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Hero Factory or Slizer/RoboRiders?


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#1 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 09:59 PM

Which was the better LEGO theme, Hero Factory or the Slizers and RoboRiders, those weird-looking BIONICLE forerunners? I'd like to know your thoughts on the two (well, three) themes compared as sets, as storylines, and overall.

 

I only have the Slizer set Fire, and three Hero Factory sets, all heroes from 2010-11. Hero Factory is the obvious story choice for me. I'm not sure if Slizer and RoboRiders even had a real story. I know there was the idea of them settling disputes on the Judge planet or something, but, as far as I know, there were no comics or anything. As for sets, I think Slizer and RoboRiders were the better ones. Overall, I think the pre-BIONICLE lines are better than the post-BIONICLE one.


Edited by Master Inika, Nov 11 2013 - 10:31 PM.

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#2 Offline Black Six

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 10:10 PM

Moving to LEGO Discussion...
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#3 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 09 2013 - 11:59 AM

Hero Factory has more of a story, its characters are more relatable, its characters tend to have more articulation, and it is generally a lot less focused on gimmickry than Slizers. Hero Factory parts are also a lot more useful for action-figure building.For me, Hero Factory wins easily. This isn't to say Slizers was abysmal. It was great for its time.
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#4 Online PyroLizard Prime

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Posted Nov 09 2013 - 12:43 PM

Meh, I liked the gimmicks on the throwbots and roboriders, and the sets had more variation than most HF sets.

 

I also liked that the story in Throwbots was so vague, as it let you make up some of the more key elements.

 

I'm not saying that HF is bad, I just prefer Throwbots/Slizers over them.


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#5 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Nov 10 2013 - 04:51 PM

I think Hero Factory wins in my book by a landslide, in terms of versatility, personality, set design and story.I feel like this topic could have easily been a poll...


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#6 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 10 2013 - 06:33 PM

Meh, I liked the gimmicks on the throwbots and roboriders, and the sets had more variation than most HF sets.

More variation? Really? I think you're selling Hero Factory a bit short here. The six main Roboriders all had the same sort of two-wheeled, with the only differences being the type of head and gearbox they used and the weapons that were attached to the sides. Even though they were built differently, it hardly had any impact on the repetitive appearance of the resulting sets.As far as the Throwbots were concerned, I think I can agree with you that there's more variety in builds than in Hero Factory. Four out of twelve were near-identical humanoid builds (five if you Millennia in "biker mode"), but there were five that were unquestionably non-humanoid: Torch, Turbo, Electro, Granite, and Flare. The remaining three included two "titans" and one humanoid that deviated from the build of the other humanoid Throwbots (Jet). So you're right, the Throwbots had a pretty good track record. Overall, the reason BIONICLE and Hero Factory both have less of that balance is because the Roboriders had abysmal sales, showing the LEGO Group that kids preferred action figures that they could identify with.

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#7 Offline Kopekemaster

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Posted Nov 11 2013 - 08:30 AM

I would have to say Slizers. I know, I know, I'm a stickler for story, and that is one reason why I haven't been to excited about HF.

But I have four or five Slizers, and I think they are really cool. The build of them is very unique, and we haven't really seen anything using any similar techiques (other than the Nui Rama).


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#8 Online Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 11 2013 - 01:07 PM

It boils down to bad story vs. no story, since set-wise Slizers and Roboriders win clean.

 

It's not an obvious choice, but story-wise I would choose Slizers and Roboriders too, because at least no story means room for imagination. HF is less versatile in that regard and the story is not very inspiring.


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#9 Offline Manterax Prime

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Posted Nov 11 2013 - 04:03 PM

I think Hero Factory wins in my book by a landslide, in terms of versatility, personality, set design and story.

 

Agreed.


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#10 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 11 2013 - 05:30 PM

It boils down to bad story vs. no story, since set-wise Slizers and Roboriders win clean.

I'm puzzled how you came to that conclusion. Seriously, worm-gear-based transforming functions that take several minutes to work? Less than ten points of articulation on the standard-size figures? Limbs that come in just one awkward and extremely specialized shape and size? Highly specialized gearboxes? The fact that Throwbots had more non-humanoids is really the ONLY way I can figure it beats Hero Factory as far as sets are concerned.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Nov 11 2013 - 05:30 PM.

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#11 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Nov 11 2013 - 10:43 PM

 

It boils down to bad story vs. no story, since set-wise Slizers and Roboriders win clean.

I'm puzzled how you came to that conclusion. Seriously, worm-gear-based transforming functions that take several minutes to work? Less than ten points of articulation on the standard-size figures? Limbs that come in just one awkward and extremely specialized shape and size? Highly specialized gearboxes? The fact that Throwbots had more non-humanoids is really the ONLY way I can figure it beats Hero Factory as far as sets are concerned.

 

I feel like I should mention the 1.0 versions of Stormer, Stringer, and Bulk each had one immovable arm with weapons built into it. I found those particularly irritation, because they (Stringer's, at least) were noticeably shorter than the other arm and looked empty when viewed from any angle except the side. Also, Stringer's entire weapon arm was solid black, while his other arm was orange with a black hand. This made the color scheme feel uneven to me. Whenever BIONICLE used two different arms, they usually did it well (although there were exceptions, like the Toa Hordika and Piraka).


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#12 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Nov 12 2013 - 08:55 AM

Looking past the nostalgia, I have to admit the Slizers' set designs were quite poor. Many of the bodies were bizarrely shaped and a bit undersized, and subsequently lacked scale. Inserting large gears just so the head could be slightly raised or lowered was pretty pointless. The specific parts also had problems - the L-shaped limb was ridiculously overused, the disc arm was needlessly big and clunky, and (by contrast) the System pieces used as weapons were woefully small.

