Size of the Great Spirit Robot: Are We Getting Actual Size?

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

Though I must say that you must have tall grass where you live - a lot of Agori sets have had considerable height over the grass I know about. 

 

Okay, you know what I was trying to imply. We would have seen a difference in the size of the surrounding objects if the Agori were toy size, thus this theory isn't plausible. 

 

I'm basically saying that everything has been shrunken down to set-level. That way, we can still have the GSR, but now it's not of a completely impossible size lying down.

 

Still a little hard to believe when it stands up, but who cares?

 

Me. I care.

 

But, yeah. The trees are tiny, the grass is freakishly tiny, the villages are tiny, the beetles are AWWW IT'S SO TINY!

 

But the robot would still be their equivalent of 40 million feet. If everything is the same size in their perspective, and we don't exist there to tell them that their planet is too big, there's really nothing being discussed here.

[IcarusBen]

Yeah, it's their equivalent to 40 million feet. But we, as the viewer/readers/whatevers exist to tell the plot that the planet is too big, and thus, I have.

[Irrie]

Yeah, it's their equivalent to 40 million feet. But we, as the viewer/readers/whatevers exist to tell the plot that the planet is too big, and thus, I have.

But...there isn't a difference, right? Since the only people interacting with it are seeing it as it is now, how can it matter? 

Edited April 15, 2015 by The Irrational Rock

[fishers64]

Yes, but if I existed on said proverbial planet I would be "400 feet" tall. Forget giant robots - the giant humans are much more vicious, and there's more of them! O_O

 

Hold on, this whole thing is discussing how large the GSR is compared to the toys, right? Like, how big would the GSR and PR be if we got them as sets?

Actually, no. Lego can't produce a 5 million foot-tall robot anymore than they can produce a 40 million foot tall robot. I think the best that can be done is a 4 foot tall set, on the 1: 10 million scale. 

[IcarusBen]

Yes, but if I existed on said proverbial planet I would be "400 feet" tall. Forget giant robots - the giant humans are much more vicious, and there's more of them! O_O

 

Hold on, this whole thing is discussing how large the GSR is compared to the toys, right? Like, how big would the GSR and PR be if we got them as sets?

Actually, no. Lego can't produce a 5 million foot-tall robot anymore than they can produce a 40 million foot tall robot. I think the best that can be done is a 4 foot tall set, on the 1: 10 million scale. 

Okay, if I was on this proverbial planet, I'd be 5 feet 9 inches, but the residents would see me as much taller because to them, they're 5 feet 9 inches, and I'm huge.

 

Of course, because of my circumference, to them, I'd create tremors wherever I stepped.

 

That's another thing that bugs me; why aren't there massive tremors when the robots walk around? Is the ground that dense, or are they tippy-toeing around? Nah, they can't really do, they'd still have to move their feet up and down.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Yes, but if I existed on said proverbial planet I would be "400 feet" tall. Forget giant robots - the giant humans are much more vicious, and there's more of them! O_O

 

Hold on, this whole thing is discussing how large the GSR is compared to the toys, right? Like, how big would the GSR and PR be if we got them as sets?

Actually, no. Lego can't produce a 5 million foot-tall robot anymore than they can produce a 40 million foot tall robot. I think the best that can be done is a 4 foot tall set, on the 1: 10 million scale. 

Okay, if I was on this proverbial planet, I'd be 5 feet 9 inches, but the residents would see me as much taller because to them, they're 5 feet 9 inches, and I'm huge.

 

Of course, because of my circumference, to them, I'd create tremors wherever I stepped.

 

That's another thing that bugs me; why aren't there massive tremors when the robots walk around? Is the ground that dense, or are they tippy-toeing around? Nah, they can't really do, they'd still have to move their feet up and down.

 

Which part of "not our universe, not our physics" are you having trouble with?

 

Their planet has a sentient liquid core! Does ours? No. Do our laws of physics have to apply here? No. Recall that the GSR and PR had Gravity powers, so Mata Nui could easily have directed some of it onto himself and Teridax to negate their weight and subsequent impact on the surface of the planet.

[ToaKapura1234]

I said exactly this much earlier in the topic.

[IcarusBen]

 

 

Yes, but if I existed on said proverbial planet I would be "400 feet" tall. Forget giant robots - the giant humans are much more vicious, and there's more of them! O_O

 

Hold on, this whole thing is discussing how large the GSR is compared to the toys, right? Like, how big would the GSR and PR be if we got them as sets?

Actually, no. Lego can't produce a 5 million foot-tall robot anymore than they can produce a 40 million foot tall robot. I think the best that can be done is a 4 foot tall set, on the 1: 10 million scale. 

