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Elemental Flight -- Quotes & Stuff


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#1 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 12:30 PM

So this question comes up a lot, and I've found a variety of correct and uncorrect answers, confusing me enough to want to go back and carefully search for definitive Greg quotes. Here's the results of my research. Toa that can definitely fly are:

 

[color=#008080;]Magnetism[/color]

[color=#008080;]Gravity[/color]

[color=#008080;]Fire (if they have a jetpack-shaped Toa Tool to channel the flames down)[/color]

[color=#008080;]Air (but it's highly inefficient unless they have glider-shaped Tools or the like)[/color]

 

Another element that can [color=#008000;]probably fly is Plasma [/color](same means as Fire, but maybe less subtle control).

 

One element that has [color=#ff8c00;]technically flown but only with the aid of the Nui Stone is Water[/color] (may enable limited hovering ability normally, but probably only a fall-slowing ability due to limits on how much of their element Toa can normally make under control at one time).

 

Despite common misconception, [color=#ff0000;]Toa of Iron can NOT fly[/color].

 

Other Toa may be able to effectively slow a fall, and still others may be able to slightly slow a fall, etc.; see the end of this post for more theorizing on that.

 

6) Can a Toa of Magnetism use his control over magnetism on his armour and make himself fly?6a) What about a Toa of Iron?

 

6) Yes6a) No

Source.

 

1. If a Toa of Gravity was experienced enough with his element, could he manipulate/bend the gravity around him to achieve flight? Posted Image The toa I'm writting about is able to and I wanted to see if that was a canon-worthy ability.

1) Yes

Source

 

3. In B2, why does Vakama ask Nuju to use his telekinesis to lift him up to Makuta, when he could just use his Disk Launcher as a jetpack to fly up?

3) Maybe he didn't want to waste his elemental energy powering the jet pack right before such a big battle

Source. I include this because the question has come up before of whether the jetpack is a Tool channeling his normal element (this confirms it) or a separate power that makes its own fire (this denies that). It also confirms that he can fly with the jetpack, though that is obvious since it was shown in-story.

 

4.)Can toa tools be used by other toas to chanel their element and or would it still if a toa of fire used Vakama'sjetpack?

4) Yes, Toa can use each other's tools, but Vakama's jetpack would not work for another Toa in the same way.

Source. This one may be irrelevant depending on what he means by "the same way" (if just means it wouldn't make fire, then this is irrelevant, but it could mean that Toa of Water or Air couldn't effectively hover as well as Vakama).

 

On a more trivial note yall might find helpful, while I'm at it, Vakama's Huna would make jetpack flames invisible too. Source.

 

[After a question about Lhikan's tool]3. Would he actually go on water, or would he have some mode of flying like Vakama has his jetpack?

3) Lhikan's tool functions sort of like the Silver Surfer's board

Source. This confirms that Lhikan's Tool had its own Kadin-like Flight power; his Fire element was not involved in that Flight.

 

2.)Can a toa of air fly/glide without a mask of levitation/glider just useing their elemental powers?

2) Well, Matau flew in 2004-2005 without a Mask of Levitation, but if you don't have some kind of glider wings or tools to help you maneuver, you are basically just going to be buffeted by winds, which isn't a very efficient way to fly.

Source. (I think he means creating a strong wind pointing up, which would logically be difficult to balance on top of without some kind of windcatch.)

 

 

I could not find direct information on whether or not a Toa of Psionics could fly, but they almost certainly cannot, because the only power Greg gave them that would have a chance is telekinesis, and it's confirmed that the Mask of Telekinesis cannot be used for flight:

 

...telekinesis -- Nuju doesn't use his mask to lift himself, he uses it to lift other objects.

 

Source.

 

 

Toa of Water can fly, but the only confirmed instance is Tuyet's overpowered fountain method which might only be possible due to the Nui Stone, as it was used as the final example of her using that power the most in Many Deaths. Here's the example:

 

Before the startled eyes of the Toa of Fire, Tuyet began to rise on a column of water. Higher and higher she climbed, until it seemed like she would be able to touch the stars themselves.

 

I would presume that normal Toa of Water would just be able to slow a fall with a downward-directed jet of water, and more effectively if they had something like Vakama's jetpack to channel it through properly.

 

 

I could not find confirmation that Toa of Plasma can fly. They make more heat than Toa of Fire, so logically they can using the jetpack method as well, and probably faster, though the "superpowered" nature of this heat may actually make them only able to rocket at high speeds, without any slow and careful mode.

 

 

For all other Toa, flight should be essentially impossible, although it may be possible for some to more effectively slow a fall than others. I would expect these to include Light (the heat side effect of it), Sonics (which has some limited pushing power), Earth (limited liquid-like behavior projected downward with enough force to mimic a jet) and Plants (by making a big leafy glider :P). Possibly Toa of Lightning may be able to direct electricity in a spiral or ring shape to make a limited electromagnetic field, though as far as I can tell nobody ever asked Greg about this.

 

Also, other Toa could project even solid elements downward at as high a speed as they can, to slightly slow a fall, but there would usually be more effective ways to use solid elements to save yourself from a fall, such as making a curving ramp and a surfboard to slide down it with. These are mainly Stone, Iron, and Ice, though the same could help a Toa of Earth to some extent, and Plants.

 

 

Also note, a Nova Blast would provide enough use of any element with enough force to most likely enable flight, technically, but it could NOT be controlled to aim only downward to propel them up like a rocket. Instead, the element goes out in all directions, and with most elements (other than Water, maybe some others like Air), the Toa is killed in the process too. Only normal use of elements would be controlled enough to aim downward, and with most of these other elements the amount limit used at once would not be enough to provide lift.

