Combining Different-level Kanoka?

[Makuta Almanax]

Level one to six Kanoka lose their powers when they are forged into Kanohi, and level sevens make Noble masks and level eights can make Great Kanohi.

But with this in mind, what would happen if a level 8 and a level 7 Kanoka were used to make a mask? Would the result be a Noble, a Great, or perhaps an inferior Great Kanohi?

 

Take a scenario; a Ta-Matoran is making a mask using a level 7 Reconstitute at Random and a level 8 Teleport disks. What would the resulting Kakama be? Or is this type of combination impossible?

[Toatapio Nuva]

This is not entirely certain, but I believe it will become a noble Kanohi. Kanohi that require multiple masks need to have the power of all those disks, so if one is of lower level, there is not enough power for a great mask.

[Makuta Almanax]

That would make sense. I suppose for obvious reasons it wouldn't be a common practise among Ta-Matoran do mix level 7 and 8 disks since if the result is noble then you just wasted a Toa-level disk.

[bonesiii]

This came up in a recentishish topic and I concluded that you should round down from the average. So (7+8)/2 = 7.5, rounds down to 7. Since there are no decimals in the level system; even a hypothetical 7.9 should still round down, rather than up.

[Makuta Almanax]

That does make sense. I suppose the only other question would be "are these mixed Noble Kanohi somehow better than those made only from level 7 kanoka". I'd imagine not in this case.Although, I must admit using averages to work it out is really sound reasoning.

[Toatapio Nuva]

There are only same-level noble and great Kanohi. Of course there might always be some differences, but they are simply so minuscule that it doesn't show in practical use... who knows?

 

The counting with averages also brings another thing up, though. A Kualsi, for example, can be forged from a single level 8 disk, the teleport disk. Most of Kanohi, and all of the most basic ones, however, require multiple ones, even up to three. That means that a Kakama needs double the amount of energy to be created than a Kualsi. A Kaukau needs the same energy times three. Which brings up the question why the 12 most basic Kanohi are so common, given the extra power needed to produce them. We've only seen one Kualsi and Kiril respectively, although they are much easier and cheaper to make.

 

Hmm...

[Toa Talo]

Perhaps it would make a noble kakama that is a little stronger but only a little.

[Makuta Almanax]

There are only same-level noble and great Kanohi. Of course there might always be some differences, but they are simply so minuscule that it doesn't show in practical use... who knows?

 

The counting with averages also brings another thing up, though. A Kualsi, for example, can be forged from a single level 8 disk, the teleport disk. Most of Kanohi, and all of the most basic ones, however, require multiple ones, even up to three. That means that a Kakama needs double the amount of energy to be created than a Kualsi. A Kaukau needs the same energy times three. Which brings up the question why the 12 most basic Kanohi are so common, given the extra power needed to produce them. We've only seen one Kualsi and Kiril respectively, although they are much easier and cheaper to make.

 

Hmm...

 

Well as I recall the Matoran who make the Kanoka can't predict the powers since that is down to the properties and purity of the Protodermis they use, or if they could predict ti then it wouldn't be too accurate. And then considering that Great and Noble Kanohi would be fairly unneeded since Toa and Turaga don't make habits of breaking their masks, the energy thing seems like a moot point. I don't think extra power is needed to produce a powerless mask. Indeed, do you even need specific disks to produce powerless kanohi?

[bonesiii]

Perhaps it would make a noble kakama that is a little stronger but only a little.

In terms of strength of the power, there's no evidence for that. It seems to be "quantized" to integer-levels, no decimals. However, my guess is the extra energy would make the Kanoka last longer (since they slowly drain energy and then stop working). As for how that affects masks since they don't stop working, not sure.

 

Well as I recall the Matoran who make the Kanoka can't predict the powers since that is down to the properties and purity of the Protodermis they use, or if they could predict ti then it wouldn't be too accurate

No, all the known formulas are entirely predictable, and anytime a new one is discovered it will be known (assuming they kept track of what they were mixing).

 

 

Which brings up the question why the 12 most basic Kanohi are so common, given the extra power needed to produce them. We've only seen one Kualsi and Kiril respectively, although they are much easier and cheaper to make.

I've often wondered this. My guess is that they simply like those powers better / they're more useful as masks, whereas the eight basic powers are considered to be more useful as Kanoka or tools. However, it's also possible that the only reason the story focused on the Matoran who happened to wear those masks is set-based, since they were the masks that the included Toa happened to wear, and the eight basic masks might actually be more common.

 

It might also be like how in real life, women tend to like to have diamonds, even though a bit of broken glass would be easier to obtain and arguably a more economically use of resources since the hardness of diamonds has practical industrial benefits. A more expensive mask might be seen as a status symbol.

