Evolutions in the New Story?

[Toa Alvarno]

Do you guys think there will be Toa evolutions in the new reboot of Bionicle? How did you guys feel when you bought an entire team of Toa Mata in 2001, only for them to re-release the same characters a year later and then again in 2008? The same thing with the Inika and Mahri? Did it bother you in terms of money?

[bioniclepluslotr]

It bothered me releasing them back to back, like Inika and Mahri and Mata to Nuva, and Metru to Hordika. I'm not a fan of buying the same character again and again. The Nuva to 2008 was ok cause it was like 5 years.

[Cambion]

i have no problem with buying multiple iterations of the same character as long as i'm getting different pieces in each set, which is unfortunately something that Hero Factory didn't really have going for it. i wouldn't be at all surprised if there were Toa upgrades in the new story, but i'm on the fence about that as far as the sets go.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Arc

[bioniclepluslotr]

It's a nightmare for people who like to display things canonically.

[Cambion]

It's a nightmare for people who like to display things canonically.

i'm not sure what you mean. could you elaborate?

[Regitnui]

I see no problem with it, but this is a premature discussion, given that we haven't even seen the second half of 2015 yet...

[bioniclepluslotr]

 

 

It's a nightmare for people who like to display things canonically.

i'm not sure what you mean. could you elaborate?

Like imagine you have your 01 Mata set up fighting Bohrok, and then they released the Nuva. Now what do you do with the Mata sets on display? But if they had a new Toa team introduced, you can have them side by side in the same display.

And btw, to counter the inevitable too-many-Toa argument, what if they made good guy sets that weren't Toa?

[Cambion]

I see no problem with it, but this is a premature discussion, given that we haven't even seen the second half of 2015 yet...

not really. you seem to be implying that Lego could release upgrades of the current Toa in the second half of the year, which is kind of ridiculous.

 

 

 

It's a nightmare for people who like to display things canonically.

i'm not sure what you mean. could you elaborate?

Like imagine you have your 01 Mata set up fighting Bohrok, and then they released the Nuva. Now what do you do with the Mata sets on display? But if they had a new Toa team introduced, you can have them side by side in the same display.

 

that. doesn't really make sense. i don't see anything wrong with it..you could have both iterations of the team in....separate displays? isn't that the easy solution? i don't know, i don't really display my sets; they get scrapped right away.

[Vartemp]

I must admit, having different iterations of the same character every few years did become old, but it was most likely because LEGO or any of the stores that sell them almost never sell sets that came out more than two years before. I was in to displaying things canonically, so that became a nightmare.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Vartemp

[bioniclepluslotr]

 

I see no problem with it, but this is a premature discussion, given that we haven't even seen the second half of 2015 yet...

not really. you seem to be implying that Lego could release upgrades of the current Toa in the second half of the year, which is kind of ridiculous.

 

 

 

It's a nightmare for people who like to display things canonically.

i'm not sure what you mean. could you elaborate?

Like imagine you have your 01 Mata set up fighting Bohrok, and then they released the Nuva. Now what do you do with the Mata sets on display? But if they had a new Toa team introduced, you can have them side by side in the same display.

 

that. doesn't really make sense. i don't see anything wrong with it..you could have both iterations of the team in....separate displays? isn't that the easy solution? i don't know, i don't really display my sets; they get scrapped right away.

 

I mean, if you guys are into MoCs and take apart sets right away, then you should have no problem with new characters. Evolutions get annoying for displayers.

[bonesiii]

The alternative is the same characters don't get to have main focus in the next year. Make sure all of you arguing against them are factoring that.

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

What? TAHU is evolving? (Doo-doo doo-doo! Duh-duh duh duh duh duh duuuuh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhhhhh pssw! Doo-doo doo dootl doodoo doo!) Congratulations! Your TAHU has evolved into OMEGA TAHU!

[Rider Of Spiders]

What? TAHU is evolving? (Doo-doo doo-doo! Duh-duh duh duh duh duh duuuuh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhhhhh pssw! Doo-doo doo dootl doodoo doo!) Congratulations! Your TAHU has evolved into OMEGA TAHU!