 

And no, Toa cannot make platforms of their element, stand on them, and lift the platforms. It's often speculated erroneously that for example Pohatu could make a surfboard out of Stone, and lift that while standing on it, since it's confirmed that Toa of Stone can enable Stone to fly telekinetically (as all Toa of material elements can for their respective element). The problem with this is essentially that Pohatu standing on the rock makes the target and the source of the telekinetic power connected in a loop, like the old cartoon cliche of a character putting their feet on a door and yanking on the doorknob in vain to try to open it -- it can never work, because their feet are pushing the same object their hands are pulling, with the same force, so they cancel out.

 

I did try to find a quote to confirm that this is impossible, and could not. It seems not to be something anybody thought to ask until the new forum, but the fact that it's never given as a power for elements, and even Toa of Iron who have metal in themselves cannot lift themselves, while flight is given as a special ability for Gravity and Magnetism, clearly debunks the idea.

 

 

EDIT: That is now in serious doubt, as a quote has been found from one of the books that seems to depict Pohatu lifting himself by telekinetically lifted rock. See conversation beginning here, with the quote here. A suggested alternate interpretation of the physics is that Toa can convert some of their elemental energy into kinetic energy to achieve telekinesis, but the coding of powers like that of Iron Toa includes some limits that have nothing to do with physics limitations, such as for safety or to avoid being overpowered.

 

 

Here's another relevant quote that Torchflare1234 found:

 

19) Is a Toa of Lightning capable of flight?

19) No


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 21 2012 - 02:28 AM.

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#2 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 12:35 PM

Good you found this due the recent discussions, a toa of fire can fly :)

 

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Edited by Dual Matrix, Dec 09 2012 - 12:36 PM.

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#3 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:03 PM

[color=rgb(0,128,128);]Fire (if they have a jetpack-shaped Toa Tool to channel the flames down)[/color]

I would also like to add to this that Vakama "flew" with thermal updrafts at one point. It was more like hovering, though.

[color=rgb(0,128,128);]Air (but it's highly inefficient unless they have glider-shaped Tools or the like)[/color]

I would also say that a clever Toa of Air could fly fairly effectively without glider tools, as positioning their body in different ways could make it easier for them to wind-propel themselves in one direction without being buffeted as much in others. 

Another element that can [color=rgb(0,128,0);]probably fly is Plasma [/color](same means as Fire, but maybe less subtle control).

On top of this, Plasma could theoretically create an ion drive, likely projected from their feet or a tool. It'd be similar to Fire in function, though, so it might not be with mentioning. 

One element that has [color=rgb(255,140,0);]technically flown but only with the aid of the Nui Stone is Water[/color] (may enable limited hovering ability normally, but probably only a fall-slowing ability due to limits on how much of their element Toa can normally make under control at one time).

I remember Tuyet doing this - didn't she just propel herself upwards with water jets? I would say that this is doable without a Nui Stone boost, but any Toa that tried it would probably run out of EE before they could get very far - plus it'd probably be slower. 

Despite common misconception, [color=rgb(255,0,0);]Toa of Iron can NOT fly[/color]. Other Toa may be able to effectively slow a fall, and still others may be able to slightly slow a fall, etc.; see the end of this post for more theorizing on that.

6) Can a Toa of Magnetism use his control over magnetism on his armour and make himself fly?6a) What about a Toa of Iron?

 6) Yes6a) No

Source.

I would say that Toa of Iron can effectively use Telekinesis on other beings, but can't levitate themselves effectively - quite like the Mask of Telekinesis, in fact. 

1. If a Toa of Gravity was experienced enough with his element, could he manipulate/bend the gravity around him to achieve flight? :P). Possibly Toa of Lightning may be able to direct electricity in a spiral or ring shape to make a limited electromagnetic field, though as far as I can tell nobody ever asked Greg about this.

Sonics could probably emulate the "sonic drives" seen on the Destral Cycle and hover. Lightning can almost definitely fly - there's electromagnetism on the one hand, and ionic gliding on the other. They'd probably need a Mask of Levitation or a gliding Toa Tool to make these more energy-efficient, though. 

Also, other Toa could project even solid elements downward at as high a speed as they can, to slightly slow a fall, but there would usually be more effective ways to use solid elements to save yourself from a fall, such as making a curving ramp and a surfboard to slide down it with. These are mainly Stone, Iron, and Ice, though the same could help a Toa of Earth to some extent, and Plants.

Nuju was seen slowing Whenua's fall down an ice pole with a spiral ramp of ice, so it could probably help.  

Also note, a Nova Blast would provide enough use of any element with enough force to most likely enable flight, technically, but it could NOT be controlled to aim only downward to propel them up like a rocket. Instead, the element goes out in all directions, and with most elements (other than Water, maybe some others like Air), the Toa is killed in the process too. Only normal use of elements would be controlled enough to aim downward, and with most of these other elements the amount limit used at once would not be enough to provide lift.

I would say that Toa can direct their Nova Blasts to a degree - Vakama was shown absorbing and releasing extremely high levels of energy that instantly vaporized solid stone, and he was a novice. I'm also not entirely sure where you got the idea that Nova Blasts are always suicidal. 

