Mask making

[Constructelf]

It says that different power levels of kanoka produce different masks. However, if several kanoka of different power levels are mixed, what power level will the resulting mask be?

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

I don't have an official answer, but I'd say that you'd probably produce a mask at the power level of the weakest Kanoka you use, or that it'd be an average of the two.

[Tanu Toa of Earth]

Or, it's possible that the mask just wouldn't work properly (or at all).

[Constructelf]

Also, I noticed that the matoran of metru nui seem to not be very creative with disk combinations, and they don't seem to be eager with single disk masks either. What if somebody tried combining two sets of disks, each for a different mask?

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Also, I noticed that the matoran of metru nui seem to not be very creative with disk combinations, and they don't seem to be eager with single disk masks either. What if somebody tried combining two sets of disks, each for a different mask?

This one's actually known - combining two Kanoka with different powers into a mask gets you a mask with a totally unrelated, but repeatable, power.

[Makuta Matata]

Hmm. Yeah, I think that the powers numbers on the disks are averaged to find the resulting power.

[Constructelf]

No, no, what I meant was if you made a combination not in the table, took a ruru set and mixed it with a hau set, or just took your barrel of kanoka and just dumped them all into the forgeAlso, how do people not on metru nui or without kanoka make masks? With lava?

[fishers64]

No, no, what I meant was if you made a combination not in the table, took a ruru set and mixed it with a hau set, or just took your barrel of kanoka and just dumped them all into the forgeAlso, how do people not on metru nui or without kanoka make masks? With lava?

I imagine that the result of such experimenting would get you a completely new power, previously unknown and possibly undesirable. If you throw a barrel of Kanoka in the forge, you will get a lot of molten protodermis. If you were able to make masks out of it, you would get a completely new power or existing powers depending on how the disks combine. Also, combining a weaker disk with a stronger one would likely result in one of the following things:1) Any combination of power level 1-6 disks will get you a powerless Matoran mask, regardless of whether you combined a 1 with a 1 or a 1 with a 6. 2) Combining a disk of power level 7 and 8 with one of 1 through six will likely get you a weakened version of a Great or Noble mask, with the power of the stronger disk, since the power of the 1 through 6 will likely leech away. It's possible that you could get just a standard Great Mask or Noble Mask with the power of the stronger disk, since you can make a mask out of the single strong disk anyway, and the other disk would be just extra proto. Neither situation is desirable, explaining why they don't do it. 3) Combining a power level 7 and 8 disk will likely get you a mask of the power combination of the two disks, at a level somewhere between Great and Noble. Masks can be made directly from purified protodermis, and the Kanoka stage can be skipped. This is slightly more difficult, but it was what the Matoran did before there were Kanoka. I suspect that purfied protodermis can be charged to any power level, but the amounts of masks with different levels of power depending on the mask maker's mood that week contributed to the adoption of the Kanoka system in the first place. And the levels of 7 and 8 disks were standardized after what Toa and Turaga could easily control.

[bonesiii]

The universe would explode.Just kidding. With different power levels, I don't know that Greg was ever asked. I think it would work; it would select either the higher or lower. Which, I have no idea. I lean towards higher, but could be wrong.With unknown power mixtures, Greg confirmed it would make a new power; he said an infinite variety of powers is possible by such mixing. And this is how the known mixtures were invented.

[Katuko]

Yes, mixing two powers does not simply add two powers to one mask. The energies blend and change into a new power entirely. I'm not sure about disk level, but I can imagine that if you want to make a Great Hau you will need all the disks to have the required power level, otherwise power leakage might cause the weakest disks to have too little of an effect on the mix.A Hau is made from Enlarge + Regeneration. Regeneration alone makes a Kiril, and we can guess that Enlarge (which is not listed alone) becomes the Mask of Growth. Great Kanohi require level 8, Noble 6 or 7, and anything below becomes a Matoran mask.Therefore, I theorize the following:Enlarge 8 + Regeneration 8 = Great HauEither 8 + other 6 or 7 = Noble HauEither 6 or 7 + other 6 or 7 = Noble HauRegeneration 6 to 8 + Enlarge 5 = Kiril (possibly weakened by one stage due to power conflict)Or perhaps the unbalanced power levels simply causes a reaction that renders the mask inert or leaves us with mostly useless powers, explaining why the Matoran stick to their known recipes.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Katuko

[Constructelf]

Ok, so what happens if you combine regeneration and enlarge with teleport and shrink?

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Ok, so what happens if you combine regeneration and enlarge with teleport and shrink?

