Ignika Question

[T.B.O.C]

I was reading around on BionicleSector01, and found this on the Ignika page:

It is impossible to create a Great, Noble, or Matoran version of the Mask of Life, as a weaker version would not be able to contain the power.[/size]

I get the Great and Noble versions, as they are powered masks, but the matoran version is what gets me. It would be completely plausible to create a Matoran version, as they are just powerless masks crafted to look like other masks.The only problem I can foresee with this is if said matoran becomes a Toa, and the mask would certainly not become an Ignika. But other than that, why would that be impossible?EDIT: For some stupid reason, it has a size tag in my quote, even though I didn't put that there, this editing system really isn't working for me... Edited February 11, 2012 by T.B.O.C

[Paleo]

I think what the author of the page on BS01 is trying to get at is that you can't replicate the Ignika, and that the mask is more powerful than any Matoran, Great, or Noble mask.

[fishers64]

It's possible to make a Matoran version of the Mask with the right Kanoka disks...or shape any combination thereof in the Ignika's shape. However, such an action would not be practical. No Matoran in his right mind would want to have the shape of that mask on his face, and when he became a Toa the Mask would legitimately become whatever the power it actually was. As I recall, that was a trick that Hakann and Reidak were thinking up: create fake Mask of Life to fool other Piraka and bail with the real one. I think the main point was that the Great Beings made the Mask of Life, and the Matoran couldn't just throw some Kanoka disks together and make another version of it with its exact power on a lower scale. That would end the 2006 problem nicely...we just make six "Great Masks of Life", give them to the Nuva, transport them to the Core, use, end of problem with six massively weakened Toa Nuva. They actually had to find The Mask and use The Mask and have Matoro sacrifice himself for the use of The Mask.

[a goose]

Actually, Matoran masks are not powerless.When worn by a Matoran capable of becoming a Toa, and a Toa Stone is used, the mask becomes Great.You could create a mask that looked like the Ignika for a Matoran, but you couldn't create an Ignika for a Matoran.

[T.B.O.C]

Actually, Matoran masks are not powerless.When worn by a Matoran capable of becoming a Toa, and a Toa Stone is used, the mask becomes Great.You could create a mask that looked like the Ignika for a Matoran, but you couldn't create an Ignika for a Matoran.

Well, yeah that's what I meant. And I believe Matoran masks are powerless, but they transform into Great versions of that mask when the turn into Toa. And anyway, you can have masks that look others, but aren't that mask. Norik's mask is carved to look like a Kiril, while its actually a Pehkui. Made from shrink Kanoka, made to liek like a mask of regneration. Wouldn't neccesarily be an Ignika in tyhe sense of power.

[Makuta Matata]

Well, Matoran masks are classified by their capabilities to turn into Great or Noble masks of a creatin kind. Therefore, it is impossible to create a matoran mask of Life because it would not turn into a Great mask.It is possible, however, to create a mask shped like the Ignika.

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

Masks can have any power, look at the masks on Toa Iruini for example his mask is a quick-travel powered one but he turned the shape in respect of someone he admired.But the "Ultimate Masks" as i categorize the Ignika Kanohi, Vahi along with Karzahni and Artakhas masks can probably only be fitted into one mask by a skilled craftsman or great being... because the "original mask frame" is destined to contain the said power and any attempt at duplicating the power inside is futile,

Edited February 12, 2012 by .-:Kopaka Nuva:-.

[T.B.O.C]

Well, Matoran masks are classified by their capabilities to turn into Great or Noble masks of a creatin kind. Therefore, it is impossible to create a matoran mask of Life because it would not turn into a Great mask.It is possible, however, to create a mask shped like the Ignika.

But isn't that what it is? Matoran masks are powerless Kanohi with the possibility of becoming Great, however not all matoran are destined to become Toa.So I guess it's only possible to craft a mask to look like the Ignika, but not a Matoran one, then?

[Raph]

Maybe you can create mask with the SHAPE of Ignika, but not with the power as Ignika has.

[CroMagnonMan]

So I guess it's only possible to craft a mask to look like the Ignika, but not a Matoran one, then?

The difference being what? If a Matoran Mask of Life was created, what would make it a Mask of Life if it has no powers?Seemingly, the only reason Matoran masks turn into Great Kanohi upon Toa transformation is that the Disks used to create them give them a certain unique make-up, even if they don't leave the masks any powers. In that sense they have "powers", or the signature characteristics that determine they are one type of mask over another. So just making a powerless mask and calling it a Matoran Mask of Life wouldn't make it so unless it was in its make-up, which would require fashioning it from something with that power, either a Disk or (dubiously) some other power source.

It's possible to make a Matoran version of the Mask with the right Kanoka disks...