And no, Toa cannot make platforms of their element, stand on them, and lift the platforms. It's often speculated erroneously that for example Pohatu could make a surfboard out of Stone, and lift that while standing on it, since it's confirmed that Toa of Stone can enable Stone to fly telekinetically (as all Toa of material elements can for their respective element). The problem with this is essentially that Pohatu standing on the rock makes the target and the source of the telekinetic power connected in a loop, like the old cartoon cliche of a character putting their feet on a door and yanking on the doorknob in vain to try to open it -- it can never work, because their feet are pushing the same object their hands are pulling, with the same force, so they cancel out. I did try to find a quote to confirm that this is impossible, and could not. It seems not to be something anybody thought to ask until the new forum, but the fact that it's never given as a power for elements, and even Toa of Iron who have metal in themselves cannot lift themselves, while flight is given as a special ability for Gravity and Magnetism, clearly debunks the idea.

This makes sense from a balancing standpoint, yes. Your explanation also clears up the scientific side of things (though that was how I had headcanon'd it to begin with), so that's good.

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#4 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:06 PM

And no, Toa cannot make platforms of their element, stand on them, and lift the platforms. It's often speculated erroneously that for example Pohatu could make a surfboard out of Stone, and lift that while standing on it, since it's confirmed that Toa of Stone can enable Stone to fly telekinetically (as all Toa of material elements can for their respective element). The problem with this is essentially that Pohatu standing on the rock makes the target and the source of the telekinetic power connected in a loop, like the old cartoon cliche of a character putting their feet on a door and yanking on the doorknob in vain to try to open it -- it can never work, because their feet are pushing the same object their hands are pulling, with the same force, so they cancel out.

 

 

 

I remember a similar situation in which my physics professor demonstrated by a sailboat couldn't be propelled by an onboard fan blowing into the sail. The air from the fan pushes on the sail, but the sail pushes back with equal force, and since they're all attached, the boat goes nowhere. I know it's said Bionicle physics are different in some ways, but I see no reason to believe Newton's third law doesn't apply to them. So it all makes sense. Same with a Toa of Plasma using his power to fly - it would work like a real-life ion engine. Though I imagine it would be less efficient, unless the Toa had a lot of skill at controlling his element.

 

Thanks, Bonesiii. If you make a new official elements topic, this should definitely go in it.


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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:17 PM

I would say that Toa can direct their Nova Blasts to a degree - Vakama was shown absorbing and releasing extremely high levels of energy that instantly vaporized solid stone, and he was a novice. I'm also not entirely sure where you got the idea that Nova Blasts are always suicidal.

I presume you're thinking of the overload release when he faced the fire elemental creature at the beginning of the first 2005 book. That was not a Nova Blast; that was a result of the fact that Toa have a maximum limit of how much elemental energy they can hold, and he defeated the elemental by absorbing heat from it. Therefore he was on overload and had to release it in a particular direction or else it would erupt in all directions.

 

Also, I specifically stated that not all Nova Blasts are suicidal. :P

 

 

 

I remember a similar situation in which my physics professor demonstrated by a sailboat couldn't be propelled by an onboard fan blowing into the sail. The air from the fan pushes on the sail, but the sail pushes back with equal force, and since they're all attached, the boat goes nowhere.

Actually, the Mythbusters busted that idea. That is not actually what's happening in that case. It's really a redirected jet effect. Without the sail, the fan would propel the boat, yes? That's because the fan is pulling itself forward through the substance of the air -- it's not a closed system. The sail simply redirects this effect in the opposite direction, and makes it highly inefficient, but it does move. See here.


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#6 Offline Cosmic Titan

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:37 PM

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]This is nice and all but by this point Bionicle is just a big jumbled mess in my head where nothing makes sense. And in my head everyone that I want gets the ability to fly one way or another.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]And thanks for crushing a long held belief that Toa of iron could just go all Silver Surfer, same with plant (wooden surfboard) and something similar to what Terra can do but for Toa of earth and stone. But don't worry I'll just think up even stranger ideas to give most if not all my characters flight. Like mutations, mutation always works well as good explanations to deviation.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]Oh and we can't forget that any normal Toa could just get a Kadin and skip this whole mess altogether. Or possibly a Crast or jetpack.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]I'm just gonna leave it at this. I would prefer to not appear to be "flaming" or "raging." And yes flight is among my most favorite powers.[/font]


Edited by Cosmic Titan, Dec 09 2012 - 01:38 PM.

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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:44 PM

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]This is nice and all but by this point Bionicle is just a big jumbled mess in my head where nothing makes sense. And in my head everyone that I want gets the ability to fly one way or another.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]And thanks for crushing a long held belief that Toa of iron could just go all Silver Surfer, same with plant (wooden surfboard) and something similar to what Terra can do but for Toa of earth and stone. But don't worry I'll just think up even stranger ideas to give most if not all my characters flight. Like mutations, mutation always works well as good explanations to deviation.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]Oh and we can't forget that any normal Toa could just get a Kadin and skip this whole mess altogether. Or possibly a Crast or jetpack.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]I'm just gonna leave it at this. I would prefer to not appear to be "flaming" or "raging." And yes flight is among my most favorite powers.[/font]

It may help to realize that the GBs probably put intentional limits on most of them (like not allowing Iron Toa to lift themselves) simply to make sure they would not be overpowered, in case they started glitching. :) They all do make sense if you think it through, but if that seems too hard to bother with, the GB limitation theory can also explain it all easily and simply.

 

As always, though, we're fully free to headcanon it however we like; this is merely about what is established canon.

 

And yeah, besides a Kadin, they could all have something like Lhikan's surfboard with its own flight power, if they wanted. It seems that most Toa generally do not feel the need for flight abilities.


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#8 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 01:58 PM

Actually, the Mythbusters busted that idea. That is not actually what's happening in that case. It's really a redirected jet effect. Without the sail, the fan would propel the boat, yes? That's because the fan is pulling itself forward through the substance of the air -- it's not a closed system. The sail simply redirects this effect in the opposite direction, and makes it highly inefficient, but it does move. See here.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Still, like you said, the sail does counter the force that acts on it, and that principle would still apply to the elemental hoverboard idea. It's a better explanation than the arm analogy, I think, because the handstand argument doesn't apply.

