The Vahi: Master of Dimensions?

[Elrond of Rivendell]

Recently(While thinking up an idea for an RPG), I began developing a theory, one that would be the basis for the RPG. It kinda/sorta developed into it's own theory.

 

Could the Vahi, if it was shattered, destroy all dimensions, and all masks of time?

 

Here is my reasoning:

 

1. Alternate realities are decided by the choices that specific characters make or don't make, that affect the canon storyline. These choices create the path deviations that create different dimensions.

 

2. It is stated by Vakama in Time Trap that destroying the vahi would shatter time, creating a future that was the past, where Makuta was dead, and the next moment, he's alive. Doesn't this sound like alternate dimensions?

 

3. If you noticed, time continued normally before the Vahi was made, yet the mask cannot be broken without altering or destroying time, suggesting that creating a Vahi links the Vahi with other Vahis from other dimensions, tying all dimensions together in an unbreakable bond. Destroying one Vahi would destroy all.

 

 

 

Now, feel free to tear this theory to bits

 

-Elrond

[bonesiii]

1-2) One obvious flaw with this idea is that since alternate dimensions are made at every choice fork, there IS a dimension (or system of chaotic interwoven dimensions) in which the Vahi WAS destroyed, and this one has not destroyed the Core Dimension, etc.

 

In fact, there should probably be an alternate dimension from any possible point when the Vahi could have been made or was made in which it breaks. Artakha, after making the Great Disks, could be curious what would happen, fuse them, smash the DoT or make the Vahi and smash that. Or after Vakama makes it, the Vahki transport could crash violently into one of those big pillars Makuta made and it could break, etc. So if your theory was true, wouldn't all dimensions already have been destroyed?

 

So the theory is self-defeating.

 

Another is that the Vahi can only destroy time within the Matoran Universe. This seems to say that the very flow of time in there is 'contained' somehow, so it wouldn't even destroy one entire dimension, just make that tiny part of it really chaotic. (Constant random time travel powers activating all over the place is basically how it's defined.)

 

So in short, no.

 

The destruction of the Vahi creates its own branch of timelines that rapidly bend back on themselves and branch more than others etc. to create an interwoven jungle of dimensions, but only off of that one choice fork, and only in a small area in space. The other original choice fork, and all past and future timelines branching from there, are intact. The jumble would include "alternate pasts" as well as alternate futures, but it would not actually affect the "original past" (as that is impossible in timeline theory by definition -- if this point confuses you ask for a clarification, as it's a bit lengthy ).

 

3) Yes and no. There would be many Vahi within this jumbled-up branch, when it leaps back into an alternate past in which the Vahi wasn't destroyed, yes. None of these would be the "original Vahi" or the alternate Vahi branching off from choice forks in which the Vahi still wasn't destroyed. So no, all Vahi are not interconnected.

Edited March 26, 2013 by bonesiii

[Elrond of Rivendell]

Yes, please give clarification.

 

Let me get this straight: You're saying that if the Vahi was broken, the alternate past/futures of that dimension would also have broken Vahi?

 

Also, as a follow-up question, does that mean that time would eventually settle to a point at which it would assume a "normal" state?

 

-Elrond

[bonesiii]

Yes, please give clarification.

Alright. Part in question for context:

The jumble would include "alternate pasts" as well as alternate futures, but it would not actually affect the "original past" (as that is impossible in timeline theory by definition -- if this point confuses you ask for a clarification, as it's a bit lengthy ).

To begin to explain this, let's bring up the mistaken "grandfather paradox", a theme the first Back to the Future movie used (incorrectly, but it wasn't meant to be serious ). This is the idea that if you go back in time and cause the death of your grandfather, that you would cease to exist, and then wouldn't have killed him, which means now you exist, etc. The mistake this fallacy makes is confusing different timelines. (This'll get complicated, so tighten that thinking cap securely. )

 

 

First of all, we need a labeling scheme to make this clearer, so let me apply it to the normal mechanics first.

