Why Didn't The Toa Nuva Think Of That?

[Toatapio Nuva]

I recently realized something peculiar about the powerless Toa Nuva in 2003 and the Bohrok-Kal. The Toa Nuva succeeded in disabling a Bohrok-Kal two times (plus once a group of Matoran did the same without any Toa). They managed to retrieve their Krana-Kal. The Bohrok Va later gave new ones to the fallen Kal.The Bohrok-Kal were carrying with them the Toa Nuva symbols, which is why the Nuva had lost their powers. So the quesiton is this: when the Toa Nuva managed to disable a Bohrok-Kal, why didn't they retrieve the specific symbol the Bohrok-Kal was carrying? Sure they were interested in the Krana-Kal, but why not take back the symbols while they could? Then at least some Toa would've got their elemental powers back.How come didn't our brave heroes think of something as obvious as that?

[bonesiii]

The only incident I recall off the top of my head was the one in this comic, and I'm pretty sure Greg confirmed the Kal was rekranaed too quickly to get the symbol back. It could also be that in that instance and in others the Kal didn't have the symbols physically with them. It isn't shown with that Kal in that comic. Perhaps when it sensed Toa coming it set the symbol down among foliage and moved to drive the Toa away, so it could fight more freely and just in case they did temporarily defeat it.Admittedly moments later all six Kal are shown entering the tunnel to the Bahrag without the symbols, yet at the end of the path they mysteriously have them again, so the lack of the symbol being shown would seemingly have to be artistic forgetfulness in that case. But in the earlier scene it could have actually not been right there.I don't recall the other two you referred to; could you be more specific?

Edited April 11, 2012 by bonesiii

[Pahrak Model ZX]

Because in epic stories, the villains must always get within a centimeter of completing their plans before they're allowed to be defeated, and if the Nuva Symbols had been recovered, the Kal would've fallen much sooner.

[Dralcax]

The Kal probably had them safely in hammerspace when the Toa were fighting them.

[Toatapio Nuva]

The only incident I recall off the top of my head was the one in this comic, and I'm pretty sure Greg confirmed the Kal was rekranaed too quickly to get the symbol back. It could also be that in that instance and in others the Kal didn't have the symbols physically with them. It isn't shown with that Kal in that comic. Perhaps when it sensed Toa coming it set the symbol down among foliage and moved to drive the Toa away, so it could fight more freely and just in case they did temporarily defeat it.Admittedly moments later all six Kal are shown entering the tunnel to the Bahrag without the symbols, yet at the end of the path they mysteriously have them again, so the lack of the symbol being shown would seemingly have to be artistic forgetfulness in that case. But in the earlier scene it could have actually not been right there.I don't recall the other two you referred to; could you be more specific?

In Bionicle Chronicles #3: Makuta's Revenge Tahu and Jala manage to dekrana Pahrak-Kal. After a short while a Gahlok Va arrives to replace the Krana-Kal. Also, in the comic which has the Onua, Pohatu, Tahnok-Kal encounter, Turaga Nokama says that a group of Matoran using Boxors managed to dekrana another Bohrok-Kal. Yet they didn't recover the symbol.If the Bohrok-Kal weren't carrying the symbols with them, the Toa Nuva should've had their powers, no? As I recall, the powers were gone only when an enemy of the Toa Nuva had them with him. So if they just laid the symbols in a bush or something, it wouldn't have had the desirable effect on their part.Pahrak Cantus is probably right, but it would be nice to have some story explanation for this as well.

[Makuta Matata]

I don't think they would have had time. I mean, after Jaller took one down in Makuta's Revenge, a Bohrok Va was there in a few seconds with a new Krana-Kal.

[Elrond of Rivendell]

The only incident I recall off the top of my head was the one in this comic, and I'm pretty sure Greg confirmed the Kal was rekranaed too quickly to get the symbol back. It could also be that in that instance and in others the Kal didn't have the symbols physically with them. It isn't shown with that Kal in that comic. Perhaps when it sensed Toa coming it set the symbol down among foliage and moved to drive the Toa away, so it could fight more freely and just in case they did temporarily defeat it.Admittedly moments later all six Kal are shown entering the tunnel to the Bahrag without the symbols, yet at the end of the path they mysteriously have them again, so the lack of the symbol being shown would seemingly have to be artistic forgetfulness in that case. But in the earlier scene it could have actually not been right there.I don't recall the other two you referred to; could you be more specific?

