Mahiki illusions

[Grantaire]

Do the illusions of a Mahiki work the same way as a Psionics illusion in that they fool all five senses?

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I don't think they would be able to fool all of them. For sight and hearing, I think it would. Smell and taste, I'm not sure. As for touch, if the illusions are like the illusions from a Makuta, where the being interacting with the illusion truly thinks they're real, then they should be able to touch them. If not, then I guess anything that touched the illusion would simply pass through it.

[Grantaire]

Psionics illusions fool all five senses. If the Mahiki, like the Matatu, Suletu, and Komau, was based off of a Psionics power, why would it be so much weaker?

[bonesiii]

Mahiki creates visual illusions only -- basically holographic light -- with the exception of the bonus power of shapeshifting for the user in the Great Version, which could (only for the user) fool touch as well. It doesn't affect sound, smell, temperature, etc.As for why it would be more limited, it's one of the infinite powers possible for prodermic power mixtures; no real reason it has to be one or the other of the many variants on the concept possible. But I do not recall hearing that Illusion was related to Psionics. Are you sure you're not confusing Mahiki (Illusion) with Matatu (Telekinesis)? The latter is a confirmed sub-power of Psionics, the former, not to my knowledge.It does make sense, though, that Psionics Toa should be able to use Mind Control (Komau, another confirmed sub-power) plus dream influencing to give targets waking dream illusions similar to one Makuta used once (I think lol), in which either all the senses are fooled, or the dream would just use whatever excuse is needed to prevent them needing to touch anything that's not really there, etc.But Psionics Toa cannot, as far as I know, make actual holograms, so I don't see why Mahiki would be a sub-power of it. If anything it's a sub-power of Light.

Edited July 29, 2012 by bonesiii

[Grantaire]

Examples

• Creating illusions that can fool all five senses.
• Unleashing mental blasts of energy.
• Having limited mind control; unable to direct a being to do anything against their morals.
• Telekinesis Controlling and moving objects by mental force.
• Telepathy Detecting and reading nearby minds.
  • Transmitting the thoughts of one being into another being's mind.

  [*]Masking one's presence from other lifeforms.[*]Unleashing a Psionics Nova Blast. (Toa-exclusive)

To quote biosector. Looking at that, I thought that a Mahiki would work like a Psionics or Rahkshi illusion (recall, Vakama in Adventures 10 could feel the things of the illusion, as well as see and smell and hear them).And no, illusions are not a subpower of light, because they are inherently different from simple holograms; a toa of light could not make a hologram of a steak that smelled like a steak, felt like a steak, and tasted like a steak, while a rahkshi of illusion or a toa of psionics could. Now, if these two illusionary powers could make illusions that fool all five senses, could not the mask of illusions likewise do so?Also, it is never specified as 'visual illusions' but merely as 'casting illusions'. The list of Kraata defines illusion Kraata as 'Illusion - Creates illusions'. Going by the principle that rahkshi of illlusion cast illusions, not any special illusions, and as seen in Tiem Trap these illusions fool all the senses, it thus seems logical that the Mahiki, which casts illusions with the same lack of special modifier statements as the kraata power, would also be able to cast illusions that fool all five senses. Edited July 30, 2012 by Zarayna: The Quiet Light

[bonesiii]

Pretty sure in Time Trap Makuta's illusions were covering the real setting that Vakama was walking around in. Off the top of my head I don't recall any mention of any other sense than sight being involved there, but could be wrong.As I see it, the reason why BS01 would specifically state that Psionics illusions can fool all five senses is that this is the exception, not the rule. Illusion usually means a hologram of light only, that is intangible, can't do sound, etc. After all, that is what the term usually means in English; as in an optical illusion. So if it isn't specifically confirmed in any other case that illusions can do other senses besides vision, then most likely vision is all they can fool. :)Also, back when Greg was active, Mahiki illusions were commonly talked about as being visual-only holograms, and discussion about Light being able to do that was pretty common too. I don't recall exact quotes offhand and my memory is certainly fallible, so if you want a certain answer, best to search the old S&T. But if that understanding was incorrect, it would be strange that Greg did not say so back then. So yeah, it's pretty certain that Mahiki is an Av subpower.Edit: To be clearer, what I meant in the previous post was that I don't recall the Mahiki being a confirmed sub-power of Psionics. When I put Illusion capitalized, that's what I meant, but in hindsight it can be capitalized for other variants too, so yeah. Mahiki is a sub-power of light, but Psionics illusions are "all in your head", as I understand it ("you" being the target). The third case of Kraata/Makuta illusions is less clear, but might also be just light.