You get the Mask of Bacon.Seriously, I don't know, and if anybody did, it would be relatively easy to look up on BS01. It's basically chemistry - if you're a mask maker and you don't know what a combination does, you try it out and hope it doesn't explode.Although I'd imagine that the more Kanoka of different powers you add into a mask, the more unstable it is and harder to complete it. Take the Mask of Time - it was made from 6 disks and could only be forged properly with the absolute highest level Kanoka in existence - anything less and it'd just fall apart. Edited August 23, 2012 by Jedi Knight Krazy

[fishers64]

Ok, so what happens if you combine regeneration and enlarge with teleport and shrink?

The enlarge and shrink powers would likely cancel each other out, leaving you with whatever teleport+ regneration is.

[Katuko]

That would be X-Ray Vision, if it even works like that.

[bonesiii]

I don't think there's any instability about the number of Kanoka used. Greg said infinite variety is possible, but if there was an instability like that it would in effect be finite. The Vahi was a special case because of the extreme power of the disks being used to make it. It had a special rule about that. If you mix any number of normal level disks, the results should always be just as stable.Also, I doubt any two would actually cancel out.

[JPNML]

what would happen if you use an enlarge and a shrink?

[Constructelf]

A mask of complete size control?

[The Iron Toa]

I think if those were easy to make, we'd have seen those and not the masks of Growth and Diminishment. Maybe, if it exists, it lets the user grow or shrink but not as much as the masks that only change size one way do.

[Geardirector]

Then again, we do have both the mask of Concealment (Huna) and the mask of Stealth (Volitak) so there's that. Same as how there is both the mask of Summoning (Zatth) and the mask of Rahi Control (Uh... whatever).There's also both the Miru and Kadin too. Personally I think it makes perfect sense of there being a mask that can control both aspects. I suggest we call it the Kanohi Pym:)

Edited August 24, 2012 by Kopakamidak

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

No, Growth + Shrink does not equal Size Control. The actual power combination isn't logical - compare it to our world; you've got hydrogen and oxygen, two gases. What happens if you mix two hydrogen atoms with an oxygen atom? You get water. It's not a logical or intuitive combination, but once you understand the chemical rules behind it, it makes perfect sense.

[Katuko]

Then again, we do have both the mask of Concealment (Huna) and the mask of Stealth (Volitak) so there's that. Same as how there is both the mask of Summoning (Zatth) and the mask of Rahi Control (Uh... whatever).There's also both the Miru and Kadin too.

You're right about the others being similar, but I want to note that Summoning is a teleportation effect while Rahi control is mind-related.

[Nuparu1995]

If you mix power levels, I guess it might depend on the Kanohi you were trying to create, and I know that different, yet very specific combination of Kanoka disks create different Kanohi, so...yeah, it depends.

[bonesiii]

No, Growth + Shrink does not equal Size Control. The actual power combination isn't logical - compare it to our world; you've got hydrogen and oxygen, two gases. What happens if you mix two hydrogen atoms with an oxygen atom? You get water. It's not a logical or intuitive combination, but once you understand the chemical rules behind it, it makes perfect sense.

This. I've theorized before, under my cyberclay protodermis theory, that the eight basic powers contain a collection of base codes, and when you mix them, there's a program built into the protodermis that grabs parts from both and finds the most logical power to combine those parts in a predictable way. The power that comes out will have more to do with complex inner workings of code in the two powers, which we as fans of this fiction cannot plausibly have any good idea of IMO, than of the actual original powers.BTW, here's a theory to try to answer the question of what power level comes out if you mix different levels.We know that if you mix two level nines, you get a single disk with the same mass as all single disks, that is level nine as well. What happens to the energy for the mass of half of them? Probably it is expended in the process of calculating what new power must come out of the two, re: the theory I just gave. Now what about the energy in the disks that determines power level? Probably the same thing. Half of it must be expended.So if you have one level 8 and one level 9, it would not have enough energy to expend to finish the job. Therefore it must treat the 9 as if it was an 8, setting aside a remainder. Half of each is expended, and the remainder is dealt with by unknown means -- perhaps it's given off as a byproduct into the atmosphere, perhaps it remains dormant inside the disk. Or perhaps handling a mismatch fusion requires a little extra energy by design to calculate, so it expends the remainder. Regardless, I don't think it would make sense to say that a 9 comes out of the mix.Therefore, my theory is that if you mix Kanoka of different levels (one being one level above the other), it will select the lower of the two for the result.For a mix of 7 & 9, I do think it would average them to an 8, and same for any such thing. A 1 and a 9, by the same principle, should come out to a 5. Anytime there is a single number exactly between the two that are used, that's the resultant level, methinks.However, a 2 and 9 would by my theory not go up to a 6, but would also go to a 5, since that's the lower of the two numbers between the originals.Thunks?

