Extent of a Toa of Iron's Powers?

[Jonathan Crane]

Theoretically, Molten Protodermis can be controlled by a Toa of Fire working with a Toa of Earth/Stone, like Hakaan and Avak did in one of the books. It's just not commonly used in canon.

could molten protodermis count as lava?

[Click]

Well, I remember it was said that Molten Protodermis was pumped out of Ta-Metru to give lava to Mata Nui's (the island) Mangai Volcano, so yes.

[Boidoh]

 

Theoretically, Molten Protodermis can be controlled by a Toa of Fire working with a Toa of Earth/Stone, like Hakaan and Avak did in one of the books. It's just not commonly used in canon.

could molten protodermis count as lava?

 

 

Could liquid protodermis count as water?

 

Well I guess combining them would make mutagen and they are different to some degree, but you get the point.

 

Wait... what happens when magma mixes with molten protodermis?

[Jonathan Crane]

 

 

Theoretically, Molten Protodermis can be controlled by a Toa of Fire working with a Toa of Earth/Stone, like Hakaan and Avak did in one of the books. It's just not commonly used in canon.

could molten protodermis count as lava?

 

 

Could liquid protodermis count as water?

 

Well I guess combining them would make mutagen and they are different to some degree, but you get the point.

 

Wait... what happens when magma mixes with molten protodermis?

 

"YOU'RE BLOWIN MY MIND, LOK'"

-General Zod to Loki, Super Villain Pub

[Regitnui]

Please remain civil, folks...

Apologies, bonesiii. I personally was trying to clarify his inconsistency.

 

I did answer the protodermis question as "yes and no". Toa of various elements control various types of protodermis. So a Fe-Toa could control metallic protodermis, or proto steel, but not liquid or frozen protodermis, which are under the control of a Ga- and Ko-Toa respectively.

[Thormen]

 

could molten protodermis count as lava?

 

Could liquid protodermis count as water?

 

Well I guess combining them would make mutagen and they are different to some degree, but you get the point.

 

Wait... what happens when magma mixes with molten protodermis?

 

Actually the mutagen wasn't created when Aqua Magna's ocean waters came into contact with Liquid Protodermis, it was created when the ocean waters came into contact with the energies radiated from various sources in the Great Spirit Robot, such as Karda Nui. So I see no reason to believe Molten Protodermis and magma would have some kind of reaction together, they'd probably just mix.

 

I'd say the question whether a Toa of Earth or a Toa of Stone could control Molten Protodermis first of all depends on what kind of Molten Protodermis it is: is it molten Solid Protodermis, molten Metallic Protodermis or something else? In case of the former we should ask whether a Toa of Earth or a Toa of Stone could control it, but in case of the latter we should actually ask whether a Toa of Iron could. And that brings this discussion neatly back on topic IMO

 

BS01's page on Protodermis says:

 

Pure, Liquid Protodermis: This blue liquid was [...] heated into molten Protodermis and examined by the Ga-Matoran.

 

[...]

 

Pure, Solid Protodermis: A type of hardened molten Protodermis that resembles metal. It can be created and controlled by a Toa of Iron. Armor is conventionally made of this substance, and the products of Metru Nui's forges, such as Kanoka disks and Kanohi masks, as well as some artifacts, are in this solid form.

In other words, Molten Protodermis is made from Purified Liquid Protodermis (insert quote from Greg about real world physics not applying here ) and then turned into Metallic Protodermis. So it would make sense that both a Toa of Iron and a Toa of Water could control Molten Protodermis, if Toa could control their element while it's in a different chemical state. I doubt this is the case, since we actually have two elements that represent the same element in a different chemical state: ice and water (another pairing is air and plasma). Toa of water have never been shown to have control over ice in any way, and the only thing Toa of ice can do with water is freeze it (which one could argue falls into the category "creating their element"). The two elements are clearly intended to be separate, so I'm gonna say that by the same logic Molten Protodermis should be separate from Metallic Protodermis.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Thormen

[Regitnui]

Here's a terrifying thought. A Toa of Iron controls metallic protodermis, which also happens to be the thing that Kanohi are made out of. Imagine a Fe-Toa of enough skill actually shattering an opponent's Kanohi on their face!

[Thormen]

Here's a terrifying thought. A Toa of Iron controls metallic protodermis, which also happens to be the thing that Kanohi are made out of. Imagine a Fe-Toa of enough skill actually shattering an opponent's Kanohi on their face!

I think you're on to something here... The way Toa of iron have always been explained is that they're technically capable of destroying their opponents' armor and thereby killing them, but that the Toa Code prevents them from doing so. In other words they're actually really powerful, but morally obligated to limit their powers significantly.

