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I feel like people don't introduce themselves enough before posts like this, and it makes people think that they're somehow just crusading machines, desperate to spew social justice on people who just want to live their lives without being looked down on their beliefs, and I'm totally okay with that, so before we get started, hiya. I'm Ty. A bunch of you guys may know me because I'm a compulsive RPer in the BZPRPG and OTC. Some more still know me because I have a Tumblr I use like once a month (haha jk no one knows me on tumblr) A bunch of my friends know me because I'm a very pretty young man. Some of you don't know me at all, and that's totally okay. Thing is, I have a little bit of an anger problem. It doesn't come out often but, as anyone close to me will tell you, when I smell blood in the water, a different Tyler is born. I get volatile. I curse frequently. I throw statistics and papers like a baby flinging spaghetti bombs in Olive Garden and I won't let you breathe long enough to so much as mount an argument around them. Why not? Because I was born and raised in an environment that has allowed me the unique perspective of knowing what fights are worth fighting, and knowing people based off merit. I am a cancer survivor. My father was emotionally and occasionally physically abusive - and not in that copout way you use to get numbers at speed dates. I am bisexual, and I realized it partially because of this website - there's a straight guy on this forum (h i y a a a r o n) who I jokingly called my first love until sometimes I questioned whether I was really joking or not anymore. I was in Ambage for a year and a half, and I made many conservative friends. Their beliefs all made me incredibly uncomfortable. They have made me incredibly angry, make no mistake. You wouldn't know it by talking to me. I have an encyclopedia of pop culture references in my head and I'm the king of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. I play Cards Against Humanity with friends on the weekends. I tip waitresses 20%, I can flirt with my eyebrows, I spend ridiculous time on my quiff, Arrested Development is my anti-drug, and I put on my skinny jeans one leg at a time just like anyone else. But make no mistake. I am furious. People don't want me to be, and I can understand it - I was affectionately given the moniker 'The Oakland Mafia' by a BZP member I highly respect not too long ago, and I'm okay with that. People vanish from their keyboards when I challenge them on a point, and I'm okay with that. I've seen a couple people on this website use the defense that their beliefs are a product of their environment. And that's okay, actually - I'm completely cool with that. Because I am a product of my environment, too, and my environment has made me mad as ######. I'm mad now. Didn't mean to get mad, but I'm mad now. It all started with this, in Fishers' latest blog entry, My lecture for the night: Make no mistake, Roablin (and I plan on posting a link to this in the blog entry in question, because if there's one thing I have never done it's talk behind someone's back without the intention to shoot straight and say it aloud) I don't think you meant to offend anyone here. Your comments are innocuous enough; you looked at the status quo and followed suit, and I don't feel a thing against you specifically for it. Honest. I harbor anger, but not grudges. There's an innate difference in my mind; the worst thing I could do is delete you entirely from my memory banks and worldview, which I believe only serves to worsen the matter. So this is nothing against you personally. This is against what you're defending - a culture and environment that shapes negative worldviews in subtle, clever little ways in people who would otherwise totally be able to see what HH, DeeVee, Makaru (and other people who are totally quicker on the draw and smarter than me) fight for regularly, because while you yourself may not intend to cause harm, your beliefs certainly do. Remember what I said - I'm mad as can be, but I don't want to pummel you. I want to inform you, in frank terms, yeah, but terms that I would use and have used on several close friends before. It's what I would tell anyone. First off, I know this term is beaten to death, but I think it needs to be said over and over and over, not so it annoys you but because of the simple fact that people don't like to talk about: you can beat a million terms into the sands of time, but it rarely means you can beat down the system itself. What you are defending from your past writings is a patriarchy. The very notion that you used solely white males (presumably straight) males when until 2008 with the election of Barack Obama, we had nothing but cisgendered white men with heterosexual tendencies (with one notable exception; James Buchanan, people, look it up!) does nothing but indulge a status quo that is corrupt and derogatory to the core, and even dangerous; sexual and racial minorities are at greater risk of suicide, homicide, harassment, and incarceration by broken systems and broken social codes, and it is our job as a generation to begin to turn the tide. In 2008, we elected Barack Obama as U.S. President - and honestly, I think it's great that changed your worldview! It was meant to! For a country to, just a century and a half ago, go from human slavery to electing a biracial President is a huge accomplishment, and I'm really glad that it affected you. But that's just a baby step - it's only a start. You have to realize that the unspoken social rules that kept minorities like Barack Obama and strong, intelligent women like Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren out of office are still intact and out there today; when we reinforce the stereotypical image of the white man as the leader of the "free world," we're only breathing new life into those codes. But how does this relate to you, you ask? All you did was write stories, and they were purely for fun's sake, because you love writing. That's totally okay! I've been RPing for four years, and there's nothing on this site I love more (besides the people!) so I totally get where you're coming from. But you know the rough thing about the BZPRPG? I've been in it for four years, and in that time, I've seen: - Two gay relationships; both of which came about only in the last few months, and both characters were RP'd by the same character - Two lesbian relationships - One male-to-female transsexual involved in a relationship; one transsexual in general, actually And that's still a big problem, because while we just write about it, we write based on our environments and our experiences. And even if nobody ever sees it, the people who write the movies we watch, the shows we DVR, the books we read and rave about - they all were raised in the same constructs, and people do see their works and take inspiration from them. And then they show their kids. And then their kids show their kids. And it all comes back to what I was saying about breathing life into these tired, backwards notions. They're there; they've always been there; most of them were disguised, shown under different names and with different twists, but they're there, and they had impressions on all of us to some extent. That's where the saying "everyone is a little prejudiced" comes from. It's true! We can't help but be a little prejudiced! But it's part of the struggle to grow as people - it's our responsibility to overcome it so we can grow as people. You also said that race and gender shouldn't have impact on a person's decisions, but that, again, is basic human instinct. If a minority is picked on and abused for years, and then gets into power, why wouldn't they let their past experiences color their decisions and try to improve things? Who wouldn't try to make things better after working years being paid less than her male counterparts just because of her status as a woman; who wouldn't be bitter about being refused the basic human right to plan a wedding ceremony and see it through - something that is a lifelong dream of most people! - while their heterosexual friends are sending them wedding invites every year? How do you expect people to lie down and let themselves be kicked and spat on while never once implementing solutions to fix it? It's absurd! It's absurd and it's hurtful, and it's almost entirely subconscious in the day-to-day lives of most people. And what do I do all the time most people do when they feel offended, or hurt, or want to bawl their eyes out after a long day? Curl up with some Americone Dream and turn on the TV, or read a good book - two mediums where transsexual characters and even bi/homosexual characters are still sorely underrepresented, where the phrase "token minority" is still a thing, where characters like Catelyn Stark or Skyler White are hated or reviled for not stepping back a tick or two so that they can let the men in their lives make the decisions. The prejudice has already permeated our laws; as ordinary people, how can we allow it to seep into our entertainment, too? Is it so wrong to ask for a black Human Torch, or a female Doctor Doom, or a gay superhero in a Marvel film? Why can't we have a same sex relationship in the new Star Wars mythos? Why couldn't Michael Fassbender and James McAvoy at least share a bed in X-Men: First Class, I ask you? That chemistry was there and no one will stop me from saying otherwise! How does it make the lives and experiences of those characters any less realistic - and if you can't work with characters outside your normal worldview, why are you writing at all? But again, none of this is a slam on you specifically, Roablin - they're things I've wanted to get around to saying for a long time in debates and have never been able to for fear. But I'm not scared anymore. I'm just angry. Angry, and a little hopeful that someone will read this and understand what's being done wrong, and maybe think of ways we can fix it. We have a wealth of possibilities and talents that no other generation has ever had - we could be the first wave of a new beginning in society. If we let ourselves be. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go grab some ice cream. Regular cookie dough, unfortunately - out of Americone Dream. -Tyler Durden / Aegon Targaryen / Tyler St. Francis

