileged (another word that has a bad connotation only because people with advantages in life hate being labeled as such for some reason?) in ways other people aren't and recognize how to use it to benefit others instead of being greedy and unreasonable. 

 

That's why it matters that gals are under represented in Bionicle, 'cause a lot of girls liked it but didn't get as many role models and characters to relate to by their gender as boys did, and it is alienating and discouraging and just plain annoying. Calling out a piece of media aimed for girls as not having enough guys in it isn't gonna make that situation any better, but saying, "gee, that really is unfair. There aught to be more girls in Bionicle" will make them feel better and feel like they're not alone in a world of people who simply don't care. It can even lead to change for the better in the long run. Have a heart, think of the other group sometimes

 

TL;DR: Read the little paragraph marked with the star, that's the main point being made here

 

editted out rude all caps, my bad. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Observance]

How do you know if equality won't come that way? Sometimes the best way to change things is by showing how the end result should be. What I'm saying is that tilting the balance of female protagonists disproportionately will only bring us to the other extreme. Getting to that extreme isn't as impossible as you think...

If it's not as impossible as I think, I challenge you to prove that a sudden wave of anti-male protagonist feeling isn't simply a strawman argument. I'm reminded of what Martin Luther King, Jr. said about "moderate whites" in his Letter from Birmingham Jail.

 

How so? What makes her opinions better than anyone else's?

I trust her opinions because I'd assume women understand the mechanics of discrimination against women better than people who aren't women.

 

(I trust Pomegranate too)

Edited July 30, 2014 by Observance

[Reznas]

Sexism is a form of oppression. Men aren't oppressed when a story features a mostly female case, it's not making anyone feel inferior,

 

If men can't be oppressed by a mostly female cast, then how can there be a flip side? Just because males are supposedly "superior," which is a stereotype in itself (I treat women just as I would treat any men, and there are plenty of men like me who do the same), doesn't mean a female cast can't portray females as superior. Men can be oppressed to, by females. It's time we stop assuming males can't be oppressed. I have had a fair share of oppression from females that I know personally, and they certainly acted superior. It goes both ways, and while a lot of it comes from males (I'll admit that males are more often sexist than females are), males aren't the only culprits.

 

That's why it matters that gals are under represented in Bionicle, 'cause a lot of girls liked it but didn't get as many role models and characters to relate to by their gender as boys did, and it is alienating and discouraging and just plain annoying.

Actually, I've advocated for more girls in Bionicles. I think there's certainly a problem with the gender ratio in Bionicle, and I would have loved to see more variety.

 

Have a heart, think of the other group sometimes

Read above.

 

I trust her opinions because I'd assume women understand the mechanics of discrimination against women better than people who aren't women.

 

(I trust Pomegranate too)

 

Octodad doesn't speak for all women. That doesn't mean her opinions are wrong, but being a women doesn't automatically make her opinions of sexism against women right.

 

-Rez

Edited July 30, 2014 by Reznas

[Observance]

It might not make her opinions automatically right but if a woman speaks out about something being sexist against women I'd be more inclined to trust what that woman says, as opposed to a man speaking about why something isn't sexist against women. Refer to Pomegranate's starred paragraph.

[Pomegranate]

 

Sexism is a form of oppression. Men aren't oppressed when a story features a mostly female case, it's not making anyone feel inferior,

 

If men can't be oppressed by a mostly female cast, then how can there be a flip side? Just because males are supposedly "superior," which is a stereotype in itself (I treat women just as I would treat any men, and there are plenty of men like me who do the same), doesn't mean a female cast can't portray females as superior. Men can be oppressed to, by females. It's time we stop assuming males can't be oppressed. I have had a fair share of oppression from females that I know personally, and they certainly acted superior. It goes both ways, and while a lot of it comes from males (I'll admit that males are more often sexist than females are), males aren't the only culprits.

 

That's why it matters that gals are under represented in Bionicle, 'cause a lot of girls liked it but didn't get as many role models and characters to relate to by their gender as boys did, and it is alienating and discouraging and just plain annoying.

 

Actually, I've advocated for more girls in Bionicles. I think there's certainly a problem with the gender ratio in Bionicle, and I would have loved to see more variety.

 

Have a heart, think of the other group sometimes

 

Read above.

 

 

First response thingy: The shows don't represent men as being superior to women, they just don't show enough women, and in that way they're showing that men are more important 'cause there's so many more of them that we need to pay attention to. That's the problem of representation. It doesn't just mean "how they are represented" but "how many and how often". The thing about "how can there be a flip side"-- the entire point of having a flip side is that one side is different from the other. Coins can have a shiny side and mucky eroded side. "I treat women just as I would treat any men, and there are plenty of men like me who do the same" -- good for you? This does not suddenly make it irrelevant that there are men who don't treat women the way they should be treated. "Not all men", as you've probably heard a thousand times by now, doesn't mean a thing. EVERYONE KNOW not all men do this or that, nobody is that deluded that they put all men in a box. But it's still men who are doing wrong. Not all of them, but more than enough of them. You really shouldn't treat "I treat women well" as if it's something to be applauded, it's something that's should be expected. Some girls being mean to you isn't oppression. Oppression isn't when you ask to sit at their table and they tell you that boys stink and you should go, oppression is when they tell you you stink and you should go cause you're a boy when you're at a job interview. Your feelings are getting hurt, maybe just because you're a boy, but that's nothing compared to struggling every day to prove your worth and make people see you as a person instead of "just a woman". Like I said before, get some perspective. You may think you're being "oppressed", but you're really not. This is iffy because it's always a case by case basis, but generally you should consider that they are lashing out because they face actual oppression and have the right to try and fight back? Always consider that you may not be in the right and that perhaps they might even be reacting to something that you unintentionally did to make them specifically target you. If you said anything that you said in this response to them, then that's probably your answer. They didn't like it

 

 

Second thingy: That's awesome, good for you. With no sarcasm this time. You've acknowledged the problem, you'd like to see it solved. Not much to say here. Keep it up? c:

 

Third thingy: Read above.

