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'Sea of Protodermis' and 'Protodermis' nuggets - bad t


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#1 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 12:55 AM

In Legends of Metru Nui, the term 'Sea of Protodermis' was used twice. The first time it referred to the simulated waves in the Coliseum made by the moving stone pillars, and the second time it was <LargeHam>the real Sea of... Pro...to...dermis</LargeHam> as Makuta called it. But almost everything in the Matoran Universe (everything except the air, I think) is made of protodermis. So why call it that? It's almost like calling the real-life ocean the Sea of Matter.

 

And in the Mata Nui Online Game, there was a similar situation with the valuable substance the Onu-Matoran mined being called protodermis. But everything they mined would have been some sort of protodermis, right? So are these cases instances of poor translation from Matoran to real languages, or did the characters actually call it that?

 

While we're on the subject, why do you think the makers of Bionicle named it protodermis? It means something like 'first skin', so did they just make that up because it sounds cool or is it actually supposed to mean something? Maybe it refers to how it makes up the outermost layer of Mata Nui's body and/or the beings inside it.

 

Whoops, looks like the title was too long. I meant for the end to say "bad translation?".


Edited by The Iron Toa, Dec 12 2012 - 12:58 AM.

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#2 Offline northmarch

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 01:35 AM

I think when they just call something Protodermis, it is a raw, unrefined. Protodermis seems to mimic real world physics and substances, so a pice of Protodermis granite is different from the raw Protodermis (solid examples apply too liquid). When it comes too liquid Protodermis, it's close enough to regular water to be controlled by a toa of water, but when it is refined ( and turns blue). It much more closely mimics real warer.Is this making any sense?I read a theory on Protodermis being a sort of ciberclay. Never finished reading it though.So when it is just called Protodermis, it It is a blank slate, nothing has been programmed to make it act like something else. This makes it different to most Protodermis which is programmed to act like something else. Just an idea.

Edited by northmarch, Dec 12 2012 - 01:36 AM.

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#3 Offline Click

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 01:38 AM

Protodermis is present in everything, but it also comes in pure forms, notably liquid Protodermis, like the Sea of Protodermis (Silver Sea), solid Protodermis, mined in Onu-Koro, and molten Protodermis, used to make masks. All of these are 100% Protodermis (give or take impurities), and so are called simply Protodermis.

 

I've often been curious about the name as well. Proto- does indeed mean "first," as in prototype, and -dermis is "skin," as in epidermis, but I've never been sure about the connection. Perhaps because everything in Bionicle is protodermis, and when they were formed, they began as Protodermis (sometimes), making it their "first skin?" It probably has something to do with everything having protodermis in it.


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#4 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 01:48 AM

Yes, it's somewhat of a bad translation, basically simplified for kiddies. :P But it does make sense because it refers to a purer form of it. You know that protodermis has the ability to mimic the physics of normal matter of all kinds, right? Well, in both liquid and solid form, pure(r) protodermis doesn't have specific material physics; it's more of a generic substance, similar to plastic but more metallic in nature. It tends to be more valuable (especially because it can enable the infinite range of protodermic powers, plus somewhat pure is better for building and the like than raw, apparently).

 

In the case of the Silver Sea, "protowater" would be a better translation.

 

In the case of MNOG, as far as I recall (having played through that convo many times), "nugget" is not used. I believe Greg confirmed they were talking about liquid protodermis there, which would indeed be very rare on Mata Nui, since the ocean and rainwater streams there were real water.

 

In the case of the first use of it in the comics, it's referring to Energized Protodermis. But that too is a liquid form; most uses of the term as a type of protodermis have that in common, so that's basically what it means -- "protoliquid".

 

 

I read a theory on Protodermis being a sort of ciberclay. Never finished reading it though.So when it is just called Protodermis, it It is a blank slate, nothing has been programmed to make it act like something else. This makes it different to most Protodermis which is programmed to act like something else.

Basically the idea of my cyberclay theory was twofold -- it's like nanites with advanced forcefield and energymatter conversion technology, sort of like a Star Trek starship condensed down into a tiny particle, with all those basic abilities, which can be programmed to be recombined in ways to enable any other power.