Roablin, I have to take your first paragraph piece by piece, because it is a doozy. This is very much true. This is something that would be great if changed, because society is slowly moving away from that mentality. Society has men taking care of children while women work. We have women working while women take care of children. We have men working while men take care of children. We have single parents pulling dual-roles. Society is also slowly getting used to the idea that not everything is pivotal around the nuclear family. You don't have to have kids. It's not the most important thing in the world. Where your day-to-day life isn't centered around what you are doing to raise a child. Correct, up to the point where you use the word reality. See above for more. We have centuries of film telling these stories. 99% of the time. We can start focusing on other stories finally. Precisely. I too think it is ridiculous to make the guy the hero all the time. To have the male actors paid obscenely more than female actors. I agree that we need to work to change that ideal. Also, more generally speaking; Literally no one is making the argument that all stories all the time need to be 1:1. No one. The argument for representation is this: Write good women. Write strong women. Write vulnerable women. Write flawed women. Write evil women. Write incorruptible women. Just write more women.

Hahli Husky and DV are super great and know what they're talking about much more than I do, but I might as well try and add something here. Except you don't seem to realise that the reason there aren't more women in roles such as those is because of sexism? And that there would be much more women in work like that if women were afforded the same opportunities as men? And that the unequal ratio of men to women in media is a part of this problem? I get where you're coming from, but I think you're again missing the issue. Sure, in a perfect world, the ratio of men to women in any particular story wouldn't be such a huge deal. But where we are, the ratio of men to women in media and stories and whatnot is constantly skewed towards the men, so it's kind of a big deal? The problem is that an unequal ratio towards the men is the norm. And it really, really shouldn't be.