 

My arguments aren't just meant to be aimed directly at you, by the by, I'm responding to the statements themselves 'cause they're common arguments. I really try not to judge people based off one thing, even if it really irks me. I don't know you well enough to start criticizing you. I can only try to explain why bad opinions are bad and what a better way of thinking is. 

 

Octodad doesn't speak for all women. That doesn't mean her opinions are wrong, but being a women doesn't automatically make her opinions of sexism against women right.

 

Octodad's experiences are more authentic than your assumptions of how others feel. Believe it or not, while being a woman doesn't automatically make their opinions right, it does give them a lot of credibility. If a woman is telling you something that a solid majority of other women agree with, and they have firsthand experience to support it, I would listen to what she's saying 'cause she prolly know's what's up.

 

edit: I'll aim to be more concise in the future and snip long quotes, sorry.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pomegranate

[bonesiii]

Folks, can we please try to shy away from the super-long posts? No real rule against them (and I'm one to talk, right? ), but it makes it hard to keep up, and I'm seeing a lot of all-caps creeping into them and it can be a mite overwhelming for those who you are disagreeing with.

[Reznas]

First response thingy: 

 

The shows don't represent men as being superior to women, they just don't show enough women, and in that way they're showing that men are more important 'cause there's so many more of them that we need to pay attention to. That's the problem of representation. It doesn't just mean "how they are represented" but "how many and how often". The thing about "how can there be a flip side"-- the entire point of having a flip side is that one side is different from the other. Coins can have a shiny side and mucky eroded side. "I treat women just as I would treat any men, and there are plenty of men like me who do the same" -- good for you? This does not suddenly make it irrelevant that there are men who don't treat women the way they should be treated. "Not all men", as you've probably heard a thousand times by now, doesn't mean a thing. EVERYONE KNOW not all men do this or that, nobody is that deluded that they put all men in a box. But it's still men who are doing wrong. Not all of them, but more than enough of them. You really shouldn't treat "I treat women well" as if it's something to be applauded, it's something that's should be expected. Some girls being mean to you isn't oppression. Oppression isn't when you ask to sit at their table and they tell you that boys stink and you should go, oppression is when they tell you you stink and you should go cause you're a boy when you're at a job interview. Your feelings are getting hurt, maybe just because you're a boy, but that's nothing compared to struggling every day to prove your worth and make people see you as a person instead of "just a woman". Like I said before, get some perspective. You may think you're being "oppressed", but you're really not. This is iffy because it's always a case by case basis, but generally you should consider that they are lashing out because they face actual oppression and have the right to try and fight back? Always consider that you may not be in the right and that perhaps they might even be reacting to something that you unintentionally did to make them specifically target you. If you said anything that you said in this response to them, then that's probably your answer. They didn't like it

 

Fair points. Although I will say that since you don't know whether or not I've actually been oppressed by any women, you're being a bit presumptuous by saying I haven't been.

 

Octodad's experiences are more authentic than your assumptions of how others feel. Believe it or not, while being a woman doesn't automatically make their opinions right, it does give them a lot of credibility. If a woman is telling you something that a solid majority of other women agree with, and they have firsthand experience to support it, I would listen to what she's saying 'cause she prolly know's what's up.

 

I tried using this same point here, but I got the response of, "One women doesn't speak for them all." In fact, I got a PM or two regarding that. I'm just slightly confused as to how one woman's point doesn't speak for all women and therefore probably isn't that valuable, but then another woman's point, which doesn't speak for all women, is valuable. Honestly, I would say in both accounts that a woman's opinion on a subject regarding women is valuable, but as I said, I'm confused, because I was reprimanded for saying the same exact thing in another topic, but the flip side applies here.

 

-Rez

[Fry]

Niether I, not any of my old elementary school friends (some of which were girls) cared about the genders. They would just make up their own story characters (if they cared enough to do it)

 

I brought a can of Bionicles to school once and we all made sets n' stuff. Some made boy sets and some made girl sets. It's not about offending fans, it's all about sales. The scenario above is the standerd kids expierence with Bionicle.

 

As with any toy marketed towards kids, half of them don't even know the story let alone care. I liked it, do I played MNOG. Then suddenly, 13 years later, I am the only one who still even remembers Bionicle. (I haven't talked to them in like 5 years so whatever)

[Airoski]

 

 

If you ask an 8-year-old "is your favorite toyline sexist?", they will either vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever, or ask you what that word means, then vehemently say no and tell you it's the best toyline ever. 8 year olds are useful in gauging how well the line would sell, but not in gauging how problematic certain aspects are. I'll feed my cat cat food, but I won't ask him if it's nutritious. He neither knows nor cares.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the comparison between children and cats is just not even valid at all. Cats don't have the ability to understand human ideas.They will never be able to tell you anything. They can't talk. Whereas an eight year old may not understand sexism, but they have the ability to. And they are capable of understanding such ideas. A cat can't ever tell you if something is nutritious, but an eight year old can most certainly tell you if something is sexist or not, if he has the aptitude.

 

-Rez

Unless a majority of eight year olds these days have an understanding of sexism, the comparison of eight year olds neither knowing or caring about possibly problematic elements of media they absorb and cats neither knowing or caring about the nutritional value of the food they eat is perfectly valid. I'm not saying 8 year olds are like cats in every respect, simply that I'd trust an 8 year old's voice on matters of sexism like i'd trust a cat's "voice" on matters of nutrition.