 

Of course it's not all bad. The Fire, Ice, Water and Jungle sets obviously paved the way for Tahu, Kopaka, Gali and Lewa. The bright colours were appealing, and the bodies were at least compact. Neither can be said about many of the later Bionicle sets. One thing I find interesting is that in Bionicle there was recurring confusion about the difference between Stone and Earth, whereas Slizers featured 'Rock', who appeared to be both.

 

I can't really make a comparison with Hero Factory. There's just too much time and evolution between them.


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#13 Online Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 12 2013 - 03:02 PM

I value the Slizer/Roborider sets more because of two things:

 

1. Piece endurance

2. Design creativity

 

HF sets have barely any effort put into them design-wise. They are merely humanoid action figured. At least with Roboriders and Slizers, there was more thought put into the idea behind them.

 

And yes, I am grossly simplifying things and being a bit disproportionate even... I just can't shake the general HF hatred that's been surrounding me since 2010.


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#14 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 12 2013 - 07:10 PM

I value the Slizer/Roborider sets more because of two things: 1. Piece endurance2. Design creativity HF sets have barely any effort put into them design-wise. They are merely humanoid action figured. At least with Roboriders and Slizers, there was more thought put into the idea behind them. And yes, I am grossly simplifying things and being a bit disproportionate even... I just can't shake the general HF hatred that's been surrounding me since 2010.

That's a terrible insult to the real, human designers who put lots of hard work into Hero Factory sets. Including Christoffer Raundahl, the designer of the original Tahu and Kopaka sets, and of Toa Mahri Matoro and Toa Mahri Kongu, among many other BIONICLE sets. Go ahead, insult the sets all you want. But NEVER insult or trivialize the effort the designers put into them. That's just a horrible, miserable, sickening thing to do.If designing a humanoid action figure takes barely any effort, then barely any effort went into any of the Toa ever (or into any BIONICLE villain set after 2005). Moreover, plenty of Hero Factory sets aren't humanoid. Raw-Jaw, Scorpio, Fangz, Jawblade, Thornraxx, XT4, and Dragon Bolt are unquestionably non-humanoid, and there are also several non-traditional humanoids like Corroder, Toxic Reapa, Stormer XL, and Bruizer.The Roboriders' non-humanoid builds might have been more imaginative (by a very narrow definition of imagination), but their unnatural-looking designs were the main reason they sold poorly, and the reason the heroes of BIONICLE and Hero Factory were always humanoid ever since.EDIT: By the way, Christoffer Raundahl was a Slizer designer too! He's credited as the inventor on the patent documents for the Slizer foot, throwing arm, and throwing disk! Twelve years later he was credited as one of the inventors on the patent documents for the Hero Factory character and creature building system.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Nov 12 2013 - 07:23 PM.

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#15 Online Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 01:36 AM

I conveyed my message poorly: I never intended to insult other people.

 

If I paint a picture with great love and dedication at one point and then 10 years later paint another one paying no attention to detail, it's ok for others to notice and criticize that. It's not an insult to me on a personal level. Just critique of my work.

 

That's what causes the difference of opinion, but I may be wrong... I don't know how much effort was put into the Slizers and Roboriders. They did let LEGO down, after all, so they might have paid more attention to making them successful.

 

Anyway, the point was not the humanoid shape, but that the HF sets really lack anything more than that. The Bionicle sets involved collectibles and very neat designs. They were new in the sense that they differed greatly from pre-existing sets. HF sets may have new parts and slightly new builds, even, but they don't even come close. Roboriders were kinda ugly, sure, but at least they had more complexity.


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#16 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 11:49 AM

I conveyed my message poorly: I never intended to insult other people. If I paint a picture with great love and dedication at one point and then 10 years later paint another one paying no attention to detail, it's ok for others to notice and criticize that. It's not an insult to me on a personal level. Just critique of my work.

That's the thing though. You can't just automatically assume that there was no effort put into something, especially if the idea that there was no effort is utterly implausible.

Anyway, the point was not the humanoid shape, but that the HF sets really lack anything more than that. The Bionicle sets involved collectibles and very neat designs. They were new in the sense that they differed greatly from pre-existing sets. HF sets may have new parts and slightly new builds, even, but they don't even come close. Roboriders were kinda ugly, sure, but at least they had more complexity.

Again, though, what of the many extremely creative Hero Factory villain sets like Scorpio, Witch Doctor, Thornraxx, Jawblade, Toxic Reapa, XT4, Bruizer, and Dragon Bolt? Not to mention heroes like the 2012 Evo with his Tank Arm and reinforced boots, the 2012 Stringer with his thorough sonic motifs and guitar-shaped sonic cannon, or the 2013 Stormer with his flip-up rocket launchers and awesome ice sword? These are all FAR less generic than, say, the Toa Metru (after all, Toa Metru masks were no more "collectible" than Hero Factory helmets, and Toa Metru all used the exact same armor in the exact same configuration), Vahki, or Piraka.Complexity is not always an ideal to be strived for. Make a model too complex and its design simply becomes inefficient. If you can reduce complexity without reducing detail, that's often an admirable goal. If complexity on its own defined your desired goal for set design, then the ideal constraction set would be a puzzle of tiny connectors with a construction style like an Erector set that you need special tools to put together or take apart.Furthermore, the Throwbots and Roboriders achieved a lot of their supposed "complexity" with horribly specialized parts, whereas Hero Factory parts (at least, since the second wave) are mostly designed with versatility in mind. There's a reason why parts like this, this, this, and this haven't appeared in a whole lot of sets or MOCs in many years — they're just generally not very versatile part designs.Hero Factory has its own share of weak part designs, of course, such as the 1.0 and 2.0 Hero chestplates and 1.0 arm weapons. But it quickly evolved past those. If anything, one of the biggest disadvantages of Slizer and Roboriders in this comparison is that they didn't last long enough to evolve in that same way. Their first impression was, for the most part, the only chance they had to make an impression of any kind.