In Bionicle Chronicles #3: Makuta's Revenge Tahu and Jala manage to dekrana Pahrak-Kal. After a short while a Gahlok Va arrives to replace the Krana-Kal. Also, in the comic which has the Onua, Pohatu, Tahnok-Kal encounter, Turaga Nokama says that a group of Matoran using Boxors managed to dekrana another Bohrok-Kal. Yet they didn't recover the symbol.If the Bohrok-Kal weren't carrying the symbols with them, the Toa Nuva should've had their powers, no? As I recall, the powers were gone only when an enemy of the Toa Nuva had them with him. So if they just laid the symbols in a bush or something, it wouldn't have had the desirable effect on their part.Pahrak Cantus is probably right, but it would be nice to have some story explanation for this as well.

This is another one of those loose ends in the C.A. Hapka/GregF canonization. And no, the toa lost their powers when their symbols were removed from their suvas'. The comic problem probably was just artist forgetfullness.-Bane

[P~M]

I thought that their powers went away as soon as the symbols were removed from their respective Suva... but I'm probably wrong.E: Ninja'd, and case in point.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Captain Viridian

[bonesiii]

Because in epic stories, the villains must always get within a centimeter of completing their plans before they're allowed to be defeated, and if the Nuva Symbols had been recovered, the Kal would've fallen much sooner.

Actually even if three had been recovered, the other three Kal -- plus the rekranaed three -- could have probably retaken them easily. It wouldn't have accomplished much to just take the symbols back -- the Kal needed to be permanently defeated.

The Kal probably had them safely in hammerspace when the Toa were fighting them.

Lol, that works great for fanfics, but FTR, Greg specifically denied a request from me years ago to canonize a Bionicle hammerspace. We can probably assume, though, that once they started down the tunnel they must have had them attached to their backs like in one of the animations (if mem serves), and the comic artist just didn't show it.

In Bionicle Chronicles #3: Makuta's Revenge Tahu and Jala manage to dekrana Pahrak-Kal. After a short while a Gahlok Va arrives to replace the Krana-Kal. Also, in the comic which has the Onua, Pohatu, Tahnok-Kal encounter, Turaga Nokama says that a group of Matoran using Boxors managed to dekrana another Bohrok-Kal. Yet they didn't recover the symbol.If the Bohrok-Kal weren't carrying the symbols with them, the Toa Nuva should've had their powers, no? As I recall, the powers were gone only when an enemy of the Toa Nuva had them with him. So if they just laid the symbols in a bush or something, it wouldn't have had the desirable effect on their part.Pahrak Cantus is probably right, but it would be nice to have some story explanation for this as well.

Well, I don't have time right now, but someone should look up the BC3 example's specific wording.And no, as long as the symbols are "in the possession of the enemy" the Nuva lack powers, and "in the possession of allies" they have them. Just as the Matoran could put them on a shelf somewhere and the Nuva would keep their powers, if the Kal were to do the same basic thing, the Nuva would still not have their powers. Basically it appears that whoever touched the symbol last determines who owns it.So yes, laying the symbol down under a bush would work fine. Edited April 11, 2012 by bonesiii

[P~M]

Dang, just got bonesiii'd. Oh well.Funny, I thought it said in the book that if it were taken out of the suva, their powers would disappear.... Lemme go check.Edit: Toa Onua says, "As long as my icon remained in the village, my power remained strong. Now that the symbol is gone, so are my powers." This seems to suggest a connection between the Toa's home village and the symbol.Edit 2: On BS01, the article states, "The Bohrok-Kal stole the symbols in an attempt to unlock the Nuva Cube and free the Bahrag. After the removal of the symbols from the Suva, the Toa Nuva lost their Elemental Powers."

Edited April 11, 2012 by Captain Viridian

[bonesiii]

Dang, just got bonesiii'd. Oh well.Funny, I thought it said in the book that if it were taken out of the suva, their powers would disappear.... Lemme go check.Edit: Toa Onua says, "As long as my icon remained in the village, my power remained strong. Now that the symbol is gone, so are my powers." This seems to suggest a connection between the Toa's home village and the symbol.Edit 2: On BS01, the article states, "The Bohrok-Kal stole the symbols in an attempt to unlock the Nuva Cube and free the Bahrag. After the removal of the symbols from the Suva, the Toa Nuva lost their Elemental Powers."