 

Also, if my cat cared about the nutrition of his food, he'd find some way to communicate he had an issue, just like he communicates being hungry or being lonely. Cats may not be able to speak, but they can still communicate.

The analogy here is limited as a human brain responds very differently to media than a cat's digestive system would to food. If you fed a cat unhealthy food, that cat would become unhealthy. Implying that children will become sexist because the ratio of males to females in a fictional world does not match our own is not nearly such a simple causal link.

 

I'd also be concerned about the results of applying this way of thinking when deciding what media we 'feed' to children. I wouldn't want to live in a world where all media is completely free of prejudice. Such a world would see media just reinforcing one way of thinking, without challenging us.

 

If one views a slightly sexist piece of media, one is forced to address the the sexism. 8-year-old me thought it was strange that there was only one female Toa, and I imagine this helped to form my early opinions on representation.

 

I'd introduce a further analogy, that viewing challenging media can boost one's defences to prejudice in the same manner that an immune system gains resistance to a disease only by being exposed to that very same disease.

 

If we were only ever exposed to perfectly prejudice-free media, when something sexist did rear its ugly head, we'd have no argument against it other than that it was just somehow 'wrong' because it defies conventional wisdom. I don't want the thinkers of tomorrow to be anti-sexist because they were taught to be, I want them to be anti-sexist because it is right for many of the reasons highlighted so eloquently in this thread.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Airoski

[Reznas]

It's not about offending fans, it's all about sales.

 

No one said that LEGO was purposely trying to offend fans. We're just pointing out that because LEGO is in it for the money, they target a gender-exclusive audience and exclude the other gender. In the end, they probably wouldn't lose any money if they added in more female characters.

 

-Rez

[Fry]

 

It's not about offending fans, it's all about sales.

 

 

No one said that LEGO was purposely trying to offend fans. We're just pointing out that because LEGO is in it for the money, they target a gender-exclusive audience and exclude the other gender. In the end, they probably wouldn't lose any money if they added in more female characters.

 

-Rez

Thats not what I meant, I meant that their primary concern is sales. The majority of Bionicles sales were from little kids who knew little to nothing about the story. Who do you think gets priority?

[Pomegranate]

Fair points. Although I will say that since you don't know whether or not I've actually been oppressed by any women, you're being a bit presumptuous by saying I haven't been.

Yeah, I did say that it's kinda iffy. The oppression I'm talking about is the kind of oppression that makes your life more difficult just by being different, not inflicted by any one person in particular, and it doesn't just hurt your feelings but generally makes you work harder just to be recognized or achieve something. It follows you around and you have to actively fight it. If you go away from all the individual women who are "oppressing" you, your oppression basically ends until they can harm you again. On the other hand, a woman get go away from guys who are harassing her and walk right into a group of complete strangers who are already judging her and treating her unfairly. It's also based specifically on one element of your being, in this case gender. You could be oppressed by women because of some other difference, maybe race or physical disability or economic class or just because they don't like you, but they're not actually stopping you from doing things that you would easily be able to do or avoid if you were of the opposite gender. It's not the same coin that's being flipped around.

 

 

I tried using this same point here, but I got the response of, "One women doesn't speak for them all." In fact, I got a PM or two regarding that. I'm just slightly confused as to how one woman's point doesn't speak for all women and therefore probably isn't that valuable, but then another woman's point, which doesn't speak for all women, is valuable. Honestly, I would say in both accounts that a woman's opinion on a subject regarding women is valuable, but as I said, I'm confused, because I was reprimanded for saying the same exact thing in another topic, but the flip side applies here. 

If it's just a difference of opinion, take it with a grain of salt as you would any other opinion from any other person. However, if this opinion (or whatever it is theyre saying) is about something she knows better than you do, you should take her word for it 'cause you don't have any firsthand experience in it to be able to confidently say that she's wrong. One woman doesn't speak for them all, but there are many universal truths that you can't deny just 'cause you only heard one person say them. It just means you need to educate yourself on it more and be informed on it yourself.

 

 

It's not about offending fans, it's all about sales.

 

No one said that LEGO was purposely trying to offend fans. We're just pointing out that because LEGO is in it for the money, they target a gender-exclusive audience and exclude the other gender. In the end, they probably wouldn't lose any money if they added in more female characters.

 

-Rez

 

That's exactly right-- however there's a good chance that not only would they have not lost money, but made more money if there were more female characters added to get girls interested and buying the product and enjoying the story. I think the fear may have been that sales might've been balanced out by more girls buying those sets but less boys buying them, because the thinking is that boys are taught that it's not a boy toy, because sexism and everything, but that's just speculation. Like I said in my first post in this thread, in an interview with the head of LEGO it was discussed how  int he early 2000s they believed that girls just were not interested in construction sets, so it's likely they didn't even consider them.

 

--

I have work soon so I'll just let this topic be for now. I think I already covered all the main points; I'm already repeating stuff from older posts, actually, so that's that. I really hope someone learned something from all this, 'cause I know firsthand that basically everything I said is like completely new information to a lot of people. I used to be on the other side of these arguments making exactly those points that boggle my mind today, so I would know =P Goodnight folks, please don't tear each other to bits! Always remember to stop and try to really imagine the situation from the other party's perspective, and don't shy away from actually looking at the negatives. You'd only be lying to yourselves. Have an open mind. Thank you for a lovely discussion, everyone, it was very well organized and very civil c:

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Fry]

 

How do you know if equality won't come that way? Sometimes the best way to change things is by showing how the end result should be. What I'm saying is that tilting the balance of female protagonists disproportionately will only bring us to the other extreme. Getting to that extreme isn't as impossible as you think...