But we do believe so many lies fed to us. It doesn't make us helpless. Countless women, men, and other people believe the drivel that the media and other sources lay before us and ingrain in us. A lot of sources don't even realize the harm they're doing. Men come to expect things from women. Other women expect things from women. People shame women for not being some sort of norm. You know this; I can tell from this blog entry because you fight to be who you are. The struggle you have is real. Women damage their bodies and their lives trying to lose weight. Girls of color in our culture believe they are not beautiful because they are not white. They try to straighten their naturally curly hair. Women try to wear clothes that make them unhappy. They are shamed into speaking quieter and not laughing as loudly. They are told to "be like this so guys will like you". And it's good that you fight that. It's good that you decided to be yourself. But this doesn't mean all other women are going to do this. Too many of them don't even realize what is happening, and that's why we're having this problem. I've known so many girls and women who try to be what we are told to be, verbally and by implication. Shave your legs because you have to. Cover that face with makeup. Be cute. Be dainty. Be submissive. Be feminine. No man will want you if you don't. No one will respect you if you don't. I starved myself. I picked at my face until it bled trying to get rid of acne. I'm in therapy because I have anxiety and depression resulting from expectations that I should be a certain way "because I'm a woman". I'm not alone. I'm nowhere near being alone. Countless women have hurt themselves, hurt each other, been killed, settled for less, been denied privileges given to others, and ended their own lives over this stuff. But at the same time, there's an overwhelming voice that tells us something else. You shouldn't shave. You shouldn't wear makeup. Don't be cutesy. Be outgoing. Be a STRONG WOMAN who likes fighting and guns and "manly" stuff. Don't be what we told you to be, and you'll be praised as "not like other girls". This compliments some women by shaming the lifestyles and preferences of others. This is also very, very wrong. I copied this from something I can't share as a whole: The point isn't that we shouldn't do certain things because they're a stereotype. The point is that you need to be who you are and don't shame other people for being who they are. People in our culture seem very concerned with telling women what they can and can't be. That's the problem here. And like Pat said, we're gonna come across this stuff in our lives no matter what. We can be all they tell us, and they say we're trying to hard and we're mindless conformist bimbos. We can completely ignore it, and we get ignored or told to "freshen up", "smile", "reinvent our wardrobe", "don't speak up for ourselves". We can do our own thing, and we still get fussed at for "being or not being a certain way". Now, I'll get to why I'm saying all this on this entry. I don't like speaking up on things like this because I get nervous and have trouble expressing myself, especially on BZPower. Guys on BZPower have tried to shame and argue with me too many times, and also done the same to many other girls. But unless they're trans and lived through these struggles, they don't have that firsthand experience. They may accept what we tell them happens. Some of them see all this garbage at work in the world. They want to help. That's why DV and Makaru speak up. I always appreciate what they have to say. They've learned from women around them, such as myself, Nukaya, and Tufi Piyufi. You say you're speaking to an audience of guys, but to be honest, several women are reading this blog entry. They read the topic about more female characters in the next Lego movie. They love the idea of more women being represented. I know this because they're my friends. But why don't they speak up? I wonder if it's because of the backlash we've received, both here and in other faucets of our lives? In the end, yeah, the only one you can control is you. You have to go into this stuff being willing to let go and know that you're not going to change the entire world by yourself and in one go. But I'm not going to give up or fall into "all or nothing" thinking. I haven't changed the minds of plenty of people. But I have friends now who have watched me and what I say and support, and they understood and now stand beside me. Some of them are content creators who are writing excellent balances of men, women, and non-binaries in their works. Would that have happened if I hadn't been fighting and speaking out on my blog and other internet spaces where they could see? I'm not sure. Other, greater content creators have seen this huge outcry for equal representation. That's part of why we have the Lego Movie creators so ready to include more women in the first place. We shouldn't get angry over every single lie told to us, no. But I think getting fired up over feminism is a really excellent cause. Why? Hey, I've got another quote. We don't have to explode or lose our minds. I mean, in this entire post I'm not upset or angry. But as a woman, I want to speak up. My voice is important here because it's about the representation of women, the lack of which has discouraged and hurt me inside. I am passionate about my cause and ready to educate anyone willing to listen to me. And if people don't, okay. But I'll still speak out. I'll still speak up for equal rights and representation and a proper treatment of all women. We need to see more varied women in our media because it reinforces that we all exist outside the stereotypes and we're more than what people say we should be. There are just as many women in this world as men (I hear that it's more women than men actually but I'm not sure atm.) So why are there way more men in so many movies and comics and games? And why is this so when women and girls are close to half of the consumers of said media? If we can have something as "nonsensical" as a giant floating cloud city or mecha cyborg pirate with a live shark on his arm in a movie, then we can have something as "nonsensical" as more female characters, too.

I'm sorry I told the truth. I promise to be more careful next time : ( -Tyler

I mean, it's like putting a Corvette sticker on a keychain, shoving me out into the driveway, and showing me that you really gave me a Ford Pinto. Can't expect me not to vent. -Tyler

Yeah I saw them. What I said earlier about it was directed to each and every one. +1,000 mega bonus points to Mak.

I think part of the reason that society has less women in commercial jobs than men (and why by extension, the media depicts fewer of them) is because in traditional families, the woman will raise the children while the father earns the bread. This seems obvious to me, but some of you seem to dislike this reality. What is so wrong with this? Why should our society place a greater importance and emphasis on working in the field than on raising the next generation? I hope no one minds more references to Tolkien, but I feel that he really illustrates my points. The men are the warriors in LotR, but does that lower the importance of women? I think not, because they are the ones that raise the next generation. The men are essentially sacrificing themselves for a greater cause: the continuation of their race. And the women are an integral part of that cause. And of course, we see that women can excel in positions that men traditionally fill, such as when Eowyn kills the Witch King. However, I think it is clear that Eowyn is not more important than any other woman just because she can fight. Because she had no children, she was completely free in choosing her path, but the fact that she chose a nontraditional role does not make her "better" than the other women who stayed behind, it just means that she will be mentioned in history books. And that is the way of life.

The two are not as distinct as you wish they were. I am in no way saying that a story where a strong woman is outnumbered by men but wields the power of the narrative is a bad thing, but ratio is a substantial and important part of representation. Again, women actually outnumber men in the real world (though not by more than a few percentage points, the point remains). Yet you would never know that by looking at our fiction and media. For the representation of women in media to be both realistic and positive, women should function in the majority of stories at an equal ratio. Whether this is "realistic" for scenarios that involve military action or political power is irrelevant- media shapes culture, and culture shapes media. If more women are not just active, but powerfully present, girls and women can see themselves represented and feel that they even belong in the conversation. You're trying to separate ratio from representation, but the two are linked and need to be. Women should be able to see themselves represented equally, even in numbers, in their media. Because that's real life, women are everywhere. (Duh) I'm confused, are you saying that we have a "micronic influence" over media, or that media has a "micronic influence" over culture? Because while the first could be argued form certain point of views, I suppose, sociologically speaking the second idea is ridiculously absurd. Media has a massive and powerful influence on culture. It is, indeed, one of the most powerful forms of influence wielded in the world. If you think otherwise, you are at best naive and at worst deluded. Sociologically speaking, this concept is pretty well settled, which is why when companies, especially media companies, make these moves, and do so publicly and vocally, they should be publicly applauded. As for the first idea- you and I both have control over media. Though it's a small influence, sure, we have one of the most important things media conglomerates crave: our time and money. If we refuse to give troublesome media influences either of those things, they change. And as media changes, culture changes, and that in turn pushes media even further, which feeds the culture, etc. We have more power than you want to admit, and your apathy is alarming.