When you say "Funny, I thought... etc." do you mean that you think what I said is different from what you're saying? It isn't -- it's just more detailed about how it applies to more situations (including now that the symbols are on SM).In 2003, the Suvas were basically the "shelves" that the symbols had been teleported to as soon as the Toa Mata became Nuva, and the Matoran left them there. They could have moved the symbols anywhere else as long as they still owned them and the Nuva would have been fine. But as soon as the Kal snatched the symbols, the Kal now owned them. That simply happened to be "taking them off the Suva" in that case.And Onua was probably just summarizing there. The powers didn't wait to go away until the Kal stepped beyond the village; it was immediate as soon as the Kal were holding the symbols, regardless of where that was. Then the Kal left the villages, so you could sum up the events that way.It's possible, though, that if a Kal had dropped a symbol on the village floor and left for no reason, the power might go right back to the Nuva (since the village itself is clearly in the Matoran's possession). That could work on the same principle as the symbols appearing in the village apparently worked. But not necessarily -- no enemy had yet touched the symbol prior to that, so I doubt it -- it seems cleaner to presume it's all about who last touched it. Edited April 11, 2012 by bonesiii

[P~M]

Bonesiii'd again!I see what you're saying, and I think it could be interpreted either way (although your interpretation makes more sense, lol), as the language used in the book isn't exactly specific. It's... flexible, and possibly just poetic license.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Let's not forget that in the comic, Onua and Pohatu ambushed Tahnok-Kal. There was no way it could've hidden the symbol. And I don't see why the Toa Nuva would not recover at least some of the symbols even though it wouldn't stop the Bohrok-Kal. With a few of them having their elemental powers back, they could've fought better against the Kal.

[bonesiii]

Let's not forget that in the comic, Onua and Pohatu ambushed Tahnok-Kal. There was no way it could've hidden the symbol. And I don't see why the Toa Nuva would not recover at least some of the symbols even though it wouldn't stop the Bohrok-Kal. With a few of them having their elemental powers back, they could've fought better against the Kal.

Well, you raise a valid point, but the wording isn't crystal clear. It really doesn't read like an ambush to me at all. Onua walks up to the Kal and it has a disinterested conversation with him before they attack it. It reads more like the Kal didn't believe they could defeat it, but might have known at any time prior to Onua talking to it that they were coming.Also, notice that the krana distracts them with conversation. Let's assume, for sake of discussion, the symbol was attached to the Kal's back and the artist forgot it here too. When the discussion turns back to their powers, Pohatu immediately notices the Kal is gone, and is clearly surprised. So even if the symbol was there, they probably assumed they HAD just gotten it back; that the Kal was defeated. So they were thinking, "hey we can do this with the others and--- oh wait this krana is saying we're too late..." and by the time they look back, they realize the Kal slipped away.Either way, it's quite plausible they wouldn't have picked it up, and adding that little delay into the story would have served no interesting purpose -- it just zaps them and runs away with it, same basic outcome. I can see objecting that this is authorial guiding, and maybe it is a bit. It's a comic with limited space, whattaya expect? But really, the way it's written it looks plausible to me that they wouldn't have thought there was any rush to snatch the symbol up. And the krana probably spoke specifically to distract them, either way.There's also the question of whose symbol this Kal would be carrying. Off the top of my head I dunno -- probably Tahu's -- but regardless, if it wasn't either Pohatu's or Onua's it wouldn't help them immediately so it makes sense they'd be more easily distracted from it. Edited April 12, 2012 by bonesiii

[Toatapio Nuva]

Well, I guess that will have to be enough for me. They were simply too distracted. The story team didn't really think through this whole symbol thing, but that's understandable. Thanks for providing me with a fairly convincing answer.

[Katuko]

I believe Nokama is the one to blame for distracting Onua and Pohatu, since they did hurry to remove the Krana. Apparently they also thought it wouldn't be getting back up again so soon, since they are surprised when Tahnok-Kal is suddenly gone. Still, one would think that instead of speaking with the Krana (which did just spout some typical "this won't help you" villain smack-talk), they would pry the vital Nuva symbol off the Bohrok.Of course, given that the Bohrok-Kal are searching the island for the Bahrag and seem mostly disinterested in fighting, I think it can be assumed that they stashed the symbols elsewhere while searching, since it would make little sense to prance around with your mission-vital objects if there's a possibility of them being stolen. Since the Kal were indeed disabled a few times (though reactivated by Bohrok Va), then at least after the first time they should have realized the potential for failure. And these are robots. They know their statistics.I must ask, though: how can a bunch of Matoran, even with Boxors, disable Bohrok with powers like these? Unless it was only the Toa's lack of elemental powers that made them a threat in the first place, I'm having a hard time seeing Boxor stand up to electric shocks, gravity manipulation and stuff. Perhaps Lehvak- could have been punched down, given that its powers were the most useless of the bunch, but the rest all have ways of easily defending themselves. Eh, I'm probably reading too much into this. Their sheer pride and arrogance may have led them to not defend at all against the Boxor attack until the first lucky swing caught their faceplate or something.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

I believe Nokama is the one to blame for distracting Onua and Pohatu, since they did hurry to remove the Krana.