 

And second, that each of these particles has all the components to be a functioning, living cell, but is normally in a dormant, non-living state. So, literally, "proto-alive". Flipping a switch in the programming would turn it into a single cell of raw organic protodermis, and further programming (such as a DNA equivalent) would determine other details for what lifeform it would be a part of.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 12 2012 - 01:51 AM.

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#5 Offline ZippyWharrgarbl

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 05:12 AM

Well, I think I have an answer for the multiple protodermis words. It could be like how some languages have more than one word for things. Also, we call liquid H2O 'Water', and solid H2O 'Ice', and Gaseous H2O 'Water Vapour'. So we have three words for the same thing in different forms. It could be the same for protodermis.


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#6 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 05:42 AM

Here a link to the archives old protodermis topic: http://www.bzpower.c...howtopic=146683

 

Totally agree with the statements there nothing much to say.


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#7 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 09:17 AM

It doesn't get mixed with anything, so 'pure' protodermis isn't the best term for it, but I get what you're saying. 'Protowater' is its default form, without any extra qualities programmed into it, right? The mined protodermis wasn't called nuggets but in the MNOLG2 there's this. So I guess that's something like the protowater, except in stone or metallic form instead of liquid for some reason.


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#8 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 09:47 AM

Here my interpretation of protodermis: Posted Image

Edited by Dual Matrix, Dec 12 2012 - 09:48 AM.

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 10:54 AM

It doesn't get mixed with anything, so 'pure' protodermis isn't the best term for it, but I get what you're saying.

We don't know that for sure. One theory is that the matter-mimicking forms actually bond with molecules of the type of matter in question.

 

Even under my cyberclay theory, though, the term is appropriate as it refers to a "pure" state of coding.

 

 

'Protowater' is its default form, without any extra qualities programmed into it, right?

Well, I think so. That default form has both the liquid and solid (at room temp) versions, though, and both have been referred to as "protodermis" as a special type. Although the solid form is created by a special rapid heating and cooling, which may make it a bit less "pure" in a different way.

 

Possibly that is what the MNOG2 reference refers to; they might mine it in liquid form but heatcool it to solid. Or, that might be a secondary mining procedure to find solid pure proto.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 12 2012 - 10:56 AM.

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#10 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 02:40 PM

 

It doesn't get mixed with anything, so 'pure' protodermis isn't the best term for it, but I get what you're saying.

We don't know that for sure. One theory is that the matter-mimicking forms actually bond with molecules of the type of matter in question.

 

I never thought of that. If they're large molecules or artificial cell-like building blocks, I suppose there could be room for the natural molecules they emulate in them.

 

Even under my cyberclay theory, though, the term is appropriate as it refers to a "pure" state of coding.

 

Right, I was just thinking of purity in terms of being part of a compound or mixture with non-protodermic substances, which as you just pointed out, might actually be used to differentiate the types.

 

'Protowater' is its default form, without any extra qualities programmed into it, right?

Well, I think so. That default form has both the liquid and solid (at room temp) versions, though, and both have been referred to as "protodermis" as a special type. Although the solid form is created by a special rapid heating and cooling, which may make it a bit less "pure" in a different way.

 

Possibly that is what the MNOG2 reference refers to; they might mine it in liquid form but heatcool it to solid. Or, that might be a secondary mining procedure to find solid pure proto.

 

 

Now that I think of it, they turn 'pure' protowater into that 'pure' metal by putting it in a centrifuge or something like that, right? Maybe protowater is a solution that contains the pure protometal that can be filtered out? Or maybe it's not really something so simple.


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#11 Online The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 02:53 PM

You guys realize that the island of Mata Nui wasn't made of Protodermis, right? The ground was part of the camo-system of the MU robot, there is nothing to imply that the ground was Protodermis. Remember, they would dig up other things like ore and lightstones (which might, technically be Protodermis, but, whatever). The Protodermis had to be retrieved by a sluice, so that would mean that it was mixed with other stuff. (Do you guys know what a sluice is? I had to look it up one day because it was bugging me.) The proto mined could have been pieces of the robot when it crash-landed onto the planet.


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#12 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 02:56 PM

You guys realize that the island of Mata Nui wasn't made of Protodermis, right? The ground was part of the camo-system of the MU robot, there is nothing to imply that the ground was Protodermis. Remember, they would dig up other things like ore and lightstones (which might, technically be Protodermis, but, whatever). The Protodermis had to be retrieved by a sluice, so that would mean that it was mixed with other stuff. (Do you guys know what a sluice is? I had to look it up one day because it was bugging me.) The proto mined could have been pieces of the robot when it crash-landed onto the planet.