Just because you didn't seem to understand what I was saying there: the girls I was talking about are real live actual members I know who spoke about this elsewhere, and were too frustrated and afraid of backlash to respond to anything related to this discussion, not guests or people I figured exist. But yeah, BZP discussion is dominated by men. But there are definitely several women listening in, and I'm not just guessing at that. Sure there are assertive women in this world, just as there are many passive, aggressive, and passive-aggressive ones. But assertiveness is a set of tools, not a personality type, and even women who know how to be assertive may choose to keep silent in certain situations rather than risk someone on the internet being horrid to them or getting in to an argument with someone who just wants to shut them down. This is incredibly common around the internet and in our society as a whole, and sadly has tended to create a lot of passive women who'd rather not speak up. I used the "nonsensical" bit (notice the quotations I used up there) due to some people in the discussion saying that it wouldn't "make sense" to have a larger amount of women in certain media, which is funny because so much of the Lego movie didn't technically "make sense" in the first place, in a real world sort of way. That argument just baffles me to no end.

I guess the part that confuses us the most is you seem to be frequently advocating against stories and movies and media writing interesting and original women when you are one. That implication comes from a strong opinion (from what I have gleaned, anyway) that it's not really that big of a deal. And what we are trying to convey to you is that it really is. For example, my opinions are just piggybacked from the experiences of people I know and discuss these topics with routinely. Another example; the women in the linked topic who were arguing their case. You state that the integrity of the story should matter. Well clearly to a lot of people representation is an inseparable part of story integrity.

i back this really hard -Tyler

10/10, would read again. In fact, you've got me thinking about some things for a blog entry of my own. (Americone Dream is the best ice cream flavor and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.)

So I mostly skimmed this, apologies to those who made great arguments. A recurring theme I did notice, though, was a lot about being accurate to the real world and being accurate to real world gender ratios in various occupations. It's been replied to already but I simply had to get this off my chest; The real world is irrelevant. This comes with a clause; if you're going tout yourself on historical accuracy or somesuch then yeah probably probably is relevant. In your standard fiction, however, these things to not apply. Is the gender ratio 1:1 in an American big city police department, say, Chicago or Seattle? No, it isn't. If I go write a story about my own city, Wichita, and write about the WPD and introduce a 1:1 gender ratio in a department that certainly doesn't have it... yeah, I've messed with the real world. But it is fiction, and more often than not fiction is there to make some sort of point while being entertaining. Even if it is purely for entertainment purposes, the argument that depicting a police department with a 3:1 gender ratio or somesuch is alright because it's how it is in the real world is tenuous at best and simply false at worse. If you were writing a story about the hardships of a female officer in the force, then that ratio probably makes thematic sense. If you're just writing a cop story, then why not have a 1:1 ratio? It's a theme I see springing up a lot in all of this. People desperately defending the current ratios because it's how the real world is. The real world is a pretty terrible place, war, famine, pestilence, all sorts of nasty stuff. Fiction can comment on this, or it can provide an escape from it. Commentary requires some level of realism, though a competent writer can insert commentary in practically any story. Escapism requires the consumer to be able to really connect with the character. Is it impossible for one gender to connect to another gender? No, and I hope to live to see the day where the differences between the genders are negligible or nonexistent in popular culture and everyday life. For the world we live in right now, however, we have girls being raised in a society that propagates its stereotypes on them. They need someone to connect with, strong characters, weak characters, confident characters, nervous characters. Most importantly, though, they need characters that are front and center, that are there in the public eye. Female characters simply do not occupy this role, or when they do, they represent some stereotypical image. This image is not bad, but when it is the only image for girls to see, it's very problematic. There are exceptions, and in the modern day, progress is being made. Those exceptions are not the rule. The rule right now is that "woman" is its own character archetype. Having a female character is something special. It propagates the notion that while men are capable of being all these things, a woman being all these things is something odd, out of the ordinary. This idea is riddled all over the debate in this entry. Having a perfect ratio, advocating it, should not matter. This is not saying that the battle is meaningless, but that by simply being in opposition is meaningless. I do not mean to put words in others' mouths, but this functionally what the argument boils down to. We can run in circles all day long talking about the effects of media on society at large, realism in fiction, so on and so forth. The fact, though, that this debate exists at all represents the problem. Hmm. I do need to work on getting my points across better. The tl;dr of this all is that writing more female characters is good simply because it should not matter if your character is male or female, they should simply be a character. As such the resistance to a 1:1 ratio is puzzling. Appeals to reality hold no place in fantastical movies. If the Avengers had a 1:1 gender ratio, it would seem very silly to be crying about reality while they're fighting alien invaders. Even in real-world movies, like my previously mentioned cop show, reality influences but reality does not have to be the end all to be all demographics-wise. Contemplate this; up until 2008, all American Presidents had been white males. If someone in 2004 had made a show with a female President, or a black President, then this very argument about realistic ratios would apply quite well here. The profession of President of the United States had been completely dominated by white dudes, much like how police departments are dominated by men right now. This is not a strawman argument, this is not a logical extreme. This is simply the argument about reality, transplanted over. So yeah. A bit lengthier than I was hoping for. If I repeated previous dead arguments, my apologies. I just really needed to talk about this for a bit. Incidentally a 1:1 avengers casting would have been godly. I have a list right here of the roles. Also might be slightly counterproductive to the argument but yeah MakBoss, I argue for 1:1 ratios a lot.

