TOK Power?

[Pomegranate]

We've got a whole new story officially started, and the focus is on promotional products from over a decade ago. Can't we let it go? The unofficial consensus for the last 12 years has been that it is powerless, why that needs to be changed now is beyond me. Greg has better things to do. The original 42 powers were all assigned by Greg back in the day, we can assume the ToK was left unassigned for good reason. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Pomegranate

[IcarusBen]

I don't get why people are so opposed to canonization. If you don't like it, then just ignore it!

[Jobber]

I doubt Greg's gonna reply, let alone see my question amongst the sea of others. Looks like he hasn't replied to anything in a while.

[Dorek]

I don't get why people are so opposed to canonization. If you don't like it, then just ignore it!

Not to turn this into one of the canonization debates, but people have given plenty of reasons why this argument doesn't really hold up. It's fine to be pro-canonization, but if your only inclination is "it can be ignored by people who don't like it" as a plus, that's not an effective way of arguing the point.

 

Anyway, I'm sure there's a quote by Greg somewhere where he says it's just a promotional item with no purpose. There have been plenty of those, and insisting they need to have purpose is just bizarre.

[Ektris]

We've got a whole new story officially started, and the focus is on promotional products from over a decade ago. Can't we let it go? The unofficial consensus for the last 12 years has been that it is powerless, why that needs to be changed now is beyond me. Greg has better things to do. The original 42 powers were all assigned by Greg back in the day, we can assume the ToK was left unassigned for good reason.

It's not even just that it's powerless...

 

This thing literally doesn't exist in the story! You could even make the case it's not even a proper collectible item since you have to rip a shoe apart just to get at it. It was decoration in the shoe and nothing more.

 

I'm also positive he has been asked about it before too, as Dorek said. And the answer(s) would have undoubtedly been that it is nothing.

 

There are most definitely a good reasons for "anyone to think of this as wrong" - see any of the many, many recent discussions regarding canonization and recent attempts. I haven't seen a single one presented here for why it is right. So your sass isn't getting you anywhere.

 

~|ET|~

[Munty]

I don't get why people are so opposed to canonization. If you don't like it, then just ignore it!

 

You CANNOT ignore canon. That's what canon means.. It is undisputable fact which cannot be ignored or interpreted in any way except the one given. That is why many people are against the rampant canonisation that we see in Bionicle right now. Having every last tiny detail canonised leaves us literally nothing to embellish or expand upon. We can't include official characters in fanfics because every single second of their existence is written down in a blow-by-blow timeline and then canonised by Greg for NO REASON and with NO BENEFIT to anyone at all... (This is a general example, not to be taken literally. Though I imagine it is probably true...)

 

Canonising everything just makes the story flat and 2-dimensional, removing any element of creativity that once existed. The Toa Mangai DID NOT need canonising. All of their Kanohi and weapons DID NOT need canonising. Why can people not just use their imagination and have the Mangai be however they imagine them to be? Would it make their MoCs or fiction any less enjoyable for the rest of us? But now, throw in the canon and everyone who wants to build or write them in the future will have to fit their work into a significantly smaller box than before or be told by dozens af canoneers that 'he's wearing the wrong mask' or 'his power is wrong' or 'she's actually left-handed'. 

 

Why?...

Edited January 19, 2015 by Munty

[Irrie]

 

 

On the contrary, let's canonize the shoes too!

 

 

 

_{^{(yes I'm joking)}}

 

Can't you just imagine a Rahkshi running through the landscape of Mata Nui, wearing Nike shoes???

 

Their feet do kind of look like shoes... 

[IcarusBen]

 

I don't get why people are so opposed to canonization. If you don't like it, then just ignore it!

 

You CANNOT ignore canon. That's what canon means.. It is undisputable fact which cannot be ignored or interpreted in any way except the one given. That is why many people are against the rampant canonisation that we see in Bionicle right now. Having every last tiny detail canonised leaves us literally nothing to embellish or expand upon. We can't include official characters in fanfics because every single second of their existence is written down in a blow-by-blow timeline and then canonised by Greg for NO REASON and with NO BENEFIT to anyone at all... (This is a general example, not to be taken literally. Though I imagine it is probably true...)

 

Canonising everything just makes the story flat and 2-dimensional, removing any element of creativity that once existed. The Toa Mangai DID NOT need canonising. All of their Kanohi and weapons DID NOT need canonising. Why can people not just use their imagination and have the Mangai be however they imagine them to be? Would it make their MoCs or fiction any less enjoyable for the rest of us? But now, throw in the canon and everyone who wants to build or write them in the future will have to fit their work into a significantly smaller box than before or be told by dozens af canoneers that 'he's wearing the wrong mask' or 'his power is wrong' or 'she's actually left-handed'. 

 

Why?...

 

 

Oh, boy! 

 

Guys, before I start, I better close the door here or we're going to get an internet backdraft. 

 

Personally, I could care less about canonization. However, Greg opened his Ask Greg forum for a reason. He wanted more canonization, so he tasked us with coming up with questions to answer. If he says the TOK is non-canon, okay, then, fine. If he says it's Kraata-Kal, then he has a reason for wanting to be Kraata-Kal! If he says it has the power of Cookie Dough Bending, then he has a reason. 

 

The benefit is that we've learned something new about the world and Greg can continue the story he's poured 14 years of his life into. If he, at any point, says that he will stop canonization, I'll be fine with that. As of now, he wants us to bring him questions and ideas. He won't be stopping anytime soon, as far as I can tell, but that doesn't stop you from changing things in your fanfictions or MoCs. Again, minor canon has to be abided by in most cases, but fanfiction isn't really one of those cases. That's the great thing about fanfiction, if you don't like something, you can fix it. Didn't like the ending of a story? Write your own! Don't like that Character A ended up with B when he should've picked C? Write them a shipfic. 

 

I don't like certain things about the new Gregcanon, but that's why we have fanfiction; to expand upon and sometimes overwrite established stories and characters.

 

Okay, well, if I haven't accidentally started a flame war, incurred the wrath of the mods, destroyed the forum or worse, destroy the entire Bionicle community, then I think I can open this door again.

Edited January 19, 2015 by IcarusBen

[Dorek]

 

 

I don't get why people are so opposed to canonization. If you don't like it, then just ignore it!

 

You CANNOT ignore canon. That's what canon means.. It is undisputable fact which cannot be ignored or interpreted in any way except the one given. That is why many people are against the rampant canonisation that we see in Bionicle right now. Having every last tiny detail canonised leaves us literally nothing to embellish or expand upon. We can't include official characters in fanfics because every single second of their existence is written down in a blow-by-blow timeline and then canonised by Greg for NO REASON and with NO BENEFIT to anyone at all... (This is a general example, not to be taken literally. Though I imagine it is probably true...)

 

Canonising everything just makes the story flat and 2-dimensional, removing any element of creativity that once existed. The Toa Mangai DID NOT need canonising. All of their Kanohi and weapons DID NOT need canonising. Why can people not just use their imagination and have the Mangai be however they imagine them to be? Would it make their MoCs or fiction any less enjoyable for the rest of us? But now, throw in the canon and everyone who wants to build or write them in the future will have to fit their work into a significantly smaller box than before or be told by dozens af canoneers that 'he's wearing the wrong mask' or 'his power is wrong' or 'she's actually left-handed'. 

 

Why?...

 

 

Oh, boy! 

 

Guys, before I start, I better close the door here or we're going to get an internet backdraft. 

 

Personally, I could care less about canonization. However, Greg opened his Ask Greg forum for a reason. He wanted more canonization, so he tasked us with coming up with questions to answer. If he says the TOK is non-canon, okay, then, fine. If he says it's Kraata-Kal, then he has a reason for wanting to be Kraata-Kal! If he says it has the power of Cookie Dough Bending, then he has a reason. 

 

The benefit is that we've learned something new about the world and Greg can continue the story he's poured 14 years of his life into. If he, at any point, says that he will stop canonization, I'll be fine with that. As of now, he wants us to bring him questions and ideas. He won't be stopping anytime soon, as far as I can tell, but that doesn't stop you from changing things in your fanfictions or MoCs. Again, minor canon has to be abided by in most cases, but fanfiction isn't really one of those cases. That's the great thing about fanfiction, if you don't like something, you can fix it. Didn't like the ending of a story? Write your own! Don't like that Character A ended up with B when he should've picked C? Write them a shipfic. 

 

I don't like certain things about the new Gregcanon, but that's why we have fanfiction; to expand upon and sometimes overwrite established stories and characters.

 

Okay, well, if I haven't accidentally started a flame war, incurred the wrath of the mods, destroyed the forum or worse, destroy the entire Bionicle community, then I think I can open this door again.

 

(off topic, but can people stop acting like having an opinion would be destroying the fanbase somehow? We're not that weak. I think.)

 

Greg is on the Ask Greg topic (I don't know if it was actually his idea or not, but regardless) to dialogue with fans. He is not there specifically to be the seal of approval on headcanon. It just so happens that it's the thing a lot of fans (or some, at any rate) are fixated upon, and he goes with it. Most of the questions he takes on are actually just storyline questions that people need help with understanding, which is actually the primary purpose of the topic.

 

Greg did not open the topic specifically to approve what Tahu had for lunch today, and I've mentioned elsewhere that using the topic specifically for that is a waste of everybody's time.

 

"Canonization", at least these days, is different from worldbuilding, and is different from learning about the story itself. The TOK is not learning anything new about the story (since it was never there!), it's a perspective that a fan thinks should be canon. These are two different things; it does not devalue the idea as a headcanon, and if Greg approves it, then cool beans whatever. But Greg doesn't have a "reason" for wanting us to think that, since the idea didn't exist until some nutter came up with it two days ago.

[Munty]

 

 I could care less about canonization.

 

That means you do care (at least a little)

 

Oh, boy! 

 

Guys, before I start, I better close the door here or we're going to get an internet backdraft. 

 

Personally, I could care less about canonization. However, Greg opened his Ask Greg forum for a reason. He wanted more canonization, so he tasked us with coming up with questions to answer. If he says the TOK is non-canon, okay, then, fine. If he says it's Kraata-Kal, then he has a reason for wanting to be Kraata-Kal! If he says it has the power of Cookie Dough Bending, then he has a reason. 

 

The benefit is that we've learned something new about the world and Greg can continue the story he's poured 14 years of his life into. If he, at any point, says that he will stop canonization, I'll be fine with that. As of now, he wants us to bring him questions and ideas. He won't be stopping anytime soon, as far as I can tell, but that doesn't stop you from changing things in your fanfictions or MoCs. Again, minor canon has to be abided by in most cases, but fanfiction isn't really one of those cases. That's the great thing about fanfiction, if you don't like something, you can fix it. Didn't like the ending of a story? Write your own! Don't like that Character A ended up with B when he should've picked C? Write them a shipfic. 

 

I don't like certain things about the new Gregcanon, but that's why we have fanfiction; to expand upon and sometimes overwrite established stories and characters.

 

Okay, well, if I haven't accidentally started a flame war, incurred the wrath of the mods, destroyed the forum or worse, destroy the entire Bionicle community, then I think I can open this door again.

 

I think the things you're talking about in that post are the things I personally have the biggest problem with. Things like 'Gregcanon', 'he has a reason', 'He wanted more canonization'. Greg is NOT Bionicle, he's just a man! Yeah sure he's the man behind the story but he doesn't just snap his fingers and 'make it so'. He was working for Lego under their instructions and there were other members of the team as well let's not forget. The comment I take biggest issue with tthough is the following;

 

 

 

The benefit is that we've learned something new about the world and Greg can continue the story he's poured 14 years of his life into. I

 

The fact is, we haven't LEARNED anything at all. We've just been TOLD, and those are very different things. And more importantly, BIONICLE IS NOT GREG'S STORY! It belongs to Lego, every last tiny little piece of it. That's how it works, they own the rights to every single word Greg has ever written because he was just a man doing a job. Don't take this the wrong way, I don't dislike Greg and I think he was/is a great writer. The point is, Bionicle finished and he just never really stopped working on it. Sure it's largely down to fans asking him questions but I have a very large suspicion that he loves answering these questions as it must make him feel like he's still working on the line and that was clearly something he loved doing.

 

The point is though, he's not still working on the line. The line ended and so did any say Greg had in canon at that point. Logically (and legally) speaking, nothing Greg said once the line was discontinued is actually canon at all. Unless there is something I'm unaware of, Greg was no longer the official voice of Bionicle after the sets stopped selling. Though I know the story and website continued a while, was that on Lego's behalf or did he keep doing that off his own back because he wanted to tell the whole story they had planned???

 

Either way, I'm of the opinion that Greg Canon is no more valid than any other form of canon and personally I think post 2011 'Greg Canon' is basically worthless. It's all just a bunch of fans asking largely uniportant or irrelevant questions about things we really don't need to know. Greg then answers because I imagine he enjoys still being so massively involved in the Bionicle community and whatever he says becomes LAW for some reason.

 

I remember another topic about the fromation of Voya Nui where one of our resident archivists mentioned that a fan theory that made a LOT of sense was actually denied by Greg but to this day he still hasn't offered up any alternative answers. What so he's happy to canonise small Rahi that were pictured in the corner of a comic one time but unwilling to clarify a HUGE plot-point around whihc a whole year of the story revolved? 

 

Enough of a rant, I hate this needless canonisation. I think that's fairly obvious. But what I hate more is the Bionicle community's blind faith in Greg despite the fact that his opinion is arguably no more valid than anyone elses these days. Especially when many of the questions he answers are essentially constructed on the spot. It's not like he's letting us peek inside a decade old Bionicle story bible, at things which were decided years ago but never revealed. He's essentially making it up as he goes along, but somehow because it's him who's doing it, that makes it canon... Ridiculous.

[Ektris]

Oh, boy! 

 

Guys, before I start, I better close the door here or we're going to get an internet backdraft. 

 

Personally, I could care less about canonization. However, Greg opened his Ask Greg forum for a reason. He wanted more canonization, so he tasked us with coming up with questions to answer. If he says the TOK is non-canon, okay, then, fine. If he says it's Kraata-Kal, then he has a reason for wanting to be Kraata-Kal! If he says it has the power of Cookie Dough Bending, then he has a reason. 

 

The benefit is that we've learned something new about the world and Greg can continue the story he's poured 14 years of his life into. If he, at any point, says that he will stop canonization, I'll be fine with that. As of now, he wants us to bring him questions and ideas. He won't be stopping anytime soon, as far as I can tell, but that doesn't stop you from changing things in your fanfictions or MoCs. Again, minor canon has to be abided by in most cases, but fanfiction isn't really one of those cases. That's the great thing about fanfiction, if you don't like something, you can fix it. Didn't like the ending of a story? Write your own! Don't like that Character A ended up with B when he should've picked C? Write them a shipfic. 

 

I don't like certain things about the new Gregcanon, but that's why we have fanfiction; to expand upon and sometimes overwrite established stories and characters.

 

Okay, well, if I haven't accidentally started a flame war, incurred the wrath of the mods, destroyed the forum or worse, destroy the entire Bionicle community, then I think I can open this door again.

 

Highlighted a very important item in  your argument here.

 

Because it, as the opening line and basis for which everything else is built upon, invalidates it entirely.

 

Greg absolutely in no way, shape, or form, created that topic to make more story. I don't even know how you reached that conclusion. The topic was simply not made with that intent. The name alone tells you what it truly is for - asking him questions about what already exists. That is not equivalent to requesting something be canonized.

 

~|ET|~

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ektris

[IcarusBen]

 

 

The benefit is that we've learned something new about the world and Greg can continue the story he's poured 14 years of his life into. 

 

The fact is, we haven't LEARNED anything at all. We've just been TOLD, and those are very different things.

First off, Greg is the guy in charge of canonization. I don't know who died and made him king, but the point is that he is. That, as far as I'm aware, is the official stance of both BS01 and BZP. I could be wrong about that, but let's hope I'm not.

 

If I am right, then learning and being told are the same thing. If I tell you, say, that Great Britain is formed from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and you didn't know that, you were both told and have learned that fact.

 

Finally, yeah, I screwed up. I should've said "couldn't care less." I'll give you that one.

 

To Ektris, while it may not have started for canonization (so, yeah, screw up there) it's pretty much either used for either canonization or it's used for asking the same "how do you feel about Bionicle ending/Bionicle reboot/HF/Ninjago/etc. etc." or, more often than not, canonization.

[Jobber]

I think more people need ask. (I'm pretty sure Greg just answers the first questions he sees at the end of the forum.)

Gonna post my question in greater depth next time so it has a higher chance of getting seen.

[Irrie]

It just so happens that it's the thing a lot of fans (or some, at any rate) 

 

Actually, more fans approve of canonization than those who disapprove. Just look at the statistics for the canonization polls. More votes yes than no. This argument is stupid, and the anti-canonization crowd needs to hurry up and accept the fact that they are the minority.

[Dorek]

First off, Greg is the guy in charge of canonization. I don't know who died and made him king, but the point is that he is. That, as far as I'm aware, is the official stance of both BS01 and BZP. I could be wrong about that, but let's hope I'm not.

His approval is required, yes, but that's a far cry from being in "charge". If nobody asked him, there wouldn't be anything canonized. That's on us.

 

 

If I am right, then learning and being told are the same thing. If I tell you, say, that Great Britain is formed from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and you didn't know that, you were both told and have learned that fact.

The difference here is that those things have happened in history. It's impossible to create a 1:1 analogy, but it would be like saying "I asked a renowned historian if George Washington had a wooden nose too and he said 'sure why not'". These things didn't "happen" and there is no evidence of them having happened, but they can be retroactively applied.

 

To Ektris, while it may not have started for canonization (so, yeah, screw up there) it's pretty much either used for either canonization or it's used for asking the same "how do you feel about Bionicle ending/Bionicle reboot/HF/Ninjago/etc. etc." or, more often than not, canonization.

(I'm not ET, but that's k)

 

Again, that's on us. The fans are the ones with that hangup. It's purpose is to ask Greg about the story, and people have twisted that into another canonization thread, but that's certainly not what it's for.

 

 

It just so happens that it's the thing a lot of fans (or some, at any rate) 

Actually, more fans approve of canonization than those who disapprove. Just look at the statistics for the canonization polls. More votes yes than no. This argument is stupid, and the anti-canonization crowd needs to hurry up and accept the fact that they are the minority.

 

In this forum, yes, but the demographics are (and in my opinion, should be) vastly different for the LMB. Part of the issue at all, at least in the recent discussions, is that it is actually just a few people asking these things in the LMB, because there's crossover, resulting in a lack of oversight or overall community voice in the process.

 

Painting it as a "minority vs majority" issue does a disservice to the fandom in general.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Dorek

[Munty]

First off, Greg WAS the guy in charge of canonization. I don't know who died and made him king, but the point is that he is. That, as far as I'm aware, is the official stance of both BS01 and BZP. I could be wrong about that, but let's hope I'm not.

 

If I am right, then learning and being told are the same thing. If I tell you, say, that Great Britain is formed from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and you didn't know that, you were both told and have learned that fact.

 

Finally, yeah, I screwed up. I should've said "couldn't care less." I'll give you that one.

 

Fixed that for you... Whatever Godly powers were apparently bestowed upon Greg a long time ago, I'm pretty sure it stands to reason that since Bionicle was cancelled he no longer has the power or permission to continue creating new canon. As far as permission goes, I imagine Lego just doesn't care as they clearly don't tell him to stop but it has this HUGE effect on the fanbase and it's so frustrating and unnecessary. I agree, you're right that BZP and BS01 and every other Bionicle fandom around, idolise Greg and hang off his every word. That's exactly what I'm saying is WRONG and it needs to stop before it gets any more out of hand than it already is! 

 

Your point on telling/learning is very logical in the given example. But what I was trying to get at is the fact that most of what Greg 'tells' us is stuff he's litereally just made up himself AS he was writing the reply. So a better metaphor would probably be someone telling you that France Spain and Italy are also known as the Trinity of Western Europe. They're telling you something you didn't know before and technically it's NOT wrong because they have just created that fact and so it is now known by that name. Only by one person but that's enough to make it true. You aren't learning anything though, just being told.

 

THAT is what I have issue with. People are asking quesions that don't need answering and BECAUSE they don't need answering, even the great and powerful Greg HAS NO ANSWER! But people still want to know for some reason... So he'll make something up, tell them and then it's DA LAW! Look at the Mangai polls for example, and I think this is a great example but please correct me if I stray as I wasn't really involved (because I hate everything about those topics!) There were a great deal of topics and polls regarding weapons and masks and such of the Toa Managi. We, the forum users would answer said polls with what mask or weapon we thought seemed best for the Toa being discussed. The option with the most votes (I imagine something like a few dozen, a TINY percentage of Bionicle fans and GIGANTIC misrepresentation of the community at large) will 'win' and then go off to Greg who sits on a pile of Golden Hau and metal Krana and proclaims "yay I telleth unto ye that the Toa of ridiculousness will from this day forth wear the mask of absurdity and it shall be written into unbreakable canon that his weapon is the staff of poking and his trainers are by Nike". And half of the Bionicle fanbase rejoices and the other half loses just a little more faith in them. 

 

Recently though, Greg received a mask choice that he had suggested would be ok, given to us at BZP for a vote and then received back as a winner. What did he do? He rejected it... Because the fanbase had made a decision that HE DIDN'T LIKE, he rejected it... All the Greg fanboys are going to come in and tell me that 'it was a bad choice that he didn't mean to include' or something ridiculous as I believe it was stated that this mask was intended to be unique? Or something... But I don't care about that. He rejected an idea that was made by the fanbase and do you know WHY he got away with it? Because the fanbase has NO SAY IN WHAT IS CANON. Do you know what else? NEITHER DOES GREG!

 

He only has this apparent 'power' because we let him keep doing it and do you know WHY we keep letting him do it? Because we WANT him to and apparently a bunch of us NEED him to. For what purpose? And to what end? Who really benefits from the Mangai getting canon weapons? Who cares if the TOK has a power? Why do we need names for every last living creature on Mata Nui? 

 

We were given the CORE STORY by the writers and then allowed, nay, expected to embellish and expand upon it with our own fiction, artwork and theories. Another great example of canon gone wrong is the fact that something like 40-odd fanmade MoCs were made into certified dark hunters. That is ridiculous. The majority of them are HIDEOUSLY ugly and almost every single one of them introduces a new species to the MU with no kind of story at all. How can they canonise a set without also canonising the race he is part of, their culture and their homeland? Yet noone cares about this so it stays out of canon. We all know though that asking Greg would result in these facts being canonised too. He'd google a map if the MU, pick one of the southern continents and say "boom! he lived there but it was destroyed by piraka or visorak or something. Next question..." Why not just leave these ugly, pointless creations where they belong, forgotten on the shelves of the people who made them. 

 

I say we need to start undoing some of the damage that AskGreg has done to Bionicle, not strive to worsen the situation by throwing ever more pointless questions at him and expecting him to actually care about the answer he gives us. WE are the Bionicle community now and there are THOUSANDS of us! Can we not navigate for ourselves now without relying on Greg every step of the way? It's like we're asking him for directions despite having a sat-nav in full view. Why?!

 

The grammatical point was a reference to the Wierd Al Song "Word Crimes" I'm not really that picky

 

TLDR; of course it's too long, look at the size of this thing. I can't imagine anyone will read all of this post once they see how long it is! I'd urge you though, if you have strong feelings about the ongoing canonisation of Bionicle, either way, you should give this a read. It would also be nice to find someone who agrees with me of course but I won't hold my breath!

[IcarusBen]

 

First off, Greg IS the guy in charge of canonization. I don't know who died and made him king, but the point is that he is. That, as far as I'm aware, is the official stance of both BS01 and BZP. I could be wrong about that, but let's hope I'm not.

 

If I am right, then learning and being told are the same thing. If I tell you, say, that Great Britain is formed from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and you didn't know that, you were both told and have learned that fact.

 

Finally, yeah, I screwed up. I should've said "couldn't care less." I'll give you that one.

 

Fixed that for you... Whatever Godly powers were apparently bestowed upon Greg a long time ago, I'm pretty sure it stands to reason that since Bionicle was cancelled he no longer has the power or permission to continue creating new canon. As far as permission goes, I imagine Lego just doesn't care as they clearly don't tell him to stop but it has this HUGE effect on the fanbase and it's so frustrating and unnecessary. I agree, you're right that BZP and BS01 and every other Bionicle fandom around, idolise Greg and hang off his every word. That's exactly what I'm saying is WRONG and it needs to stop before it gets any more out of hand than it already is! 

Un-fixed it. Or is it re-fixed it? Unrefixed? Whatever.

 

Point is, because GregF is the head writer, and obviously Lego hasn't bothered saying "no," then Word of God is in full play here. You say isn't Bionicle anymore. The reverse is true, he wasn't Bionicle before, but now he's the authority. Now, it's his story. He's the only member of the story team still working on Gen1. If Lego hasn't said no yet, then it's not exactly a huge leap in logic to assume that they haven't intervened because they don't want to. Until Greg quits or Lego says stop, he'll keep canonizing things.

 

Think about it; isn't it better to have them and not need them then to need them and not have them?

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Anyway, I'm sure there's a quote by Greg somewhere where he says it's just a promotional item with no purpose. There have been plenty of those, and insisting they need to have purpose is just bizarre.

 

Well well well! This is what I find most interesting out of this whole debate!

 

Maybe if someone finds that quote we can lay this idea to rest (where it belongs, really) since it's become more complicated than necessary.

 

Greg absolutely in no way, shape, or form, created that topic to make more story. I don't even know how you reached that conclusion. The topic was simply not made with that intent. The name alone tells you what it truly is for - asking him questions about what already exists. That is not equivalent to requesting something be canonized.

 

I think both Icarus and ET have a point.

 

The primary purpose of Greg starting that topic in the Lego Message Boards was to communicate with fans of the old Bionicle storyline.

 

But Greg didn't forget that the folks at BZP loved to canonize all sorts inane things, so I imagine that he expected that upon his return to the Bionicle community he'd get pelted with canonization questions sooner or later. He probably didn't necessarily want more canonization, but he expected it. And it's nice that he considers the suggestions.

 

Is it fair to ask Greg to canonize a stupid promo Kraata out of the blue? Not really, unless you also suggest a very good scenario for which it can be used (like the Kraata-Kal idea).

[Munty]

 

 

First off, Greg WAS the guy in charge of canonization. I don't know who died and made him king, but the point is that he is. That, as far as I'm aware, is the official stance of both BS01 and BZP. I could be wrong about that, but let's hope I'm not.

 

If I am right, then learning and being told are the same thing. If I tell you, say, that Great Britain is formed from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and you didn't know that, you were both told and have learned that fact.

 

Finally, yeah, I screwed up. I should've said "couldn't care less." I'll give you that one.

 

Fixed that for you... Whatever Godly powers were apparently bestowed upon Greg a long time ago, I'm pretty sure it stands to reason that since Bionicle was cancelled he no longer has the power or permission to continue creating new canon. As far as permission goes, I imagine Lego just doesn't care as they clearly don't tell him to stop but it has this HUGE effect on the fanbase and it's so frustrating and unnecessary. I agree, you're right that BZP and BS01 and every other Bionicle fandom around, idolise Greg and hang off his every word. That's exactly what I'm saying is WRONG and it needs to stop before it gets any more out of hand than it already is! 

Un-fixed it. Or is it re-fixed it? Unrefixed? Whatever.

 

Point is, because GregF is the head writer, and obviously Lego hasn't bothered saying "no," then Word of God is in full play here. You say isn't Bionicle anymore. The reverse is true, he wasn't Bionicle before, but now he's the authority. Now, it's his story. He's the only member of the story team still working on Gen1. If Lego hasn't said no yet, then it's not exactly a huge leap in logic to assume that they haven't intervened because they don't want to. Until Greg quits or Lego says stop, he'll keep canonizing things.

 

Think about it; isn't it better to have them and not need them then to need them and not have them?

 

 

Un-refixed it for you XD

 

This could just be me. But Greg is NOT the head writer now is he? I didn't think he was even officially involved in Bionicle anymore. Gen 2 I mean... In which case there's a whole ACTUAL team of people who now supersede him as they are actually working on Bionicle again while he is an advisor I think? I'm not sure on this because I'm sure he's still working for TLG but I'm not sure in what capacity.

 

Either way, if your sole argument is 'Greg is fine to just keep going until someone tells him to stop' then you're kind of missing my point. Dorek made the same point actually while I was busy writing my essay. The problem is not that Greg doesn't stop answering these pointless questions. The problem is that people refuse to stop asking them...

[IcarusBen]

I never said Greg was the Gen2 head writer, now did I. Also...

 

 

 

First off, Greg IS the guy in charge of canonization. I don't know who died and made him king, but the point is that he is. That, as far as I'm aware, is the official stance of both BS01 and BZP. I could be wrong about that, but let's hope I'm not.

 

If I am right, then learning and being told are the same thing. If I tell you, say, that Great Britain is formed from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and you didn't know that, you were both told and have learned that fact.

 

Finally, yeah, I screwed up. I should've said "couldn't care less." I'll give you that one.

 

Fixed that for you... Whatever Godly powers were apparently bestowed upon Greg a long time ago, I'm pretty sure it stands to reason that since Bionicle was cancelled he no longer has the power or permission to continue creating new canon. As far as permission goes, I imagine Lego just doesn't care as they clearly don't tell him to stop but it has this HUGE effect on the fanbase and it's so frustrating and unnecessary. I agree, you're right that BZP and BS01 and every other Bionicle fandom around, idolise Greg and hang off his every word. That's exactly what I'm saying is WRONG and it needs to stop before it gets any more out of hand than it already is! 

Un-fixed it. Or is it re-fixed it? Unrefixed? Whatever.

 

Point is, because GregF is the head writer, and obviously Lego hasn't bothered saying "no," then Word of God is in full play here. You say isn't Bionicle anymore. The reverse is true, he wasn't Bionicle before, but now he's the authority. Now, it's his story. He's the only member of the story team still working on Gen1. If Lego hasn't said no yet, then it's not exactly a huge leap in logic to assume that they haven't intervened because they don't want to. Until Greg quits or Lego says stop, he'll keep canonizing things.

 

Think about it; isn't it better to have them and not need them then to need them and not have them?

 

 

Un-refixed it for you XD

 

This could just be me. But Greg is NOT the head writer now is he? I didn't think he was even officially involved in Bionicle anymore. Gen 2 I mean... In which case there's a whole ACTUAL team of people who now supersede him as they are actually working on Bionicle again while he is an advisor I think? I'm not sure on this because I'm sure he's still working for TLG but I'm not sure in what capacity.

 

Either way, if your sole argument is 'Greg is fine to just keep going until someone tells him to stop' then you're kind of missing my point. Dorek made the same point actually while I was busy writing my essay. The problem is not that Greg doesn't stop answering these pointless questions. The problem is that people refuse to stop asking them...

 

Re-un-refixed for you.

 

When it comes to the reboot, Greg has even said he has no power there. He only answers questions about Gen1. Everyone supersedes him on Gen2, but he does still have control over Gen1.

 

He's, if I remember, the editor for Lego CLUB magazine.

[fishers64]

Lol @ the fight over one word. 
 

 

Anyway, I'm sure there's a quote by Greg somewhere where he says it's just a promotional item with no purpose. There have been plenty of those, and insisting they need to have purpose is just bizarre.

 
Well well well! This is what I find most interesting out of this whole debate!
 
Maybe if someone finds that quote we can lay this idea to rest (where it belongs, really) since it's become more complicated than necessary.

 

Let's do this. 
 

12. If the Trans Orange Kraata became a Rahkshi, What power would it have?

I never came up with a power for the Nike kraata.

 

10-what is the significance of the orange kraata that comes with the nike shoe in the story?
 
10) I don't think it had any signficance, as I recall

 

Bam. 

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

Even if Greg gives a different response now, he's told us to give his previous responses precedence. Thank Mata Nui, the Transparent Orange Kraata is safe.

[Jobber]

, Greg. . You've failed us once again.

[Munty]

I never said Greg was the Gen2 head writer, now did I.

 

When it comes to the reboot, Greg has even said he has no power there. He only answers questions about Gen1. Everyone supersedes him on Gen2, but he does still have control over Gen1.

 

He's, if I remember, the editor for Lego CLUB magazine.

So he WAS the head writer in G1. G1 was cancelled. He's not involved in G2. So he has no say in anything anymore and is merely of importance going forward because we allow him to be. It's simply something that pro-canon fans perpetuate by asking for more canonisations.

 

All joking aside, Greg WAS the head writer, he's not anymore. Time to drop the gag and face the facts I think...

 

And thank you Fishers for finding those quotes! I'm officially adopting the TOK as a symbol in the fight against rampant canonisation

[IcarusBen]

It's like Democrats and Republicans, though instead of liberal and conservative, it's pro and anti-canonization, and instead of a donkey and an elephant, it's a Fikou and a Trans-Orange Kraata.

[Jobber]

It's like Democrats and Republicans, though instead of liberal and conservative, it's pro and anti-canonization, and instead of a donkey and an elephant, it's a Fikou and a Trans-Orange Kraata.

Lol, sounds like a plan.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

It's like Democrats and Republicans, though instead of liberal and conservative, it's pro and anti-canonization, and instead of a donkey and an elephant, it's a Fikou and a Trans-Orange Kraata.

The most pathetic part is that it isn't even relevant anymore, considering G1 ended nearly five years ago. 

 

Even if Greg gives a different response now, he's told us to give his previous responses precedence. Thank Mata Nui, the Transparent Orange Kraata is safe.

 

Well, he said he didn't give it a power... not necessarily that it didn't exist...

 

I still like that Kraata-Kal idea.

Edited January 20, 2015 by TheSkeletonMan939

[ALVIS]

Well, he said he didn't give it a power... not necessarily that it didn't exist...

 

I still like that Kraata-Kal idea.

 

Seconded. Can't we all just agree to use this headcanon? It satisfies all camps: the TOK fans get a (fanon) storyline role, and the anti-canonization folks get to avoid throwing another unnecessary Kraata power into the mix.

[fishers64]

4. Is there an official color for the kraata-kal because I saw the bla/red kraata as the one that seem to fit the model.

 

 

4) Since it is a fan-built model, I think I would want the fan who built it to answer that.

 

2. What type of Kraata was Kraata-Kal prior to his transformation?

 

2) Don't know, wasn't really relevant to what he is now so I didn't worry about it.

 

[DuplexBeGreat]

It's like Democrats and Republicans, though instead of liberal and conservative, it's pro and anti-canonization, and instead of a donkey and an elephant, it's a Fikou and a Trans-Orange Kraata.

Brb changing signature.

[Dorek]

 

Well, he said he didn't give it a power... not necessarily that it didn't exist...

 

I still like that Kraata-Kal idea.

 

Seconded. Can't we all just agree to use this headcanon? It satisfies all camps: the TOK fans get a (fanon) storyline role, and the anti-canonization folks get to avoid throwing another unnecessary Kraata power into the mix.

 

Well, the issue is that people sometimes aren't satisfied with just headcanon; if they were, there would be far less debate, I think. People can think whatever they want, and they always could.

 

 

4. Is there an official color for the kraata-kal because I saw the bla/red kraata as the one that seem to fit the model.

 

 

4) Since it is a fan-built model, I think I would want the fan who built it to answer that.

 

2. What type of Kraata was Kraata-Kal prior to his transformation?

 

2) Don't know, wasn't really relevant to what he is now so I didn't worry about it.

 

 

1. I love you

2. Looks like the guy who made Kraata-Kal hasn't been on the board for a while, so we can't actually ask him.

 

 

It's like Democrats and Republicans, though instead of liberal and conservative, it's pro and anti-canonization, and instead of a donkey and an elephant, it's a Fikou and a Trans-Orange Kraata.

Brb changing signature.

 

This makes me sad for a lot of reasons.

[DuplexBeGreat]

This makes me sad for a lot of reasons.

I... don't know how to respond to that?  Did I offend you in some way?

[Jobber]

 

This makes me sad for a lot of reasons.

I... don't know how to respond to that?  Did I offend you in some way?

 

No, you didn't (I'm guessing). It's just a antagonistic way of being sarcastic. 

[Dorek]

Mostly the idea that we're such a fractious bunch that we can be compared to a near-failing governmental system, even in jest (it's essentially encouraging enmity, which is weird), but perhaps that's a little too heavy for BZP. I guess I don't like turning into just a "for or against" system, because that ignores a lot of the nuance in the topic and just promotes marginalization.

 

(Also the mascot idea made no sense, because TOK and Fikou would both represent "pro" canonization, no?)

[IcarusBen]

The TOK can't be canonized, so Munty chose it for the non-canonization purposes. I picked the fikou because people made Greg canonize the Fikou Nui and I found that pretty good for the cause of canonization.

 

Unlike the US political system, however, we don't want the other side to burn in an eternal flame. I say that's a win.

[DuplexBeGreat]

Mostly the idea that we're such a fractious bunch that we can be compared to a near-failing governmental system, even in jest (it's essentially encouraging enmity, which is weird), but perhaps that's a little too heavy for BZP. I guess I don't like turning into just a "for or against" system, because that ignores a lot of the nuance in the topic and just promotes marginalization.

 

(Also the mascot idea made no sense, because TOK and Fikou would both represent "pro" canonization, no?)

Ah, ok.  TOK represents anti-canonization because Greg has confirmed that it has no role in the story, doesn't exist, will never be canonized.  And I'm mostly joking, I just think the idea is funny.

[Regitnui]

 

 

Well, he said he didn't give it a power... not necessarily that it didn't exist...

 

I still like that Kraata-Kal idea.

Seconded. Can't we all just agree to use this headcanon? It satisfies all camps: the TOK fans get a (fanon) storyline role, and the anti-canonization folks get to avoid throwing another unnecessary Kraata power into the mix.

I was already doing that while watching the poop getting flung across the cage. There are now two subjects that are too flammable for the forums: character gender (or lack thereof) and post-term canonization.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Can't we all just agree to use this headcanon?

 

Considering this board's very loose interpretation of what headcanon is, it really isn't enough to suggest that using headcanon is some sort of backup option.

Edited January 20, 2015 by TheSkeletonMan939

[Munty]

I think headcanon is a perfectly reasonable solution provided those involved in the discussions are content to stop there. We could even redefine headcanon as a term to mean something like 'widely accepted as canon by the Bionicle (or maybe just BZP) community but in no way factual or relevant to the story'. That would be fine for us here in the anti-canonisation party I very much doubt it would be enough for the Fikou party though as I believe the majority of them are in favour of unquestionable canonisation so when conversations like this pop up in the future they can simply say 'yeah but it's canon 'cos Greg said so nothing anyone else says matters'. That's the exact point I take issue with. It's that the canonisation is the only 'correct' answer and everything else is 'wrong'. Even though most of these 'facts' were just made up by one Bionicle fan, it seems what that one fan says takes precedence over EVERY other fan in the community.

 

As far as the Fikou and TOK parties go I think it's just a bit of fun and can't really hurt. DuplexbeGreat could maybe work on a smaller sig though?! I know mine is pretty large too at the moment so I won't start throwing stones for the fear of my glass house but it's a bit big for something that's just a bit of a laugh  

[IcarusBen]

See, look at that. We had a veritable flame w-.... no... not really. Flame skirmish? 

 

Whatever.

 

And now, look! We're joking about Fikous and TO Kraata!

who should still be canonized since Greg is the head writer for Gen1 and will be until the day Lego tells him to stop no matter what anyone else says.

 

To FRIENDSHIP!