 

 

I don't think extra power is needed to produce a powerless mask. Indeed, do you even need specific disks to produce powerless kanohi?

I think the idea is that the majority of Toa we haven't seen might use the eight basic masks (but maybe not, re: status and usefulness), and the Matoran would have them more often to honor those Toa. For example, maybe the members of the unidentified team that stopped the Kanohi Dragon originally had some of the unestablished ones. Plus, the GBs might make them more common.

 

As for whether they bother mixing the right power for the right shape for Matoran-level masks, the one possible upside to doing so is that if they happen to be destined to be Toa, and if Toa-izing doesn't change basic shape or power, then this would prevent the wrong power ending up with the wrong shape. However, none of these assumptions are confirmed as far as I know, it's just what seems most likely. It's also possible they just grab whatever disk and make it into whatever shape they feel like, but I doubt it.

Edited May 9, 2013 by bonesiii

[Toatapio Nuva]

Since any disk can be shaped into any kind of mask, it would explain why the most common masks are... well... most common.

 

Bonesii has a good point about the "in case they turn Toa" point. No one in Metru Nui was really expecting anyone to become Toa before the time of the Toa Metru, but it might be an old custom to use the right power disks for right shapes to avoid confusion, as Bonesii said. I also lol'd at the status thing but why not? It seems reasonable certain masks would help bring certain status.

 

As for the powers being more useful when combining disks, I'd personally choose the Kualsi over many of the six basic Kanohi.

[fishers64]

It may simply be the six basic Kanohi are seen to be practical in everyday use, especially on Metru Nui. For example, while a Pakari might allow a Toa to lift a building off a helpless Matoran, and a Hau would help protect a Matoran from an enemy attack, a Kualsi might not be so useful, since you can just take a chute anyway.

 

The same logic could apply to why the other simpler powers aren't made into masks - why do that when you have plenty of Kanoka around that do the same thing? If you're going to put it on someone's face, might as well make it a power that they can use if they transform, and one that will actually help.

 

Thus I find the jewelry comparison invalid, as jewelry is a painful encumberment to freedom of movement, and has very little practical use. The six basic Kanohi do have a practical use, especially in the environment of Metru Nui.

 

As for the OP's question, I suggest looking here: Mask Making

[Hitoshura]

Maybe not all six, but you do have a point. I mean, there are other masks that could do different things as well that could be more useful. Like a Kadin could be more useful than a Miru, in most ways.

[fishers64]

Maybe not all six, but you do have a point. I mean, there are other masks that could do different things as well that could be more useful. Like a Kadin could be more useful than a Miru, in most ways.

 

1-3) To start with, you are assuming that every mask maker has a choice of, say, Kadin or Miru. That’s not the case. There were no Kadin in Metru Nui, so obviously they did not have the option of making them there.

 

22. Will you probably tell us which Kanoka are needed to forge the new masks we didn't know of when you provided us the list.(Kadin, Olmak, Elda...)

22) Probably not, because they most likely used disks other than those in Metru Nui

If you can make a Kadin, more power to you, if you can't, you use what you've got.

The following stuff is just for Metru Nui. There are eight Kanoka powers. 1.Reconstitutes at random - Temporarily scrambles the molecules of the target, resulting in a new shape.This mask could possibly be very dangerous, as an inexperienced user could end up scrambling themselves. Plus, anything they needed to be reconstituted, they could just shoot a disk at it. Much safer. 2. Freezes - Covers the target in a thick coating of ice.This is why we have Ko-Matoran and Toa of Ice - and once again, no need for an ice mask when you can just shoot a disk. 3.Weakens - Reduces the strength of a living or nonliving target. Can be used to bring down structures.Same danger as Reconstitutes at Random, although less severe/lethal. It might be a nice mask to have, but once again, there are plenty of disks. 4.Removes poison - Cures the effects of toxic substances.Also nice to have, but useless unless you encounter poison, and if you do, you can find a disk. 5. Enlarges - Causes target to grow. Rate of growth is tied to the power level of the disk.6.Shrinks - Causes target to reduce in size. Rate of shrinkage is tied to the power level of the disk.These ones are a bit more difficult to justify, but enlarging or shinking yourself in a city is probably not a good idea. (Growth = building damage, Shink= being ground up in machinery or stepped on, probably) The masks of Growth and Diminishment only affect the wearer, which, if we take the hint, would render Weakness and Reconstitute at Random particularly undesirable. 7.Regenerates - Can be used to repair a target, normally a structure or piece of equipment.We've seen this as a mask, but when a disk will do the same thing... 8.Teleports - Moves target to another location. Range of teleportation is tied to the power level of the disk.I've already hit the Kualsi. Now, there are six basic Mask powers that we saw in Metru Nui, which the Toa Metru had. 1. HunaHiding from enemies is easy in the city, but this mask will ensure you are. (And you won't get stepped on! Bonus!)2. MahikiSame idea. Looking like someone else is very helpful in an anonymous urban environment. 3. RuruAvoid being in a dark alley. Or alone in a darkened section of the archives, with no light...4. KomauA people power is best used where there are a lot of people about. Also good for getting Matoran away from danger, getting danger away from the Matoran, etc. 5. TelekinesisVery helpful in fixing broken machines and getting Matoran out of harm's way, among other things. 6. TranslationIn a city full of ancient inscriptions and hidden knowledge, you will need this. Also useful when encountering sapient Rahi. And I've already covered the Hau. So, to give my argument some teeth, the eight standard Kanoka powers are of very specific uses, whereas the Kanohi I just mentioned are more general purpose and have a wider variety of applications, especially in the city where the Matoran lived. The Matoran didn't know what threats they would be facing in the future, so it makes sense to have masks with more flexible power applications, which is more than worth the added expense.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Um, that's nice, but there's just one problem with that...