There certainly is a lot of sexism in this world. I can definitely agree with this. But I still don't think we would see a huge increase in female police workers/militants if there wasn't any sexism. No matter how you want to approach things, men are "generally" stronger than women. This isn't always true, but men are built differently, and their interests are different. Because of this, I think that naturally, men are more capable for such jobs. I'm not saying that women aren't at all capable, I'm saying that because men are built differently than women, there are bound to be jobs that men are better at, and jobs that women are better at. It goes both ways. I think you're right. Lots of movies skew the ratio towards men. But there are good movies out there that have ratios like I mentioned. LoTr/The Hobbit movies certainly had more men than women, but the movies are still rock solid, and it's understandable why there are more men. Regardless, the movies still have strong female characters. Arwen, Lady Galadriel, Tauriel... (Thank you, Roablin, for initially using this example) Again, you're right. It shouldn't be this way, and I personally think it should change. But there are certain movies that are perfectly fine with ratios like 3:2, 4:2, etc. That's all I'm saying, and I think that's basically what Fishers is saying is well. I may be wrong though. -Rez

OK, yeah. I kind of live in an "internet vacuum" so to speak - I don't follow facebook, tumblr, etc at all. I also know that I'm not the only girl on BZP. Again, I'm not saying my attitude is right just because I have it. I'm just trying to understand why this keeps getting a big deal made out of it. Thank you for clarifying. It really helps. In terms of the Lego movie's genre, etc, its probably not going to hurt from having more female characters. But you also have to consider why they didn't have more female characters in the first film - there were reasons for that brought up in the topic as well. It really depends on the story you're telling. To this point and DV's first point, I agree with Reznas. The latter. I don't support this stuff at all, and it's been around since before I was born. If this lie gets killed, another, possibly more creative, one will surface in its place. It's just how this world works by my own common observation. I've already told more than a few people not to believe the lies circling around this topic, and that might help. But people will always believe lies (like this) because they want to, and that's just a fundamental aspect of the universe. You can make it so this lie is outdated and weird - maybe. Maybe not. But you will see others come up, and still more, and so on...why waste the effort? As HH points out, there are people who are hurt by this lie. But that's true of any lie, no matter if it has media influence or not.

Congratulations! =D Then he does it again. And again... A neverending series. Yesss! =D

It's a Hitman game, not a mafia game

You're not crazy. Ta-da!

I don't think ratio has to be important. Sure, there are more women in the world, but are there more women in a private detective's office? To represent that as such would be inaccurate. I think it can be agreed upon that the majority of police/detectives/etc. are men. That doesn't mean that women aren't capable of the job; in fact, there are quite a few policewomen out there. But the fact is, more men take up jobs in the police force, military, etc. Again, I think that ratio equality isn't as important as you're making it out to be. I certainly agree that a movie with 5+ guys with substantial roles and only 1 woman with an insignificant role is a bad one. But I see no harm in a movie with 3:2 men to women, or 2:3 men to women, or even 4:2 men to women. It really has to do with how each person is represented and how they interact with the other characters. As Fishers said, you can have a good story with one perfectly represented, strong woman and five other men, but if you have five men and a poorly represented woman, you ruin it. In my opinion, representation has to do more with character interaction than with ratio. Just my $0.02. -Rez

BEST...THING...EVER. -Rez

Can you imagine? "Hey guys, check this out" *goes on a weeklong rampage of delicately breaking the rules but not toooo bad* *goes on weeklong rampage of throwing money around, submitting news reports, helping folks out, writing essays for every post, and kissing feet* "Taa-daa!" Then they make a movie about the BZPower Member of Legend

What I would love to see is somebody lose all of their proto points without being banned And then earn everything back plus more to become a POBZPC