If it's not as impossible as I think, I challenge you to prove that a sudden wave of anti-male protagonist feeling isn't simply a strawman argument. I'm reminded of what Martin Luther King, Jr. said about "moderate whites" in his Letter from Birmingham Jail.

 

How so? What makes her opinions better than anyone else's?

I trust her opinions because I'd assume women understand the mechanics of discrimination against women better than people who aren't women.

 

(I trust Pomegranate too)

[Controversial/political subject removed; see post a few below. -bones]

FYI I don't think that any child became sexist because of Bionicle.

 

Goodnight.

 

Anyone wanna play TF2?

Edited July 31, 2014 by bonesiii

[Alyska]

Well, no, nobody becomes sexist because of one particular story, film, etc, that they happen to enjoy. It's more the fact that it's part of a larger pattern of gender imbalance, and it's everywhere- to the point where most people, yourself included, may begin to consider it the norm. 

 

These attitudes really do hurt people, particularly in the entertainment industry- there have been several cases of TV networks and film studios getting concerned because more women than men were watching their media. It didn't even occur to them that more women= more people=more viewers= more $$$, because the idea of there being more females than males in something was considered unnatural and unwanted.

 

Although, I have to say, it's not as "everywhere" as it used to be. We're now living in a world that is beginning to acknowledge the female characters and audience more and more- particularly in the fields of fantasy, science fiction and franchises aimed at kids. Hollywood producers are beginning to recognise that blockbusters starring women can be extremely popular (Twilight, Hunger Games, etc), and that TV shows with predominantly female casts can attract large audiences of both genders (For example, MLP and Orphan Black- two shows rarely mentioned in the same breath, but now that I think about it, totally need a crossover. Korra is another good one, and is aimed at a similar demographic to Bionicle.). The world is changing for the better, and I fear that if Bionicle is re-launched with all the problems of the previous version, it's going to look like an outdated relic from a time long gone.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Alyska

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

While the gender ratio in Bionicle is absolutely a problem, I'd say the gender stereotyping with female characters nearly always taking on "gentle" roles and so on is far more interesting because it can't be explained by marketing drones going "This is line for boy, boy no like girl, we no have girl toy"

[Brickeens]

(I'm not the most knowledgeable about these sort of things so if anyone with more experience can correct anything here please do)

 

If men can't be oppressed by a mostly female cast, then how can there be a flip side? Just because males are supposedly "superior," which is a stereotype in itself (I treat women just as I would treat any men, and there are plenty of men like me who do the same), doesn't mean a female cast can't portray females as superior. Men can be oppressed to, by females. It's time we stop assuming males can't be oppressed. I have had a fair share of oppression from females that I know personally, and they certainly acted superior. It goes both ways, and while a lot of it comes from males (I'll admit that males are more often sexist than females are), males aren't the only culprits.

I get where you're coming from, but it's a false equivalence. Yeah, you can be treated unfairly in specific situations by girls, but that's not the same thing as oppression. If I'm in a situation where I'm being treated unfairly because I'm male, okay, maybe it's wrong, but I can walk away, and continue my life in a society (and world) where just being male gives me the advantage in most situations. Girls can't walk away from unjust treatment, because that's what they face nearly everywhere. Men hold a disproportionate amount of power, representation, are given more credibility, etc. So absolutely, maybe you've been treated unfairly and that sucks, but it's not the same thing as oppression. Unless you and me are dropped into an alternate reality where men have been systematically oppressed for all of history and are still treated unfairly in a female-dominated world where women are in most positions of power, have most of the representation, are given more credibility and so on, I don't think we'll ever know what being oppressed on the basis of gender feels like.

[Element Lord of Milk]

Nobody's saying that you can't have an opinion on this or anything else, Prism. They're saying that a Woman's opinion on sexism would have more weight to it because she (very likely) has first-hand experience with it. (And yes, sexism against men does exist, but nowhere near the quantity or severity as it does against women) using your example, as a man you are literally never going to have to deal with it first-hand, a loved one possibly might, and that can certainly provide a perspective on the subject, but you yourself will never have to deal with it that closely. It doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on it, because you certainly can. There's plenty of information on the subject around, more than enough to make an informed opinion. But any Woman could theoretically have (or has had) first-hand experience with it, thus their opinion would hold more weight, because it directly affects them more than it would a man.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Element Lord of Milk

[fishers64]

*pokes head in the door* 

Nobody's saying that you can't have an opinion on this or anything else, Prism. They're saying that a Woman's opinion on sexism would have more weight to it because she (very likely) has first-hand experience with it. (And yes, sexism against men does exist, but nowhere near the quantity or severity as it does against women) using your example, as a man you are literally never going to have to deal with it first-hand, a loved one possibly might, and that can certainly provide a perspective on the subject, but you yourself will never have to deal with it that closely. It doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on it, because you certainly can. There's plenty of information on the subject around, more than enough to make an informed opinion. But any Woman could theoretically have (or has had) first-hand experience with it, thus their opinion would hold more weight, because it directly affects them more than it would a man.

Actually, it's possible that a girl could mostly isolate themselves from TV and film for 18 years and suddenly poke their head out of a female-character-overloaded stack of books and claim that the mass majority of media isn't sexist. (And also, as a result, never had to have dealt with any of this stuff, funnily enough.)
 
Hi there. 
 