Is it, though? Taking for granted that such Disks could be fashioned, only low level Disks can be used to create Matoran masks (according to BS01, the power "drains" from the Disk through the forging process -- something that presumably doesn't happen with higher level Disks). Evidently, if Noble or Great Kanohi are too weak, a low level Disk would be incapable of containing the power of Life as well.~QMark

[Makuta Matata]

Well, Matoran masks are classified by their capabilities to turn into Great or Noble masks of a creatin kind. Therefore, it is impossible to create a matoran mask of Life because it would not turn into a Great mask.It is possible, however, to create a mask shped like the Ignika.

But isn't that what it is? Matoran masks are powerless Kanohi with the possibility of becoming Great, however not all matoran are destined to become Toa.So I guess it's only possible to craft a mask to look like the Ignika, but not a Matoran one, then?

Yeah, pretty much.

[bonesiii]

To add to the above, Matoran masks, at least in Metru Nui, are made out of low-level Kanoka Disks with actual powers, and the process of turning them into masks drains them of a certain amount of power. This occurs with all disk to mask transformations, while also making the power more flexible and easier to control.So it took Kanoka of the highest level to get the Legendary Element of time for the Disk of Time, and then that could be made into a mask. Lower-level disks of the same makeup would make some other power (though possibly time-related... or possibly totally random), because the high level was actually part of the formula.

No Matoran in his right mind would want to have the shape of that mask on his face

Why do you say that? I know of no reason for it. They can have masks shaped like anything. If a Matoran liked that shape, why not? Especially if (nowadays) they saw it as, for example, honoring Tahu who used it to help stop the Kal. Honoring heroes is a major reason they seem to pick mask shapes.[Edit: Um... how did I not notice this is about the Ignika, not the Vahi, lol. Yeah, I dunno if there was a mixture for the Ignika or if the GBs programmed it directly. Point about the honoring works for Ignika too though.] Edited February 14, 2012 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

No Matoran in his right mind would want to have the shape of that mask on his face

Why do you say that? I know of no reason for it. They can have masks shaped like anything. If a Matoran liked that shape, why not? Especially if (nowadays) they saw it as, for example, honoring Tahu who used it to help stop the Kal. Honoring heroes is a major reason they seem to pick mask shapes.

And the Ignika isn't really a hero...it was Mata Nui, although I could see the association. Mostly, I would see them honoring Mata Nui by not making the mask that shape. The mask is no longer special and unique to Mata Nui if a bunch of random Matoran run around with the Ignika on their face. It's also a sign of arrogance, actually...the "I'm as good as the Great Spirit" or "I'm so good I should have the Mask of Life on my face." I would imagine it to be extremely inconsiderate.

[bonesiii]

I must note as said in my edit above, somehow impossibly I thought this was about the Vahi lol.... :blink:Anywho, I don't see why it should be seen as somehow an insult or arrogant to honor Mata Nui, when it is not seen that way for Toa. Shouldn't that principle apply in smaller amount for lesser heroes? But the exact opposite is the case; they see it as honoring heroes. So wouldn't it apply all the more for Mata Nui?Also, Toa Ignika was a hero, albeit not one very many people would be personally aware of.

Edited February 14, 2012 by bonesiii

[CroMagnonMan]

Anywho, I don't see why it should be seen as somehow an insult or arrogant to honor Mata Nui, when it is not seen that way for Toa. Shouldn't that principle apply in smaller amount for lesser heroes? But the exact opposite is the case; they see it as honoring heroes. So wouldn't it apply all the more for Mata Nui?