Nobody here is every going to argue that women are helpless little creatures that believe everything they are told about themselves. But one doesn't have to look past, well, themselves, to see how media representation of women (and men) has set up stereotypes and perceptions of both of these genders that are part of the cultural zeitgeist. Again, a ton of actual scholarly sources were posted in that topic, but you must have ignored them to be making the point you are making now. No matter how smart an individual is, society and culture are made of conglomerates and social movements made up of a social, shared consciousness. The conversation at hand has never been "are these stereotypes legitimate," because of course they're not. We all know that, because we are on here having this conversation. I know that the idea that all women are passive or submissive is garbage, because I only have to look two feet to my left and ask Maddison something and she will definitely refute that. Stereotypes are obviously not applicable to indviduals very frequently, and even when someone falls into a stereotypical interest group in one way, they fall out of it in another, as evidenced by Becca's post above. As Bryan said even further up, the problem here is that you are consistently seen to argue against the idea of greater inclusion in media, and it seems you reach deeper and deeper into the depths to come up with reasons why. You make decent points, but then you take those points to false conclusions. You're right, we can't force writers to stop producing these works that perpetuate false perceptions, roles, and representations of women, but we can and we should change the world around them so these works are the outliers and the ones viewed as weird and uncomfortable. And we do that by spreading education and by demanding the status quo change, and we do so by applauding, visibly, publicly, purposefully, the moments when big companies, big media moments, big characters, challenge that status quo themselves. Because if they can see that, yes, there is a market for this, that having a movie full of strong, smart, independent women who don't define themselves based on their relationship with a man, that this won't tank their profits, that this gives them a positive public perception, they will continue to move that direction. Yet here you are saying that striving for that is "a stack of illogic" which is both disgustingly dismissive and is, itself, a "stack of illogic". The world is set at an almost exact 1:1 ratio of men to women (with women globally having a slightly stronger lead currently), yet, again, men make up the majority of all power roles in the world. This is your world. Your entire post internalizes so much of that stuff it is ridiculous. All your "I'm not like the girl stereotypes" things are an attempt to prove yourself not a part of the "stereotyped girls" set-up by showing how much better you fit into traditionally male-dominated aspects of society. There's nothing wrong with those ideas or interests at all, whether male or female or intersexed or trans or whichever, but it reads like "I don't have these problems because I don't subscribe to femininity at all, and women who do are the problem" and there's some straight-up misogyny in there. This is your world. You are a woman who, at some point in time, is going to run into these problems in your life. People are going to assume you are weaker, dumber, more passive, etc, at some point in time. It will happen. And what we are trying to say is that not only should it not, but that part of making sure that this changes, that we can say to future generations that this is a thing of the past, is to increase visible recognition of women in power roles on media, because media is propaganda, because it does define the shared cultural consciousness, and by influencing that, we can change this. I debated going through and adding some more caps and exclamation marks, but I felt the point was made without them, just as it was the first time.

Well, the problem with stereotypes has a lot to do with the way people think about them. There's a big difference between saying "lots of women like horses" or "lots of men like sports" and saying the same thing about ALL men and women. And if a story is big enough in scale, it's easy for the latter to be implied if the story supports the stereotype again and again without offering any sort of counterpoint. Furthermore, stereotypes become problematic if writing tends to defy stereotypes about one group without doing the same for the other. This is where gender ratios in media can be problematic. So many stories (including BIONICLE, Hero Factory, and, until recently, Ninjago) feature a heroic team of boys with just one "team girl". The boys on the team will have diverse personalities, while the girl will tend to fit into one or two archetypes, without much room to explore female diversity. This leaves female fans with fewer female characters to relate to. And while society is progressing to the point that people are comfortable identifying with a character of the opposite gender, it's simply not fair that girls should so often be forced to do so if they want a character who really reflects their personality, while boys have a wide range of male characters to choose between. Obviously I agree with you that certain stories could not be told with female characters in equivalent roles. After all, if you want to write a story about a society or a part of society where one gender is absolutely rejected (for instance, Disney's Mulan), then having equal male and female representation in equivalent roles could completely undercut the story's themes and messages. At the same time, as long as male and female characters are unevenly represented in media, it is important that storytellers not use these justifications as an excuse not to bother with creating diverse female characters. That starts to cut close to old-school gender prejudices in other fields, like business (for which women were long considered unfit due to stereotypes about them being unassertive, fickle, and prone to mood swings). And you shouldn't fabricate a justification where it is not supported by real life. BIONICLE is a good example. Yes, gender ratios in the BIONICLE universe were incredibly skewed, but the official story's reasons for this were perfectly arbitrary from a real-world perspective. There's no storytelling reason that elements like Air and Ice couldn't be female, or why genders had to be tied to elements at all. It was purely a matter of toy sales: it was well-known that action figures of female characters didn't tend to sell as well as action figures of male characters, so fewer female characters were introduced. I would say this was an understandable marketing decision, but a very poor storytelling decision, since there was no need to create flimsy rules to justify imbalanced gender ratios when it could have just represented the genders unevenly (like in the Glatorian, Ninjago, Chima, or Hero Factory sets) without imposing rigid restrictions that would affect future official characters and fan-created characters alike. Just because you can come up with a story where an overwhelmingly male cast is justified doesn't mean you should when there are so many other kinds of stories to choose from.

So Shadow Flaredrick is running a Hitman game and we need people. Come and Sign up folks. You won't be disappointed. Bionicle Hitman VI: Final Hour! Guns, Explosions, and hoardes of enemies that no one can count! And for a limited time if you sign up now I will promise not to use the Icepick of Doom! Once in a lifetime offer

*throws confetti* And it only took me seven years

Here shall remain a compilation of the best game-related quotes that I discover from the Games & Trivia forum (since that is the game forum I spend the most time in). I shall, of course, bump this entry whenever I find a suitable number of new quotes. Please note that if need be, I shall shamelessly steal these quotes from the signatures of those who discovered them first. Let us begin! From Bionifight Ultimate

Basically all of this. Much agree. I'd just like to point out that good representation is starting to grow. Granted, there's much less of it than there should be and stereotyping is still rampant, but I think the media is beginning to get better about it as a whole, slowly but surely. It's not all bad. (I'm not saying/trying to imply you said/implied that, just pointing it out. Covering my bases is all, first time I've really participated in a BZPower "firestorm," I don't want to offend anyone =D)

Word of advisement: I am reading this blog entry's comments. At this point, I'm not aware of anyone being disrespectful of each other (and I appreciate the attitude of respect so far), but if it does happen such comments will be edited or deleted, and if I get a lot of it this is going to be locked. With that said, Tyler, your comment was toeing the borderline. I understand at this point that you were calling Roablin's idea "bigoted", not Roablin himself, but please be more careful when using such language in the future, as that may offend some people and be interpreted in ways that you didn't intend. Thanks. Carry on.