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#17 Offline Makaru

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 12:43 PM

Make way for the oldest of grumps.

 

So let's get a fact out of the way. Hero Factory's story could be just Jimi Stringer throwing damp paper towels at a wall and counting the ones that stick, and it would have a better story than Slizers. Slizers was poorly documented, with a confusing pseudo-story Where maybe half of them were villians, or they were just two factions and then an apocalypse and now there's these other guys??? Oh also there's a million disks. They all have power levels. No, we don't know what they're supposed to do.

 

But why is that?

 

Let's consider what we had for action-type figures before Slizers. All there was were these guys:

 

Posted Image

We existed!

 

These guys closest attempt at a story was Cyberslam in which a human (humans??? I literally have no idea) was/were pitted against robots and a remarkably unnamed cyborg villain. Nothing remarkably ground-breaking, but still successful nonetheless. Midway through it's run, Lego made a bold move.

 

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Available in 7 delicious flavours.

 

Slizers was entirely unprecedented. It launched the ball and socket design, the constraction style build and the themed robot world genre for Lego simultaneously. Lego literally had nothing like this before. Roboriders, Hero-Factory, Chima Ultrabuilds and even Bionicle owe a generous debt to Slizers for blazing the trail. Slizers had a terrible story, but because the focus was on trying to sell this new style of build, unique in every way.

 

 

Hero Factory is incredibly well-built, but on the shoulders of giants.

 

And the biggest, oldest giant is Slizers.


Edited by Makaru, Nov 13 2013 - 12:51 PM.

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#18 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 02:00 PM

Make way for the oldest of grumps.<snip> Hero Factory is incredibly well-built, but on the shoulders of giants. And the biggest, oldest giant is Slizers.

Can't argue with any of that (except one part about Cyber-Slam; I'm fairly sure that bad guy had a name in one of the Mania Magazines). Slizers was definitely far more groundbreaking than Hero Factory, as was BIONICLE a couple years later. But I think when just talking about which is better, I'd go with the theme that followed more than a decade of learning and development rather than the one that preceded it. Slizers was a rudimentary concept, which didn't have a whole lot of precedent informing its story and design direction.The elegance of the Hero Factory building system, the depth of the BIONICLE story... none of those things would have come about without Slizers paving the way. But the beauty of these things is that they built on what had come before in one way or another. Slizer's ambiguously competitive story did not inspire and excite kids the way the later themes' good-versus-evil stories did, and they were not inclined to identify with the unnatural-looking designs of the Roboriders on the same level as with the more humanoid heroes of BIONICLE and Hero Factory.As I mentioned before, Christoffer Raundahl was a Slizer designer before he was a designer for BIONICLE or Hero Factory. He was more than just a witness to the many design changes in these themes — he was in many ways leading the charge. So it wasn't a matter of one design team going away and another design team taking their place. The constraction designers were learning and growing as designers all along the way.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Nov 13 2013 - 02:01 PM.

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#19 Online Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 03:04 PM

I have to admit at this stage that I think too much about the story. It kind of hinders my judgment, especially concerning HF since I just have this predefined attitude towards it...

 

Probably set-wise, HF wins by some margin then. I still think HF sets are uglier than Slizers were, but that is merely a matter of personal taste.

 

One thing I hate about the HF sets is that they are built to look menacing and have all this super-powered weapons. Not like Kanoka or Zamor launhers with varying effects, but weapons designed to destroy... with heroes as well as villains! This goes against my belief that LEGO should retain its anti-violence policy. What does this have to do with comparing HF to Slizers and Roboriders? Not much, especially since the Slizers were kinda made to be violent too... thought not in as obvious a way as HF. I think HF conveys, in a sense, wrong kind of values. Again, Slizers is hardly any better since we didn't have a storyline to explain their need for weapons, like Bionicle had.

 

Yeah, I'll just try and remain reasonable.


Edited by Toatapio Nuva, Nov 13 2013 - 03:05 PM.

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#20 Offline Pereki

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 03:45 PM

(except one part about Cyber-Slam; I'm fairly sure that bad guy had a name in one of the Mania Magazines).

He did indeed; Sammy Cyborg.


Edited by Tazakk, Nov 13 2013 - 03:45 PM.

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#21 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 04:23 PM

I have to admit at this stage that I think too much about the story. It kind of hinders my judgment, especially concerning HF since I just have this predefined attitude towards it...

 

Probably set-wise, HF wins by some margin then. I still think HF sets are uglier than Slizers were, but that is merely a matter of personal taste.

 

One thing I hate about the HF sets is that they are built to look menacing and have all this super-powered weapons. Not like Kanoka or Zamor launhers with varying effects, but weapons designed to destroy... with heroes as well as villains! This goes against my belief that LEGO should retain its anti-violence policy. What does this have to do with comparing HF to Slizers and Roboriders? Not much, especially since the Slizers were kinda made to be violent too... thought not in as obvious a way as HF. I think HF conveys, in a sense, wrong kind of values. Again, Slizers is hardly any better since we didn't have a storyline to explain their need for weapons, like Bionicle had.

 

Yeah, I'll just try and remain reasonable.