 

At every choice fork, there is the choice you make, and the alternate timeline in which you made the opposite -- the "anti-choice". The time before this is Past A. It is unaffected by normal choices obviously, since they do not involve time travel. After this choice fork, there is Future A (in which you make the choice one way), and Future B (in which you make the anti-choice).

 

Once you make the choice and enter Future A, you will make more choices as well. We can call the branches off of these later choices Future AA and AB. The other choices in the anti-choice timeline can be called BA (Baracus! Ahem...) and BB. And sometimes there are three or more choices, so you could have Future AC, for example. With me so far? It's confusing even with the labels, I know.

 

 

 

Now, to the grandfather paradox.

 

Under timeline theory, if you go back in time, the instant you arrive, your mere presence (or even the initial presence of a temporal portal before you even come through it) creates a fork right there. The original timeline continues unaffected -- and you are from that timeline. In that timeline, your grandfather cannot be killed. It's your past and it's absolutely secure. ("You" being this you, of course.) This is Past A.

 

So now you've created an alternate past (call it Past B). It only exists because you have time-traveled. You can only have have a Past B if backwards time-travel is involved -- and if you DO travel to the past, you MUST make a Past B (under timeline theory).

 

Whatever choices you make in this new timeline, and their corresponding anti-choices, will create many new branches -- plus the choices others make in response, etc. None of these can in any way affect Past A. In fact, assuming you only have primitive time-traveling methods, you will never be able to get back to Future A and find out what would have happened if you hadn't time-traveled. If you go to the future, you now go to any version of Future B.

 

So now you have two choices in regards to the grandfather question. If your grandfather (or other ancestors) survives (Future BA), then another you will be born in that future. If your grandfather dies (Future BB), then another you is never born. But this you is unaffected.

 

In short, no hands fading away. (It would really be more like the second Back to the Future, in which timeline theory suddenly applied, lol. Although we could come up with an even more complicated explanation to make the first work, but that's not the point of this topic.)

 

 

Follow so far?

 

 

 

Now, applying this to the Vahi, we have Past A in which the Vahi was NOT destroyed. This past is untouchable (this was my main point earlier). And every choice fork (that we're not considering) is unaffected (Pasts AA, AB, etc.).

 

As soon as you destroy it, you create two splits (at first). This you lives in Future A (the choice you made). Everything here will be affected by the Vahi breaking -- Futures AA, AB, etc.

 

The anti-choice dimension, in which you didn't destroy the Vahi, is Future B. This is untouchable too. And its branches -- Futures BA, BB, etc.

 

So to recap where we are so far, Past A and its natural (non-time-travel) branches are fine, as is the alternate future, Future B, in which the Vahi didn't break, and its natural branches. This would be "everything else" -- the Core Dimension (in which the Vahi never broke), the Kingdom Universe, Tuyetverse, etc. These all remain intact.

 

Now, since the Vahi itself enables time travel, there will be multiple leaps to the past, and splits from points in the past (like the grandfather situation).

 

At these points, the original Past A is always unaffected, but alternate timelines (Pasts B) branch off from it whenever a time-travel incident "hits" it. So alternate grandfathers can be killed, essentially, then unkilled, and all the sorts of chaos Vakama described (which, incidentally, Greg at one point confirmed would happen, as I understood the quote I saw while researching this recently). All without touching the original past.

 

 

So, the jumble would be made out of threads from Past B and Future A. Hang on 'cuz this is where it gets really insane (and my labeling scheme gets messed up but oh well).

 

Everything from Future A (where the Vahi broke) has the Vahi broken........ at first. But in every Past B, the Vahi would still be unbroken (at first; Past BA). This is where unbroken Vahi (copies) can enter the jumble. And get mixed up with the future too... PLUS there could be Past BB, in which the new unbroken Vahi gets broken but under completely different circumstances, etc. And this would happen over and over again in feedback loops and yeah.

 

(Boy I hope I didn't get the labels mixed up in there lolz. This is why Greg had a rule against time travel actually being featured, heh.)

 

 

Let me get this straight: You're saying that if the Vahi was broken, the alternate past/futures of that dimension would also have broken Vahi?