It's not one or the other -- it's both, but the Krana clearly starts it, and she walks up at that moment and continues the conversation. She probably would have talked to them anyways since she was headed that way, but in those few seconds prior to her arrival the Toa might have grabbed the symbol if the Krana hadn't shocked them with its words.But yeah, that's a good theory about the stashaway. I hadn't considered that they might not know the way to the Bahrag. I do kinda doubt it though. They were made for this -- but it's possible, especially since the Kal probably never had to be activated before.Yeah, a lucky first shot with a disk or even a punch would do it. Probably disk.

[Katuko]

Are you kidding? The fact that no one knew where the queens were located was half of the plot! In the first fights the Kal demanded to know where the Toa had hidden the Bahrag, and Tahnok's Krana-Kal did explicitly say "You are too late! Already, the Bohrok-Kal have learned where the Bahrag are hidden." Then Nokama comes to confirm it, (incidentally stating something I missed, namely that "our Boxors surprised (emphasis mine) a Bohrok-Kal long enough to steal his Krana", and the Nuva scramble to follow them after the Bohrok Va begin to return to their nests as well.If the Kal had known where the Bahrag were trapped, then there would be no reason for them to wander around the island without fighting the Toa or doing anything else really productive. They would have gone straight to the Bahrag's chamber and freed them, as was their "sole purpose", with the Toa none the wiser.A quick question, which may have been answered earlier: if the Nuva symbols had been used on the cube, what would happen, exactly? Obviously the Toa seal would dissolve and the cube along with it, but what of the symbols? I can't remember what was said about the Nuva freeing the Bahrag themselves, but I think they just used their powers directly. The Kal stole them because they apparently needed the same six elements that was used to form it in order to break it, plus it handily disabled the meddling Toa in the process. I am assuming that the symbols would not disintegrate, since they seem to be the Nuva's rechargeable elemental power batteries.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

Rightly.... Bad memory is a wonderful thing, isn't it? :PI wonder why they wouldn't have known. Perhaps bad memory affected them too, but you'd think elite rescue units would be programmed with such basic knowledge. On the other hand, I think the Bahrag made them by some kind of mutation so maybe there was no special programming. That would make sense I guess.

[Katuko]

There were many Bohrok nests, so if the Kal were created and/or stored in a chamber separate from the main Bahrag chamber, they might simply never have learned their exact location. Plus, the reason the Nuva thought the Bahrag were gone was, as Pohatu says, that the chamber collapsed. The Nuva fell into the protodermis trap, while the Bahrag disappeared elsewhere. Pahrak-Kal had to melt them a tunnel into the nest, so either he was very impatient or that part had been sealed off by the collapsing rock. When the Nuva exited after their transformation, they used their powers to do so. The Bohrok would usually have to walk, however.

[All Or None]

For the record, assuming the Kal didn't switch symbols:Tahnok-Kal had Gali's symbolGahlok-Kal had Lewa's symbolLehvak-Kal had Onua's symbolNuhvok-Kal had Kopaka's symbolPahrak-Kal had Pohatu's symboland Kohrak-Kal had Tahu's symbol.Also, we can't really trust the comic artwork. In one panel, Lehvak-Kal is hold Gali's symbol, in the very next it's holding Kopaka's.

[bonesiii]

There were many Bohrok nests, so if the Kal were created and/or stored in a chamber separate from the main Bahrag chamber, they might simply never have learned their exact location. Plus, the reason the Nuva thought the Bahrag were gone was, as Pohatu says, that the chamber collapsed. The Nuva fell into the protodermis trap, while the Bahrag disappeared elsewhere. Pahrak-Kal had to melt them a tunnel into the nest, so either he was very impatient or that part had been sealed off by the collapsing rock. When the Nuva exited after their transformation, they used their powers to do so. The Bohrok would usually have to walk, however.