 

But that doesn't apply to Kanohi or in fact Toa Tools or weapons. As far as I can tell, a Toa of iron should be able to destroy anyone's Kanohi or weapons without any moral reservations.

[bonesiii]

More likely they would telekinetically force the Kanohi to fly off their faces and into the Toa's hands (efficient use of resources ), but yes, that should be possible.

 

Assuming that elemental control of that metal overpowers the magnetic force upon the mask, but I do think it would, easily.

[Regitnui]

More likely they would telekinetically force the Kanohi to fly off their faces and into the Toa's hands (efficient use of resources ), but yes, that should be possible.

 

Assuming that elemental control of that metal overpowers the magnetic force upon the mask, but I do think it would, easily.

Elaborating on that idea, a Fa-Toa (Magnetism) may be able to neutralise that force, causing a Kanohi to fall off its owner's face. To top it off, that's entirely within the Toa Code. How much easier would 2001's plot had been if one of the Toa Mata was a Fa-Toa?

[Thormen]

More likely they would telekinetically force the Kanohi to fly off their faces and into the Toa's hands (efficient use of resources ), but yes, that should be possible.

For Kanohi that would probably be best yeah, but I can see a Toa of iron opting to destroy weapons instead of having them fly around and giving the enemy the ability to recover them, especially when the enemy doesn't bear a Kanohi and the first option is therefore out of the question.

 

It's possible many weapons and Kanohi somehow have energies inside of them that would be released this way though... That could be too dangerous for the Toa Code.

 

Assuming that elemental control of that metal overpowers the magnetic force upon the mask, but I do think it would, easily.

Actually I think a Toa of iron with enough concentration to focus on the Protodermis atoms themselves could even disable such a magnetic field entire, but that might be too difficult for the average Toa. I recall a similar discussion years ago where we decided a Toa of gravity could technically bend light by focusing his powers on the photons alone, but the concept would likely be too complicated for any Toa of gravity to master.

 

Elaborating on that idea, a Fa-Toa (Magnetism) may be able to neutralise that force, causing a Kanohi to fall off its owner's face. To top it off, that's entirely within the Toa Code. How much easier would 2001's plot had been if one of the Toa Mata was a Fa-Toa?

Yeah a Toa of magnetism should be able to do that much more easily. However the Toa Mata had to learn to control their powers in 2001, I think a Toa Mata of magnetism would have trouble focusing his power on the Kanohi of the Rahi alone while making sure his own Kanohi remained unaffected. But he'd have a lot less trouble doing so than the examples I mentioned above about Toa of iron controlling magnetism and Toa of gravity controlling light, so I think a Toa Mata of magnetism would be able to learn that trick during the 2001 saga, yes.

[fishers64]

However the Toa Mata had to learn to control their powers in 2001, 

Nitpick here, but the Toa Mata were trained by Hydraxon before going into the canisters, and there is nothing to suggest that they lost that procedural memory. Otherwise they would have had trouble controlling their powers in 2001, and there is nothing to suggest this in any 2001 media that I know about. (Tahu picks up the flame sword, puts on the mask, the sword lights up, and he doesn't find it strange that he can control fire. Contrast that with Vakama's uncomfortableness with the notion of even a narrow bolt of flame to melt a lock.)

 

(In this case the Mata's memory loss wasn't the same as the Matoran's: Tahu eventually even got his "event memory" back in 2008. There's even real-life precedent for people retaining procedural memory when everything else is lost.)

 

Anyway, I think if the Toa Mata had included a Fa-Toa, the Makuta would have chosen another option to menace the Matoran that wouldn't have been defeated so easily. The being was smart - he probably would have thought to look up what elemental types of Toa would be launched in the event of the system breakdown he was causing.  

[Thormen]

Nitpick here, but the Toa Mata were trained by Hydraxon before going into the canisters, and there is nothing to suggest that they lost that procedural memory. Otherwise they would have had trouble controlling their powers in 2001, and there is nothing to suggest this in any 2001 media that I know about. (Tahu picks up the flame sword, puts on the mask, the sword lights up, and he doesn't find it strange that he can control fire. Contrast that with Vakama's uncomfortableness with the notion of even a narrow bolt of flame to melt a lock.)

 

(In this case the Mata's memory loss wasn't the same as the Matoran's: Tahu eventually even got his "event memory" back in 2008. There's even real-life precedent for people retaining procedural memory when everything else is lost.)