Not exactly... If I understood your wording right. The "alternate" past would (at first) have an unbroken Vahi (it would be alternate due to the entrance of time-travelers, though they might later break these copies of the Vahi too). And if you made the choice to break it, by definition the "alternate" future of that choice also has it unbroken. Pardon if I'm being too literal about your word choice though. See above details for more.

 

Also, as a follow-up question, does that mean that time would eventually settle to a point at which it would assume a "normal" state?

 

-Elrond

Normal meaning no more time travel? Not really sure. That would basically be up to Greg to decide, and I doubt he would want to as he intentionally avoids time-travel stories.

 

Of course, the problem with asking this is that as soon as the Vahi breaks, you're not dealing with just one timeline anymore. It's a vast, ever-growing jumble of multiple timelines. And in many of them, more unbroken Vahi can get pulled in and then broken, and these timelines can get mixed up into the same jumble, so possibly could "fuel" the whole system "forever". Plus, the looping-back effect means that there may never be "enough time" for the Vahi's energy to fade away. I expect that you could follow some branches out of this mess in which time would flow normally, and others that lead back into the jumble. So, instead of there being A point like that, there would be many points like that.

[DuplexBeGreat]

1-2) One obvious flaw with this idea is that since alternate dimensions are made at every choice fork, there IS a dimension (or system of chaotic interwoven dimensions) in which the Vahi WAS destroyed, and this one has not destroyed the Core Dimension, etc.

Mind=blown.In all seriousness, the topic of time paradoxes is so complex, and there are so many different theories about it, that saying any one thing would happen is impossible. The Vahi's powers don't really make sense in the first place (The idea that time disruption would happen, but would be contained inside of physical walls as defined by the boundaries of a robot. What if someone modified the MU to make it bigger, added more stomach pouches or something? Would the new areas be affected by the loss of the Vahi? And what about now, with gaping holes in the robot? It doesn't make sense that one could literally step across and back over a line and by doing so immerse and un-immerse themselves in temporal entropy. Maybe the MU is a "universe" more so than we thought? Or it could be Greg's "real world physics only applies in Bionicle when I want it to" at work again, although this isn't really physics of that kind...), and in the end you either have one of two options: 1. Bonesii is correct and the Vahi is simultaneously a temporal artifact AND also just another "thing", for lack of a better word, that gets thrown about in the time-travel mayhem that would be caused by its own destruction.Or 2. The Vahi is in fact a sacred artifact spreading its influence across all dimensions/universes, and it is so powerful that it cannot safely be destroyed in ANY universe, and doing so would... idk, so much gobbledegook that the result is probably dependent on your/Greg's/the Great Beings' religion (assuming they don't see themselves as gods), which obviously we're not discussing. This theory has the problem of saying that there is only ONE Vahi in all continuities, which means either no other alternate reality has a Vahi, or the one Vahi exists in all of them at all times, which obviously it didn't in the "Prime" reality.And then I should go off on another line about how regardless of which theory you subscribe to, the Vahi by definition both is and isn't EVERYTHING, which of course supports the original theory that it is the "Master of Dimensions" (ooh, what if Olmaks... No, too much stuff to think about. Brain hurts), and... Well, by logic, you then have the idea that all three theories are simultaneously correct by there being multiple layers of universes/dimensions, each having an infinite number of universes within them, and in some there being a "supreme Vahi" that rules over all time, and in some there being bonesii's theory of the Vahi safely counteracting itself and branches naturally popping up that prevent a "supreme Vahi" from emerging. But THEN there comes the idea of a supreme Vahi already existing by definition and NOT existing by definition, and then the layers theory falls apart by more layers, and eventually this goes beyond Bionicle, and assuming we're still talking about a fictional universe/multiverse/multimultiverse etc where SOME artifact of time, at least, has to exist, then the Vahi merges with every other concept in every book/movie/video game, and now I'm just having way too much fun jotting down my ideas and my head hurts and basically there, again by definition, paradox, and mystery, is no definite answer. Plus I still think that the idea of the Vahi only breaking the universe inside the MU doesn't make sense, but now I'm going to stop my train of thought and hope bonesii's debate and logic skills kill everything I've just said so I don't have to worry about coming up with another argument.