Perhaps one thing to be considered is the universality of the hero. It seems like the heroes that Matoran/Toa honor by wearing their masks are ones that they hold a special respect for, even if others respect them to a certain extent, rather than someone such as Mata Nui who would be held in equal esteem by a large number of Matoran. For instance, while all the Matoran surely respect and honor all of the Toa Nuva, a Matoran might still feel particularly drawn to a certain Toa's attributes, tactics or heroic deeds; with Mata Nui, however, the traits that one Matoran respects will be the ones everyone else respects. So the act of honoring him in such a way would have a different significance to it, and it could be that Matoran might feel that such people are in a position be honored equally among everyone rather than in a personal and yet public manner -- more inappropriate than straight up arrogant.Then again, a Ta-Matoran wearing a Hau could have the same problem, since all Ta-Matoran (at least from Mata Nui) probably feel the same pride for Tahu. You wouldn't be making a "point" or a statement by wearing such a mask -- you would be the one person stating what everyone else is already thinking. Then there would be the matter that not everyone can wear a Hau, so what would be your personal motivation or right to wear one as opposed to everyone else? (Perhaps if you were personally saved by him on a special occasion, or if he taught you something individually...) On the other hand, a Matoran from another class or region wearing a Hau to honor Tahu would probably be received quite well if they went amongst Ta-Matoran, since that would be a "unique" honor.And in a way, since Matoran cannot hold every hero dear in their minds at once, wearing the mask of a hero is like a reminder of that hero, a nod to their existence (especially if the hero is passed on or long absent). So wearing an Ignika would be like saying, "Hey, remember to honor Mata Nui... you know, the giant robot that sustained our existence for thousands of years inside of him and then saved an entire planet from destruction" -- it's kind of obvious, especially since the Matoran were busy honoring him in their daily work during all that time and will undoubtedly retain the Virtues that they still associate with him. I would imagine Matoran might perceive that as presumptive or simply foolish of the Matoran wearing the mask.The same might be said of someone like Dume, at least when he was the only Turaga in charge -- it would be like saying, "I'm honoring the leader of our entire city," when such things would be implicit among the Matoran population in their daily lives, as they all lived under his rule. On the other hand, wearing an Ignika to honor the Ignika would be different, since you yourself pointed out that not many people are personally aware of him. That's how I would look at it, anyway. ~QMark

[bonesiii]

Well, let's keep in mind masks aren't just something everybody says "hey it's all the rage ya gotta have it. Here's one for just nineteen ninety five!!!" Someone only dons a new mask if they have just been formed, or if they lost their old one.Maskmakers would thus see the making of a new mask as a much more important thing than what these ideas of arrogance or insult seem to imply, and would be highly likely to mold them after the most recent heroes they have seen. Of course, it's possible there are enough backup masks already found in Metru Nui and brought out that they do not need to do this, and for now no new Matoran are coming into being as far as I know, plus they're mostly at peace so masks probably aren't breaking often.But if a Matoran did need a new mask, nobody would think they were being pretentious -- they would be accepting whatever shape the maskmakers had just made in honor of a hero, and would have good reason to be grateful to the most recent hero, including Mata Nui, for the peace that enabled more masks to be made for them, and possibly for them to be made to begin with. In other words people would see it more as something that puts a date on the Matoran -- "the one with the Ignika is a new guy" or as a mark of battle earned justly "one who faced some enemy that broke his mask".Admittedly it might be weird if it was a Jar-Jar type explanation for how their mask broke though. Even there, though, it's symbolic of a hero's protection, because they need masks to keep conscious.

Edited February 14, 2012 by bonesiii

[Voxumo]

well i thinl creating a matoran version would mainly just look like it's shape. I would see it similiar to copper masks of victory. no power but still a mask.

[T.B.O.C]

well i thinl creating a matoran version would mainly just look like it's shape. I would see it similiar to copper masks of victory. no power but still a mask.

I think what's been decided is that it is not possible to make a Matoran Ignika, considering it would have to be in a disk combination that could create masks of life, and have the possibility to become great. The Copper Mask analogy you have there would work with powerless masks, such as Copper masks of victory, however.

[fishers64]

well i thinl creating a matoran version would mainly just look like it's shape. I would see it similiar to copper masks of victory. no power but still a mask.

I think what's been decided is that it is not possible to make a Matoran Ignika, considering it would have to be in a disk combination that could create masks of life, and have the possibility to become great. The Copper Mask analogy you have there would work with powerless masks, such as Copper masks of victory, however.

Yes, but it is possible to carve a mask into the Ignika's shape, it just wouldn't have the Ignika's power should the wearer become a Toa.

[T.B.O.C]

well i thinl creating a matoran version would mainly just look like it's shape. I would see it similiar to copper masks of victory. no power but still a mask.

I think what's been decided is that it is not possible to make a Matoran Ignika, considering it would have to be in a disk combination that could create masks of life, and have the possibility to become great. The Copper Mask analogy you have there would work with powerless masks, such as Copper masks of victory, however.

Yes, but it is possible to carve a mask into the Ignika's shape, it just wouldn't have the Ignika's power should the wearer become a Toa.

Good, I guess this topic can be closed then? I'll report it!

[bonesiii]

well i thinl creating a matoran version would mainly just look like it's shape. I would see it similiar to copper masks of victory. no power but still a mask.

I think what's been decided is that it is not possible to make a Matoran Ignika, considering it would have to be in a disk combination that could create masks of life, and have the possibility to become great. The Copper Mask analogy you have there would work with powerless masks, such as Copper masks of victory, however.

Yes, but it is possible to carve a mask into the Ignika's shape, it just wouldn't have the Ignika's power should the wearer become a Toa.

Good, I guess this topic can be closed then? I'll report it!

Topic closed by starter request.