 

Speaking of the Crast, I wonder how easy/efficiently one can fly with it. I'd guess there would be an altitude ceiling, because the ground has to be in range of the mask's power. Also, it wouldn't be much use if you were falling at a dangerous rate. While a Miru would allow you to slow your descent and a Kadin would allow you to fly under your own power, the Crast would apply an upward force that would hit you harder than hitting the ground would. I imagine it's also much more difficult to use to fly over water.


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#9 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 02:07 PM

Tuyet only "flew" because she stood on a rising column of water, like how Pohatu (and Nuju, in one of the promo animations) have lifted themselves by creating their element under their feet. It does not disconnect from the ground, it just pushes upwards as it is formed. I imagine that if a Toa of Water is falling, aiming down will only make whomever is standing beneath her wet, not slow the fall in any way unless the water jet impacts the ground and is powerful enough to lift the Toa (and not simply splash sideways).Vakama's launcher is a Toa Tool that channels his element. By wearing it on his back and channeling power through it, he can fly. A Toa of Stone would likely just make a back-mounted gravel cannon, and Tahu trying to use his sword might simply not have the right shape or construction to make flight viable. It's a curious tool indeed. Could any regular Kanoka launcher work, I wonder?

Edited by Katuko, Dec 09 2012 - 02:08 PM.

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#10 Offline Cosmic Titan

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 02:15 PM

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]This is nice and all but by this point Bionicle is just a big jumbled mess in my head where nothing makes sense. And in my head everyone that I want gets the ability to fly one way or another.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]And thanks for crushing a long held belief that Toa of iron could just go all Silver Surfer, same with plant (wooden surfboard) and something similar to what Terra can do but for Toa of earth and stone. But don't worry I'll just think up even stranger ideas to give most if not all my characters flight. Like mutations, mutation always works well as good explanations to deviation.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]Oh and we can't forget that any normal Toa could just get a Kadin and skip this whole mess altogether. Or possibly a Crast or jetpack.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]I'm just gonna leave it at this. I would prefer to not appear to be "flaming" or "raging." And yes flight is among my most favorite powers.[/font]

It may help to realize that the GBs probably put intentional limits on most of them (like not allowing Iron Toa to lift themselves) simply to make sure they would not be overpowered, in case they started glitching. :) They all do make sense if you think it through, but if that seems too hard to bother with, the GB limitation theory can also explain it all easily and simply.

 

As always, though, we're fully free to headcanon it however we like; this is merely about what is established canon.

 

And yeah, besides a Kadin, they could all have something like Lhikan's surfboard with its own flight power, if they wanted. It seems that most Toa generally do not feel the need for flight abilities.

 

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]Oh yes those Great Beings they are always so useful to explain various quirks in the story.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]Headcanon is always fun to play around with, so many possibilities. But knowing canon is nice too.[/font]

 

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]Thinking it over, most Toa don't really seem to have much desire to fly save for Toa of air. And Nuparu with his Kadin. I really enjoyed it back when he could fly. It was so funny a Toa of earth that could fly.  :P Oh now I want to reread the stories.[/font]


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#11 Offline tomdroidser

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 03:06 PM

Couldn't Toa of Stone fly by simply moving sizable rocks in the air and be inside/standing in them?

 

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#12 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 03:11 PM

Couldn't Toa of Stone fly by simply moving sizable rocks in the air and be inside/standing in them? -Tomdroidser

What bonesii gave a perfect sientific explenation why not, thats the whole point of this topic

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#13 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 03:43 PM

Could a Toa of Sonics fly by using sound?

 

Also, any Toa could fly if they wore a Kadin, right?


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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 04:23 PM

Speaking of the Crast, I wonder how easy/efficiently one can fly with it. I'd guess there would be an altitude ceiling, because the ground has to be in range of the mask's power.

Right, it's a ground repulsion effect rather than actual flight. It's basically the same thing as invisible legs (or the handstand analogy). The limit is probably just a few feet or yards (bio).

 

Also, it wouldn't be much use if you were falling at a dangerous rate.

Probably not if you reached terminal velocity, but anything to cushion even that kind of fall gives you a chance. There have been cases of survivors of failed parachutes for example if they land just right amidst soft enough ground, etc. And this becomes more so if you haven't quite reached TV [edit: lol, TV is already taken as an acronym... termvel?] (meaning you're falling from a smaller height, such as when parachutes break when close to the ground).

 

 

the Crast would apply an upward force that would hit you harder than hitting the ground would.

No, that's not how it works. Only if something flew up at you would force be added. What the Crast would do, similar to any cushioning material like inflated safety cushions, is slow down the deacceleration. In other words, it brings the same amount of force to you, but over more time rather than a sudden impact. It's the amount of kinetic energy transferred into you at each moment that causes damage, so any cushioning effect like the Crast lessens the maximum kinetic acceleration.

 

Translation: the Crast would help you survive falls; it wouldn't make them worse. It's just that it might not always be enough of an effect to save your life.

 

 

I imagine it's also much more difficult to use to fly over water.

It would probably be similar to hovercraft that operate well on water or flat land, actually, or like a low-powered helicopter over water. It would create a cratering effect in the water and you'd hover lower, but in normal water this wouldn't be a problem. You'd be much lower in the water's average level, but the water under you would still be about the same distance away from you, and you could hover basically the same.