Edited July 30, 2012 by bonesiii

[Grantaire]

Pretty sure in Time Trap Makuta's illusions were covering the real setting that Vakama was walking around in. Off the top of my head I don't recall any mention of any other sense than sight being involved there, but could be wrong.As I see it, the reason why BS01 would specifically state that Psionics illusions can fool all five senses is that this is the exception, not the rule. Illusion usually means a hologram of light only, that is intangible, can't do sound, etc. After all, that is what the term usually means in English; as in an optical illusion. So if it isn't specifically confirmed in any other case that illusions can do other senses besides vision, then most likely vision is all they can fool.

At the very least, it effects hearing as well. In Time Trap, Vakama heard Nokama speaking, while she was in reality a Boggorak, which does not have the power to imitate speech. That, however, could have been done by telepathy.Otherwise, I see your points.

[bonesiii]

Well, Greg confirmed that Makuta can only use one power (besides the mask) at once, so that would be good evidence for sound as well in that power. Of course, that doesn't mean there's sound in the Mahiki.

[The 1st Shadow]

Actually, I believe the Mahiki can do more than just visual. Remember in B2: LoMN (both book and movie), when Matau used his mask against Nidhiki and Krekka? The mask not only allowed him to shapeshift, but to imitate their voices, as well. In another case, I think the Great Mahiki has another factor in it's power. Remember in BA7: Web of the Visorak when Matau changed into a Lohrak? He actually BECAME a Lohrak--physically, not mentally.Personally, I believe that the Mahiki can fool all five senses, but maybe not all at once. Depends on the illusion, and the willpower and control of the user. Just my take on it, and I could very well be wrong, but I don't think there's any real evidence either for or against what's being suggested.

[Makuta Matata]

Remember in Legends of Metru Nui, when Matau transformed into a Vahki, he still had his own voice? And somehow, when he transformed into Krekka, he had Krekka's voice. So I think that it can do all five senses, but it doesn't have to. Maybe a Great Mask can do all five, but a Noble Mask can't.

[bonesiii]

I'd advise against reading too much into the mimicking of voices. He may have been doing that on his own. Unless confirmed to be part of the mask power, I would assume he was just doing an amateur Terry Fator. The closeness of the voice may also be movie license since they had the advantage of having the actual actors do them.Also, something I probably should have brought up earlier, MNOG clearly portrayed the illusion Kopaka used (Mahiki) as not able to fool touch, as the Rahi's lunging head went right through the illusion. That scene also showed that it wasn't a dream-illusion in one target, BTW, since the Matoran there saw them too, unlike a Psionics illusion. Now I know MNOG isn't totally canon, but it -is- canon unless otherwise contradicted. And it was largely based on that portrayal that we all concluded "back in the day" that it was simply creating visual holograms, which Greg never contradicted.

[The Iron Toa]

Don't forget, Kopaka was using the Noble Mahiki. I guess the Noble version can only make hologram-type illusions, while the Great version has more abilities. I don't think the mask changed Matau's voice, though, I think that was Matau's own mimicry.

[fishers64]

The Great version allows its user to shapeshift to a limited degree or to cast illusions. The user can shapeshift into forms of similar mass and imitate voices, but cannot copy any powers the original has. The Noble version does not let the user shapeshift. Instead, it only allows them to cast illusions.