This person could be a girl...and suddenly they know more about this subject than the guys who watch the mass majority of entertainment media? Nope. Being a girl doesn't make you right any more that wearing pink bunny ears and a tail makes you right. In fact, a whole bunch of media entertainment and scholarly articles have been written (by guys and girls alike lol) to convince women that they are being discriminated against and people are being sexist against them (in fact, several sources make a big deal that women don't know when they are being insulted in this way, which is sexism since women being dumb is a type, but whatever). 
 
Anyway, I need to get back on topic, so I guess I'll remember this point from a page ago that I forgot about because of other things:
 

 

Although the classic argument against this is that there are more male-majority stories than female-majority stories, that the guys have had their story 100 times over and that the girls deserve a chance. My answer: why does it have to be this story? Why must you try to change an existing one? Why can't you write or find a new one? Bionicle is not a psychological prison.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with a male-majority story per se, the part that I didn't like was the one-element-one-gender thing. I think that's what most people react to (through the years, not just recently), because that is different.

I understand why LEGO did it, I think -- somebody thought they should have a way to tell who was female, and there was no other way to tell than color, so somebody picked that, but they didn't realize the huge limitations it would place on future story or roleplaying. We do also have to keep in mind that they actually entered the roleplaying genre accidentally -- they said that at first they thought the audience would be more older TECHNIC fans, builders, but it didn't end up that way at all. But understanding how a mistake happened and keeping that mistake through all time are two very different things.

 

I agree with you that this was a mistake - I was referring to the specific mention of MLP in the post I was responding to there.

Another reason I think they did that is that, without the elemental rule, they would eventually have to explain why only guys of the Fire, Ice, Stone, Earth, and Air elements became Toa, and that could get them in more hot water. Unlike in Hero Factory and Ninjago, which has the same recurring characters and this stuff can be swept under the rug, Bionicle had lots of characters and if they had even numbers of female and male Matoran of every element, it would be harder and harder to justify. Or worse, why no female Matoran of those elements were shown on screen, if they weren't, and so on. Faced with destiny being so cruel as to exclude female Toa, I think the element rule is merciful by comparison.

Part of what I hope for a new Bionicle is not just Toa on the screen, but Vortixx and Skakdi and Glatorian in a bit more of a mixed cast. But that's just my opinion though.

Edited July 30, 2014 by fishers64

[Pomegranate]

Actually, it's possible that a girl could mostly isolate themselves from TV and film for 18 years and suddenly poke their head out of a female-character-overloaded stack of books and claim that the mass majority of media isn't sexist.

 

Hi there.

 

Yes, we know, you've made it very clear that you have not have the same experiences as other girls. So scram, lady, we don't like different folk 'round here I kid, I'd actually been wondering why you hadn't said anything about all this yet. Of course it's always good to have any gal's input in these things, especially someone different from the "common" group, I'm glad you commented ^^ Although ironically that's the very thing you're arguing against! Gah! That's a pickle

 

Good thing such girls could go ahead and make that disclaimer and explain that they have had limited media exposure and thus aren't familiar with the subject as much as others. Nobody said to take a woman's words as fact and the be all end all, but rather to trust them when they clearly have experience with it. I've said it a bunch of times before, there's always the exceptions to the rule, and you should always look to many different sources when doing research on something you don't know about. 

 

 

In fact, a whole bunch of media entertainment and scholarly articles have been written (by guys and girls alike lol) to convince women that they are being discriminated against and people are being sexist against them (in fact, several sources make a big deal that women don't know when they are being insulted in this way, which is sexism since women being dumb is a type, but whatever).

That's because they were raised in a world that treats this discrimination and objectification as the most common and normal thing around. Just because women need to be told that they aren't aware of this big major thing has NOTHING TO DO WITH INSINUATING WOMEN ARE DUMB??? That's quite a conclusion to jump to. It's beyond stereotype, it's plain sexism, no truth in it at all (If some of the articles you mentioned actually cite "women are ignorant and dumb" as the reasons for not noticing, then WOW, shame on them. Thas' messed up and straight up hypocricy.)They make a big deal about women not even knowing they're being wronged because it's true. They, and their female family members, and all their female friends were all brought up in the same sexist culture and thus aren't aware that there's something amiss. There's also a lot of women who are fortunate enough to not even be exposed to any of the more dangerous stuff, or even the media like you mentioned. That might contribute to them not knowing about it, 'cause they just don't see it. They are very lucky. It does not suddenly turn into "these women must be dumb to not know this" because there's very good reason that they're not aware. They still need to be taught it, however, because it's something that everyone should know about whether or not they are affected by it. There are other ladies in the world who are not as fortunate, and most of them do have to deal with more oppression and know equally as little about it. The more everyone is educated about it and made aware of it, the better the situation becomes and there are more women who now have the knowledge and experience to want to do something about it. It's not like it doesn't exist; just because one woman does not experience it for whatever reason does not mean it isn't a problem and that it's not her responsibility to help her fellow ladies, and to understand what they struggle with. We're all in this together, it's a big problem that needs to be fought and solved.

 

Basically, I don't understand what the issue it is you had with the stuff you talked about. The point you seem to be making is that because a lot of women aren't even aware of it, not every woman is a reputable source. That's very true, but just because they don't know that there's anything terribly wrong with being catcalled on the street or seeing nude ladies in every other advertisement or seeing less women in higher position jobs or being typecast in media or having boys expect things from them that they think they deserve, does not mean they don't notice it or haven't experienced it in their lives. If they somehow haven't there's a really good chance they know this happens, because of other women talking about it and all this media about it and articles being written, which you mentioned, and that is fundamentally a very very good thing. Knowledge is power, especially in this situation. FOR THE MOST PART, most women experience this stuff and nowadays are very well aware of how wrong it is and so while you shouldn't take every woman's word as truth on the matter, more often than not they know what they're talking about. When bringing up a point about women's opinions on the subject being more important than men's, it's obviously implied that you would be going to women who know what they're talking about. It's not about randomly picking a woman off the street to ask her, it's about a woman on the street going up to you and telling it like it is because she has a point to make. That's when you should take her word over a man's, who definitely does not have the same experiences as her and never will. He might have male equivalents to them, but they are still different things.