[bonesiii]

In all seriousness, the topic of time paradoxes is so complex, and there are so many different theories about it, that saying any one thing would happen is impossible. The Vahi's powers don't really make sense in the first place (The idea that time disruption would happen, but would be contained inside of physical walls as defined by the boundaries of a robot. What if someone modified the MU to make it bigger, added more stomach pouches or something? Would the new areas be affected by the loss of the Vahi?

Well, first of all this is why I'm very glad Greg doesn't include time travel in Bionicle (okay, other than Bitil).

 

Instead of thinking of it as a time disruption, think of it as the releasing of the power of time, just as there are other powers, but with nobody controlling it. So, random time travel powers are being activated all over inside the MU. Now, powers in Bionicle come with rules. So, the rule would simply be that the other end of the time travel portal could only appear inside a functioning MU.

 

Yes, the logic of it does seem to break down if someone were to somehow expand the MU after this (or in some threads of the jumble...), but it's a little hard to see how someone could do that while that mess is going on inside. Whatever would happen would be bad, methinks.

 

And what about now, with gaping holes in the robot?

My guess is that as long as they were small like the ones the Toa Metru took the Matoran out of, the time chaos would still go on. If you basically self-destructed the MU... not sure but I'd think that would end it.

 

That might be the only way to get out of the chaos, in fact -- to find a time section where such a hole is open, and run for your life, heh. IMO if you stay inside the robot you're more likely to just die at some point... although... there's alternate yous that didn't die... yeah.

It doesn't make sense that one could literally step across and back over a line and by doing so immerse and un-immerse themselves in temporal entropy.

I think the fact that it doesn't make sense is the whole point. We're defining sense according to a rational, linear-causality universe, but the smashing of the Vahi within the MU would turn it into something else entirely. That was Vakama's point in that famous standoff.

 

Maybe the MU is a "universe" more so than we thought? Or it could be Greg's "real world physics only applies in Bionicle when I want it to" at work again, although this isn't really physics of that kind...)

Well the latter is true either way. But yeah, it's an interesting point. Of course, as I was saying recently in the discussion in my MU domes topic, the domes actually are physically inside the robot. It would have been better if they were in a pocket dimension in some ways (and there are at least two pocket dimensions attached to the robot, the City of Silver and the Field of Shadows). If they were, that would explain this easily. But alas, they aren't. (Although overall I'm glad they aren't. It's mostly possible to ignore dimensions in Bionicle's main plot, which is nice and relaxing. )

 

But I think basically Mata Nui's powers make it act as if it was, in some ways (its own gravity, inertial dampening, and this). Plus, it's like a giant bubble where everything inside (more or less) is made of protodermis, so it's different in that obvious way from the rest of the universe.

2. The Vahi is in fact a sacred artifact spreading its influence across all dimensions/universes, and it is so powerful that it cannot safely be destroyed in ANY universe, and doing so would... idk, so much gobbledegook that the result is probably dependent on your/Greg's/the Great Beings' religion (assuming they don't see themselves as gods), which obviously we're not discussing. This theory has the problem of saying that there is only ONE Vahi in all continuities, which means either no other alternate reality has a Vahi, or the one Vahi exists in all of them at all times, which obviously it didn't in the "Prime" reality.

This option could work for a fanfic, but Greg confirmed that the timeline theory is canon for Bionicle, and specifically that for every choice there is always an alternate dimension with the opposite choice. So we can safely conclude from those facts that there are many alternate dimensions in which the Vahi has been destroyed. The only other option is if Greg were to add an exception to that alternate dimension rule, which he hasn't done (so that wouldn't work as a theory, just a fanfic / speculation).

 

 

 

NOTE by the way that the timeline theory is NOT the only possibility that fictional stories can use. LOST used a "time loop" theory for most of its plot, with timelines connected apparently to Desmond specifically, so it dabbled in both (the flash sideways doesn't really count because it was faked in the afterlife basically, but kinda...) And with Back to the Future 1, you could imagine a similar timeline + delayed merging idea, etc. All kinds of options, but for Bionicle it seems the strict timeline theory is correct.