[The Iron Toa]

Well, it could be that when two disks are combined, you get a leftover powerless disk or metal scraps, instead of the matter of two disks becoming one. Of course, if that was true, the Great Disks would be a special case, because they were shown melding into each other.

[bonesiii]

No, Greg confirmed the result merges into one mass. He didn't necessarily say "the Great Disk portrayal is the same as for all" but if it wasn't I think he would have said so. I'd consider it essentially confirmed to be what all mergings look like.It -is- possible that excess energy/mass is channeled away as energy, though. That would make my theory moot, but I doubt this is the case, as that would be rather wasteful. If it wasn't expended, then you'd think mixing a level 1 with a level 1 would result in a level 2 and the like. I think it's much more likely all that energy needs to be spent.

[Katuko]

Or at the very least, creating a power of a certain level requires at least each disk to meet the same requirements, so level 8 + level 6 becomes a Noble mask even if one disk alone would have made a Great version. Level 8 + Level 4 would similarly become either powerless if the process starts but fails, or it would have whatever power the lone Level 8 would have become. It's impossible to say for sure without seeing it in the story. For that matter, what happens if you want to make a Hau (Regeneration + Enlarge), but you use Lvl 8 Regen and two Lvl 4 Enlarge?Judging by Vakama's way of doing it, the disks might be used one at a time to meld into one another, then that disk is molded into a mask. In that case, I think the energy leak is applied there: It's not the melting/bending of the disk metal that causes leakage, it's the disk melding process. A single Level 8 disk can be used for a Great Kanohi, but when you have to mix two of them half the energy leaks out during the fusion, leaving you with still just a Level 8. Basically, the end level is the level of Disk 1 + Disk 2 divided by 2. I'm not sure if this makes more or less sense to me than my earlier thoughts: that the energy leaked during the mask molding itself; resulting in 5 levels to be subtracted from each disk for each molding. In that case a Level 8 disk would end up at "Level 3" for a Great Mask, though that would mean that the Kanoka's innate power is far greater than a Kanohi's, but it also better explains why Matoran masks made from a single Level 5 disk have no power at all. No disk fusion there.Has it ever been stated if a Matoran mask contains trace powers that trigger when a Toa transformation occurred? For example, Vakama's mask was a powerless Huna, and it happened to also become a Great Huna. If Matoran mold their masks based on the disk even if it's powerless in the end, that would make sense... they would be preparing for the event that a Matoran becomes a Toa; the mask would be known. Theory blown to pieces by the fact that the great mask-maker didn't know his own mask power, though.At this point I realize I'm just running a train of thought that leads everywhere, so I'll stop now.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Katuko

[Constructelf]

I'm guessing it would add the power levels of all of the disks and try to divide it. The highest whole number up to level 9 it can be divided by determines the power level

[fishers64]

No, Greg confirmed the result merges into one mass. He didn't necessarily say "the Great Disk portrayal is the same as for all" but if it wasn't I think he would have said so. I'd consider it essentially confirmed to be what all mergings look like.It -is- possible that excess energy/mass is channeled away as energy, though. That would make my theory moot, but I doubt this is the case, as that would be rather wasteful. If it wasn't expended, then you'd think mixing a level 1 with a level 1 would result in a level 2 and the like. I think it's much more likely all that energy needs to be spent.

I would think that the Great Disks would be a special case in that all the energy was likely retained. Controlling time would require vast amounts of energy, probably greater than the energies of a level nine disk on its own. Even their use together formed an energy sphere, not sent the Morbuzakh back in time. I mean, if fusing six level nine disks together resulted with somehting with. the powers of the level nine disk, and not more, then I don't think it would have had enough power to control time. I think that some of the energy from the other disks and the energy from their mass must have been retained, in order to end up with Legendary strength powers. Otherwise Artahka probably could have made six disks of time instead of six disks with enlarge, regenerate, weaken, and so on. If combining those gets you just a energy sphere, there must be something extra there to end up with time, which is the energy derived from the mass of the additional disks. I think...

[bonesiii]

Basically, the end level is the level of Disk 1 + Disk 2 divided by 2.

I think this is correct, with an added rule that it always round down, basically. Since, for example, (1+2)/2 = 1.5. That would round down to Level 1 (under my theory anyway).

Has it ever been stated if a Matoran mask contains trace powers that trigger when a Toa transformation occurred? For example, Vakama's mask was a powerless Huna, and it happened to also become a Great Huna. If Matoran mold their masks based on the disk even if it's powerless in the end, that would make sense... they would be preparing for the event that a Matoran becomes a Toa; the mask would be known. Theory blown to pieces by the fact that the great mask-maker didn't know his own mask power, though.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I think the answer is that the Toa Energy that triggers the transformation includes enough mask-level energy to pump up either Matoran or Noble masks to Great level. If they did happen to be wearing a Noble or Great, there'd be an excess and again I dunno what would happen to it, but the point is, this doesn't speak in any way to what the Matoran mask was like when they were Matoran.Matoran masks -do- have the power to keep Matoran conscious, but I don't think it's related to power level; it's the same in all Kanohi.