Seriously? The Hero Factory plasma shooters (the most common weapon in the theme by far) are in no way worse than Bionicle's weapons. Sure, they're not loaded with ridiculous effects, but neither are they "designed to destroy". They essentially serve as localized EMP devices, firing projectiles that serve to stun or shut down other robots. Nex and Core Hunter's plasma guns are implied to be more devastating, creating a localized explosion... which is EXACTLY THE SAME as what Bionicle's Cordak Blasters or Thornax Launchers do.The villains use more dangerous weapons at times, sure... because they're villains. But even the worst of these (Von Nebula's black hole staff) is still very much the same sort of fantasy violence that Bionicle indulged in. Stop romanticizing Bionicle and demonizing Hero Factory, because the differences you're trying to point out just don't exist.

 

EDIT: My brother Aanchir points out also that a number of Heroes, particularly the 2.0 Heroes, hardly use weapons at all. The 2.0 heroes, in line with their firefighting theme, used claws and multi-tools, with a few using freeze rays and such for the same purpose. The 3.0 heroes had more "weapon-y" features, but primarily claws like Bionicle used all the time. The Breakout wave featured the aforementioned plasma shooters, among other weapons/tools (like Nex's precision laser cutter, which could arguably be used as a weapon but was more useful for cutting through debris). The Brain Attack sets primarily opted for swords and bladed weapons (like Bionicle used since 2001), with a few having missiles and other projectiles. And the newest wave of sets seems to use stun guns and energy chains for the most part. There's no trend here toward more violence; just the same sort of fantasy weaponry Bionicle used for ten long years.


Edited by Lyichir, Nov 13 2013 - 04:33 PM.

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#22 Online Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 04:29 PM

I always did disagree with the Bionicle weapons post-2006. Namely the Cordak Blasters and Midak Skyblasters.

 

Also, this topic is about differences between HF and Slizers, so I'm gonna drop the Bionicle subject. And as far as those two lines are concerned, they are on pretty much the same level.

 

So yeah, Slizer are not as clear winners against HF than Bionicle is.


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#23 Offline Makaru

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Posted Nov 14 2013 - 04:25 PM

So we know that the "blasters" in Hero Factory are pretty much just weaker versions of the Zamors, right?

 

Just checking.


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#24 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Nov 14 2013 - 06:02 PM

So we know that the "blasters" in Hero Factory are pretty much just weaker versions of the Zamors, right? Just checking.

 

Setwise, yes. Storywise, not necessarily; Zamors had a multitude of fantastic effects depending on what they were filled with, while Hero Factory's projectile weapons usually just shoot non-lethal energy blasts (occasionally elemental in nature, like Stormer's multi-function ice weapon or Stringer's sonic boom weapon). They are not in any way "weapons designed to destroy," any more than Bionicle's were. Occasionally, they do have menacing descriptions, like Breez's boomerangs, which "can cut through anything short of neutronium"... but compare Bionicle's sharpest weapons, like Toa Hahli's Protosteel Talons, and Zaktan's Three-bladed Scissor, and you'll see that the only difference is a serving of technobabble mixed in with the ample hyperbole. The main difference is that most of Hero Factory's weapons are unequivocally weapons intended to be used against foes, and are referred to as such... rather than tools that just happen to be used mostly to fire elemental blasts at enemies. Big difference, there.


Edited by Lyichir, Nov 14 2013 - 06:02 PM.

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#25 Offline Illuminatus

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 08:40 PM

The RoboRiders were slightly bland, but the Slizers were always a winner in my book. Perhaps this is just nostalgia speaking, but I believe the Slizer line was a true breakthrough for LEGO that essentially paved the way for BIONICLE (not to mention Christian Faber had already had the basic plot concept for BIONICLE before the Slizers were even introduced). I've never looked into Hero Factory, perhaps the new sets are better, but in all honesty they seem a lot less mature than those in 1999/2000. I, for one, like it when the sets are named proper things without any blatantly deliberate "cool" misspellings. Onyx, Dust and Frost sound way cooler than XPlode and Furno. HF sets seem rather... kiddish? Now the Slizers were obscure and twisted, but that made them awesome, IMO.

 

Also, I've always thought LEGO tried to reintroduce a lot of the concepts from the Slizer series in BIONICLE's 2009 Bara Magna arc.

 

PS: To anyone who's curious (and this might ruin your idea of the Slizers, so be warned), the name was evidently morphed from "slicer" since Faber and his team would refer to the segmented planet as the pizza planet.


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#26 Offline AdaptingChaos

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Posted Nov 21 2013 - 08:51 PM

Let me just start off by saying I own no Slizers or Roboriders and that I own many HF sets (all 1.0 heroes, most 1.0 villians, all 2.0 heroes, some 3.0 heroes, Witch Doctor, all breakout heros, and some breakout villians), so that "nostalgia" thing that many seem to have for picking a certain theme over the other, I dont have. I prefer both themes very much, however to me, I would pick Slizers and Roboriders over Hero Factory any day.

However I do agree that HF has a better storyline (altho I dont like it) because the line has been around for quite some time, so I guess thats expected.

Set design-wise, you cant really compare the two because they are very different from one another, even if they all came from the same root theme, which was Technic. Slizers and Roboriders being the ones closest to Technic would win to me, in my own opinion mainly because I like the Technic-feel of sets. I myself am not a fan of the HF ball and socket system, being that I consider it being too simple and I think it strives too far away from the Technic theme. I enjoy the Technic very much.

Now I know Aanchir, that yes some HF sets do have complexity to them (Witch Doctor, Drop Ship, Furno Bike, Von Nebula, etc.), however that isnt a lot considering that HF has 80 something sets released and almost all of them are simple designed sets to appeal to a younger audience.

The main reason why I like Slizers and Roboriders and prefer them over HF because I feel like I would have a lot more fun building them than building HF. But thats just me :P

Btw, Witch Doctor and the 2010 villians are the only HF sets I have that have not been disassembled and put into a bin.