Makes sense -- but doesn't that imply that the Kal knew roughly where the Bahrag were, just had to figure out how to get past the obstruction? If that is the case then it seems more doubtful they would store the symbols somewhere while searching, but possible I guess.Also, the Kal had to know somehow what their mission was, because when they woke up they had that conversation about plans, and worked always towards their goal. Also, how would they even know to steal the symbols? This one is even more confusing; normal Toa Seals aren't physical locking mechanisms like the cube, they're just built into the physics of the protocages.Perhaps they didn't know about the cube but figured the Toa might have used a protocage, and had some kind of sensors to realize the Nuva's powers had been moved into the symbols. Or all of the cube and power moving thing, including the EP tubes, might have been planned by destiny / the Order to ensure the Toa's safety. What would have happened if the powers had still been in the Toa, for example? I guess the Kal would have to take them hostage, and that probably wouldn't end well. If so then perhaps the Order added programming into the Kal to make sure they knew of the possibility of the cube and symbol, and knew how to recognize that it had happened.But another easier solution might be that Va scouted out where the Bahrag were, and knew the general location to tell the Kal. Maybe the Va even told the Kal their entire mission, but it's also possible the Bahrag told them when they were first made. :shrugs:How's this for a timeline theory?Bahrag create Kal, tell them their mission, and original location of Bahrag chamber. At some point either Bahrag or Order, or maybe destiny, lets them know or programs them to recognize the activation of the Nuva system.Stuff happens.Kal get awakened and immediately go to check that location, but find it in shambles, and they don't see the Bahrag. They see the open EP tubes and realize Nuva-ization has occured.They meet up with Va, who do some scouting for them on the surface to figure out where the symbols are, the Va report back.Then they have their meeting as shown in the comic. They go out, and at one point in the process of stealing the symbols demand to know where the Bahrag are, but at the same time, the Va are now scouting the tunnels.More stuff happens.Va find the Bahrag near their original location -- perhaps falling rock, for example, had knocked the protocage sideways like a billiards ball into a side-tunnel, then that tunnel had been obstructed. The Va might have found a more convenient direction of approach, which is where Pahrak-Kal decides to start his tunnel.The Krana says this to Pohatu and Onua, and then soon after the Toa chase the Kal down the tunnel, etc.If this is the case then I can imagine any of the three theories for why the Toa didn't get back the symbols, including that the Kal stored all the symbols somewhere else before Pahrak-Kal starts his tunnel. If so then all three de-kranaings mostly make sense.The one thing that doesn't fit the "they were all stored elsewhere while searching" theory is the Pohatu line, where as soon as the conversation turns to their powers he faces the Kal as if to grab the symbol then, and discovers the Kal is gone. It seems implied he was about to pick up the symbol then.There's also the question of how they knew a protocage had been made per se. But maybe that's the only way to defeat the Bahrag I guess; maybe the Kal would never awaken if one hadn't been made. Edited April 12, 2012 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

Also, we can't really trust the comic artwork. In one panel, Lehvak-Kal is hold Gali's symbol, in the very next it's holding Kopaka's.

Then we have the online Flash animations, in which Tahnok-Kal steals Tahu's symbol.The Kal's mission is to "awaken" the Bahrag, so presumably they activate if the Bahrag are unnaturally shut off from the horde. They were after all still conscious inside their little protodermis-bubble, and the Bohrok could operate without Krana, as shown when the Matoran use them to rebuild their villages and Tahu leads a swarm against Nuhvok-Kal. Only the Krana-Kal could operate independently of the Bahrag, along with the Bohrok Va, which doesn't use Krana either.There is the Krana Ca-Kal, however, whose description state "Seeker. Can sense the presence of the Bahrag and is linked with their minds." And yet the Bohrok-Kal were wandering the surface of the island, perhaps in order to find alternate entrances into the collapsed tunnels as you say. And with the existence of those, it becomes obvious that the Bahrag themselves might have communicated what happened with the Toa and the Nuva Cube. If not, then there it's still a simple matter of pattern recognition. The Bahrag see the cube hovering outside their prison, and telepathically communicates its existence and appearance to the Kal. They then scout and find the Nuva symbols bearing the same marks, one in each village's Toa Suva. So six Toa made the seal, and six Toa own symbols with the same designs as the cube's six sides. Computing... computing... match found. Set primary objective: obtain symbols and attempt interaction with cube.After that, if I were a Kal I imagine myself like I'm playing Fallout or Skyrim at that point (): My personal map (Seeker Krana) shows a Quest Marker on the exact spot I need to go, but the easiest way there is blocked by tons of rock. So I spend some time wandering around, trying to find out where to enter, at the same time messing around with the "random encounters" that try to stop me. Perhaps I underestimate one, and they beat me. Reload save (Bohrok Va rescue!) and try again.What I'm trying to say is that you are right, the Kal might have known the Bahrag's exact location, but simply been unable to reach them at first. They can't really burn straight down, given that they would be destroying part of Mata Nui's face that way (and unlike the Toa, they knew their directive). Your timeline proposal seems accurate enough, but I don't think they would need to know about the Nuva specifically. Since they apparently intended the EP pool as a death trap, i don't think the Order or anyone had really briefed them on the possibility of Nuva. But then again, the Kal accurately "analyzed" the Toa Kaita they faced as "Toa Nuva Kaita, threat level 9", though I think boasted that name when they first met.