So, the Great Mahiki has two powers. 1) Shapeshifting2) Casting illusionsThe power of shapeshifting, which Matau used, allowed him to mimic voices and actually shift into Lohrak or Vahki. The power of illusion, unless otherwise specified, does not use that power.The only instance I can remember of the illusion power (not the shapeshifting power...) being used was the one with Kopaka and the Rahi. I don't think that Toa Mata had Noble masks, actually, anywhere, seeing as there is no other refrence to it as in the game. But there's no refrence to the Mahiki messing around with your mind - it just changes what you see, or what form Matau was in, not what his enemies thought. Whereas Makuta was clearly fooling with Vakama's mind in the Time Trap illusion - it's similar to Karzanhi's "alternate futures", which were clearly in the Matoran's heads. Same for Psionics Toa...So the Mahiki would change how something appears, not how it actually is, which would only affect vision. Further, the Rode can "see" through it, which wouldn't be possible if the thing affected the mind directly.

[aaninja64]

I'd advise against reading too much into the mimicking of voices. He may have been doing that on his own. Unless confirmed to be part of the mask power, I would assume he was just doing an amateur Terry Fator. The closeness of the voice may also be movie license since they had the advantage of having the actual actors do them.Also, something I probably should have brought up earlier, MNOG clearly portrayed the illusion Kopaka used (Mahiki) as not able to fool touch, as the Rahi's lunging head went right through the illusion. That scene also showed that it wasn't a dream-illusion in one target, BTW, since the Matoran there saw them too, unlike a Psionics illusion. Now I know MNOG isn't totally canon, but it -is- canon unless otherwise contradicted. And it was largely based on that portrayal that we all concluded "back in the day" that it was simply creating visual holograms, which Greg never contradicted.

Well, it looks to me like it has options. Like the user gets to choose, "Sound? Sure. Touch? No need" I don't think Kopaka wanted his illusion-twin to be realistically mauled, because that would just waste his energy, where he could just have nothing happen, and he would be able to focus on getting the Muaka off the cliff. So it appears that the user can make the illusions solid and non-solid at will.

[Grantaire]

But there's no refrence to the Mahiki messing around with your mind - it just changes what you see, or what form Matau was in, not what his enemies thought. Whereas Makuta was clearly fooling with Vakama's mind in the Time Trap illusion - it's similar to Karzanhi's "alternate futures", which were clearly in the Matoran's heads. Same for Psionics Toa...

There is no difference in definition of the Kraata power that Makuta used, and the power of the Matatu: both are simply defined, according to BS01, as illusions. Kraata illusions are never mentioned as a Psionic power on BS01 either.Also, I'm pretty sure that a Rode can see through a psionics illusion, also. Edited August 4, 2012 by Zarayna: The Quiet Light

[bonesiii]

I'd advise against reading too much into the mimicking of voices. He may have been doing that on his own. Unless confirmed to be part of the mask power, I would assume he was just doing an amateur Terry Fator. The closeness of the voice may also be movie license since they had the advantage of having the actual actors do them.Also, something I probably should have brought up earlier, MNOG clearly portrayed the illusion Kopaka used (Mahiki) as not able to fool touch, as the Rahi's lunging head went right through the illusion. That scene also showed that it wasn't a dream-illusion in one target, BTW, since the Matoran there saw them too, unlike a Psionics illusion. Now I know MNOG isn't totally canon, but it -is- canon unless otherwise contradicted. And it was largely based on that portrayal that we all concluded "back in the day" that it was simply creating visual holograms, which Greg never contradicted.

Well, it looks to me like it has options. Like the user gets to choose, "Sound? Sure. Touch? No need" I don't think Kopaka wanted his illusion-twin to be realistically mauled, because that would just waste his energy, where he could just have nothing happen, and he would be able to focus on getting the Muaka off the cliff. So it appears that the user can make the illusions solid and non-solid at will.

Based on what? If someone wants to say that in a fanfic, that's fine, but this forum is for canon. Canonically we only have evidence for sight; there's no indication that Mahiki can do others. Sound maybe; the hologram did have a switching on and off sound effect in MNOG, at the least. For touch, we have no evidence of that. Nor smell/taste.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Illusions are not something you can touch. Illusions fool sight only. Matau mimicking the voices of Krekka and Nidhiki (it was at some point confirmed by Greg that the Great Mahiki actually allows the user to adopt other voices) was part of the shapeshifting powers of the Great Mahiki. Casting illusions doesn't include sound, although Makuta did create Nokama's, Nuju's and others' voices in the great illusion in Time Trap. Then again, maybe his tremendous willpower enabled it.But I don't think the Mahiki can affect anything but sight (sound is questionable). But remember that the Great and Noble versions are very different. It was a shame we never saw Matau cast illusions with the mask as a Toa.