 

 

Tuyet only "flew" because she stood on a rising column of water, like how Pohatu (and Nuju, in one of the promo animations) have lifted themselves by creating their element under their feet.

Actually no; the difference is that it's a fluid, so her own weight naturally forces it aside even as she elementally tries to hold it up, and it does not naturally stack. Solids do naturally stack and if in contact with the ground do not need continued control to hold themselves up. Water by contrast naturally seeks a level. And she went up very high, to the point that fluid's limit of contact with ground was surpassed.

 

So basically Tuyet had to make the water flow up the same speed she would need to blast it down in order to fly freely. Whereas a solid tower doesn't need to flow up at all.

 

The problem I have is simply that normal Toa of Water probably can't make it flow fast enough for that. Though I do think that any Toa of Water could float a little distance above a fountain column. But not high up; that would be ground-effect hovering basically.

 

 

I imagine that if a Toa of Water is falling, aiming down will only make whomever is standing beneath her wet, not slow the fall in any way unless the water jet impacts the ground and is powerful enough to lift the Toa (and not simply splash sideways).

No, no, all force in a downward direction creates an equal and opposite force up (the same way Toa of Fire and Air can fly). It also reacts against air, just not as much as against a solid, since air is even more fluid than liquid (helicopters fly by forcing air downward to react cyclically against the surrounding air for example). The issue is only that the scene implies that Toa of Water can't normally do this with enough force to hover or lift.

 

 

Could any regular Kanoka launcher work, I wonder?

I haven't looked for quotes on this yet but I think Greg said something about it was specifically designed to channel the element as a jetpack, so probably not. The Kanoka launching part of it is also irrelevant, BTW. The question basically means, can any back-mounted Toa Tool work?

 

 

Couldn't Toa of Stone fly by simply moving sizable rocks in the air and be inside/standing in them?

No; see the last two paragraphs of my firstpost:

 

 

And no, Toa cannot make platforms of their element, stand on them, and lift the platforms. It's often speculated erroneously that for example Pohatu could make a surfboard out of Stone, and lift that while standing on it, since it's confirmed that Toa of Stone can enable Stone to fly telekinetically (as all Toa of material elements can for their respective element). The problem with this is essentially that Pohatu standing on the rock makes the target and the source of the telekinetic power connected in a loop, like the old cartoon cliche of a character putting their feet on a door and yanking on the doorknob in vain to try to open it -- it can never work, because their feet are pushing the same object their hands are pulling, with the same force, so they cancel out.

 

I did try to find a quote to confirm that this is impossible, and could not. It seems not to be something anybody thought to ask until the new forum, but the fact that it's never given as a power for elements, and even Toa of Iron who have metal in themselves cannot lift themselves, while flight is given as a special ability for Gravity and Magnetism, clearly debunks the idea.

 

 

 

 

Could a Toa of Sonics fly by using sound?

 

Also, any Toa could fly if they wore a Kadin, right?

1) I could find zero information on this from Greg one way or the other. Sorry I forgot to mention that I did search specifically for it. I didn't even find many posts even speculating about it on the old forum; it seems nobody thought of it until the new forum other than a few passing references to the possibility. My guess is that like I said it may enable slight slowing of a fall, but probably not hovering or flight. In real life sound does not have a strong pushing power directly; it tends to move things gradually or by sudden failures due to harmonic buildup. That doesn't really apply to air.

 

2) Yes.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 09 2012 - 04:37 PM.

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#15 Offline Lokisyn

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 04:47 PM

Magneto can travel in metal ball with his powers, why not Pohatu? I'm sure any Toa of Stone (or Iron, Ice etc.) can pull rock platform harder with his powers than pushing it down just with his weight.


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#16 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 04:51 PM

Magneto can travel in metal ball with his powers, why not Pohatu? I'm sure any Toa of Stone (or Iron, Ice etc.) can pull rock platform harder with his powers than pushing it down just with his weight.

If you're pulling something up the equal force pulls you down it only works when your feet are on solig grod otherwise the two powers clash and nothing happens(3e law of newton). Welcome to the wonderfull world of physics my friend :)

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#17 Offline Kumata

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 04:59 PM

Magneto can travel in metal ball with his powers, why not Pohatu? I'm sure any Toa of Stone (or Iron, Ice etc.) can pull rock platform harder with his powers than pushing it down just with his weight.

Because this isn't X-Men physics, this is Bionicle physics.


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#18 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 05:09 PM

Tuyet only "flew" because she stood on a rising column of water, like how Pohatu (and Nuju, in one of the promo animations) have lifted themselves by creating their element under their feet.

Actually no; the difference is that it's a fluid, so her own weight naturally forces it aside even as she elementally tries to hold it up, and it does not naturally stack. Solids do naturally stack and if in contact with the ground do not need continued control to hold themselves up. Water by contrast naturally seeks a level. And she went up very high, to the point that fluid's limit of contact with ground was surpassed.

Well, it depends entirely on how much the Nui Stone influenced her ability to control the water. It was my understanding that it was extremely more powerful than a regular Toa of Water, and going by the typical movie-physics that BIONICLE operates under I do not see standing on a water jet as anything special. They create water and form it to a pillar through continuous application of elemental energy, no problem.  

I imagine that if a Toa of Water is falling, aiming down will only make whomever is standing beneath her wet, not slow the fall in any way unless the water jet impacts the ground and is powerful enough to lift the Toa (and not simply splash sideways).

No, no, all force in a downward direction creates an equal and opposite force up (the same way Toa of Fire and Air can fly). It also reacts against air, just not as much as against a solid, since air is even more fluid than liquid (helicopters fly by forcing air downward to react cyclically against the surrounding air for example). The issue is only that the scene implies that Toa of Water can't normally do this with enough force to hover or lift.