Tyler, I can count the number of times something I read turned my soul into an emotional dynamo and actually made me stop and think about life on exactly one hand. As of now, I officially have to use two. (also, why all the hate on cookie dough, it's wonderful! ;~; )

I love you. I really do.

Very well then, I shall continue to dismantle your castle.

Heck no

You should attribute the signatures somewhere.

I wouldn't really call it taste, I would just call it bigoted. -Tyler

I just did a bit of research on the wage difference between males and females in the acting industry. Until today, I wasn't aware that female actors made so much less than males. I consider myself more informed now, and I would completely agree that that should stop... except that they are paid ridiculously high amounts anyways. The articles I found only described actors and actresses that earn tens of millions. I would be inclined to reduce the wages of male actors to lessen the wage gap, but I don't really want to ask that someone be payed less than they are just to even a score. Does anyone know if there is a significant wage gap between lesser known actors and actresses? If it exists among people who actually struggle to make a living, than reducing that would be a cause I could get behind, especially because I know several girls who are going into acting. I totally agree with you there. I just think it's important that we don't treat traditional roles like they are a bad thing, even though they result in fewer women taking a limelight in the media. @Humva You make some interesting points. But the reverse of your argument holds true by the same logic, and I think your metaphor with the president clarifies this. If a character is a good character regardless of gender, than it doesn't matter at all what the ratio is. Most great books that I read follow this logic, which is why I am a bit puzzled by efforts to provoke change where it is not necessary. For example, before our current president, I would have made any president in a fictional story a white male unless I had a specific reason not to. If making the president a black women would add something tangible to the narrative, be it amusement, intrigue, drama or whatever, then of course I would give him those attributes. Otherwise, my natural preference is to make him standard in ways that audiences would expect. You can consider this a difference in tastes, but I usually build stories from the ground up, changing only one or two things in reality to make it my own universe but then discovering where the story naturally flows from there. And because I believe that women are just as important as men, I don't object to putting genders where they would logically find themselves. I just don't find a universe without women in the direct limelight to be a universe without important women. Perhaps this is because I myself do not wish to be in the limelight of our universe. I get what you are saying about total escapism, but that is just a difference in tastes, with me preferring the the meticulously calculated fantasy of Tolkien. I am not against changing more, I am just puzzled by the need for it.

Rez - Nothing. It's just an internet expression. Too bad, Razcal. Go home. Roablin - You're right. +400 MBP. Makaru - You're also right. Have another +400 MBP, courtesy of my ever-expanding account. Humva - But if the real world is irrelevant, why would this whole representation argument matter in the first place? Couldn't writers write whatever gender ratios they wanted, since the real world didn't matter?

What exactly can these +400 mega-bonus points buy? Better yet, can I sell them? Got a bit of Razcal in me... (Chima references for the win, yeah?) -Rez

thank you so much omg!!! this game holds a lot of nostalgia for me (even more than MNOG, since i didnt play that until years after it was released)

You're not crazy! (At least, about this!)

Purple. Yes. Much want. (I don't even play Metroid, but supported anyway.)

That's really, really good.

Don't let that stuff make you give up, ya hear? You might not be able to get there right away, but if you work for it and take time to build up a portfolio and skill, you will get there. Does it really matter if it happens a year from now, or five years from now, or ten? When you do get there, you're gonna be so glad you didn't give up. It's not just about degrees and money, any career is about making connections and getting lucky, and definitely determination. Set yourself some goals, and keep at it. You'll make it eventually ^^ You've got a looong, long life ahead of you. You don't have to rush anything You will make it, if you keep at it. And even if you don't, you could find out there's something else that piques your interest, and learn a lot of good things along the way You're gonna get a lot of "no"s in life, don't be afraid to say "no" back, especially to those urges to give up. You deserve this, eh? Just figure out the best way to go about it and figure out what's holding you back and work on it. There was a girl in my block last semester who dropped out halfway through the current semester 'cause it was just too demanding and she didn't have what it takes to keep up and succeed-- at least, she thought so, I think her work was pretty great and she just had to keep working at it, but she had a crazy commute and is terrible with computers and has learning issues and also insomnia and blah blah blah a lot of obstacles in her way. She decided it would be best to take a break and get help and I think it was really brave of her to take matters in her own hands and deal with her problems, and yeah. I think I lost my track a bit her but I think my point is basically never give up, and everyone takes things at their own pace, but she still has talent and ambition and is just way too hard on herself and I know she'll definitely succeed when she comes back and tries again ^^ And I think that can relate to your situation. Just do your best! Don't stress it so hard and don't be afraid of taking a fresh start You still have growing to do as an individual, you never stop. Let life take its course, and take advantage of it

The scythe is only for mafia games... the icepick is hitman.. I have an arsenal of weapons

This is a great offer, people. Vox and his Icepick are dangerous, man.

...Next name change acquired!