*spams B*

[Lyichir]

The alternative is the same characters don't get to have main focus in the next year. Make sure all of you arguing against them are factoring that.

Yes, but I would consider that a less appealing option. I would much rather buy the same team year after year than have the story alternate between multiple teams. Story-wise, showing character progression for several years is much preferable to abandoning characters which you've just grown to love, even if the characters need a new form just so that the story can keep its focus on them.

[Cambion]

 

The alternative is the same characters don't get to have main focus in the next year. Make sure all of you arguing against them are factoring that.

Yes, but I would consider that a less appealing option. I would much rather buy the same team year after year than have the story alternate between multiple teams. Story-wise, showing character progression for several years is much preferable to abandoning characters which you've just grown to love, even if the characters need a new form just so that the story can keep its focus on them.

 

oh yeah, excellent point. if there's one thing the original Bionicle story lacked, it was character development, and if having more iterations of the same team this time around would mean more character development i'm All For That

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

I'm sure that we will see new forms of the Toa in coming years. It'd be nice to see different Toa teams ala the Metru, but focusing on one or two Toa teams would be great.

 

Maybe we will see a Toa team with 6 new elements, seeing as the masks of these Toa match their elemental powers? Who knows? That is the beauty of the reboot

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I didn't mind when the Toa Mata became Nuva, Metru became Hordika, and Inika became Mahri. As long as the sets are different from each other with each change, I have no problem with the Toa taking on different forms. Especially if it keeps the Toa in the story for another year.

[Regitnui]

 

 

I see no problem with it, but this is a premature discussion, given that we haven't even seen the second half of 2015 yet...

not really. you seem to be implying that Lego could release upgrades of the current Toa in the second half of the year, which is kind of ridiculous.

It would be, considering storylines last a year. These Toa are unlikely to be 'upgraded' this year, considering the Mata went for two years in their Mata forms. But this is still premature, because we don't know if they'll be upgraded at all. Its preemptive complaining, this thread.

[Aanchir]

In general, I prefer buying a character I care about than a character I've never heard of. The old BIONICLE at least had that going for it — every main Toa team released in sets was made up of characters introduced in 2001. But even so, it was really irritating for characters like the Toa Nuva to get shunted to the sidelines just because they were no longer the subjects of the current sets. I think the decision in themes like Hero Factory and Ninjago to keep the main protagonists fairly consistent has worked to both themes' benefit.

[believe victims]

If they do do this, I hope they won't use the term "evolution" at any point, considering it would continue Bionicle's tradition of ridiculously manhandling the term every time they use it, with both the Makuta and the Av-Matoran.

[Hasreadit]

I'm fine with new designs of the same character but I really liked the only spending two or three years on one Toa Team so we got new designs of different heros as well.

[Banana Gunz]

Multiple iterations of the same character is fine, as long as they aren't released too close together and the new ones are significantly differently.

 

One idea I had though was "upgrade packs", where they release a bunch of cool add on/replacement parts to update your toa in between remakes. Not sure how practical it is (should be pretty practical, except that you'd have to keep the old sets in stock for a fair amount of time), but it definitely sounds cool.

[Toa Alvarno]

An alternative idea I had was if they were to release alternate versions of the characters to keep them in stock but not as upgrades or replacements to the previous sets. Instead, they can be other outfits or looks the characters can switch around from time to time. That way, it doesn't make the previous sets go obsolete.

[Prime Axiom]

I want a dragon themed Tahu set, so....

[Lyichir]

An alternative idea I had was if they were to release alternate versions of the characters to keep them in stock but not as upgrades or replacements to the previous sets. Instead, they can be other outfits or looks the characters can switch around from time to time. That way, it doesn't make the previous sets go obsolete.

I agree that that would add the most longevity to a given team. In fact, it's a lot like what Ninjago does with its characters. Each year the ninja get new costumes, which don't necessarily give them new powers or abilities but do serve as an indicator of which version of a character is which. Bionicle could probably get away with this as well so long as it doesn't start with upgrades that are as overpowered and (mostly) irreversible as the Nuva transformation. Instead the Toa could go through less dramatic upgrades that nonetheless serve to change their overall look significantly each time.