 

the Vahi... is the "Master of Dimensions" (ooh, what if Olmaks... No, too much stuff to think about. Brain hurts)

I almost brought that up too, but yeah. Let's stick with the Vahi for now lol.

Edited March 27, 2013 by bonesiii

[Toatapio Nuva]

The entire Vahi-connected-to-MU-time thing was created by Greg as part of Time Trap for one reason - to make an epic way for Vakama to "win against" Makuta. Before, however, there already existed the fact that losing control of the Vahi would have this same effect. I think it would have worked in the book if Makuta simply didn't want the Vahi to be destroyed and thus made the agreement with Vakama. This alternative way would have solved all these... paradoxes.

[bonesiii]

The entire Vahi-connected-to-MU-time thing was created by Greg as part of Time Trap for one reason - to make an epic way for Vakama to "win against" Makuta. Before, however, there already existed the fact that losing control of the Vahi would have this same effect. I think it would have worked in the book if Makuta simply didn't want the Vahi to be destroyed and thus made the agreement with Vakama. This alternative way would have solved all these... paradoxes.

I don't think Time Trap mentioned any sort of limitation on the range or location of the effect. What Time Trap changed was that previously Greg's vague answers on it gave the impression that the entire universe would simply wink out of existence if the Vahi broke -- but now we learned that instead of time stopping, it turned into chaotic time travel. We only learned of the MU-only thing much later from Greg's answers on here (assuming memory serves, but I read Time Trap again recently and certainly don't recall that ).

[Dual Cee]

 

The entire Vahi-connected-to-MU-time thing was created by Greg as part of Time Trap for one reason - to make an epic way for Vakama to "win against" Makuta. Before, however, there already existed the fact that losing control of the Vahi would have this same effect. I think it would have worked in the book if Makuta simply didn't want the Vahi to be destroyed and thus made the agreement with Vakama. This alternative way would have solved all these... paradoxes.

I don't think Time Trap mentioned any sort of limitation on the range or location of the effect. What Time Trap changed was that previously Greg's vague answers on it gave the impression that the entire universe would simply wink out of existence if the Vahi broke -- but now we learned that instead of time stopping, it turned into chaotic time travel. We only learned of the MU-only thing much later from Greg's answers on here (assuming memory serves, but I read Time Trap again recently and certainly don't recall that ).

 

It would hower have drastic effects outside for Vakama warned Tahu to not lose controll, this could hower be Vakama don't knowing the bond between the MU and the Vahi. Time Trap explained the result of the Vahi Breaking pretty well IMO

Edited March 27, 2013 by Dual Matrix

[fishers64]

I'm going to go with a simple theory: the Vahi is protodermic time power that affects the protodermis in its immediate vicinity. Therefore the effects of the broken Vahi will only extend as far as the protodermic system in which it is based (and not into other dimensions or outer space). Without the mask to focus it, the time energy cannot affect the outside universe. The mask probably does some conversion from protodermic time energy (that only affects protodermis) to changes in time (which can affect anything). Like the difference between fire elemental energy and flame. *waits for inevitable criticism*

Edited March 28, 2013 by fishers64

[Takanuvainika]

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

[bonesiii]

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

Good except for one issue. The statement that it could only destroy linear time inside the MU implies that if you break it outside the MU, nothing much would happen in its immediate vicinity. But the "limited range" theory you put forward would imply it would have the same effect wherever it was broken basically.

[Hitoshura]

 

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

Good except for one issue. The statement that it could only destroy linear time inside the MU implies that if you break it outside the MU, nothing much would happen in its immediate vicinity. But the "limited range" theory you put forward would imply it would have the same effect wherever it was broken basically.

I read Time Trap a few years ago, and I still sort of don't get how the Vahi releases the energy. The above posts sort of explains it, but if the Vahi's broken would it release the energy like a very, very big nova Blast?

[bonesiii]

What do you mean by how? Have you seen the theories I've recently posted about the whole protodermis, legendary powers stuff? I don't wanna rehash if that's not what you mean.