 

 

Eeeeuh whole Mata Nui was created by a massive energised protodermis leak, so yes it is protodermis


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#13 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 03:20 PM

Well, the environment of it was shaped by that EP leak. The island itself was part of Mata Nui's camouflage system, so in both cases, it was made of protodermis. Just the seawater and some of the creatures were of Aqua Magna and so not made of protodermis.


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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 03:25 PM

Yeah, just to be crystal clear, Greg confirmed for sure that Mata Nui Island was protodermic. But we didn't really learn that until around 2004.

 

 

Now that I think of it, they turn 'pure' protowater into that 'pure' metal by putting it in a centrifuge or something like that, right? Maybe protowater is a solution that contains the pure protometal that can be filtered out? Or maybe it's not really something so simple.

Well, they purify the liquid protodermis, and it's still liquid then. I'm not sure how exactly they purify it. Anyways, then they send it to Ta-Metru where it's superheated, forming molten protodermis. Then this is sent to the diskmaking areas, and rapid cooling is apparently what actually makes it become solid (if you let it cool normally it will apparently remain liquid at room temp).

 

I theorized in my cyberclay topic that this is a code function in the particles; that it's programmed to sense that rapid cooling as the trigger for the solid version.


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#15 Online The Legendary TNT

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 03:29 PM

Yeah, just to be crystal clear, Greg confirmed for sure that Mata Nui Island was protodermic. But we didn't really learn that until around 2004.

 

 

 

Oh. My bad, I knew something about the island wasn't Protodermis since the Toa Metru had a hard time adjusting.


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#16 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 04:10 PM

Well, they purify the liquid protodermis, and it's still liquid then. I'm not sure how exactly they purify it. Anyways, then they send it to Ta-Metru where it's superheated, forming molten protodermis. Then this is sent to the diskmaking areas, and rapid cooling is apparently what actually makes it become solid (if you let it cool normally it will apparently remain liquid at room temp).

 

I theorized in my cyberclay topic that this is a code function in the particles; that it's programmed to sense that rapid cooling as the trigger for the solid version.

 

If it is a solution, then the particles that get turned into the metal could be the equivalent of the salt in real seawater. But if they could get pure protodermis from water, that leaves the question of why there were miners. I'd guess that although pure proto could be given certain properties, some properties are impossible or very difficult to attain from the base form, and so it would be easier to mine existing sources of those kinds of protodermis.

 

Since we had an official protodermis topic, do you think you'll make a new one?

 

 

 

Oh. My bad, I knew something about the island wasn't Protodermis since the Toa Metru had a hard time adjusting.

 

 

Yeah, it's probably the water you're thinking of. I don't think MU beings can drink Spherus Magna water, and anyway they couldn't think drink (derp typo :P) the seawater. I'm pretty sure they can consume Spherus Magna creatures and plants just as well as protodermic ones.


Edited by The Iron Toa, Dec 12 2012 - 04:11 PM.

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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 06:00 PM

If it is a solution, then the particles that get turned into the metal could be the equivalent of the salt in real seawater. But if they could get pure protodermis from water, that leaves the question of why there were miners.

Well, there are other things to mine for besides purer forms of protodermis. The matter-mimicking qualities of the other types give a wide range of possible reasons to mine, to look for certain materials. Just like mining in real life comes in a variety of forms for all kinds of different substances.

 

 

I'd guess that although pure proto could be given certain properties, some properties are impossible or very difficult to attain from the base form, and so it would be easier to mine existing sources of those kinds of protodermis.

And there you went and said what I said; I should really read the whole posts before replying. :P Anywho. Yesh.

 

Since we had an official protodermis topic, do you think you'll make a new one?

There doesn't seem to be a lot of need for official topics in general lately, but I'm not ruling it out. Most basics in terms of factlist type things can be found on BS01 anyways.

 

I don't think MU beings can drink Spherus Magna water

I'm something like 95% sure they can. (Fresh.) Not sure how that works, but the Metruans on Mata Nui had to drink it for a thousand years.