That's a good point. I don't know if we ever saw Tahu specifically doing that (unless you're referring to the video of Tahu fighting Jala at the start of MNOLG?) but in Comic #1 'The coming of the Toa' Kopaka basically picks up his sword, walks a while and then coats Matoro's feet with a layer of ice after he spots him using his Kanohi Akaku. He is surprised about his power ("Interesting. The power is in me. The sword is but the focus.") so I guess that supports the event memory vs. procedural memory split.

 

Anyway, I think if the Toa Mata had included a Fa-Toa, the Makuta would have chosen another option to menace the Matoran that wouldn't have been defeated so easily. The being was smart - he probably would have thought to look up what elemental types of Toa would be launched in the event of the system breakdown he was causing.  

I actually think it's the other way round: you'd expect the Makuta to be smart enough to think up a threat that would keep the Toa Mata busy long enough, but he already failed to do that in the storyline, did he? The Rahi were overpowered too quickly, so he sent the Bohrok after them, who were also overpowered too quickly, so he finally sent the Rahkshi. If there had been a Toa of magnetism among them, they'd probably have overpowered them even more quickly (a Toa of magnetism/iron could telekinetically move Cahdok to one side of the island and Gahdok to the other, right? And force the Bohrok to fire their Krana nowhere in particular?), but then the Makuta would probably have had even more tricks up his metaphorical sleeve.

[fishers64]

 

Anyway, I think if the Toa Mata had included a Fa-Toa, the Makuta would have chosen another option to menace the Matoran that wouldn't have been defeated so easily. The being was smart - he probably would have thought to look up what elemental types of Toa would be launched in the event of the system breakdown he was causing.  

I actually think it's the other way round: you'd expect the Makuta to be smart enough to think up a threat that would keep the Toa Mata busy long enough, but he already failed to do that in the storyline, did he? The Rahi were overpowered too quickly, so he sent the Bohrok after them, who were also overpowered too quickly, so he finally sent the Rahkshi. If there had been a Toa of magnetism among them, they'd probably have overpowered them even more quickly (a Toa of magnetism/iron could telekinetically move Cahdok to one side of the island and Gahdok to the other, right? And force the Bohrok to fire their Krana nowhere in particular?), but then the Makuta would probably have had even more tricks up his metaphorical sleeve.

Be careful with this: Makuta was trying to make the Toa think that they were beating him, so he had to walk a thin line between presenting a realistic-seeming challenge to the Toa, but he also had to make it seem like they were winning. Throwing Rahi, Bohrok, and Rahkshi after them proved to be a challenge for the Toa, but one that he knew they could defeat. 

 

In the metaphorical Fa-Toa situation, the enemies would be too easy to defeat, which would make Makuta look like he was throwing the fight (dude, you have 42 kraata powers and the resources of an entire island and evil lair at your disposal, can't you do better?). It actually had to look like that he was really trying to stop them with effective tools and weapons, and the Toa were just so amazing that he didn't have another plan when they defeated his latest pawns. Don't let him fool you too!

 

He also needed to kill time for Mata Nui's death to take place so he could do the spirit-swap needed to seize power; throwing pawns to delay them was a smart move for that - but it wouldn't be if the resident Fa-Toa could defeat them all in 10 minutes.

Edited October 6, 2014 by fishers64

[Regitnui]

The Makuta would maybe have skipped infecting Rahi and instead started stealthily infecting Matoran. Yes, the Fe-Toa could easily remove the masks, but then he'd be left with a bunch of comatose villagers, easy prey for Makuta's next scheme. If the Fe-Roa pulled a Lewa and refused to fight, the Makuta could have the matoran kill him, or return him to Makuta for more "personal" treatment.

[Thormen]

Be careful with this: Makuta was trying to make the Toa think that they were beating him, so he had to walk a thin line between presenting a realistic-seeming challenge to the Toa, but he also had to make it seem like they were winning. Throwing Rahi, Bohrok, and Rahkshi after them proved to be a challenge for the Toa, but one that he knew they could defeat. 

 

[...]

 

He also needed to kill time for Mata Nui's death to take place so he could do the spirit-swap needed to seize power; throwing pawns to delay them was a smart move for that - but it wouldn't be if the resident Fa-Toa could defeat them all in 10 minutes.