 

Basically yes, it should be like a Nova Blast, at least as I understand it. We've obviously never seen it done, so not sure.

[Takanuvainika]

 

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

Good except for one issue. The statement that it could only destroy linear time inside the MU implies that if you break it outside the MU, nothing much would happen in its immediate vicinity. But the "limited range" theory you put forward would imply it would have the same effect wherever it was broken basically.

Unless of course the Vahi doesn't actually get all it's power from the great discs but it actually draws most of it's power from the matoran universe itself, so outside the MU it is much less powerful.

[bonesiii]

That would make a lot of sense. Nice thinking.

[Meta-Mind]

 

 

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

Good except for one issue. The statement that it could only destroy linear time inside the MU implies that if you break it outside the MU, nothing much would happen in its immediate vicinity. But the "limited range" theory you put forward would imply it would have the same effect wherever it was broken basically.

Unless of course the Vahi doesn't actually get all it's power from the great discs but it actually draws most of it's power from the matoran universe itself, so outside the MU it is much less powerful.

While we're at it, not apply this to all three of the legendary Kanohi? It would certainly make sense of the effect of a broken Mask of Creativity (essentially destroying all creativity in the MU), as well as acting as another "safeguards-R-us" function: if a legendary Kanohi is thrown outside of the MU somehow (possibly by a glitching repair unit), it cannot be used to interfere with Mata Nui's operations unless retrieved.However, I would revise the theory to state that the Vahi (and theoretically the other legendary Kanohi as well) draws its power from proximity to the MU, as it was still useable in the network of tunnels above Mata Nui's face. The only problem with this revision is that the Mask of Life was still useable on Bara Magna - though it does provide a neat secondary explanation for Mata Nui's developing powers, which would've been exhibited in the original 2010 story. (That explanation being that Teridax, and therefore the MU, was getting closer to Mata Nui and the mask, increasing its power.)Thoughts?

[Takanuvainika]

Yes I would say this applies to all the legendary kanohi and I didn't say their powers were completely dependent on the MU just mostly dependent, which means they still have some power outside the MU. This would explain why the the Mask of Life was so much weaker on Bara Magna (at least it seemed that way to me).

[Hitoshura]

 

 

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

Good except for one issue. The statement that it could only destroy linear time inside the MU implies that if you break it outside the MU, nothing much would happen in its immediate vicinity. But the "limited range" theory you put forward would imply it would have the same effect wherever it was broken basically.

Unless of course the Vahi doesn't actually get all it's power from the great discs but it actually draws most of it's power from the matoran universe itself, so outside the MU it is much less powerful.

How do you know it's not going to work when just outside the MU? Like of you're standing right on top of, lets just say, the head. Could the energy pass through the thick shell?

[Takanuvainika]

 

 

 

Here's my theory: When the Vahi was created the energies from the six great discs were converted into time energy, and if the mask were broken the time energy would be released and act like elemental energy that was released by a mask of disruption, basically going everywhere and causing mayhem. But since there is only so much energy in the mask it is unable to pass the MU's shields, therefore it would only effect inside the MU. How does that sound.

Good except for one issue. The statement that it could only destroy linear time inside the MU implies that if you break it outside the MU, nothing much would happen in its immediate vicinity. But the "limited range" theory you put forward would imply it would have the same effect wherever it was broken basically.

Unless of course the Vahi doesn't actually get all it's power from the great discs but it actually draws most of it's power from the matoran universe itself, so outside the MU it is much less powerful.

How do you know it's not going to work when just outside the MU? Like of you're standing right on top of, lets just say, the head. Could the energy pass through the thick shell?

I don't know but the mask of Vision (I can't remember the name) can't see through the shell of the MU and I'm pretty sure makuta can't teleport out, so I don't know if energy could pass through to get to the Vahi.

[bonesiii]

However, I would revise the theory to state that the Vahi (and theoretically the other legendary Kanohi as well) draws its power from proximity to the MU, as it was still useable in the network of tunnels above Mata Nui's face.