 

 

Another reason I think they did that is that, without the elemental rule, they would eventually have to explain why only guys of the Fire, Ice, Stone, Earth, and Air elements became Toa, and that could get them in more hot water. Unlike in Hero Factory and Ninjago, which has the same recurring characters and this stuff can be swept under the rug, Bionicle had lots of characters and if they had even numbers of female and male Matoran of every element, it would be harder and harder to justify. Or worse, why no female Matoran of those elements were shown on screen, if they weren't, and so on.

 

That's the purpose of this topic, to discuss why there were no ladies in those elements to have a relatively more equal amount of males and females in the story as a whole to begin with. If you assume that the genders of the sets still stayed the same, which obviously was 100% a business decision however sexist it was or wasn't in nature, having the story at least have equal representation would still make for a muuuuch better situation as whole. Having a lack of ladies in both sets and story is why the blow is so harsh, at least if one or the other was way less sexist it would be harder to say that Bionicle was sexist in all areas, which unfortunately ended up being the case. 

 

I like what you said about them having to try to explain it away somehow if they made those changes later in the years, which I never thought about. By screwing themselves at the start, it probably would've made it hard for them to fix it later on; however, even if they did it sloppily, their effort and concern for the matter would've been obvious and we would be commending the people responsible for the change in a topic called "Why was Bionicle Kinda Sexist in the First Few Years?" Oh, if only.

Thats like saying that I can't have a say on abortion because I'm a man.

You can't. Not your body, none of your business. Simple as that. Obviously you can discuss it with a loved one if you're in that situation, but I mean like, when it comes to laws and such? Or just telling women your opinion and expecting it to have any value? No. Just no. Either you agree with it or you don't, but in both cases it's just your opinion and you are not allowed to be involved with any decision that is made about it. It's like telling every CEO in the world how they need to be running their company when you have literally 0 experience with working or even watching people work, just because you live next door to a company and feel that being neighbors somehow makes you a co-owner, and by extension have the qualifications to tell every other company what to do. It makes no sense, and you have no right to even complain about it. It has nothing to do with you unless your neighbor CEO and you are very close and they want to explain a company situation to you and ask you to give advice on it, and 'cause it's just advice they are not obligated in any way to take it. It is their company and their decision. This is that. There is just no other way to go about it, that's just how the world works. The fact that you think that you're entitled to have a say in it, even though you're a man? That's a sexist attitude. Being a man does not give you any special authority over anyone or anything. Even if you didn't outright say that it's because you're a man, you're still expressing disdain towards the idea of being limited in what you can control because of your gender, which is basically another way of saying there should be no limit on what you can control. Sexism is funny like that, 'cause you can twist it around until it's not recognizable at first, maybe even to the point where you fool yourself, but it's there. Try to look for it yourself in stuff like this, you'd be surprised at how everything can be traced back to a core ideology. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Fry]

 

Actually, it's possible that a girl could mostly isolate themselves from TV and film for 18 years and suddenly poke their head out of a female-character-overloaded stack of books and claim that the mass majority of media isn't sexist.

 

Hi there.

Yes, we know, you've made it very clear that you have not have the same experiences as other girls. So scram, lady, we don't like different folk 'round here I kid, I'd actually been wondering why you hadn't said anything about all this yet. Of course it's always good to have any gal's input in these things, especially someone different from the "common" group, I'm glad you commented ^^ Although ironically that's the very thing you're arguing against! Gah! That's a pickle

 

Good thing such girls could go ahead and make that disclaimer and explain that they have had limited media exposure and thus aren't familiar with the subject as much as others. Nobody said to take a woman's words as fact and the be all end all, but rather to trust them when they clearly have experience with it. I've said it a bunch of times before, there's always the exceptions to the rule, and you should always look to many different sources when doing research on something you don't know about.

 

In fact, a whole bunch of media entertainment and scholarly articles have been written (by guys and girls alike lol) to convince women that they are being discriminated against and people are being sexist against them (in fact, several sources make a big deal that women don't know when they are being insulted in this way, which is sexism since women being dumb is a type, but whatever).

That's because they were raised in a world that treats this discrimination and objectification as the most common and normal thing around. Just because women need to be told that they aren't aware of this big major thing has NOTHING TO DO WITH INSINUATING WOMEN ARE DUMB??? That's a ###### of a conclusion to jump to. It's beyond stereotype, it's plain sexism, no truth in it at all. They make a big deal about women not even knowing they're being wronged because it's true. They, and their female family members, and all their female friends were all brought up in the same sexist culture and thus aren't aware that there's something amiss. There's also a lot of women who are fortunate enough to not even be exposed to any of the more dangerous stuff, or even the media like you mentioned. That might contribute to them not knowing about it, 'cause they just don't see it. They are very lucky. It does not suddenly turn into "these women must be dumb to not know this" because there's very good reason that they're not aware. They still need to be taught it, however, because it's something that everyone should know about whether or not they are affected by it. There are other ladies in the world who are not as fortunate, and most of them do have to deal with more oppression and know equally as little about it. The more everyone is educated about it and made aware of it, the better the situation becomes and there are more women who now have the knowledge and experience to want to do something about it. It's not like it doesn't exist; just because one woman does not experience it for whatever reason does not mean it isn't a problem and that it's not her responsibility to help her fellow ladies, and to understand what they struggle with. We're all in this together, it's a big problem that needs to be fought and solved.