[Quisoves Potoo]

The alternative is the same characters don't get to have main focus in the next year. Make sure all of you arguing against them are factoring that.

Which is not to say that they would be left out of the main story. LEGO seems to have no objection with characters not currently available in sets have major story roles, as long as the characters portrayed in the sets also do. To my understanding, Ninjago does this frequently, what with Llyod's mother and the Overlord (yes, he has a set now, but he had to wait a year-and-a-half.)

[northmarch]

If the Okoto saga is to run for three years as suspected I believe they will need to resease at least one upgraded version to keep from going too long without any major hero sets. This is also encouraging news for those hoping to see more classic style elements integrated into the system next year. As long as there is a decent explanation and use of transformation in story I'm all for it!

 

One idea I had though was "upgrade packs", where they release a bunch of cool add on/replacement parts to update your toa in between remakes. Not sure how practical it is (should be pretty practical, except that you'd have to keep the old sets in stock for a fair amount of time), but it definitely sounds cool.

I had a similar idea a while ago too.

The upgrade packs on their own could be built into a sort of shrine or a smaller figure.

[believe victims]

 

The alternative is the same characters don't get to have main focus in the next year. Make sure all of you arguing against them are factoring that.

Which is not to say that they would be left out of the main story. LEGO seems to have no objection with characters not currently available in sets have major story roles, as long as the characters portrayed in the sets also do. To my understanding, Ninjago does this frequently, what with Llyod's mother and the Overlord (yes, he has a set now, but he had to wait a year-and-a-half.)

 

 

Ninjago has a TV series. Bionicle only has 90 second web shorts to handle story in.

 

And the majorest of major characters, the Ninja, still appear in sets every year. They also remain the main protagonists, because spending a large amount of time focusing on characters you can't buy in sets is a waste of time when you're trying to sell toys. This problem becomes even more pronounced in constraction, where a single set almost always only represents a single character, so you have less freedom to introduce new protagonists without removing the old ones.

 

At most, I can see them introducing one new Toa, and perhaps trying to split them across the years like HF did. I certainly don't see them introducing a whole new Toa team, unless they decide to dump the Mata altogether as main protagonists, because otherwise, they would be failing their job of marketing the toys currently available.

[bioniclepluslotr]

New characters don't need to be Toa! Why does everyone assume that?

[Aanchir]

New characters don't need to be Toa! Why does everyone assume that?

It doesn't entirely matter if they're Toa or not. Either way, you run into some of the same issues: returning protagonists run the risk of feeling redundant, while new protagonists run the risk of pulling the spotlight away from the established protagonists and interrupting their character development.

 

Personally, I think getting new versions of the Toa next year would be ideal. It might not be as easy as the upgrade from Toa Mata to Toa Nuva, since a lot of the things that made the Toa Nuva so special like metallic, dual-function weapons are already present in some form on these Toa, but I definitely think the LEGO Group could find some way to surprise me.

[Regitnui]

Since this first arc has echoes of the Bohrok, I imagine the 'seventh Toa' story would be the best story to 'update' into Gen2 without risking the tone change that '04 onwards brought.

[believe victims]

New characters don't need to be Toa! Why does everyone assume that?

 

Well, then we have no Toa as main protagonists, which takes us even further from the roots of Bionicle.

[fishers64]

I'm all good for transforming the Mata a few times. Personally I'd actually like to see them put a little character development into these guys, take some time to develop their story and get to know them a little better.  In mind there's really no way to "ruin" the Mata because they were bland to begin with - very few changes would make them worse than 2001. At worst, Bionicle 2015 is another lame Mata protrayal thrown on a stack of lame Mata protrayals, and there's a lot of improvements that can be made. 

 

Also, with no Matoran...there's not much potential for other Toa to show up. I think we will see transforms. 

 

I also don't want the Metru to come back, because 2004-05 Metru Nui in my mind is only one that really works. Any changes to that is going to annoy me really bad.

[Quisoves Potoo]

Ninjago has a TV series. Bionicle only has 90 second web shorts to handle story in.

It will also have books. Granted, we don't know the particulars concerning them, but Bonesii's argument hinges on the characters having enough depth that their absence would be felt. If the story, with all its requisite action, consists of only 90 second shorts and quick-reads, then I doubt that will be the case.