Actually, was that scene above the face anyways? The nests themselves were inside the face, obviously, and the showdown happened where the Bahrag were. As far as I know, where they were was their own private chamber. It was near Exo-Toa and other things that seem to clearly be inside the robot (whether that is labeled "MU" or not I'm not sure, but methinks Greg meant that the Vahi would at least work inside the robot).

 

It might make sense for them to move up into the camo-island's bedrock just to be closer to the Va, but not sure that's needed.

 

So, the Vahi scene in the comics was inside the robot, apparently. So the Vahi would have caused the Time Trap scenario.

 

What I'm not sure about is what then would have happened to the people still up on the island.

 

Anywho, I think I agree with the proximity thing, regardless.

 

The only problem with this revision is that the Mask of Life was still useable on Bara Magna - though it does provide a neat secondary explanation for Mata Nui's developing powers, which would've been exhibited in the original 2010 story. (That explanation being that Teridax, and therefore the MU, was getting closer to Mata Nui and the mask, increasing its power.)

We didn't see the Ignika destroyed, and Greg confirmed the Vahi's normal use would work outside the MU, so I don't see a problem there. It's the uber-crazy-intensity that proximity to the MU could fuel, while more limited use could be much less energetic.

 

Not sure if Greg would agree to that theory, but it would seem to make sense of the facts as we have them so far...

 

I don't know but the mask of Vision (I can't remember the name) can't see through the shell of the MU and I'm pretty sure makuta can't teleport out, so I don't know if energy could pass through to get to the Vahi.

Akaku. I don't remember anything either way about Vision, but you're incorrect about Makuta teleportation, apparently. Unless you're thinking of something I'm missing. But Makuta was under that shell in the faceoff with the Toa Mata at the end of MNOG (remember Takua had to go under it to reach the Mangai), and Makuta used his teleportation power to get the Toa Mata out after "losing", so his teleportation power can go through it.

 

He also later teleported Lewa and company into space, but that's probably from Mata Nui's power rather than his own. Either way, that proves that at least some kind of teleportation can go through the shell.

 

As for whether the energy would pass through though I'm not sure but I think it's just about being in close proximity to a large amount of the artificial protodermis. This includes the shell, the artificial bedrock of Mata Nui Island, and all the mass of the island itself (other than imported things like the remains of Aqua Magna creatures, and the water itself).

 

 

 

Wait a sec. I just remembered, Greg actually HAS indirectly confirmed that the ubercrazy chaos would happen if it was smashed on the island. The very quote that confirmed that Vakama's Time Trap statement was accurate, in fact. He said that a major part of why Makuta didn't just try to go steal the Vahi from Ta-Koro (or send overpowering Rahi raids or something, I forget the exact wording, so someone might wanna try to find it via google cache if curious) was that Makuta believed Vakama would smash it. And then he said that if that happened, the time chaos (my wording) would happen.

 

So apparently that is close enough proximity to set the whole MU off.

 

Maybe "MU" in this case means that the time chaos itself would also be proximity-based, not "in" the MU per se, but if you were standing close to the outside of the robot you'd be "in the zone" as it were. Only if you got far enough away as the Ignika did to get away from the countdown thing would you experience no effects from it. Methinks...

Edited March 28, 2013 by bonesiii

[Gears The Toa]

What if the robot moves? I mean, say mata-nui moved his arm once. If you live there and go back in time, would you fall into space?

[bonesiii]

What if the robot moves? I mean, say mata-nui moved his arm once. If you live there and go back in time, would you fall into space?

The power could also have a rule that it targets the same location within the Matoran Universe, not space-time itself (this would make a ton of sense because of the rule that's already known that it affects the MU specifically).

 

Time travel movies and stories almost always include such a rule even without the apparent possibility of anything like protodermis to guide them. In Back to the Future for example, the Delorean always magically comes out in the same spot with respect to Earth's geography, even though time travel goes through timespace, so it should come out (generally) in outer space (and sometimes inside the Earth's core, high in the atmosphere, etc.). Since Earth moves through space (and spins). So if it's okay even for all those stories where there's no convenient way to explain it, all the more so with protodermis which can include special rules.

 

In fact, assuming Mata Nui was moving through space at the time, most exits would open into space anyways without such a rule.