I have seen a person fly with a firehose-powered jetpack, so that's not really the issue for me here. Water being blasted downwards creates force, yes. But it was my impression that you can fly with the power of Air because you manipulate the air itself to blow you upwards. Water is created by the Toa, and unlike a firehose the water is created mid-air. I don't see why such a "magic" effect would apply a direct force on the Toa when the energy behind the water motion is technically not applied to the Toa, but only to the water that forms . Look at Mask of Light, for example. Gali's water stream towards Lehrak does not "hose" so much as it "forms" in mid-air; And while there is definite force applied to the target, I can't say that Gali looks like she's receiving the same force herself. Lewa's tornado-creation and Kopaka's earlier ice beam does not seem to push the user at all, for some reason.If we say that yes, water can slow a fall by blasting downwards, then suddenly earth and stone should as well because their created solids can be flung just as hard. I'm wondering what the limit here is. Can Toa of Plant Life fly or slow a fall by pushing downwards? Ice? Iron?

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#19 Offline Lokisyn

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 05:09 PM

But are Toa actually pulling and pushing things, or they're just moving things in space with their mind, with no force between them (other than elemental) involved? If the latter, I think they could freely fly on platforms of their elements.

 

Because this isn't X-Men physics, this is Bionicle physics.

Both are fictional, and BIONICLE physics is not determined yet as far as I know, unless you have clarification from Greg. And even then, he can change his mind.


Edited by Lokisyn, Dec 09 2012 - 05:14 PM.

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#20 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 05:12 PM

It's moot anyways, because Toa of Magnetism can move themselves by creating magnetic fields in the right locations, just like Magneto. Toa of Iron, however, does not use "external" forces to do the moving, they apply their element directly to the material, and thus they can't lift themselves.
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#21 Offline Lokisyn

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 05:26 PM

But why they can't apply their elemental power from under the platform, and make it fly, and them with it?

If they apply momentum to it, then the platform will be pushing them.

 

I remember that Magneto, at least in X-Men Evolution, travelled on long distances in metal ball, but you might be right, it's slightly different.

But I'm still sure Toa can travel on platforms in similiar way, just replace magnetism with Element of Iron and make it fly


Edited by Lokisyn, Dec 09 2012 - 05:32 PM.

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#22 Online One-Eyed Construct

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 06:12 PM

Magneto wasn't directly controlling the iron; he was creating a G-Moddy level magnetic field to shape it. There's a difference; Iron gives you direct control over the metal while magnetism gives you. Magnetism as a go-between.
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#23 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 06:41 PM

Well, it depends entirely on how much the Nui Stone influenced her ability to control the water. It was my understanding that it was extremely more powerful than a regular Toa of Water, and going by the typical movie-physics that BIONICLE operates under I do not see standing on a water jet as anything special.

I agree; like I said, it was used as the final, thus implying most impressive, example of use of the Nui Stone. My point was only that it's technically innaccurate to say Toa of Water couldn't slow their fall at all. They could... and any amount can help you survive in more situations.

 

 

 

Water being blasted downwards creates force, yes. But it was my impression that you can fly with the power of Air because you manipulate the air itself to blow you upwards.

 

As I understand it, Greg was talking about an unaided Toa of Air, and the fire jetpack is physically shaped to aid the downward direction of any elemental blast (fire happens to be among the most effective uses for it). Water aided by that jetpack would probably help you slow a fall much better, and maybe hover higher, versus just a Toa of Water on her own or with a Tool not designed for that.

 

 

Water is created by the Toa, and unlike a firehose the water is created mid-air. I don't see why such a "magic" effect would apply a direct force on the Toa when the energy behind the water motion is technically not applied to the Toa, but only to the water that forms . Look at Mask of Light, for example. Gali's water stream towards Lehrak does not "hose" so much as it "forms" in mid-air;

I thought of that, but that is just one use of the power. If you think about it, Toa would not normally want to be blasted backwards by the use of their power, so usually they send out a beam of elemental energy (which has no pushing power as far as we know) and mentally trigger its transformation into the element on the way. However, Vakama's jetpack example shows that with the right design, this can still translate into an equal-and-opposite type reaction. Also, if they transform it immediately rather than with an in-progress beam, there would be a pushback effect naturally.

 

 

If we say that yes, water can slow a fall by blasting downwards, then suddenly earth and stone should as well because their created solids can be flung just as hard.

They can, as I said, it's just that it's nowhere near as effective. (So ineffective it's barely worth mentioning really. :P) Think of what it would take to make a rocket that could shape an explosion of rock so that it would provide that kind of kickback. Chances are you'd just tear the rocket to pieces... unless you made it so sturdy it ended up being too heavy to be lifted much or controlled safely. There's a reason rockets use fluid dynamics. :P

 

I would personally guess that a falling Toa of the heavier solid elements will have better luck making something on the ground that will redirect his fall, like the example I gave of creating a ramp, or the spiral example. It also might be more effective to make a boulder while falling, and physically throw it downwards with your arms. Either way, it probably won't accelerate fast enough to help survive most falls.

 

Earth would be better for the rocket thing than Stone, though. Still, earth moving at rapid speeds can be very destructive as well; landslides. Maybe in an emergency, if Whenua were to grab Vakama's jetpack he might be able to slow a fall enough to survive versus if he didn't grab the jetpack though.

 

 

Can Toa of Plant Life fly or slow a fall by pushing downwards? Ice? Iron?