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#27 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 21 2013 - 09:13 PM

Let me just start off by saying I own no Slizers or Roboriders and that I own many HF sets (all 1.0 heroes, most 1.0 villians, all 2.0 heroes, some 3.0 heroes, Witch Doctor, all breakout heros, and some breakout villians), so that "nostalgia" thing that many seem to have for picking a certain theme over the other, I dont have. I prefer both themes very much, however to me, I would pick Slizers and Roboriders over Hero Factory any day.However I do agree that HF has a better storyline (altho I dont like it) because the line has been around for quite some time, so I guess thats expected.Set design-wise, you cant really compare the two because they are very different from one another, even if they all came from the same root theme, which was Technic. Slizers and Roboriders being the ones closest to Technic would win to me, in my own opinion mainly because I like the Technic-feel of sets. I myself am not a fan of the HF ball and socket system, being that I consider it being too simple and I think it strives too far away from the Technic theme. I enjoy the Technic very much.Now I know Aanchir, that yes some HF sets do have complexity to them (Witch Doctor, Drop Ship, Furno Bike, Von Nebula, etc.), however that isnt a lot considering that HF has 80 something sets released and almost all of them are simple designed sets to appeal to a younger audience.The main reason why I like Slizers and Roboriders and prefer them over HF because I feel like I would have a lot more fun building them than building HF. But thats just me :PBtw, Witch Doctor and the 2010 villians are the only HF sets I have that have not been disassembled and put into a bin.

Haha, I respect that difference of opinion. My feeling regarding the ball-joint system is that its simplicity is a good thing. My Slizer/Roboriders parts are disassembled just like your Hero Factory parts... but even disassembled, they don't do me a lot of good because other than some basic parts like the 3x3 feet and 7x2 wing/ski (which are still incredibly awesome parts), their connection points are terribly awkward. It's hard to find uses for things like a 4x3x6 gearbox, a weird and heavily-textured head, or an arm/leg with bizarre angles and elbow/knee placement in a model with an emphasis on aesthetics and proportions, as many of mine tend to be.This is not to say I haven't used them in MOCs before, of course — I have a Turaga Takanuva MOC by my bed that used a Slizer gearbox as its body specifically because the chunky shape and texture looks like a smaller Mata/Nuva torso. It was incredibly frustrating to build a model around it, though, and the end result isn't anywhere near as shapely as I would have liked. Simplicity brings with it a sense of control. I hate to struggle with a MOC for a long time only to end up with something that still looks like rubbish, and that's what often happens when simply connecting the parts together is absurdly complicated. With Hero Factory, any complexity in your MOCs is because you CHOOSE to push a model in a more complex direction, not because the parts are inherently complicated by design and can't be used WITHOUT a whole lot of complexity.And then there's the Slizer throwing arm, which has no connection points except a single ball joint and which was never useful for anything OTHER than a Slizer throwing arm. At least the later launcher pieces in BIONICLE and Hero Factory would have at least enough connection points to be useful...

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Nov 21 2013 - 09:18 PM.

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#28 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Nov 21 2013 - 10:12 PM

 

And then there's the Slizer throwing arm, which has no connection points except a single ball joint and which was never useful for anything OTHER than a Slizer throwing arm. At least the later launcher pieces in BIONICLE and Hero Factory would have at least enough connection points to be useful...

 Between the Slizer throwing arm and Hero Factory's 1.0 weapon arms, I prefer the Slizer arms, for several reason. 1) They can be used as left or right arms. 2) They have a function. 3) The difference in arm length bothers me less in Slizer models than Hero Factory. I think it's that the weapon arms on Stormer, Stringer, and Bulk 1.0 were designed to look like their non-weapon arms, which made the length difference more noticeable, while the Slizer disk arm and non-disk arms looked nothing alike, so I didn't feel like they had to be the same length. That principle also works with the Toa Mata and Nuva with different arms, as well as the Toa Hordika (I didn't like the Hordika arms because the shorter arm was very difficult to put in natural-looking poses, but the length didn't bother me). On the Piraka, however, the length difference was more of a problem because the upper arms were the same.

 

Also, remember that the fanmade Dark Hunter Eliminator used Slizer disk arms.


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#29 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 06:07 AM

Set design-wise, you cant really compare the two because they are very different from one another, even if they all came from the same root theme, which was Technic. Slizers and Roboriders being the ones closest to Technic would win to me, in my own opinion mainly because I like the Technic-feel of sets. I myself am not a fan of the HF ball and socket system, being that I consider it being too simple and I think it strives too far away from the Technic theme. I enjoy the Technic very much.

Now I know Aanchir, that yes some HF sets do have complexity to them (Witch Doctor, Drop Ship, Furno Bike, Von Nebula, etc.), however that isnt a lot considering that HF has 80 something sets released and almost all of them are simple designed sets to appeal to a younger audience.

The main reason why I like Slizers and Roboriders and prefer them over HF because I feel like I would have a lot more fun building them than building HF. But thats just me :P

Btw, Witch Doctor and the 2010 villians are the only HF sets I have that have not been disassembled and put into a bin.

 

I agree wholeheartedly on the Technic aspect. As you may be aware, the shift away from it began in Bionicle in 2005-6 with the end of gear functions and the rise of more 'organic' parts. Sure, some complex builds remained in the large sets, though even among them the great complexity seen in the Boxor, Ussanui, etc. somewhat gave way to big humanoids (Roodaka, Axonn, etc.) which were effectively expanded versions of the concepts seen in the canister sets.

 

Hero Factory has more or less continued in this vein; it's in tone and story that the real departures from Bionicle have been made.