[bonesiii]

There is the Krana Ca-Kal, however, whose description state "Seeker. Can sense the presence of the Bahrag and is linked with their minds." And yet the Bohrok-Kal were wandering the surface of the island, perhaps in order to find alternate entrances into the collapsed tunnels as you say. And with the existence of those, it becomes obvious that the Bahrag themselves might have communicated what happened with the Toa and the Nuva Cube. If not, then there it's still a simple matter of pattern recognition. The Bahrag see the cube hovering outside their prison, and telepathically communicates its existence and appearance to the Kal. They then scout and find the Nuva symbols bearing the same marks, one in each village's Toa Suva.

Very good points; makes sense.Perhaps the Kal who asked where the Bahrag are meant "you Nuva obviously got out of there somehow -- which way out did you use?" not knowing they hovered out as that area was collapsing, so the way the Nuva took was no longer open. I'm curious where this question was and the exact wording, though.

Since they apparently intended the EP pool as a death trap, i don't think the Order or anyone had really briefed them on the possibility of Nuva. But then again, the Kal accurately "analyzed" the Toa Kaita they faced as "Toa Nuva Kaita, threat level 9", though I think boasted that name when they first met.

A couple things here:1) Can you elaborate on the first clause here? Who do you mean by 'they'? I'm foggy on who exactly did put that there, but I remember (I think ) Greg saying the Bahrag didn't even know of the tubes, so it wasn't them. Also, Artakha apparently knew they would become Nuva (again, if really bad memory serves lol) and had the symbols ready, and maybe the Cube too, as well as the Kanohi Nuva, to teleport to the right spots. I think. And stuff. So I was under the impression it wasn't actually intended by anyone as a death trap, but simply could have been if someone besides the Toa Mata fell in.2) Conceded about the Order telling them; re: the first quote in this post.3) Did you mean "I think [somebody] boasted"? Typo? Yeah, either the Kal or the Va could have overheard the name at any time prior to that.

[P~M]

"They" probably refers to the Order, as referenced in the second clause.

[bonesiii]

"They" probably refers to the Order, as referenced in the second clause.

The Order intending it as a death trap? Seems unlikely.

[Toatapio Nuva]

"They" probably refers to the Order, as referenced in the second clause.

The Order intending it as a death trap? Seems unlikely.

Why does it seem unlikely? After all, the Bahrag were very important to the universe. If they couldn't complete their mission, Mata Nui couldn't have risen at all! That's why it's likely that the Order created this deathtrap to prevent other beings from harming the Bahrag. And EP is dangerous stuff, it can destroy or mutate beyond recognition (the Toa Mata were just lucky, really). Although it is strange that the trap was activated AFTER the Bahrag had been defeated... but perhaps the trap was only to ensure the Kal wouldn't run into more trouble with those who did something to the Bahrag.

[Katuko]

Perhaps the Kal who asked where the Bahrag are meant "you Nuva obviously got out of there somehow -- which way out did you use?" not knowing they hovered out as that area was collapsing, so the way the Nuva took was no longer open. I'm curious where this question was and the exact wording, though.

Comic 10, page 7 and onwards.Nuhvok-Kal: "We are the Bohrok Kal. We search for Cahdok and Gahdok, queens of the swarms."Pahrak-Kal: "Tell us where you have hidden the Bahrag, then stand aside. We have no wish to harm helpless foes."Lewa attacks immediately, saying the Toa are not helpless. He gets grounded with magnetism, and then the fight is on. The name "Toa Nuva" is thrown around by the Toa themselves, and the Kal immediately picks up on it and starts using it from then on. Either they already knew, or they didn't care who or what they were.At this point the Kal had already taken the Nuva symbols, and according to comic canon at least this was the first time the Toa ever met them; so I guess we should probably disregard the Flash animations, for they show Tahu briefly encountering Tahnok-Kal within Ta-Koro and Pohatu being stuck with some Rahi magnetized to him after meeting Gahlok-Kal.

Since they apparently intended the EP pool as a death trap, i don't think the Order or anyone had really briefed them on the possibility of Nuva. But then again, the Kal accurately "analyzed" the Toa Kaita they faced as "Toa Nuva Kaita, threat level 9", though I think boasted that name when they first met.

A couple things here:

1) Can you elaborate on the first clause here? Who do you mean by 'they'? I'm foggy on who exactly did put that there, but I remember (I think ) Greg saying the Bahrag didn't even know of the tubes, so it wasn't them. Also, Artakha apparently knew they would become Nuva (again, if really bad memory serves lol) and had the symbols ready, and maybe the Cube too, as well as the Kanohi Nuva, to teleport to the right spots. I think. And stuff. So I was under the impression it wasn't actually intended by anyone as a death trap, but simply could have been if someone besides the Toa Mata fell in.