Okay, if I was on this proverbial planet, I'd be 5 feet 9 inches, but the residents would see me as much taller because to them, they're 5 feet 9 inches, and I'm huge.

 

Of course, because of my circumference, to them, I'd create tremors wherever I stepped.

 

That's another thing that bugs me; why aren't there massive tremors when the robots walk around? Is the ground that dense, or are they tippy-toeing around? Nah, they can't really do, they'd still have to move their feet up and down.

 

Which part of "not our universe, not our physics" are you having trouble with?

 

Their planet has a sentient liquid core! Does ours? No. Do our laws of physics have to apply here? No. Recall that the GSR and PR had Gravity powers, so Mata Nui could easily have directed some of it onto himself and Teridax to negate their weight and subsequent impact on the surface of the planet.

 

"Not our universe, not our physics" is quite possibly the laziest excuse for lazy writing I've ever heard. The story team pulled that figure from nowhere and had to weasel their way into an excuse. It bugs me the same way that whole photo-enhancement thing is in crime shows; I don't care if it's fiction, it's simply not possible.

 

By the way, from what I can tell, their gravity powers only work a). to regulate the interior, not the exterior and b). to produce "gravity bursts," which... I have no clue what those are, but I can't see how they would help the FEET, when they're said to come from the HANDS.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

 

Yes, but if I existed on said proverbial planet I would be "400 feet" tall. Forget giant robots - the giant humans are much more vicious, and there's more of them! O_O

 

Hold on, this whole thing is discussing how large the GSR is compared to the toys, right? Like, how big would the GSR and PR be if we got them as sets?

Actually, no. Lego can't produce a 5 million foot-tall robot anymore than they can produce a 40 million foot tall robot. I think the best that can be done is a 4 foot tall set, on the 1: 10 million scale. 

Okay, if I was on this proverbial planet, I'd be 5 feet 9 inches, but the residents would see me as much taller because to them, they're 5 feet 9 inches, and I'm huge.

 

Of course, because of my circumference, to them, I'd create tremors wherever I stepped.

 

That's another thing that bugs me; why aren't there massive tremors when the robots walk around? Is the ground that dense, or are they tippy-toeing around? Nah, they can't really do, they'd still have to move their feet up and down.

 

Which part of "not our universe, not our physics" are you having trouble with?

 

Their planet has a sentient liquid core! Does ours? No. Do our laws of physics have to apply here? No. Recall that the GSR and PR had Gravity powers, so Mata Nui could easily have directed some of it onto himself and Teridax to negate their weight and subsequent impact on the surface of the planet.

 

"Not our universe, not our physics" is quite possibly the laziest excuse for lazy writing I've ever heard. The story team pulled that figure from nowhere and had to weasel their way into an excuse. It bugs me the same way that whole photo-enhancement thing is in crime shows; I don't care if it's fiction, it's simply not possible.

 

By the way, from what I can tell, their gravity powers only work a). to regulate the interior, not the exterior and b). to produce "gravity bursts," which... I have no clue what those are, but I can't see how they would help the FEET, when they're said to come from the HANDS.

 

Not the exterior? Then how did it affect Aqua and Bota Magna?

 

And it's not lazy--it's fact. Things work a certain way here in our world, because that's how it's supposed to be. Things work differently in their universe, because that's how it's supposed to work. The massive size for the robot makes sense, because it has to contain:

1) adequate living space for every sentient being, as well as thousands, if not millions, of Rahi

2) space for the water channels and domes in which the land masses are contained

3) the mechanisms that enable the GSR to move around

 

However you look at it, the size of the robot isn't so ridiculous. unless you simply don't like big numbers, which is the only problem you seem to be going on about.

[Millennium]

The~1st~Shadow is basically saying, since real world physics do not apply in Bionicle, there is really nothing to worry about. That's great discussing.

[Toa Aedak]

 

 

 

 

Yes, but if I existed on said proverbial planet I would be "400 feet" tall. Forget giant robots - the giant humans are much more vicious, and there's more of them! O_O

 

Hold on, this whole thing is discussing how large the GSR is compared to the toys, right? Like, how big would the GSR and PR be if we got them as sets?

Actually, no. Lego can't produce a 5 million foot-tall robot anymore than they can produce a 40 million foot tall robot. I think the best that can be done is a 4 foot tall set, on the 1: 10 million scale. 

Okay, if I was on this proverbial planet, I'd be 5 feet 9 inches, but the residents would see me as much taller because to them, they're 5 feet 9 inches, and I'm huge.

 

Of course, because of my circumference, to them, I'd create tremors wherever I stepped.