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#30 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 11:15 AM

And then there's the Slizer throwing arm, which has no connection points except a single ball joint and which was never useful for anything OTHER than a Slizer throwing arm. At least the later launcher pieces in BIONICLE and Hero Factory would have at least enough connection points to be useful...

 Between the Slizer throwing arm and Hero Factory's 1.0 weapon arms, I prefer the Slizer arms, for several reason. 1) They can be used as left or right arms. 2) They have a function. 3) The difference in arm length bothers me less in Slizer models than Hero Factory. I think it's that the weapon arms on Stormer, Stringer, and Bulk 1.0 were designed to look like their non-weapon arms, which made the length difference more noticeable, while the Slizer disk arm and non-disk arms looked nothing alike, so I didn't feel like they had to be the same length. That principle also works with the Toa Mata and Nuva with different arms, as well as the Toa Hordika (I didn't like the Hordika arms because the shorter arm was very difficult to put in natural-looking poses, but the length didn't bother me). On the Piraka, however, the length difference was more of a problem because the upper arms were the same. Also, remember that the fanmade Dark Hunter Eliminator used Slizer disk arms.

Thanks for catching me again on that! I always forget about the 1.0 Hero Factory sets, because, let's face it, they were pretty forgettable (it also helps that I didn't start collecting Hero Factory until the 2011 wave). Aesthetically, they were pretty awesome, but as far as builds are concerned I'm glad we're rid of those kinds of parts and builds. The specialization of the designs makes me think they were not designed for long-term use in the first place, perhaps because design for the new building system was already well underway.Good observation about sets with differing arm lengths. I think the design of the rest of the set has as much of an impact as the design of the arm in some cases. BIONICLE sets tended towards more humanoid proportions a lot of the time, and as such the differing arm lengths are a lot more egregious than on the robotic, alien-looking Slizers. On a model like the Piraka, arms of differing lengths tend to make one look withered, whereas on a model that is clearly not meant to look human or even like a living thing, asymmetry isn't as unsettling.One of the Toa Mata DID bother me a lot when it came to differing arm lengths — Toa Mata Lewa. This is because with the large hand element on his left arm, it was hard to tell whether the bend in his arm was meant to be an elbow or a wrist. Toa Mata Kopaka's arm was flipped compared to Lewa's, which made it look much more well-proportioned — the length of the shoulder joint compensated for the placement of the elbow joint.

I agree wholeheartedly on the Technic aspect. As you may be aware, the shift away from it began in Bionicle in 2005-6 with the end of gear functions and the rise of more 'organic' parts. Sure, some complex builds remained in the large sets, though even among them the great complexity seen in the Boxor, Ussanui, etc. somewhat gave way to big humanoids (Roodaka, Axonn, etc.) which were effectively expanded versions of the concepts seen in the canister sets.Hero Factory has more or less continued in this vein; it's in tone and story that the real departures from Bionicle have been made.

I'd say the shift towards greater simplicity (and thus, away from complex uses of Technic) began even before 2005. BIONICLE was already far simpler than Slizer in a lot of respects, inasmuch as they reduced the inefficiency of the Slizer designs. Instead of two-piece gearboxes that only looked their best when assembled, the Toa Mata had one-piece gearboxes for their torsos. Instead of slow and awkward worm-gear functions, the Toa Mata introduced fluid new double-crown-gear functions. The new leg and arm elements were also optimized for more human proportions — the knees/elbows were much more centered on the limb. Also, very few parts of BIONICLE sets used half-module intervals (which were common in Slizer/Throwbots, Roboriders, and Competition/Cyber Slam sets) — instead, BIONICLE opted for full-module intervals and lots of odd-numbered widths.All these changes made the designs much more intuitive than Slizer designs, but distanced them further from the complexity of other Technic sets. I like to think of this shift as an overall improvement, even though from time to time it meant more homogenous designs.

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#31 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 02:28 PM

 

One of the Toa Mata DID bother me a lot when it came to differing arm lengths — Toa Mata Lewa. This is because with the large hand element on his left arm, it was hard to tell whether the bend in his arm was meant to be an elbow or a wrist. Toa Mata Kopaka's arm was flipped compared to Lewa's, which made it look much more well-proportioned — the length of the shoulder joint compensated for the placement of the elbow joint.

 If I recall, it's Kopaka's shield arm in the same configuration as Lewa's hand arm?


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#32 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 04:40 PM

One of the Toa Mata DID bother me a lot when it came to differing arm lengths — Toa Mata Lewa. This is because with the large hand element on his left arm, it was hard to tell whether the bend in his arm was meant to be an elbow or a wrist. Toa Mata Kopaka's arm was flipped compared to Lewa's, which made it look much more well-proportioned — the length of the shoulder joint compensated for the placement of the elbow joint.

 If I recall, it's Kopaka's shield arm in the same configuration as Lewa's hand arm?

Huh, you're right. I wonder how long my Kopaka has been built wrong. :lookaround:Yeah, that look definitely bothers me. Honestly even the gangly arm proportions of so many post-2006 sets are better than a model with an upper arm three or four times as long as the barely-there forearm.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Nov 22 2013 - 04:41 PM.

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#33 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 05:16 PM

 

 

One of the Toa Mata DID bother me a lot when it came to differing arm lengths — Toa Mata Lewa. This is because with the large hand element on his left arm, it was hard to tell whether the bend in his arm was meant to be an elbow or a wrist. Toa Mata Kopaka's arm was flipped compared to Lewa's, which made it look much more well-proportioned — the length of the shoulder joint compensated for the placement of the elbow joint.

 If I recall, it's Kopaka's shield arm in the same configuration as Lewa's hand arm?