I would think that the Great Disks would be a special case in that all the energy was likely retained. Controlling time would require vast amounts of energy, probably greater than the energies of a level nine disk on its own. Even their use together formed an energy sphere, not sent the Morbuzakh back in time.

Maybe to the first, but prior to being mixed there would be no reason for any time effects against Morby. The time power (or any other resulting power of a mix) doesn't come into existence until the mixing is complete.You know, here's a competing "sub-theory" if you will, about what happens to the extra mass / level energy when two disks are merged. Considering Vakama was able to partially merge two but then pull them back out, maybe -- it's a radical idea -- all the mass and excess energy is still stored as energy in the resulting disk. (Not spent.) So perhaps there would always be a way to pull them back apart, turning that back to mass, etc. Maybe. Perhaps it would be very hard (like separating Mata plastic eyebrains from their faces, setwise), but possible by some unknown mechanism. That would help explain that one scene where he pulled them apart again, and also solve the issue of what happens to any remainders. I think it would still fit with the Divide By Two theory/theories too, as this would be an automatic, universal storage system.And yet, it would enable the Vahi to be a special case, since it became a Legendary mask; in its case all the extra energy was added to the DoT's power, and converted to mask form later.

If combining those gets you just a energy sphere, there must be something extra there to end up with time, which is the energy derived from the mass of the additional disks. I think...

Well, the extra mass was not converted to energy in that attack, though. If you call each one's mass a unit of one, the whole collection had a mass of 6, and "extra mass energy" of 0. Later it had the mass of one, and the "extra mass energy" of 5. Quite a big difference. I do agree that extraness probably had to be used, but creating that energy sphere already implies a lot of energy beyond what powers the six disks' normal powers. I think there's big room for doubt there; for example, maybe the Vahi just controls small-scale time on its own, relatively, and is totally within the range of a level 9, but it taps into a core function of the physics of the MU so a messup there would cause a chain reaction in the rest of the MU's physics.

[Katuko]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I think the answer is that the Toa Energy that triggers the transformation includes enough mask-level energy to pump up either Matoran or Noble masks to Great level. If they did happen to be wearing a Noble or Great, there'd be an excess and again I dunno what would happen to it, but the point is, this doesn't speak in any way to what the Matoran mask was like when they were Matoran.Matoran masks -do- have the power to keep Matoran conscious, but I don't think it's related to power level; it's the same in all Kanohi.

I was just wondering if that same leftover energy that "feeds" the Matoran also retained the characteristics of the mask's special power, except in such a weak condition that it couldn't be triggered. To take the Hau example again: if I use weak Regen and enlarge disks to make a Matoran mask for myself, and then at a later stage a normal Toa transformation occurs (simple Toa Stone, no mysterious star lightning or Ignika influence)... would I have a Great Hau, guaranteed?I'm asking because the Toa Metru all got masks that fit their Matoran versions, yet Vakama (for example) did not recognize that his was a Huna until much later. I'm not sure if that's simply his mental trigger not being primed, though, as he didn't seem so surprised at being invisible at the end of LoMN. To me it looked more like he just now realized how to use it.

[bonesiii]

I haven't bothered to look up what formula gives you Hau, but yes, it doesn't matter what level the Matoran are wearing; when Toa-ized it becomes a Great Mask (other than if they were wearing a Legendary Mask I guess ).Them not knowing their mask powers was explained basically as it both not being part of their jobs and more about not knowing how the powers worked mentally rather than not knowing the powers. A lot of people agree it makes no sense for Vakama not to know them, but it's canon that he didn't, at least as far as being able to help them use them immediately. It could simply be that he normally specialized in making Matoran masks, and that "Dume" chose him to make the Vahi mainly so others wouldn't expect it and perhaps because he was a hard worker, rather than experience with powered masks or knowledge of them. In other words, Vakama may have just known the shapes.Keep in mind, though, the Inika (and apparently Mahri) got help to know how to use theirs, Inika by the organic masks, and apparently Mahri by the Mask of Life (though I don't recall if that was confirmed; memory's rusty on the Mahri... heh heh get it rusty okay). And the Nuva had to train with various powers when they were first made (part of the memories they did retain after the canisters). So it seems that all new Toa have to 'learn' their powers regardless of whether they intellectually know what shapes and names go with what powers. The difference between knowing trivia about flying an airplane versus being a fully qualified and active pilot.

Edited August 26, 2012 by bonesiii