By definition, all elements with any mass (pushing power) can technically slow a fall. But if the question is if they can do it by pure creation of their element in a normal beam aimed downward, with nothing to channel it in a jetpack-type mode, enough to actually survive -- that specific question leaving out no detail of it at all -- I would have to say not by a long shot.

 

 

 

 

But are Toa actually pulling and pushing things, or they're just moving things in space with their mind, with no force between them (other than elemental) involved? If the latter, I think they could freely fly on platforms of their elements.

If that was the case, though, then Toa of Iron should be able to lift themselves, and Greg said they cannot. :) Also, it would beg the question of why we've never seen it done?

 

Again, it comes down to the fact that whatever you're standing on is taking the weight of both yourself and whatever you're lifting. If you make what you're lifting and what you're standing on the same thing, the two forces always cancel each other out (in a closed system like the platform speculation).

 

But again, if you want to headcanon it differently for fanfics and the like, you're free to. :)

 

 

Both are fictional, and BIONICLE physics is not determined yet as far as I know, unless you have clarification from Greg. And even then, he can change his mind.

A good deal of Bionicle physics is determined, and basic Newtonian physics have always been depicted as applying. Like Katuko said, Magneto moving metal that he's standing on is not a closed system because he's creating a magnetic force that moves it. Just like a Toa of Magnetism can. But you never see Wolverine using his arms to lift up a platform that he is also standing on. It's simply impossible. You'd have to lift it against the ground somehow (like a Kanohi Kadin does), or against the air (like a helicopter, etc.).

 

 

But why they can't apply their elemental power from under the platform, and make it fly, and them with it?

Because they're not under the platform if they're on top of it. :)

 

You can lift a platform with other people on it, however, similar to Nuju's lifting of Vakama telekinetically. (Or to continue the X-Men analogy, like Wolverine lifting a platform with someone else on it.)

 

 

If they apply momentum to it, then the platform will be pushing them.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Momentum means that an object is already moving. Perhaps you meant a different term, like force. But to take that sentence literally, to apply momentum to the platform from under, and then to be on top of it for it to lift them, would require them not to be on it at first, and then to leap on as it starts moving up. You'd have to expend just as much energy via your leg muscles that you're not really gaining anything constructive out of it, and your own mass would deaccelerate the platform (rob it of its momentum) by an equal amount.

 

In other words, you'd accomplish the same thing as if you had just physically leaped up. Also the platform would be going at maximum speed right when you're at the top of your jump if you want any measureable effect, and that's just gonna get you injured lol. It would be better to make a staircase. :P

 

 

I remember that Magneto, at least in X-Men Evolution, travelled on long distances in metal ball, but you might be right, it's slightly different.

Just to make sure this is clear, Magneto is not doing the same thing as the Po-Toa platform idea. He's doing the same thing as the confirmed Toa of Magnetism idea (hence the name). There is no inconsistency between these physics; they are identical.

 

 

But I'm still sure Toa can travel on platforms in similiar way, just replace magnetism with Element of Iron and make it fly

Please see the first quote in my firstpost. Greg told us the answer's no. In that example, the armor is serving the function of a platform, and Greg said it would not work for a Fe-Toa.

 

More importantly, if you replace magnetism with Iron, you replace all the physics of magnetism with the physics of iron. Part of the physics of both magnetism and gravity is that they have a natural pulling power on matter. Matter itself does not.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 09 2012 - 06:54 PM.

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#24 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 09:34 PM

the Crast would apply an upward force that would hit you harder than hitting the ground would.

No, that's not how it works. Only if something flew up at you would force be added. What the Crast would do, similar to any cushioning material like inflated safety cushions, is slow down the deacceleration. In other words, it brings the same amount of force to you, but over more time rather than a sudden impact. It's the amount of kinetic energy transferred into you at each moment that causes damage, so any cushioning effect like the Crast lessens the maximum kinetic acceleration.

 

Translation: the Crast would help you survive falls; it wouldn't make them worse. It's just that it might not always be enough of an effect to save your life.

 

Oh, that makes sense. You're saying it couldn't make an impulse any bigger than hitting the ground would anyway, right? Though it's not exactly a gentle push, either.

 

 

I imagine it's also much more difficult to use to fly over water.

It would probably be similar to hovercraft that operate well on water or flat land, actually, or like a low-powered helicopter over water. It would create a cratering effect in the water and you'd hover lower, but in normal water this wouldn't be a problem. You'd be much lower in the water's average level, but the water under you would still be about the same distance away from you, and you could hover basically the same.

I don't know much about how that stuff works. Could you clarify the last sentence?


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#25 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 09:39 PM

Thanks for this bones, it was an interesting read.


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#26 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 10:27 PM

Oh, that makes sense. You're saying it couldn't make an impulse any bigger than hitting the ground would anyway, right? Though it's not exactly a gentle push, either.

I don't know much about how that stuff works. Could you clarify the last sentence?

 

1) A better analogy would be an airbag. Even though the exploding airbag is pushing something at you, it's got compressibility, like a safety cushion. The Crast doesn't solidly push things away. In order to make a worse effect basically you'd need a giant piston with little to no compressibility lifting a platform under you. (No compressibility means that when you hit it, it doesn't move down. But the Crast, like an airbag, has a bouncy effect, so the effect would give a little.)

 

2) I mean, as the Crast would push down on water, it would make a crater effect in the water. So no water is any closer to you than the nearest land would be when hovering over solid ground. It's just that compared to the farther water (outside the crater), you seem sunken down a little, whereas on land that is not the case.

 

An easy way to visualize this would be to fill up a sink, and blow directly down into the water. There you see the crater effect. Or look at a video of a helicopter hovering just over water. (It's actually the same principle as how a boat displaces water in a craterish shape, except moving air, or in this case a repulsive power, causes it instead of a boat's hull.)