 

Huh, you're right. I wonder how long my Kopaka has been built wrong. :lookaround:Yeah, that look definitely bothers me. Honestly even the gangly arm proportions of so many post-2006 sets are better than a model with an upper arm three or four times as long as the barely-there forearm.

 

Yeah, that L-shaped piece is pretty awkward sometimes. I think the Rahkshi pulled it off well, just because their natural hunch and overly-long legs made it clear they weren't supposed to have human proportions. They were antagonists, after all. I wish all the Visorak used Bohrok arms instead of just Suukorak and Oohnorak, though. The L-arms got in the way of the closing jaws function.


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#34 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 11:11 AM

Slizer and Roboriders are separate themes. The first wave of Hero Factory was better than Slizers and Roboriders as it was similar to BIONICLE. Anything after that is an abomination which doesn't have any real building value, so there Roboriders and Slizers win.


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#35 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 11:39 AM

Slizer and Roboriders are separate themes. The first wave of Hero Factory was better than Slizers and Roboriders as it was similar to BIONICLE. Anything after that is an abomination which doesn't have any real building value, so there Roboriders and Slizers win.

Are you serious? The first wave of Hero Factory was an army of clone sets with parts that were more specialized and less versatile than the parts of the Bionicle Stars. It was only after the new building system was introduced that Hero Factory started to come into its own, and I'd say that the new CCBS (Character and Creature Building System) has more building value than Roboriders, Slizers, or even Bionicle itself. Have you ever even used the new building system? Because I can't comprehend how anyone who had could see it as having less building value than Hero Factory 1.0.


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#36 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 11:49 AM

 

Slizer and Roboriders are separate themes. The first wave of Hero Factory was better than Slizers and Roboriders as it was similar to BIONICLE. Anything after that is an abomination which doesn't have any real building value, so there Roboriders and Slizers win.

Are you serious? The first wave of Hero Factory was an army of clone sets with parts that were more specialized and less versatile than the parts of the Bionicle Stars. It was only after the new building system was introduced that Hero Factory started to come into its own, and I'd say that the new CCBS (Character and Creature Building System) has more building value than Roboriders, Slizers, or even Bionicle itself. Have you ever even used the new building system? Because I can't comprehend how anyone who had could see it as having less building value than Hero Factory 1.0.

 

 

I am.

 

Slizers and Roboriders were fairly limited themes. They were interesting, but strange and neither was amazing. The Heroes for the first wave of Hero Factory were no good, but the villains were okay. I didn't look for building much in BIONICLE outside of titans as anything smaller was generally quite simple. Von Nebula and Rotor at least had some building. After that, Hero Factory is just a modular building system. It's interesting to a point, and the parts do have some use when mixed with actual TECHNIC bricks, but alone they're next to useless - just look at the titans.


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#37 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 01:15 PM

Slizer and Roboriders are separate themes. The first wave of Hero Factory was better than Slizers and Roboriders as it was similar to BIONICLE. Anything after that is an abomination which doesn't have any real building value, so there Roboriders and Slizers win.

Are you serious? The first wave of Hero Factory was an army of clone sets with parts that were more specialized and less versatile than the parts of the Bionicle Stars. It was only after the new building system was introduced that Hero Factory started to come into its own, and I'd say that the new CCBS (Character and Creature Building System) has more building value than Roboriders, Slizers, or even Bionicle itself. Have you ever even used the new building system? Because I can't comprehend how anyone who had could see it as having less building value than Hero Factory 1.0.

 I am. Slizers and Roboriders were fairly limited themes. They were interesting, but strange and neither was amazing. The Heroes for the first wave of Hero Factory were no good, but the villains were okay. I didn't look for building much in BIONICLE outside of titans as anything smaller was generally quite simple. Von Nebula and Rotor at least had some building. After that, Hero Factory is just a modular building system. It's interesting to a point, and the parts do have some use when mixed with actual TECHNIC bricks, but alone they're next to useless - just look at the titans.

False. Case in point: this MOC that was displayed at LEGO World in Copenhagen earlier this year. It uses SOME Technic, but not much more as a percentage of the build than you usually see in a small or medium Hero Factory set. I built it on LDD if you want to see how it goes together. It's quite brilliant, and was designed by an actual BIONICLE and Hero Factory designer, Christoffer Raundahl. I mentioned him earlier in this topic as well — he's been designing constraction sets since the Slizers, including the original Tahu, the original Kopaka, and the Bahrag. He's also one of the three inventors of the Hero Factory character and creature building system, so it's no surprise he knows how to use it to great effect.I have also built my own share of Hero Factory MOCs using Technic sparingly. One of my largest is Koboldon, which only uses a lot of Technic for the right forearm. Most of the rest, including the giant claw, the entire torso, and the custom feet, is constraction-based.The larger Hero Factory sets DO tend to be a lot smaller and simpler than that first MOC I linked because they need to meet certain price points (Christoffer Raundahl's impressive creation would probably cost at least $50, higher than any Hero Factory set has ever been priced). But the Hero Factory building system is far from useless if you know what you're doing with it. It's certainly not an "abomination" and has loads of building value at any scale.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Dec 01 2013 - 01:18 PM.

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#38 Offline Gengar

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 01:52 PM

HF, because Slizers and Roboriders clearly failed in a way. The sets are also better, with a whole bunch of unique pieces, and it has a story.


Edited by Derpystar7, Dec 01 2013 - 01:52 PM.

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#39 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 01:55 PM

 

 

 

Slizer and Roboriders are separate themes. The first wave of Hero Factory was better than Slizers and Roboriders as it was similar to BIONICLE. Anything after that is an abomination which doesn't have any real building value, so there Roboriders and Slizers win.