 

Matoran can't use mask powers.

[theyoungestchild]

Um, that's nice, but there's just one problem with that...

 

Matoran can't use mask powers.

Matoran made Great Kanohi in case a Toa needed a certain mask.

[fishers64]

Um, that's nice, but there's just one problem with that...

 

Matoran can't use mask powers.

 

Let's say I have a Matoran, a random Matoran with the Removes Poison mask power. He turns into a Toa, perhaps out in the sticks of Po-Metru with no suva, which is possible, and has to face some Rahi. He survives whatever threat is out there, but his mask isn't of any use. His village is constantly being threatened with attack. In that situation, is it really practicable to leave to get a worthwhile mask, or to send a villager through certain danger to get it? No.

 

Basically, the Matoran of Metru Nui wanted the Toa of their city to have the mask powers they needed ready and able. The best way to do so was to have those masks already on their faces. An insurance policy, if you will.

 

Also, if we went with the "cheap Matoran masks" method, how many Matoran are destined to become Toa in, say, Metru Nui? When will they become Toa? How many "useful Great Masks" will you need to stash in the Great Temple in case a whole bunch of Matoran become Toa at once? 1? 6? 20? 200? You will never have enough, especially if you're paranoid and facing Rahi attacks, Kanohi Dragons, Dark Hunters...And Great Masks are expensive, far more expensive than Matoran Masks. By the time you've assured that 300 or more spontaneously transformed Toa will have all the masks that they need, it would be more cost effective to just give them all powerless Matoran masks that will transform into something that will be useful if that particular Matoran became Toa. And since the mask makers don't know who's destined, best to give them to everyone.

 

To me, it makes sense...

Edited May 10, 2013 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

It does indeed make perfect sense.

 

Also, by comparing it to jewelry I merely meant that strict practicality for the current end-goal is not always desired. You're absolutely right that it would have the practical insurance-policy use too. I guess what my point was is that a Matoran wearing a properly mixed Pakari for example says "I'm ready to be a Toa if I have to", so that could also have status benefits even if he never does turn into a Toa, psychologically speaking. But wearing a mask shaped like a Mask of Removes Poison might say "I'm unprepared in general."

 

So bottom line is, the most useful of the eight basic powers already are masks (and likely just not seen among Metru Nui Matoran in the story only due to set-related timing issues, not story), and other masks are also more useful. So whether on a Matoran's face or a Toa's, it makes sense to have the more useful powers mixed, and thus represented with the right shape, even if it's just for a "gamble" that that Matoran might become a Toa. Since some Matoran do, it's best to make it a universal policy so destined Matoran slips through the cracks.

[Toatapio Nuva]

 

Um, that's nice, but there's just one problem with that...

 

Matoran can't use mask powers.

 

Let's say I have a Matoran, a random Matoran with the Removes Poison mask power. He turns into a Toa, perhaps out in the sticks of Po-Metru with no suva, which is possible, and has to face some Rahi. He survives whatever threat is out there, but his mask isn't of any use. His village is constantly being threatened with attack. In that situation, is it really practicable to leave to get a worthwhile mask, or to send a villager through certain danger to get it? No.

 

Basically, the Matoran of Metru Nui wanted the Toa of their city to have the mask powers they needed ready and able. The best way to do so was to have those masks already on their faces. An insurance policy, if you will.

 

Also, if we went with the "cheap Matoran masks" method, how many Matoran are destined to become Toa in, say, Metru Nui? When will they become Toa? How many "useful Great Masks" will you need to stash in the Great Temple in case a whole bunch of Matoran become Toa at once? 1? 6? 20? 200? You will never have enough, especially if you're paranoid and facing Rahi attacks, Kanohi Dragons, Dark Hunters...And Great Masks are expensive, far more expensive than Matoran Masks. By the time you've assured that 300 or more spontaneously transformed Toa will have all the masks that they need, it would be more cost effective to just give them all powerless Matoran masks that will transform into something that will be useful if that particular Matoran became Toa. And since the mask makers don't know who's destined, best to give them to everyone.

 

To me, it makes sense...

 

Whoops, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. This makes perfect sense, yes.

 

Yet I disagree with a poison removal mask being useless. The Toa may well face enemies with poisoning powers. Look how many evil entities like that are known even now!

[fishers64]

Yet I disagree with a poison removal mask being useless. The Toa may well face enemies with poisoning powers. Look how many evil entities like that are known even now!

 

Yes, but in those instances they could just a use a disk to remove the poison, provided that they had one on hand. Also, poisoning for any length of time is bad, hence the preference for masks that help you avoid being poisoned in the first place. The mask merely maintains the status quo of the fight, not avoid the danger or defeat the enemy. And what if a Toa with that mask encounters an enemy that doesn't use poison? Then their mask really is useless.

[airvortex]

 

Yet I disagree with a poison removal mask being useless. The Toa may well face enemies with poisoning powers. Look how many evil entities like that are known even now!

 

Yes, but in those instances they could just a use a disk to remove the poison, provided that they had one on hand. Also, poisoning for any length of time is bad, hence the preference for masks that help you avoid being poisoned in the first place. The mask merely maintains the status quo of the fight, not avoid the danger or defeat the enemy. And what if a Toa with that mask encounters an enemy that doesn't use poison? Then their mask really is useless.

True, I see your point, but don't forget that there have been masks in use by main characters that are useless in most situations.

Two such examples (in my opinion) are:

 

KauKau: only works with water or on a toa of water, also only works for a limited time (Gali also mentions this somewhere)

 

Zatth: Seems pointless to be able to summon a completely random rahi that you are unable to control. I do see how this could cause a distraction in battle, but then chances are that the rahi will turn and attack you, or that if you try to summon a rahi for distraction, you only attract ones that aren't relevant to the situation at hand

[fishers64]

 

 

Yet I disagree with a poison removal mask being useless. The Toa may well face enemies with poisoning powers. Look how many evil entities like that are known even now!

Yes, but in those instances they could just a use a disk to remove the poison, provided that they had one on hand. Also, poisoning for any length of time is bad, hence the preference for masks that help you avoid being poisoned in the first place. The mask merely maintains the status quo of the fight, not avoid the danger or defeat the enemy. And what if a Toa with that mask encounters an enemy that doesn't use poison? Then their mask really is useless.

 

True, I see your point, but don't forget that there have been masks in use by main characters that are useless in most situations.Two such examples (in my opinion) are: KauKau: only works with water or on a toa of water, also only works for a limited time (Gali also mentions this somewhere) Zatth: Seems pointless to be able to summon a completely random rahi that you are unable to control. I do see how this could cause a distraction in battle, but then chances are that the rahi will turn and attack you, or that if you try to summon a rahi for distraction, you only attract ones that aren't relevant to the situation at hand

Which is why I was limiting my analysis to Metru Nui.

 

There's plenty of water outside of that city, and most of the MU is islands, so water-breathing makes some degree of sense, and Artahka giving Gali that mask makes sense in light of it, since he didn't know where they would be needed.

 

As for the Zatth, that's the Ignika's doing, not the Matoran. We never see a Matoran wearing a Zatth (as far as I know), and there are situations where that mask could be useful (like an entire island of tame Rahi, for instance, but we never see that in the story either).

 

But the discussion I was going off of was why "expensive" masks with valuable powers were given to Matoran. I think that the masks given to Matoran "in case they became Toa" would differ by region. If a Hau would help, Matoran would wear powerless Haus. If the Zatth would help, Matoran would wear powerless Zatths. But I tend to think that the latter is less likely.

 

Wow, this is a tangent off a tangent off a tangent. It's way off topic, and I think it's my fault. Sorry, but I have no idea how to rope this back in...

[airvortex]

Back on topic.... I think personally that when two kanoka are of differing power levels are mixed to make a kanohi, the mask will always be of the lower number. I think of it as being like mixing two cups of water. One cup is clear, this is the higher level disk. The water in the other cup is muddy, this is the lower level disk. What happens when you pour both cups together? You get water that is still muddy, the impurities in the muddy water sully the clean water. Does this make sense?