 

And the majorest of major characters, the Ninja, still appear in sets every year. They also remain the main protagonists, because spending a large amount of time focusing on characters you can't buy in sets is a waste of time when you're trying to sell toys. This problem becomes even more pronounced in constraction, where a single set almost always only represents a single character, so you have less freedom to introduce new protagonists without removing the old ones.

 

At most, I can see them introducing one new Toa, and perhaps trying to split them across the years like HF did. I certainly don't see them introducing a whole new Toa team, unless they decide to dump the Mata altogether as main protagonists, because otherwise, they would be failing their job of marketing the toys currently available.

 

I agree. What I meant to say was that the main focus could shift to a new team of heroes without the story ignoring the Omega Mata from that point on. They'd no longer be in the spotlight, but they could still have important supporting roles, in the same way that Ninjago's second season featured Misako and Dr. Julien in important roles and the Overlord as the main villain.

[Aanchir]

 

Ninjago has a TV series. Bionicle only has 90 second web shorts to handle story in.

It will also have books. Granted, we don't know the particulars concerning them, but Bonesii's argument hinges on the characters having enough depth that their absence would be felt. If the story, with all its requisite action, consists of only 90 second shorts and quick-reads, then I doubt that will be the case.

 

This argument feels completely backwards to me. The less character development we get each year, the more we need the characters to stick around for multiple years if we ever want a reason to care about them. That's part of the reason I always thought it was ridiculous for people to want a completely new set of heroes in LEGO Hero Factory. If it takes a long time to develop a connection to the characters, why would you ever want to go back to square one with a team of characters who are even harder to care about than the ones you've just spent a year or longer establishing?

 

Besides that, a story told in animated shorts can still have good characterization. What matters there is the QUALITY of the writing, not the quantity.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Aanchir

[Quisoves Potoo]

This argument feels completely backwards to me. The less character development we get each year, the more we need the characters to stick around for multiple years if we ever want a reason to care about them. That's part of the reason I always thought it was ridiculous for people to want a completely new set of heroes in LEGO Hero Factory. If it takes a long time to develop a connection to the characters, why would you ever want to go back to square one with a team of characters who are even harder to care about than the ones you've just spent a year or longer establishing?

 

That assumes that they can develop. If they are simply penny-dreadful characters year after year, that's likely not going to be the case.

 

 

Besides that, a story told in animated shorts can still have good characterization. What matters there is the QUALITY of the writing, not the quantity.

Quite true, which is why I stressed the "requisite action" of BIONICLE. We're not taking about a character-driven story, we're talking about a grand adventure, with all the trappings thereof. In ninety seconds, there is going to be little time for what the characters feel or think. The story concerns the defeat of the Skull Spiders, the Masks of Power, etc. Anything else will only come once those elements have  been assured their place.

[Aanchir]

That assumes that they can develop. If they are simply penny-dreadful characters year after year, that's likely not going to be the case.

But if the story is already spread so thin that there's no room for meaningful character development, bringing in new characters to compete for screen time would make things worse, not better.

[Quisoves Potoo]

But if the story is already spread so thin that there's no room for meaningful character development, bringing in new characters to compete for screen time would make things worse, not better.

If the story is already spread that thin, the old characters will vanish the moment the new characters appear. There would be no competition.

[believe victims]

 

But if the story is already spread so thin that there's no room for meaningful character development, bringing in new characters to compete for screen time would make things worse, not better.

If the story is already spread that thin, the old characters will vanish the moment the new characters appear. There would be no competition.

 

 

And that won't confuse 8-year-olds at all

[Quisoves Potoo]

And that won't confuse 8-year-olds at all

If the old heroes just vanish, then of course there will be confusion. Perhaps I should have phrased that better. 

As long as a reason is given, there should be little confusion. They can be captured, ala the Toa Nuva, and their quest can be taken up by the new heroes. All that would require is a set-up animation in which the new adversaries defeat the old heroes and carry them off, and in response, the Mask of Creation (or whatever MacGuffin is appropriate for the situation) creates six new heroes. That is essentially what happened in 2006, albeit in a more drawn out fashion.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat