Do Spherus Magnans have Moral Light?

[NuvaTube]

What it says on the tin. I imagine they have some form of palpable morality, but are they affect-able in the same way the MU beings are? What would happen if they got attacked by a Shadow Leech?

Edited January 21, 2014 by NuvaTube

[sunflower]

Being completely biological beings, or at least naturally without all of their cybernetic implants, I don't believe that they would have any sort of "Moral Light" system as the MU species did. Unless, of course, they got an implant that specifically gave them a "Moral Light" system similar to what MU species have. Though I don't know if that would be an advantage to have or not.

 

As for what would happen if they got attacked by a Shadow Leech, I think that it may either do nothing at all (as the leech has no tangible energy to feed off of), or the leech may drain a different biological energy instead. Perhaps some sort of neural energy that's so common within science fiction, not exactly targeting the being's moral's specifically, rather where they manifest themselves.

 

No matter what, it certainly would be interesting to see exactly how a Shadow Leech would effect a normal biological sentient.

[Click]

Berix: Hey Tarduk, I have a little friend for you!

 

Seriously though, this is an interesting question. I would assume that the do technically, but it doesn't manifest as an energy level like in Biomechanical beings. I would say it is closer to just how average people chose good or evil actions rather than choosing evil because their light is gone. Moral light as an energy seems exclusive to Biomechanic beings.

 

If an Agori did get attacked by one, I bet it would bite, but then just fall off and/or die without the energy.

[Aanchir]

Yes, the inhabitants of Spherus Magna have moral light. I don't know why that's even a question. The entire reason moral light is treated differently from elemental light in the BIONICLE story is because it's not some mysterious magical energy or power. Rather, it's a measure of a character's psychological inclination towards good or evil. With that in mind, any being that could be said to have the potential for moral decision-making would have some measure of moral light or shadow.

 

Would a Shadow Leech work on them? Hard to say. Then you start getting into the question of how the biological process of the Shadow Leech's feeding relates to the effect it has on its targets. If it's purely a psychological process, then it should work just fine. But if the process demands any kind of biological connection, whether that be a bite, a mere touch, or a preference for a particular kind of victim, then that introduces a level of physicality to the process and the possibility that the non-protodermic biology of the Spherus Magna inhabitants would be incompatible. In fact, if there's any kind of biological requirement to the process, it even raises the possibility that Shadow Leeches wouldn't work on species other than Matoran.

 

If a Shadow Leech could drain an Agori or Glatorian of their moral light, there would be one key difference from Matoran affected by the Shadow Leech: they would not gain elemental shadow powers, since elemental traits and powers are not inherent to their species.

[Collector1]

I doubt it, since they weren't created with natural elemental powers unlike most of the MU species.

[Aanchir]

I doubt it, since they weren't created with natural elemental powers unlike most of the MU species.

But moral light (the "light" that Shadow Leeches drain) has absolutely nothing to do with elemental powers. All Matoran have it, regardless of their elemental affiliation. And presumably, so do characters who lack inherent elemental powers of any kind like Brutaka and Axonn.

 

Think of it this way: would the Toa Nuva have been immune to Shadow Leeches when the Bohrok-Kal had stripped them of their elemental powers? Of course not, that'd be silly. They'd become evil Shadow Toa, although they might not gain elemental shadow powers until their Nuva Symbols were returned to them.

[Collector1]

 

I doubt it, since they weren't created with natural elemental powers unlike most of the MU species.

But moral light (the "light" that Shadow Leeches drain) has absolutely nothing to do with elemental powers. All Matoran have it, regardless of their elemental affiliation. And presumably, so do characters who lack inherent elemental powers of any kind like Brutaka and Axonn.

 

Think of it this way: would the Toa Nuva have been immune to Shadow Leeches when the Bohrok-Kal had stripped them of their elemental powers? Of course not, that'd be silly. They'd become evil Shadow Toa, although they might not gain elemental shadow powers until their Nuva Symbols were returned to them.

 

Oh, thanks for clarifying that. It may have a Takanuva effect on them if they were light drained.

[LordofBionicles]

Yes, but their moral light must be different than that of the MU inhabitants. With Matoran their light and shadow are strictly separated thanks to them being biomechanical beings and because it's a fiction story, but perhaps with Agori their light and darkness are more philosophically separated, like i'ts not so easy to tell them apart the same as with humans.

 

And about the Shadow Leeches I´m going to say they don't work on organic beings simply because they are mutated Kraata, which only work on biomechanical beings with a programming and A.I

[Master Inika]

It's possible that the acquisition of Shadow powers is unrelated to the loss of the victim's normal element. Both Vican and Vultraz, according to BS01, could fire Shadow bolt, presumably the same way Radiak, Gavla, and Kirop could, even though they had much more subdued elemental manifestations before.

[bonesiii]

It's an interesting question, and I must say I'm surprised to see some apparently already have strong opinions on it. The way I see it, there's two basic possibilities, and at least at first glance, no obvious way to know which might be the case:

 

1) Inner light/shadow is a system invented by the Great Beings.

 

2) Inner light/shadow is natural to the sapient species of Spherus Magna and the Great Beings imitated it in their artificial lifeforms, just as they imitated brains, arms, lungs, etc.

 

And then regardless of which is the case, no easy way to tell whether Shadow Leeches would have an effect. Even if option #2 is the case, perhaps Shadow Leeches can only attack protodermic moral light (although that seems unlikely). Who knows?

 

 

Note: I'm going to use the label "inner" light/shadow, not "moral." Morality seems to be part of what came with having full sapience; freewill, and the GBs didn't know they had achieved that. So whether they invented it, or just imitated it, they probably didn't think of it as being about morals. That's how it came out, but the point is, if the SM beings have something like it, it isn't necessarily focused on morality. The Matoran's version could be an unintentional moral focus, while the GBs thought it was something else they'd missed that didn't have that, and the purpose they intended for the light/shadow in Matoran is what the actual purpose of the hypothetical inspiration for it in the SM beings. Plus there's the fact that they intended the "outer" Shadow element to be natural to Makuta, which would seem odd if inner shadow meant evil to them.

 

Being completely biological beings, or at least naturally without all of their cybernetic implants, I don't believe that they would have any sort of "Moral Light" system as the MU species did. Unless, of course, they got an implant that specifically gave them a "Moral Light" system similar to what MU species have. Though I don't know if that would be an advantage to have or not.

A couple problems with this reasoning. First, we don't know that Matoran brains aren't organic. It's a question Greg and the story team in general consistently declined to answer. But the strongest evidence seems to point to organic. Krana are naturally accepted as "brains" to the Matoran, and they are fully organic. Kraata are organic, and have brains. And the entirely robotic (minus Krana) Bohrok are stated to not be alive in the sense Matoran are. So the inner light/shadow system appears to be part of their organic brains.

 

Second, the bigger question to me would be whether it's exclusive to protodermis. Being completely organic is not the main difference -- there are beings like Kraata made of protodermis who are organic too. But being entirely made out of an artificial substance, that's pretty big.

 

In my retelling, I interpreted the light/shadow to be related to a binary code in the protodermis (also mentioned in an old theory of mine, though I'm now using a different version of protodermis, explained in-story and in a theory topic I plan to launch coinciding with the story). If I'm right about that, it probably implies SM beings don't have the equivalent. But that still wouldn't disprove whether Shadow Leeches would affect them somehow. (My explanation has the brains as organic, BTW, but still operating in a fundamentally different way than SM brains, so clearly AIs even though sapient AIs.)

 

Incidentally, Shadow Leeches themselves are entirely organic (being mutated Kraata), but protodermic, and since they feed on the inner light, it would seem to disprove the idea that being all organic matters for that. (But gives evidence that being protodermic might.)

 

Yes, the inhabitants of Spherus Magna have moral light. I don't know why that's even a question. The entire reason moral light is treated differently from elemental light in the BIONICLE story is because it's not some mysterious magical energy or power. Rather, it's a measure of a character's psychological inclination towards good or evil.

Even if we grant this premise for sake of discussion, that doesn't prove that Spherus Magna beings have that same energy.

 

But the premise seems flawed. For one thing, beings drained of inner light manifest "outer" Shadow powers. And Umbra, drained of all inner shadow, got Light powers. It is elemental, capable of manifesting actual elemental powers, and is "mysterious magical energy." But one tied into their psychology. So it seems more like the opposite of the middle sentence in this quote is the case. It can also be drained with a power and used as energy to feed upon -- that's the whole reason Shadow Leeches drain it in the first place, after all.

 

Also, it's often called "moral" light, but the canonical explanation is not that simple. The one thing that's clear is that a being whose balance is totally thrown out of whack toward shadow is clearly evil.

 

But wait -- Umbra is totally drained of Shadow, and he isn't perfectly moral. He's just as messed up but in a different way, and Greg confirmed that. Obsessed with a rigid pattern of honor, so much so that he will refuse passage even to the actual good guys. The "moral" thing is in the balance. So to say "light and shadow is good and evil" here is not accurate. And even someone with a balance, which is most, only gets the freewill to choose whether to be good or evil. So the balance simply grants moral freewill. Either kind of imbalance creates polar opposite types of "bad". And again, the GBs probably didn't think of it in those terms at all.

 

None of this is necessarily relevant; whatever the inner light is, it could be copied off of a natural equivalent in Agori. But we shouldn't assume so; it isn't confirmed.

 

With that in mind, any being that could be said to have the potential for moral decision-making would have some measure of moral light or shadow.

This is certainly true, but "moral light or shadow" in this statement is not necessarily directly related to the inner light/shadow the topic is asking about. That can be just a mostly poetic description of what their motivations are. But this light/shadow is clearly a substance (energy, not matter, and affecting psychology, but not necessarily being psychology itself).

 

Then you start getting into the question of how the biological process of the Shadow Leech's feeding relates to the effect it has on its targets. If it's purely a psychological process, then it should work just fine.

I'd agree with that, but it seems clear it is a draining of the inner light energy. Which appears to be the very same energy as elemental light, or closely enough related to easily transform into it. So it seems it can't be purely a psychological process. It's more like, having the balance of the two opposing substances, or having just one or the other, affects psychology, much like how hormones will affect ours, but the hormone itself is just a substance (in that case matter).

 

No reason the story team couldn't have had the Shadow Leeches "feed" psychologically on poetic moral light, but I'm saying it seems like they didn't choose to go that route. (And if they did, I'm not sure 'stealing' a psychological state could keep a biological leech actually alive; it sounds more like they literally feed on the energy, using it to survive as we do food.)

 

There is a psychological component, though; a barrier is made by the Shadow Leech's attack, and BS01 calls that psychological. Yet, it can be broken with the physical vibrations of sonic energy from the Klakk, apparently. So psychological in this case probably means neural connections, which are physical, and the Klakk will cause physical brain damage in that area, disabling that mental programming, allowing the normal mental programming to take over and bring back the balance. Could be wrong; it's a confusing subject.

 

But moral light (the "light" that Shadow Leeches drain) has absolutely nothing to do with elemental powers.

I don't see how having the one drained and the other actually manifesting those elemental powers could be "absolutely nothing." If anything that implies it's the very same elemental power. Just operating inside the brain instead of outside the body, affecting psychology instead of carving Pakari statues or making red-glowing fists appear from your chest.

 

And presumably, so do characters who lack inherent elemental powers of any kind like Brutaka and Axonn.

Think of it this way: would the Toa Nuva have been immune to Shadow Leeches when the Bohrok-Kal had stripped them of their elemental powers? Of course not, that'd be silly.

Vortixx do not have normal elemental powers either; they're like Brutaka or Axonn, yet Roodaka was able to learn how to tap into her inner shadow and manifest Shadow powers. So presumably Brutaka or Axonn could too. Even the powerless 03 Nuva probably could have if they knew how. (So, the Nuva would clearly not be immune because they still have that element-related inner light/shadow.)

 

By contrast, the SM species have apparently only ever been given elemental power by it being added to them (in the case of the Element Lords, and what the Ignika did later), or with the power being in their weapons in the Core War. MU beings apparently thus have two elemental powers dormant inside them while in the balanced state, but they can come out of them if they know how. Brutaka/etc. were made as part of a universe intended to have elemental powers. But the SM beings weren't. (Of course, we could get into the issue of Annona/Psionics... But in general.)

It's possible that the acquisition of Shadow powers is unrelated to the loss of the victim's normal element. Both Vican and Vultraz, according to BS01, could fire Shadow bolt, presumably the same way Radiak, Gavla, and Kirop could, even though they had much more subdued elemental manifestations before.

Not unrelated; the power that is manifested in the case of an imbalance overrides and blocks any normal elemental powers. Not sure if that answers what you're asking but yeah.

[fishers64]

*goes to Greg dialogues*

4- Do Agori or Glatorian also have the power to create rhotuka or is that ability limited to mu inhabitants?
4b- The same but for inner light or darkness acces

4) MU inhabitants
4b) Same answer.

They may have it, but it's clear that they can't access it like Roodaka. If they can't access it of themselves I doubt a shadow leech can get to it.

7- Do Zyglak also have inner light and Shadow?
b- Same for Frostelus?

7) Yes

It would seem that inner light/shadow is in all protodermic beings, at least those who are sapient.

That's all I've got.

There is a psychological component, though; a barrier is made by the Shadow Leech's attack, and BS01 calls that psychological. Yet, it can be broken with the physical vibrations of sonic energy from the Klakk, apparently. So psychological in this case probably means neural connections, which are physical, and the Klakk will cause physical brain damage in that area, disabling that mental programming, allowing the normal mental programming to take over and bring back the balance. Could be wrong; it's a confusing subject.

I thought it was just an energy barrier that sonic vibrations would smash. Like a reservoir of energy that your mind feeds off of, and there's two passages in which the energy travels. The shadow leech would just suck the light energy out of the resevoir, and block the passage that allows it to return. Then you would have too much shadow energy, and it would come out as a power.

Edited January 22, 2014 by fishers64

[Katuko]

I agree with bonesiii - there is a marked physical power that results from the draining of moral light and/or shadow. It is clearly a reservoir of sorts, and it was a major plot point that Takanuva only had a dwindling supply of light left (both moral and elemental; if they are even separate) to fuel his elemental power with, because it would not recharge anymore.

 

I also agree that there are two real options: Either the GBs entirely invented the light/shadow system for their creations as a way of balancing law vs chaos (or something), or they created an artificial version of their own. Personally I don't think they have an actual, tangible light/shadow balance like their creations do. That would imply that Glatorian, too, can learn how to use light/shadow powers without any external input, and I believe it's been confirmed that they only have powers if gained from an external source.

 

It's an interesting question, but not something we can confirm 100% in any direction, because there is no information about it.

[sunflower]

 

Being completely biological beings, or at least naturally without all of their cybernetic implants, I don't believe that they would have any sort of "Moral Light" system as the MU species did. Unless, of course, they got an implant that specifically gave them a "Moral Light" system similar to what MU species have. Though I don't know if that would be an advantage to have or not.

A couple problems with this reasoning. First, we don't know that Matoran brains aren't organic. It's a question Greg and the story team in general consistently declined to answer. But the strongest evidence seems to point to organic. Krana are naturally accepted as "brains" to the Matoran, and they are fully organic. Kraata are organic, and have brains. And the entirely robotic (minus Krana) Bohrok are stated to not be alive in the sense Matoran are. So the inner light/shadow system appears to be part of their organic brains.

 

Second, the bigger question to me would be whether it's exclusive to protodermis. Being completely organic is not the main difference -- there are beings like Kraata made of protodermis who are organic too. But being entirely made out of an artificial substance, that's pretty big.

 

In my retelling, I interpreted the light/shadow to be related to a binary code in the protodermis (also mentioned in an old theory of mine, though I'm now using a different version of protodermis, explained in-story and in a theory topic I plan to launch coinciding with the story). If I'm right about that, it probably implies SM beings don't have the equivalent. But that still wouldn't disprove whether Shadow Leeches would affect them somehow. (My explanation has the brains as organic, BTW, but still operating in a fundamentally different way than SM brains, so clearly AIs even though sapient AIs.)

 

Incidentally, Shadow Leeches themselves are entirely organic (being mutated Kraata), but protodermic, and since they feed on the inner light, it would seem to disprove the idea that being all organic matters for that. (But gives evidence that being protodermic might.)

 

I meant "organic" in the sense that Spherus Magna species are naturally occurring life rather than having been created by the GBs. The reasoning being not so much that Skrall, Agori, Glatorian and such do not possess Inner Light/Shadow (to use the slightly more clear label) because they are organic, but rather because Inner Light/Shadow is a system created by the GBs to differentiate roles within the GSR. Seeing as MU Species probably would not need "morals" as we know them, as they were designed to simply keep the GSR running, and not start building the societies that they did, the Inner Light/Shadow could separate the "builders" and the "destroyers". (To use an example previously discussed in terms of Light and Shadow.)

 

Basically, I'm using the first scenario that you posted above;

 

1) Inner light/shadow is a system invented by the Great Beings.

I also think that once we find the role of Inner Light/Shadow within the GBs' microtech creations, it'll allow us to better answer the question of whether it is inherently natural and just a copied system, or something completely new created by the GBs. And then whether or not a Shadow Leech would have any affect on Spherus Magna species.

Edited January 22, 2014 by gRAViTiC dUbSTEp