Are you serious? The first wave of Hero Factory was an army of clone sets with parts that were more specialized and less versatile than the parts of the Bionicle Stars. It was only after the new building system was introduced that Hero Factory started to come into its own, and I'd say that the new CCBS (Character and Creature Building System) has more building value than Roboriders, Slizers, or even Bionicle itself. Have you ever even used the new building system? Because I can't comprehend how anyone who had could see it as having less building value than Hero Factory 1.0.

 

 I am. Slizers and Roboriders were fairly limited themes. They were interesting, but strange and neither was amazing. The Heroes for the first wave of Hero Factory were no good, but the villains were okay. I didn't look for building much in BIONICLE outside of titans as anything smaller was generally quite simple. Von Nebula and Rotor at least had some building. After that, Hero Factory is just a modular building system. It's interesting to a point, and the parts do have some use when mixed with actual TECHNIC bricks, but alone they're next to useless - just look at the titans.

 

False. Case in point: this MOC that was displayed at LEGO World in Copenhagen earlier this year. It uses SOME Technic, but not much more as a percentage of the build than you usually see in a small or medium Hero Factory set. I built it on LDD if you want to see how it goes together. It's quite brilliant, and was designed by an actual BIONICLE and Hero Factory designer, Christoffer Raundahl. I mentioned him earlier in this topic as well — he's been designing constraction sets since the Slizers, including the original Tahu, the original Kopaka, and the Bahrag. He's also one of the three inventors of the Hero Factory character and creature building system, so it's no surprise he knows how to use it to great effect.I have also built my own share of Hero Factory MOCs using Technic sparingly. One of my largest is Koboldon, which only uses a lot of Technic for the right forearm. Most of the rest, including the giant claw, the entire torso, and the custom feet, is constraction-based.The larger Hero Factory sets DO tend to be a lot smaller and simpler than that first MOC I linked because they need to meet certain price points (Christoffer Raundahl's impressive creation would probably cost at least $50, higher than any Hero Factory set has ever been priced). But the Hero Factory building system is far from useless if you know what you're doing with it. It's certainly not an "abomination" and has loads of building value at any scale.

 

I find that MOCs with more of a focus on TECHNIC building augmented Hero Factory can be really cool, but I don't see a lot of good Hero Factory MOCs. There are some exceptions, of course, but that doesn't appear to be the rule. I'll admit that they're not abominations - I suppose that was over the top. I still very much dislike them and prefer Slizer/Throwbots and Roboriders to them.


Edited by BobaFett2, Dec 01 2013 - 01:59 PM.

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#40 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 03:26 PM

Slizer and Roboriders are separate themes. The first wave of Hero Factory was better than Slizers and Roboriders as it was similar to BIONICLE. Anything after that is an abomination which doesn't have any real building value, so there Roboriders and Slizers win.

Are you serious? The first wave of Hero Factory was an army of clone sets with parts that were more specialized and less versatile than the parts of the Bionicle Stars. It was only after the new building system was introduced that Hero Factory started to come into its own, and I'd say that the new CCBS (Character and Creature Building System) has more building value than Roboriders, Slizers, or even Bionicle itself. Have you ever even used the new building system? Because I can't comprehend how anyone who had could see it as having less building value than Hero Factory 1.0.

 I am. Slizers and Roboriders were fairly limited themes. They were interesting, but strange and neither was amazing. The Heroes for the first wave of Hero Factory were no good, but the villains were okay. I didn't look for building much in BIONICLE outside of titans as anything smaller was generally quite simple. Von Nebula and Rotor at least had some building. After that, Hero Factory is just a modular building system. It's interesting to a point, and the parts do have some use when mixed with actual TECHNIC bricks, but alone they're next to useless - just look at the titans.

False. Case in point: this MOC that was displayed at LEGO World in Copenhagen earlier this year. It uses SOME Technic, but not much more as a percentage of the build than you usually see in a small or medium Hero Factory set. I built it on LDD if you want to see how it goes together. It's quite brilliant, and was designed by an actual BIONICLE and Hero Factory designer, Christoffer Raundahl. I mentioned him earlier in this topic as well — he's been designing constraction sets since the Slizers, including the original Tahu, the original Kopaka, and the Bahrag. He's also one of the three inventors of the Hero Factory character and creature building system, so it's no surprise he knows how to use it to great effect.I have also built my own share of Hero Factory MOCs using Technic sparingly. One of my largest is Koboldon, which only uses a lot of Technic for the right forearm. Most of the rest, including the giant claw, the entire torso, and the custom feet, is constraction-based.The larger Hero Factory sets DO tend to be a lot smaller and simpler than that first MOC I linked because they need to meet certain price points (Christoffer Raundahl's impressive creation would probably cost at least $50, higher than any Hero Factory set has ever been priced). But the Hero Factory building system is far from useless if you know what you're doing with it. It's certainly not an "abomination" and has loads of building value at any scale.

I find that MOCs with more of a focus on TECHNIC building augmented Hero Factory can be really cool, but I don't see a lot of good Hero Factory MOCs. There are some exceptions, of course, but that doesn't appear to be the rule. I'll admit that they're not abominations - I suppose that was over the top. I still very much dislike them and prefer Slizer/Throwbots and Roboriders to them.

That's completely respectable. Believe me, I prefer people who appreciate the differences between Hero Factory, BIONICLE, Slizers, etc. to AFOLs who think they're all the same thing with different names, no matter which theme they end up preferring. Hero Factory is better than its predecessors in some ways and worse in others, and which you like better ends up depending on which features of the sets or parts are most important to you on a personal level. Same with any theme, really.

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