I just assumed back then that the EP was part of the Bahrag's Bohrok processing (though as you say that was later nixed by Krana not requiring EP to be made) and that they opened the floor hatch/caused the collapse as a final attempt to remove the Toa. The notion has kind of stuck with me, since there isn't much of an explanation otherwise.

The whole Nuva thing has always been a little weird for me, not because of the transformation itself but because of the magically appearing cube, symbols and masks. It's all fine and dandy that the Turaga could know about what the symbols are, but the Kanohi? They just appeared, sort of, all across the island. While Arthaka doing it is the offical explanation, I prefer to think of it as the Toa's Golden Kanohi being split up again by the EP (they did wear them at the time), enhanced, and then scattered by some residual power surge. But I digress.

3) Did you mean "I think [somebody] boasted"? Typo? Yeah, either the Kal or the Va could have overheard the name at any time prior to that.

Yeah, a typo on my part. Well, as comic 10 shows, the Nuva kept referring to themselves as Toa Nuva in the first encounter. Didn't re-read that myself until just now, though, but that's where it's from.EDIT: Bah, I should read all the comics before even saying anything. Guess what page 9 of Comic 9 says? Yep, the Kal discussing not only the Nuva, but the symbols as well, apparently before they have even left the tunnels. Of course, they also say "can we succeed where the Rahi and Bohrok swarms have failed?" so either this was the comic writer (Greg) not being entirely consistent with the Bohrok's purpose at that point (since they were half set up to let us think they were Makuta's minions or something, given that they were first spotted near Mangaia in the MNOG), or the Nuva legend really did reach the MU long before they even appeared.Then later there's clearly Kohrak-Kal's snowflake-shaped shield/hand picking up Kopaka's symbol, but Matoro was floored by either Gravity or Magnetism when he went to stop the otherwise unseen Kal seconds before. Two options here: Either the comic artist wasn't briefed enough on which Kal had which power, or they were all equipped with Krana Vu-Kal and they boost speed more than I thought for two Kal to be in several villages at nearly the same time.Another small thing: Krana Xa-Kal. "Liberator. Awakens the Bahrag upon physical contact." Comic 12 does have the Bahrag taunt the Toa that they have already been touched by said Krana, so I guess they were really "asleep" until then. Perhaps still able to communicate telepathically, for all I know, in which case the Seeker Krana would still work.Bah, I blame the series' want for pushing multiple interchangeable powers onto every single character for every year it's running. Works from a kid's play perspective (since they have a whole year to get used to the powers), but not from a short comic perspective, which only have a few pages to tell everything. Edited April 13, 2012 by Katuko

[BZCoolness]

EDIT: Bah, I should read all the comics before even saying anything. Guess what page 9 of Comic 9 says? Yep, the Kal discussing not only the Nuva, but the symbols as well, apparently before they have even left the tunnels. Of course, they also say "can we succeed where the Rahi and Bohrok swarms have failed?" so either this was the comic writer (Greg) not being entirely consistent with the Bohrok's purpose at that point (since they were half set up to let us think they were Makuta's minions or something, given that they were first spotted near Mangaia in the MNOG), or the Nuva legend really did reach the MU long before they even appeared.

You've got to remember that at the time no one except the story team knew what the Bohrok's true mission was. For all we knew, they were just a bunch of bad guys trying to destroy the entire island; it wasn't until 200-2008 that we learned their real purpose.

Another small thing: Krana Xa-Kal. "Liberator. Awakens the Bahrag upon physical contact." Comic 12 does have the Bahrag taunt the Toa that they have already been touched by said Krana, so I guess they were really "asleep" until then. Perhaps still able to communicate telepathically, for all I know, in which case the Seeker Krana would still work.

Do they have to be able to communicate telepathically in order for the Krana-Kal to lock onto their location? Because all it says about the Seeker Krana is that it is connected to their brains. Even if they were asleep, theoretically there would be enough brain activity going on for them to lock on (granted, it probably would have helped a little more if they were at least half awake); just because you fall asleep doesn't mean that your brain stops working. It's still working, but it's not working as hard or fast as when you're awake. Same thing for the Bahrag.

Bah, I blame the series' want for pushing multiple interchangeable powers onto every single character for every year it's running. Works from a kid's play perspective (since they have a whole year to get used to the powers), but not from a short comic perspective, which only have a few pages to tell everything.

Well, obviously it worked, because the comics are still pretty popular. Plus, they have released books devoted to the story that can do the whole 'multiple powers' thing well enough.