 

Does that help? :)


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#27 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 10:45 PM

Ah, I get what you're saying. Though I think the force from a Kanohi Crast actually is really fast and hard, so like you said, you it wouldn't be of much help unless you were able to use it to stop your fall before you reached a dangerous velocity, and that's not likely if it has a maximum range of only a few bio.


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#28 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 09 2012 - 10:58 PM

Right.


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#29 Online ~T1S~

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 12:54 AM

So, Toa of Iron cannot fly.... Without a Kadin...

Well... Good thing the Toa of Iron in my future epic is afraid of heights.

 

Interesting info about the flight-like capabilities of other Toa elements, though.

 

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#30 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 02:44 AM

I didn't view Tuyet as shooting water downwards, but simply floating waist-high in a column of water.  Imagine just floating in a pool of water but take away the concrete edges of the pool so that the water is suspended in the air.  You would still be able to swim around at the top of the water rather than falling to the bottom.  Anyways, that's just how I thought it would work.


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#31 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 05:12 AM

I suppose that if you got Plant Life, you're better off with a giant leaf as a parachute. Plasma could, even if the element itself is not directed like a jetpack, attempt to do use the trick that Tahu did back in '01. He still had to be caught by Onua, though, and I'm not sure if that was an aversion or a direct usage of the typical movie physics of "hitting the ground is bad, being caught saves you". Given that they comment on the heat being necessary, though, it was likely *just* enough so that's Onua's somewhat cushioned grab wouldn't be harmful.

Ah, I get what you're saying. Though I think the force from a Kanohi Crast actually is really fast and hard, so like you said, you it wouldn't be of much help unless you were able to use it to stop your fall before you reached a dangerous velocity, and that's not likely if it has a maximum range of only a few bio.

The push force likely varies a bit based on the user's mental focus, so that a user could potentially apply just a gentle push ("please don't get any closer") versus a violent push ("get away from me!"). By that notion you could probably slow yourself a bit while falling if you repel the air, but given the range limit I don't see the Crast as saving anyone if they're going very fast. The full repel would as you say not activate until you almost hit the ground, and at that point slowing down rapidly is almost as bad as hitting the ground. Then again, better to merely break your legs than have them suddenly compacted into your skull.

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#32 Offline Podu

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 05:25 AM

I think Toa of Water can fly with their elemental powers, as in BA3: The Darkness Below Nokama had harnessed her power to create a watersprout that sent a Rahkshi flying to the ceiling, but that also shows they seem to have little control of the flight and can endanger themselves if they aren't careful.


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#33 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 05:35 AM

Water definitely has a lot of force when applied properly, but Nokama was pushing up from below by shooting water at the Rahkshi. The question here is how much force she could output if she was in midair and pushing away from herself.If she wills the water to be blasted instead of being created from energy as it flies, then perhaps.Posted ImageAll right, if she had Vakama's Toa Tool I can see Nokama flying at least, I'll say that.
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#34 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 11:01 AM

 Imagine just floating in a pool of water but take away the concrete edges of the pool so that the water is suspended in the air.

So you don't think the water was moving at all -- she was just holding it in place with superior power? It's possible.

 

Regardless, the fact that Greg confirmed Air Toa can technically fly unaided does demonstrate that fluid dynamics make a significant lift potential, and water is essentially the same in that way. But we have no evidence to say for sure that they can fly unaided, so we should assume unless told differently IMO that they could only slow a fall (or maybe hover off the ground/sea a little).

 

 

Plasma could, even if the element itself is not directed like a jetpack, attempt to do use the trick that Tahu did back in '01. He still had to be caught by Onua, though, and I'm not sure if that was an aversion or a direct usage of the typical movie physics of "hitting the ground is bad, being caught saves you".

Lol. It was realistic actually; the closer you get to the ground, the less air there is between it and you to heat. So having anything like a cushion at the end of the fall would be best.

 

 

By that notion you could probably slow yourself a bit while falling if you repel the air,

That's possible, hadn't considered it, since Greg confirmed they can only hover. But yeah, a slight slowing of a fall makes sense.

 

All in all, though, better to have a Miru lol.


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#35 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 11:13 AM

What if a crast user Toa of water used the kanohi together with her powers to blast the water down, would that be enough to fly?


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#36 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 01:26 PM

What if a crast user Toa of water used the kanohi together with her powers to blast the water down, would that be enough to fly?

Interesting idea. No way to know for sure though unless Greg were to give an official answer.


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#37 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 01:34 PM

And couldn't a toa of iron create a helicopter type vehicle out of a  light metal and use his power to move the (you know what I mean the turning things above a helicopter)


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#38 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 01:53 PM

And couldn't a toa of iron create a helicopter type vehicle out of a  light metal and use his power to move the (you know what I mean the turning things above a helicopter)

That should work, yes -- that makes it not a closed system and it would be using air to lift, similar to a Toa of Air. Overcoming friction might be an issue though.


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#39 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 01:59 PM

And so is proven the whole idea behind lego if you're creative enough everything is possible.

 

Only this wouldn't be able for a toa of stone or a toa of earth.


Edited by Dual Matrix, Dec 10 2012 - 02:01 PM.

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#40 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 10 2012 - 03:37 PM

And so is proven the whole idea behind lego if you're creative enough everything is possible.

 

Only this wouldn't be able for a toa of stone or a toa of earth.

Yeah, those elements seem to be the worst for this.

 

Earth Toa could make a cushion of soft ground to somewhat help survive a lowish fall, though.


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