 

Basically, I don't understand what the issue it is you had with the stuff you talked about. The point you seem to be making is that because a lot of women aren't even aware of it, not every woman is a reputable source. That's very true, but just because they don't know that there's anything terribly wrong with being catcalled on the street or seeing nude ladies in every other advertisement or seeing less women in higher position jobs or being typecast in media or having boys expect things from them that they think they deserve, does not mean they don't notice it or haven't experienced it in their lives. If they somehow haven't there's a really good chance they know this happens, because of other women talking about it and all this media about it and articles being written, which you mentioned, and that is fundamentally a very very good thing. Knowledge is power, especially in this situation. FOR THE MOST PART, most women experience this stuff and nowadays are very well aware of how wrong it is and so while you shouldn't take every woman's word as truth on the matter, more often than not they know what they're talking about. When bringing up a point about women's opinions on the subject being more important than men's, it's obviously implied that you would be going to women who know what they're talking about. It's not about randomly picking a woman off the street to ask her, it's about a woman on the street going up to you and telling it like it is because she has a point to make. That's when you should take her word over a man's, who definitely does not have the same experiences as her and never will. He might have male equivalents to them, but they are still different things.

 

Another reason I think they did that is that, without the elemental rule, they would eventually have to explain why only guys of the Fire, Ice, Stone, Earth, and Air elements became Toa, and that could get them in more hot water. Unlike in Hero Factory and Ninjago, which has the same recurring characters and this stuff can be swept under the rug, Bionicle had lots of characters and if they had even numbers of female and male Matoran of every element, it would be harder and harder to justify. Or worse, why no female Matoran of those elements were shown on screen, if they weren't, and so on.

That's the purpose of this topic, to discuss why there were no ladies in those elements to have a relatively more equal amount of males and females in the story as a whole to begin with. If you assume that the genders of the sets still stayed the same, which obviously was 100% a business decision however sexist it was or wasn't in nature, having the story at least have equal representation would still make for a muuuuch better situation as whole. Having a lack of ladies in both sets and story is why the blow is so harsh, at least if one or the other was way less sexist it would be harder to say that Bionicle was sexist in all areas, which unfortunately ended up being the case.

 

I like what you said about them having to try to explain it away somehow if they made those changes later in the years, which I never thought about. By screwing themselves at the start, it probably would've made it hard for them to fix it later on; however, even if they did it sloppily, their effort and concern for the matter would've been obvious and we would be commending the people responsible for the change in a topic called "Why was Bionicle Kinda Sexist in the First Few Years?" Oh, if only.

Thats like saying that I can't have a say on abortion because I'm a man.

You can't. Not your body, none of your business. Simple as that. Obviously you can discuss it with a loved one if you're in that situation, but I mean like, when it comes to laws and such? Or just telling women your opinion and expecting it to have any value? No. Just no. Either you agree with it or you don't, but in both cases it's just your opinion and you are not allowed to be involved with any decision that is made about it. It's like telling every CEO in the world how they need to be running their company when you have literally 0 experience with working or even watching people work, just because you live next door to a company and feel that being neighbors somehow makes you a co-owner, and by extension have the qualifications to tell every other company what to do. It makes no sense, and you have no right to even complain about it. It has nothing to do with you unless your neighbor CEO and you are very close and they want to explain a company situation to you and ask you to give advice on it, and 'cause it's just advice they are not obligated in any way to take it. It is their company and their decision. This is that. There is just no other way to go about it, that's just how the world works. The fact that you think that you're entitled to have a say in it, even though you're a man? That's a sexist attitude. Being a man does not give you any special authority over anyone or anything. Even if you didn't outright say that it's because you're a man, you're still expressing disdain towards the idea of being limited in what you can control because of your gender, which is basically another way of saying there should be no limit on what you can control. Sexism is funny like that, 'cause you can twist it around until it's not recognizable at first, maybe even to the point where you fool yourself, but it's there. Try to look for it yourself in stuff like this, you'd be surprised at how everything can be traced back to a core ideology.

I am not getting into a political argument on BZPower. Edited July 30, 2014 by PrismWind

[bonesiii]

Folks, please try to stay on-topic and not bring up other controversial subjects. That rarely ends well.

[Pomegranate]

 

 

boop

[COMMENT REDACTED POST-EDIT]

 

[REDACTED BECAUSE EDIT] [MORE REDACTION]

EDIT: Wait why did you change that to say you're not gonna have a political argument? There's no politics here don't worry I hate that it's even a political thing in the FIRST place, old white guys don't have the right to use it as something to base campaigns around. They don't have uteruses either. I replied to your abortion comment because it was sooo wrong and also helps explain more sexism stuff related to the topic, considering that same entitled attitude contributes to people making sexist business decisions because they have the power and think they can do whatever they please. Anyways I'm assuming you dont want people to know your views, so I'm editting the evidence away, no worries

 

I really hope this isn't like, breaking the rules; we're staying away from any of the politics itself, right? I think we're probably done with the topic anyways so it's not gonna get worse, I promise

EDIT: Ah yeah okay, I was afraid we'd get a Bones warning about that. I had it in mind, don't worry.

 

Also you should snip away everything except my reply to you, that's one big quote

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Fry]

Anyways... I think that everything that's been said has already said.

[ALVIS]

Anyways... I think that everything that's been said has already said.

 

Why... yes, everything that has been said has already been said. 

 

Look, eating crow is all well and good, but it's not a dish served with redundancy.