Yeah, but that would have been a lot easier if the Toa Mata were just faced with the Rahi as they were in 2001. Don't forget the Mata were thinking in 2001 that they were going down to Mangaia to defeat Makuta and thereby awaken Mata Nui. Picture this: the Toa Mata gathered all their Kanohi, managed to overcome the Rahi, ventured down into the Makuta's lair and finally managed to defeat him. They would return back to the surface of Mata Nui in triumph, everybody would think the Makuta was gone and the Turaga would probably figure out that the Mata had to at least go down to Metru Nui to awaken Mata Nui, so they'd tell everybody about Metru Nui and return there. Then Dume would tell them Mata Nui was dying and you'd get the Ignition story arc where Matoro would die to revive Mata Nui and the Makuta would meanwhile take his place in the Core Processor. Then the Toa Mata, still thinking the Makuta had been vanquished, could go down to Karda Nui to wake Mata Nui up in the Codrex, and then... [insert picture of stars taking the shape of a Kraahkan ] Really the only reason it didn't go down that way was because Mata Nui wasn't quite close enough to death at the end of 2001, meaning the Makuta had clearly not made the Rahi threat big enough.

 

In the metaphorical Fa-Toa situation, the enemies would be too easy to defeat, which would make Makuta look like he was throwing the fight (dude, you have 42 kraata powers and the resources of an entire island and evil lair at your disposal, can't you do better?). It actually had to look like that he was really trying to stop them with effective tools and weapons, and the Toa were just so amazing that he didn't have another plan when they defeated his latest pawns. Don't let him fool you too!

I don't think it would look like he was throwing the fight if a Toa of magnetism was actually too powerful for him. That would make his fake defeat all the more realistic IMO. The Matoran have eyes too, if they see a Toa of magnetism knocking the masks off Rahi by simply waving his hand around like he's some kind of Jedi they'd assume this Toa would be really powerful, making it all the more realistic that this Toa would defeat the Makuta.

 

In any case, I agree the Makuta would probably come up with another threat such as the one Regitnui mentioned, or he might have even summoned organic Rahi ('cause I'm not liking the odds of a Toa of magnetism or iron against the Ancient Sea Behemoth).

 

Edit: Fixed smiley.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Thormen

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

Keep in mind that Makuta also has magnetism powers, too. 

[Thormen]

Keep in mind that Makuta also has magnetism powers, too. 

 

That's true, but how would that have helped him here? His goal was not to defeat the Toa Mata, but to delay them. The Makuta would only be able to use this power during the final battle in Mangaia. During the final battle, he could have used his power over magnetism to either defeat the Toa Mata (which he didn't want to do) or keep the battle going on for weeks, and I don't think he'd want to do that either since the Toa Mata could get fatigued and he would have no good excuse not to kill them at that point. What the Makuta would need was not to have useful powers against Toa of iron/magnetism himself, but he would need minions with such powers, since minions are expendable. If he had minions that were more powerful, but still weaker than the Toa Mata, the minions would end up delaying the Toa Mata for a longer period of time.

[fishers64]

Yeah, but that would have been a lot easier if the Toa Mata were just faced with the Rahi as they were in 2001. Don't forget the Mata were thinking in 2001 that they were going down to Mangaia to defeat Makuta and thereby awaken Mata Nui.

Yes, but they were wrong.

Picture this: the Toa Mata gathered all their Kanohi, managed to overcome the Rahi, ventured down into the Makuta's lair and finally managed to defeat him. They would return back to the surface of Mata Nui in triumph, everybody would think the Makuta was gone and the Turaga would probably figure out that the Mata had to at least go down to Metru Nui to awaken Mata Nui, so they'd tell everybody about Metru Nui and return there. Then Dume would tell them Mata Nui was dying and you'd get the Ignition story arc where Matoro would die to revive Mata Nui and the Makuta would meanwhile take his place in the Core Processor. Then the Toa Mata, still thinking the Makuta had been vanquished, could go down to Karda Nui to wake Mata Nui up in the Codrex, and then... [insert picture of stars taking the shape of a Kraahkan ] Really the only reason it didn't go down that way was because Mata Nui wasn't quite close enough to death at the end of 2001, meaning the Makuta had clearly not made the Rahi threat big enough.

Yes, but wouldn't that paint a picture of Makuta as an awfully weak villain? Going straight into the Ignition story arc from 2001 would make the Makuta look like a wimp who couldn't hold his own in a fight.  By the time Makuta was talking to Matoro, I think some of us would have cued in to the fact that the Makuta wasn't really opposing the Mata or behind the Piraka...

 

I don't think it would look like he was throwing the fight if a Toa of magnetism was actually too powerful for him. That would make his fake defeat all the more realistic IMO. The Matoran have eyes too, if they see a Toa of magnetism knocking the masks off Rahi by simply waving his hand around like he's some kind of Jedi they'd assume this Toa would be really powerful, making it all the more realistic that this Toa would defeat the Makuta.