 

That's another thing that bugs me; why aren't there massive tremors when the robots walk around? Is the ground that dense, or are they tippy-toeing around? Nah, they can't really do, they'd still have to move their feet up and down.

 

Which part of "not our universe, not our physics" are you having trouble with?

 

Their planet has a sentient liquid core! Does ours? No. Do our laws of physics have to apply here? No. Recall that the GSR and PR had Gravity powers, so Mata Nui could easily have directed some of it onto himself and Teridax to negate their weight and subsequent impact on the surface of the planet.

 

"Not our universe, not our physics" is quite possibly the laziest excuse for lazy writing I've ever heard. The story team pulled that figure from nowhere and had to weasel their way into an excuse. It bugs me the same way that whole photo-enhancement thing is in crime shows; I don't care if it's fiction, it's simply not possible.

 

By the way, from what I can tell, their gravity powers only work a). to regulate the interior, not the exterior and b). to produce "gravity bursts," which... I have no clue what those are, but I can't see how they would help the FEET, when they're said to come from the HANDS.

 

Not the exterior? Then how did it affect Aqua and Bota Magna?

 

And it's not lazy--it's fact. Things work a certain way here in our world, because that's how it's supposed to be. Things work differently in their universe, because that's how it's supposed to work. The massive size for the robot makes sense, because it has to contain:

1) adequate living space for every sentient being, as well as thousands, if not millions, of Rahi

2) space for the water channels and domes in which the land masses are contained

3) the mechanisms that enable the GSR to move around

 

However you look at it, the size of the robot isn't so ridiculous. unless you simply don't like big numbers, which is the only problem you seem to be going on about.

 

alright can I take a Crack at this?  for starters we are assuming that The Great spirit Robot is Made of a Known metal. Real World Physics apply to a degree but assuming that the GSR is Made of some form of Proto-Metal we have no Idea how much it weighs or the properties of said metal. it could be as light as Tin and as sturdy as Grade-A steel or even harder. heck do we even have a comparison of how Protosteel matches up in sturdyness to things like Diamond?

Icarus is right, there is no excuse to say "it is fiction, it can defy logic with no explanation" but we Need an explanation as to why it functions to such a degree.

 

also why would a solid life sustaining planet the size of Jupiter not be plausible?  can someone explain this to me?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Toa Aedak

[Millennium]

Jupiter has an astonishing 25 gal gravity, and it is made of hydrogen, helium and traces of water and ammonia. It is therefore really, really light on density. If it was of solid more dense matter, its gravity would be unbearable for known lifeforms. And it's not like Jupiter's is that bearable anyway. Furthermore, so far we have no account of super-earths so big. All extrasolar rocky planets we know of are smaller than Neptune.

[Toa Aedak]

alright, is it possible to account for any form of Evolutionary Adaptaions by both the GB and the inhabitants of SM? what about those said "Mechanical Implants"? seen things like the "grunts" from Halo and the Kryptonian's from DC who also survive intense amounts of gravity how much would you scale these two examples compared to SM?

also would a Hollow Liquid Core instead of a Molten Metal core Lesson the Gravity in anyway?


(Edit: forget the Grunts. I ended up being wrong which is my fault for going off a Misc Guide book I read years ago. it is either my Memory is faulty or said information has changed.)

Edited April 15, 2015 by Toa Aedak

[ToaKapura1234]

The~1st~Shadow is basically saying, since real world physics do not apply in Bionicle, there is really nothing to worry about. That's great discussing.

But its true. Its like trying to use physics to explain why destroying the ring killed Sauron. There are plenty of things to discuss sure but some things you just have to accept the answer: "That's normal there" (and again what I said about it being silly to compare their stuff to real world heights since there is no real world stuff but that's just me)

[IcarusBen]

 

The~1st~Shadow is basically saying, since real world physics do not apply in Bionicle, there is really nothing to worry about. That's great discussing.

But its true. Its like trying to use physics to explain why destroying the ring killed Sauron. There are plenty of things to discuss sure but some things you just have to accept the answer: "That's normal there" (and again what I said about it being silly to compare their stuff to real world heights since there is no real world stuff but that's just me)

 

They can explain that by saying "magic," because they have established rules for such magic. Bionicle can't explain the GSR by saying "fiction physics" because they've not got a clue as to the rules of physics in the Bionicle universe. Why does Aqua Magna seem to have similar gravity to Spherus Magna? Why isn't their gravity unbearable? 

 

"Well, I dunno. Oh, but look, EXTREME ROBOT COMBAT!!"

[fishers64]

Excuse me while I point out the "magic" energized protodermis inside of SM and the "magic" protodermis inside Mata Nui. Such magic.