[Jakura Nuva]

...okay. Actually, I had fun reading this thread

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[~Shockwave~]

Anyways... I think that everything that's been said has already said.

 

The department of redundancy department sends their regards, apparently.

 

That is quite a lot of posts to sort through, and I probably don't have much to add. I probably could but I need to read everything before I do. So, maybe I'll have a response later or something, but this at least feels like it's worth participating in, which some just seem better to not, which is good.

[fishers64]

Good thing such girls could go ahead and make that disclaimer and explain that they have had limited media exposure and thus aren't familiar with the subject as much as others. Nobody said to take a woman's words as fact and the be all end all, but rather to trust them when they clearly have experience with it. I've said it a bunch of times before, there's always the exceptions to the rule, and you should always look to many different sources when doing research on something you don't know about. 

I actually took a whole college course on this and related subjects (although that was a coincidence, it actually fulfilled a GE requirement). The big deal I think may be (and I could be wrong)is whether you consider Bionicle a book series or a comic series or a movie/online/multimedia conglomerate with eight legs. What I thought Bionicle to be was a book series with online stuff and movies attached to it, and also toys. But I thought the books were the main thing, so it's another surprise to see it lumped in with stuff like Star Trek and the Avengers.

 

That's why I haven't been commenting too much. When you don't know anything on a subject, the proper protocol is to ask to figure it out, and if you still can't figure it out, shut up and think about what the other person is saying until you know what question to ask next (and who to ask it of: Google and the Greg Dialogues are acceptable question-answerers ). My personal experience thereby leaves me unqualified to discuss yonder subject lol. (Took me way too long to figure that out. XP)

 

The other problem that your post dodges is that if women have to be told that they are being mistreated, are they really being mistreated in that way? But you see, since I haven't been, haven't felt too many negative effects from the media, I'm unqualified to answer the question. The only real negative effect is that people told me that since I was a girl, I wasn't "supposed" to play with Lego bricks or like Bionicle. (Double irony!) But since my parents didn't watch TV either, is it the fault of Bionicle itself? Apparently not, because I still unashamedly like Bionicle. It didn't get to me. Bionicle never said "Girls can't like this."

 

But how many other people did it actually get to? Most of the hypercritical sources claim that women are weak-willed and feel ashamed for having counter-cultural preferences and don't stand up for them. But how do I know that's true? How do I know that there aren't a bunch of people like me out there in the world that hold eccentric preferences with no shame? These sources that claim that stereotypes are bad claim that I don't exist. Am I the only one in 7 billion? I find that hard to believe. 

 

At the same time, I can't claim that the media doesn't hurt some people. Lies hurt people, and the media does a good job of spreading them around. "Girls can't be heroes" is a lie. But Bionicle never said that girls couldn't be heroes. Or were less likely to be heroes. It could have, but it didn't. It just said, "here, there are less girls than boys." 

 

Why... yes, everything that has been said has already been said. 

Yes, like 50 times over. This is fast becoming BZPower's Other Favorite Subject, aside from Everyone's Favorite Toyline.

Edited July 31, 2014 by fishers64

[Banana Gunz]

I honestly still think a lot of people are missing the bigger picture, though it is a little bit more harsh on the girls, the canon rules for gender in Bionicle are both restrictful and wrong to both girls AND boys.

[ALVIS]

Sexism hurts all of us, it's true.

[Daughter of Irnakk]

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news-archive/22445.html

 

I would just like to link this piece of science here so people can grasp the importance of representations in childrens media. I would personally love to see Lego retcon the genders in Bionicle, there's only the thing were Orde where gender has ever mattered, but Chiara called Kane-Ra poo on how sexist the Great Beings were in universe, so it never really mattered in that case either. 

 

Really, it's the simplest matter to retcon. The voices of the characters will just be more interesting if Kopaka for example was female, finally some other voice other than 'generic female'! =D

 

EDIT: Changed something I forgot was inappropriate language into Kane-Ra poo as a substitute.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Rokroro

[Jakura Nuva]

I don't disagree that there needs to be more female characters in Bionicle (and other media), and how important it is. But personally, I'd want to get new female characters rather than retcon old male characters and turn them into females. It may not ruin the story, so to speak, but it would make radical changes to it, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with. But that's just me.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[believe victims]

I don't disagree that there needs to be more female characters in Bionicle (and other media), and how important it is. But personally, I'd want to get new female characters rather than retcon old male characters and turn them into females. It may not ruin the story, so to speak, but it would make radical changes to it, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with. But that's just me.

 

How would changing gender be a radical change if that was all that changed, though? Would Tahu be any less hotheaded if he were she? Would Kopaka be any less cold and aloof? Lewa any less flighty and carefree? I don't think the radical change would be in the characters, but in your perception of them.

[Jakura Nuva]

 

I don't disagree that there needs to be more female characters in Bionicle (and other media), and how important it is. But personally, I'd want to get new female characters rather than retcon old male characters and turn them into females. It may not ruin the story, so to speak, but it would make radical changes to it, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with. But that's just me.

 

How would changing gender be a radical change if that was all that changed, though? Would Tahu be any less hotheaded if he were she? Would Kopaka be any less cold and aloof? Lewa any less flighty and carefree? I don't think the radical change would be in the characters, but in your perception of them.

You're not incorrect, but let's think about this for a moment. What is the point of turning them into females? Theoretically, the only difference would be a change of voice and appearance in the characters. If they were to remain the same personality-wise, there isn't a reason to change their genders other than to call them female - they'd be virtually identical to their male counterparts. I won't lie to you, I'm not a fan of change. But it still doesn't make logical sense why the original characters should have their genders retconned.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Jakura Nuva