Possible. 

 

 

Keep in mind that Makuta also has magnetism powers, too.

 

That's true, but how would that have helped him here? His goal was not to defeat the Toa Mata, but to delay them. The Makuta would only be able to use this power during the final battle in Mangaia. During the final battle, he could have used his power over magnetism to either defeat the Toa Mata (which he didn't want to do) or keep the battle going on for weeks, and I don't think he'd want to do that either since the Toa Mata could get fatigued and he would have no good excuse not to kill them at that point. What the Makuta would need was not to have useful powers against Toa of iron/magnetism himself, but he would need minions with such powers, since minions are expendable. If he had minions that were more powerful, but still weaker than the Toa Mata, the minions would end up delaying the Toa Mata for a longer period of time.

 

How about Rahkshi of Magnetism?

[Thormen]

Yes, but they were wrong.

So? They were wrong about having defeated the Makuta in 2008 as well. It didn't stop them from awakening Mata Nui and playing right into his hands.

 

Yes, but wouldn't that paint a picture of Makuta as an awfully weak villain? Going straight into the Ignition story arc from 2001 would make the Makuta look like a wimp who couldn't hold his own in a fight. By the time Makuta was talking to Matoro, I think some of us would have cued in to the fact that the Makuta wasn't really opposing the Mata or behind the Piraka...

We already knew he was behind the Piraka during the Ignition story and it was pretty clear the Makuta wasn't really opposing the Mata or the Mahri when he just left Jaller and Hahli alone at the end of 2007. And as you mentioned he even helped Matoro at that time. We all knew there was some mysterious master plan the Makuta had at the time (the Mutran Chronicles actually said that explicitedly), we were just waiting for the plan to be revealed at the very end and for the Toa Mata to foil it at the last moment.

 

How about Rahkshi of Magnetism?

Oh right, is that what RahkshiToa was referring to? Either way, that's true. He could use those.

[Jonathan Crane]

In addition to the previous comments I have made, do you guys think Fe-Toa also have limited Magnetism abilities?

[fishers64]

In addition to the previous comments I have made, do you guys think Fe-Toa also have limited Magnetism abilities?

Not magnetism abilities directly. Using their telekinetic control of metal they could do things similar to Magnetism, although it could probably be more of a mental strain. 

 

They also probably could make magnetic metal, though they wouldn't be able to control the magnetic force of it after they made it. I'm not sure about this - they might make a metal and need a Fa-Toa to magnetize it. Not sure. 

[Jonathan Crane]

 

In addition to the previous comments I have made, do you guys think Fe-Toa also have limited Magnetism abilities?

Not magnetism abilities directly. Using their telekinetic control of metal they could do things similar to Magnetism, although it could probably be more of a mental strain. 

 

They also probably could make magnetic metal, though they wouldn't be able to control the magnetic force of it after they made it. I'm not sure about this - they might make a metal and need a Fa-Toa to magnetize it. Not sure. 

 

That's what I thought, but I wasn't 100% sure

[Thormen]

Basically the way magnetism works is that a piece of metal consists of billions of little metal atoms. Each of these atoms is a little magnet in itself, but normally all the atoms point in different directions and cancel each other out so the overall piece of metal doesn't seem magnetic. However, when a lot these atoms are rotated so they point in the same direction, they don't cancel each other out anymore but bundle their magnetic power and turn the entire piece of metal into a magnet.

 

IMO that's where the answer lies: Yes a Toa of iron could turn a piece of metal into a magnet, if he has the mental capacity, the patience and the concentration to turn billions of atoms in the right direction. They would probably find an easier solution to the problem at hand.

[Jonathan Crane]

Basically the way magnetism works is that a piece of metal consists of billions of little metal atoms. Each of these atoms is a little magnet in itself, but normally all the atoms point in different directions and cancel each other out so the overall piece of metal doesn't seem magnetic. However, when a lot these atoms are rotated so they point in the same direction, they don't cancel each other out anymore but bundle their magnetic power and turn the entire piece of metal into a magnet.

 

IMO that's where the answer lies: Yes a Toa of iron could turn a piece of metal into a magnet, if he has the mental capacity, the patience and the concentration to turn billions of atoms in the right direction. They would probably find an easier solution to the problem at hand.

Alright. that answers my question. thanks

[Regitnui]

Personally, I think a Vo-Toa wielding protosteel could create an electromagnet, but wouldn't have any further control of the magnetism besides on and off. In fact, my Vo-Toa MoC wields a staff with that power, to 'catch' rhotuka and similar objects.