[Katuko]

We've seen several types of illusions in BIONICLE, which is what causes confusion here.- Did we ever get to know what made the illusion that the Toa Mata encountered in the Bohrok nest? That one appeared as an impenetrable wall until Lewa realized it was fake. At that point they could walk right through.- Vakama in Makuta's illusion and Lesovikk in Karzahni's only seemed to have their mind affected, with a whole world constructed in their heads and the Matoran around Lesovikk unable to see what he did.- Kopaka's use of the Mahiki to create doubles of himself, images that could be seen by everyone (not just his intended target) but also people around him.- Psionics can fool all senses. This can't be holographic, however, since Psionics only controls the mind. As such, they can make you believe you are eating a delicious meal, and fool your senses into thinking that it's really hot/spicy/filling/etc; but no one else can see or smell it because it's all in your head.A question I have with such mind-affecting illusions, however: If I create an illusion in your head of a brick wall that is right in front of you - a wall that you can't possibly avoid because you are already running or something - what would happen? Would you feel false pain from the impact; or would you go through and realize it was fake?The Great Mahiki seems to have shapeshifting as its primary power, and judging by the Noble Mahiki's images the mask can not fool all senses. Perhaps if you specifically target it at someone, you can affect their mind further to accept the illusion as real, but if you just create a false object and walk away I don't think anyone could touch/smell/hear it without you being there to specifically make them do so.

[fishers64]

Just to confirm on the voices...

13) How could Makuta change their voices? Teridax changed his voice into Tuyet's while he disguised as her in Dark Mirror.

13) Well, there are Visorak who can mimic voices as well .. heck, there are humans who can do it .. it's a talent.

So it would appear that Makuta was mimicing Nokama's voice.Edit:Another point, however, is that Makuta's illusion must have made it appear as if the sound was coming from "Nokama's" lips, rather than from Makuta. Perhaps Makuta was warping the sounds coming from the Visorak, or convinced it to playact? That's a Boggerak, though, not an Oohnorak.

But there's no refrence to the Mahiki messing around with your mind - it just changes what you see, or what form Matau was in, not what his enemies thought. Whereas Makuta was clearly fooling with Vakama's mind in the Time Trap illusion - it's similar to Karzanhi's "alternate futures", which were clearly in the Matoran's heads. Same for Psionics Toa...

There is no difference in definition of the Kraata power that Makuta used, and the power of the Matatu: both are simply defined, according to BS01, as illusions. Kraata illusions are never mentioned as a Psionic power on BS01 either.Also, I'm pretty sure that a Rode can see through a psionics illusion, also.

Matatu=Mask of Telekinesis, not illusion. You mean the Mahiki?It's possible that Makuta was just doing the visual/voice mimic thing. As for the Rode, I recall:

Axonn had been running for many days and nights. After being teleported from Metru Nui by the power of Makuta, he had found himself in a vast, barren landscape. At first, there was no sign of any life at all, Matoran or Rahi, or any habitation. That changed when he began to hear the screams. They were cries of agony and they were coming from Brutaka, though his old friend was nowhere to be seen.The warrior had raced off in the direction of the screams. That had been – how long ago? A week ago? A month? He had crossed the wasteland that never seemed to end, but had been unable to find Brutaka. Strangely, he had felt neither hunger nor thirst on the journey, just an overpowering need to keep searching.A few things had begun nagging at him, though, like the buzz of a fireflyer in his ear. The landscape never changed. He could swear he had seen the same rock formations time and time again, as if he were running in a circle. And Brutaka – not even he could endure what he seemed to be for weeks at a time. His screams should have died out long ago.Then the crack appeared in the sky. It was only a small one, but bright light flowed through it from somewhere outside. That, too, made no sense. No sooner had Axonn said that to himself then the crack got bigger. Then more cracks started to appear, in the sky, in the ground, all around him.This can’t be happening, Axonn thought. This can’t be real. This... isn’t real!

It might, but it would take the person involved a bit of time to doubt their mind and call on their mask. Edited August 7, 2012 by fishers64