@DeeVee: I at least skim-read the articles in question, and I did address those points - in a PM to the person who cited them, because B6 kindly asked that the discussion be removed from the topic. The first was about a theory of hedgemony, the second was about relevant stats that showed there are less girls in stories. I did take them with grains of salt though. The first was talking about a theory that media elites communicate ideas to the masses and thereby control them. It also talked about alternative media that provides a counterpoint. But eventually the alternative media becomes mainstream - unless the public at large has an opposition to it that doesn't erode. Unless it's actually true. The public at large has an opposition to truth. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation either, since if the public welcomed truth, they would rail against all these lies and the writers who produce them would be out on the street already. The second article talked about statistics of women in films in 2008. I don't need stats to tell me that women get misrepresented in film and on TV. This doesn't account for other mediums, such as books and music, which sometimes portray women in a realistic light. Again, that doesn't mean that this isn't a problem. I do acknowledge that it might apply to the discussion in the topic, because it was talking about a film. But one realistically represented film isn't going to change those stats. Hollywood will still produce junk. One outlier doesn't change the status quo. My point in that topic was the ratio of male-female characters is a subordinate point to integrity and needs of the story you're writing. The ratio of the characters is actually an independent point to representation. Consider: Story 1: One girl, who is a genius creative problem-solver, becomes a private detective and hires five guys to assist her. She keeps all five of them at arm's length and solves several important mysteries that have an impact on the world around her. Story 2: Five girls who are "society conforming" vie for one guy's attention at a party. Which story portrays women in a better light? But I move beyond the realm of hypothetical: Consider the Mentalist, for example. The ratio is 3:2 guy/girl ratio for the main cast, but all of the women in the story are portrayed realistically. Don't confuse ratio for representation. Oh please. I don't own the world, and I certainly don't control it. The odds of me obtaining world-altering power...aren't that high. Realistically, though, I'm going to die, and all the control I get, if I do get it, will end. I'm just passing through. You agree that we can't change the writers, but you think we can change the world? The world is harder to change than a few writer's minds. People aren't going to change for certain just because of this post on a blog or a few more girls in a brickfilm. There's a chance (possibility) that a few people might think a little different, but that's it. You're exaggerating your own impact to change things. NO. no no. This was what I was afraid of. I didn't mean that at all. I was trying to explain why I sometimes have trouble understanding these discussions. I even explained near the end that being so different has its disadvantages. There's nothing wrong with any of the "stereotypes" I listed or people who follow them. I'm really no better than anybody else, and my uniqueness is not something to look down on other people because of. It's just how I am. It has its assets and liabilities, like any other aspect of myself. It has already happened. I usually prove them wrong or shrug it off or both. What they think doesn't change what I can do. Micronic influence that doesn't warrant all this fuss, but whatever. @HH: I'm not going to repeat myself again, as you and DV's points overlap a bit, but I'll address a few things. There is lies on both sides of this argument, yes. I just haven't addressed the other side of the argument because it gets into stuff that breaks the rules here. At least, I'd have to lean on that to make a good argument. Also it's way off topic. Indeed. Boingy. I would like a society where everyone is free to embrace their true preferences and make choices based on that. Or just the truth in general. Agreed. Sorry to hear that. Although I can't really relate, sadly. I enjoy arguing and refuse to be intimidated. But me =/= everyone. I get that. This blog isn't visible to guests. And I'm realistic - the majority of BZPower is guys, so I naturally tailor my response to that audience. I barely even think about it anymore. But if the idea that girls are supposed to be passive is myth, girls are a lot more assertive than you make them out to be. It's a lie. Don't believe it. But you can only speak for yourself and I can only speak for myself. The truth is varied and probably somewhere in between. Remember the end to the first film? Finn's sister is being introduced into the story as a storyteller, and she will probably introduce more female characters into the narrative. It's not nonsensical. It makes perfect sense. All of this IMO started with some bad wording in a news article that implied that that director wanted to throw girls in for the heck of it. I don't think that's true - I think the director recognized the above and brought in the female characters accordingly. But that's just me.

I'm not like the female stereotypes, either. I'm actually a dog. Actually, I was amused by your stereotype breakdown and wanted to fill it out for myself. Stereotype: "Girls don't like Lego."Me: *was really into Bionicle but kind of appreciates LEGO from the side nowadays* *mostly buys Friends and Mixels sets because I'm poor and they're cute* *also wanted more girls in the Lego Movie* Stereotype: "Girls like fashion."Me: *loves clothes* *is becoming a lolita so as to wear frilly poofy dresses with bows* Stereotype: "Girls like animals, especially horses."Me: *desires kittens you have no idea* Stereotype: "Girls are less likely to enjoy courses in science and math, and rarely do they program."Me: *hated math in school, enjoyed science, did some programming in college but eh* *wasn't for me* *loves programming games tho* *but is an amateur* Stereotype: "Girls are soft."Me: *doesn't have to wear lotion* *ever* *also I just shaved* *feel my legs* *so smooth* *blue belt in taekwondo tho* Stereotype: "Girls like jewelry and painting their nails, etc."Me: *me too omg* Stereotype: "Girls can't use logic."Me: *spills your fruit* *excellent comeback* *10/10*

The "stack of illogic" here is the idea that in a society with a near 1:1 ratio of men to women, nearly all roles of power, be it political, economic, religious, etc, are dominated by men, and that this unequal representation is reinforced through media outlets, and that people are actively arguing against fixing that. Also, this entry just reinforces something that has driven me crazy for years now: BZPower members do not use the word "logic" correctly. The other thing here, is that you have supremely missed the point. Congratulations, you are a special snowflake who isn't like the other girls. You are smarter and better and cooler and less likely to fall for media manipulation! Except, that none of that matters when it comes to the conversation being had in that topic. The conversation is about the role of women and their representation in media. Considering all the scholarly sources actually posted in there, it would be a "stack of illogic" to say that there is not a problem with the stereotypying of women in modern media, and to say that the representation of women in media is problematic. There is so much more to say, but I'm so angry about this nonsense in here that I can't even put these things into words right now. Suffice to say you've missed the point entirely.