[Katuko]

You've got to remember that at the time no one except the story team knew what the Bohrok's true mission was. For all we knew, they were just a bunch of bad guys trying to destroy the entire island; it wasn't until 200-2008 that we learned their real purpose.

I thought GregF was on the story team when the Bohrok Kal were released?

Do they have to be able to communicate telepathically in order for the Krana-Kal to lock onto their location? Because all it says about the Seeker Krana is that it is connected to their brains. Even if they were asleep, theoretically there would be enough brain activity going on for them to lock on (granted, it probably would have helped a little more if they were at least half awake); just because you fall asleep doesn't mean that your brain stops working. It's still working, but it's not working as hard or fast as when you're awake. Same thing for the Bahrag.

Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear on that. I meant only the telepathy would be weakened, yes, since the Seeker Krana would most likely be able to lock onto the Bahrag - awake or not - as long as they were still alive like you say.

Bah, I blame the series' want for pushing multiple interchangeable powers onto every single character for every year it's running. Works from a kid's play perspective (since they have a whole year to get used to the powers), but not from a short comic perspective, which only have a few pages to tell everything.

Well, obviously it worked, because the comics are still pretty popular. Plus, they have released books devoted to the story that can do the whole 'multiple powers' thing well enough.

Yeah, that is true. I can't remember half of the Krana-Kal being used at all, though. Then again I never read the books, but BS01 usually makes note of most power uses.

[bonesiii]

Why does it seem unlikely? After all, the Bahrag were very important to the universe. If they couldn't complete their mission, Mata Nui couldn't have risen at all! That's why it's likely that the Order created this deathtrap to prevent other beings from harming the Bahrag. And EP is dangerous stuff, it can destroy or mutate beyond recognition (the Toa Mata were just lucky, really). Although it is strange that the trap was activated AFTER the Bahrag had been defeated... but perhaps the trap was only to ensure the Kal wouldn't run into more trouble with those who did something to the Bahrag.

Well, if it's canon it's canon, I'm just saying, deathtraps aren't normal Order style. They kill intentionally when deemed necessary, and since EP is so unpredictable, what if whoever fell in there was mutated into some kind of a Bahrag-murdering monster? It's too messy for the Order IMO.

Bah, I blame the series' want for pushing multiple interchangeable powers onto every single character for every year it's running.

This right here. :PBut yeah, I think it's plausible that multiple Kal might have attacked each village at once, explaining most of the discrepencies. You can always figure too, at least with the comics, that much more time might go on between panels than it feels like to us reading them, so super-speed might not be necessary. So some of the Toa might have lost their power several hours before others.And yeah, I thought the Kal called (lol) the Nuva Nuva in that cave meeting. That's why I proposed that just prior to that they had the Va scout for information and report back to them. And I don't see why those two online scenes couldn't happen before the whole group of Toa confronted the Kal. That's how I always interpreted it.And succeeding where Rahi failed could just mean "defeating the Toa". Near the end of 2001, in MNOG, Makuta did send an army of Rahi to Kini-Nui to try to attack the Toa from behind, but the Chronicler's company held them off. And several times during the Bohrok wars the robots directly attacked the Toa once they were deemed threats. And the Kal were about to go out and try to defeat the Nuva right after that meeting, so IMO the line make sense. In fact this line could be strong evidence for the "Recon Va" theory; after all, that would be the "talk of the town" in every Koro -- our heroes defeated the Rahi and the Bohrok! Yay Toa Nuva! (As they're now called!) Edited April 13, 2012 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

Why does it seem unlikely? After all, the Bahrag were very important to the universe. If they couldn't complete their mission, Mata Nui couldn't have risen at all! That's why it's likely that the Order created this deathtrap to prevent other beings from harming the Bahrag. And EP is dangerous stuff, it can destroy or mutate beyond recognition (the Toa Mata were just lucky, really). Although it is strange that the trap was activated AFTER the Bahrag had been defeated... but perhaps the trap was only to ensure the Kal wouldn't run into more trouble with those who did something to the Bahrag.

Well, if it's canon it's canon, I'm just saying, deathtraps aren't normal Order style. They kill intentionally when deemed necessary, and since EP is so unpredictable, what if whoever fell in there was mutated into some kind of a Bahrag-murdering monster? It's too messy for the Order IMO.

According to the "Maze of Shadows" article on BS01, the EP down their was a "natural deposit". While nothing in the robot was techically natural, it probably was built by the GBs as part of the area, not by the Order. Plus the Order is secret - moving that much EP around would attract attention. It is a little hard to explain, with all the other EP in the area (Teridax's lair, Maze of Shadows pools) to justify this one as a specifically designed trap by anybody.