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#18 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 06:30 PM

I thought they relied on water from underground or meltwater from Mount Ihu. I also think there was a lake on Voya Nui that was important because it was their only source of fresh protowater. But then Voya Nui had ice too - maybe that was too dangerous to harvest.


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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 06:42 PM

I thought they relied on water from underground or meltwater from Mount Ihu. I also think there was a lake on Voya Nui that was important because it was their only source of fresh protowater. But then Voya Nui had ice too - maybe that was too dangerous to harvest.

 

Or too difficult. Ice is heavy, and the distance required to haul all that inland might have been prohibitive. 

 

It's also possible that the ice ring may have been frozen seawater. Undrinkable.


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#20 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 10:44 PM

That could be. So now I'm not sure either way if they could drink regular water.

 

Hm. I just suggested that the protodermic seawater had metallic components, but upon checking BS01 I saw that it's actually the refined version that has metallic traits. It's the stuff that's magnetized to form the chutes in Metru Nui. When it's heated, it turns into something like molten metal. It's already liquid, so that's an odd behavior. Before it reaches that point, I wonder if it boils like regular water, and if all protodermic freshwater does that or just the sort of water they prepare specially in Metru Nui.

 

I have a feeling Bonesiii's cyberclay theory would have a neat explanation for this.


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#21 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 12 2012 - 11:04 PM

That could be. So now I'm not sure either way if they could drink regular water.

 

Hm. I just suggested that the protodermic seawater had metallic components, but upon checking BS01 I saw that it's actually the refined version that has metallic traits. It's the stuff that's magnetized to form the chutes in Metru Nui. When it's heated, it turns into something like molten metal. It's already liquid, so that's an odd behavior. Before it reaches that point, I wonder if it boils like regular water, and if all protodermic freshwater does that or just the sort of water they prepare specially in Metru Nui.

 

I have a feeling Bonesiii's cyberclay theory would have a neat explanation for this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I doubt protodermic water boils like regular water, because there is no protodermic air.

 

Also, keep in mind that any "real" water the Matoran encountered would be seawater, aside from what rained down on the island itself. 


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#22 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 01:32 AM

I doubt protodermic water boils like regular water, because there is no protodermic air.

There's definitely protowater vapor, though. Tuyet controlled some in Many Deaths. Water Vapor and air are not the same thing, in this context.

 

Searching for the drinking thing was easy:

 

 

 

Matoran can only drink liquid protodermis, yes?

1) That is what they are designed to do, yes.

I was sure it was earlier confirmed they could drink real water, but apparently it was retconned. Of course, the nature of that water was retconned too at some point because Greg originally told me it wasn't real water. Anywho.

 

I also found some speculation around the point that it seems unlikely the Rahi could have survived just on liquid proto from wells, so perhaps there's an exception for them. Apparently Greg was not asked about this.


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#23 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 10:35 AM

Well, Greg said it doesn't normally rain in the MU, so if there are enough springs and wells to provide drinking water inside the Matoran Universe, maybe it's the same for the island of Mata Nui.


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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 10:57 AM

Well, it's entirely ocean other than that island, so realistically it should rain like mad. :P


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#25 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 11:18 AM

On the islands Mata Nui and Voya Nui, sure, but it wouldn't do any good if the rainwater was undrinkable. That would contaminate uncovered protowater sources too.


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#26 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 12:00 PM

Well, not if they were covered properly. You know, that makes me think of two things, though.

 

First, considering it's a camouflage system that was designed by the GBs, and their nature, it makes sense to imagine that they considered that beings might have to move to that island, and that might include dumb Rahi, so maybe they simply instituted a spring system. We know they did so with the Mangai's system, which is pumping molten protodermis (which starts out from the Silver Sea as protowater as I said), so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that there's a vast network of intentional springs that seem natural. Thus it wouldn't be hard for Rahi to find.

 

Second, we know they need to drink protowater, but do we know that normal water is dangerous to them in any way? My guess is it isn't. Intentional springs would be mostly protodermis at the source and for quite a ways after that. But even near the coast if it's mostly protowater, maybe they just send through the normal water without any reaction at all, gleaning the protowater particles from it.

 

I'd think this would especially be necessary for Ruki, Takea, etc.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 13 2012 - 12:04 PM.

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#27 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Dec 13 2012 - 12:15 PM

Good point. We've seen that Aqua Magna water isn't toxic to Rahi.


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