 

Okay I'm done now.

 

The EP must have been transforming SM somehow (unless it was wrapped entirely in EP-proof excidian). And absorbing gravity seems like the best bet. Thus allowing SM to be big without having gravity crushing everything.

 

I don't know why you guys don't like giant robots any more. First we have a bunch of people complaining that they don't want any giant robots in the reboot, and now we have people trying to shrink the giant robot because "it just can't be that big". The size is intended to induce awe and wonder, not inspire criticisms of unrealism from a bunch of adults.

[The 1st Shadow]

alright can I take a Crack at this?  for starters we are assuming that The Great spirit Robot is Made of a Known metal. Real World Physics apply to a degree but assuming that the GSR is Made of some form of Proto-Metal we have no Idea how much it weighs or the properties of said metal. it could be as light as Tin and as sturdy as Grade-A steel or even harder. heck do we even have a comparison of how Protosteel matches up in sturdyness to things like Diamond?

Icarus is right, there is no excuse to say "it is fiction, it can defy logic with no explanation" but we Need an explanation as to why it functions to such a degree.

 

also why would a solid life sustaining planet the size of Jupiter not be plausible?  can someone explain this to me?

Okay, I'm assuming you're new to the story and never read any of the source material. I'll explain it for you, then.

 

There are these things called domes which house the islands and continents within the robot. These domes are made of solid rock (though now that we know the nature of the MU, this rock likely hides tons of important machinery. We know there are miles of it because the Toa Metru traveled through this barrier to get to the outside of the robot's head, and their accounts of that journey can be found in Adventures #5: Voyage of Fear and #6: Maze of Shadows. Now, the head is one of the smaller parts of the body, and wouldn't need to support much but the inside. This means it doesn't need as much "inner padding" as the rest of the body surely must. Since this stone barrier extends throughout the entire MU, we have to conclude that a lot of space is taken up by this rock layer to help protect and hide the mechanisms that allow him to function.

 

And there is an explanation: Their universe is fundamentally different from ours and does not follow the same laws that ours does. That IS the explanation. Using the LoTR example, we just explain that magic exists there, and that's how things work. You accept that without question, so why does saying that the BIONICLE Universe functions as it does make such a huge difference? Use your imaginations! That's the whole point of LEGO. Read it, enjoy it, figure it out. 

 

Bonesii has given multiple theories on the subject, so you might check with him. 

 

Ninja'd by fishers. She basically summed up the best theory.

[IcarusBen]

Again, LoTR has rules for magic. Bionicle does not have rules for physics. They did not provide an explanation for how the gravity doesn't kill everyone, so I'm trying to rationalize it. 

 

I'm willing to accept Spherus Magna is much larger than Earth, but from what I can see in the artwork, if Aqua Magna is, say... the size of Jupiter, then Bara Magna is roughly two-thirds to five-sixths the size of the SUN. The SUN. I don't care how EP works, something that size must have overwhelming gravity, so much that no life could exist.

 

Maybe, MAYBE Spherus Magna could a little less than Neptune-sized, if we assume Aqua Magna is, say, the size of Mars or Venus, but the size of the Sun? No. Just... no.

[fishers64]

I'm pretty sure Aqua Magna was confirmed to be Earth size by Greg.

[Regitnui]

I've read this whole topic, and the argument here makes no sense. Sci-Fi writers and Bionicle fans apparently have No Sense of Scale. There's nothing wrong with the size of Spherus Magna, the GSR or anything else in the canon. You should see the numbers for what they are; meaningless chaff that's barely floating around the baking bread that is the story. Here's the big question those of us who want to reduce or otherwise change the numbers should answer before we go any further:

 

Why can't energized protodermis absorb or reduce Spherus Magna's gravity to near-Earth levels?

 

And when you've answered that in such a way that is not some variation on 'but physics', consider this nugget:

 

Where was it ever said that Bionicle was hard sci-fi operating on real-world physics? Was it when we were told that the GSR has an elementally-powered bug-swarm exfoliant? Shortly after we were told that these mysteriously out-of-place robots could fling bursts of fire at each other without any visible source? Or was it when we were introduced to the evil green ghost that can birth slugs and wear armour? Bioncle's relationship with real-world physics is like my relationships with attractive single women; a brief flirtation followed by not much of anything.

[IcarusBen]

I've read this whole topic, and the argument here makes no sense. Sci-Fi writers and Bionicle fans apparently have No Sense of Scale. There's nothing wrong with the size of Spherus Magna, the GSR or anything else in the canon. You should see the numbers for what they are; meaningless chaff that's barely floating around the baking bread that is the story. Here's the big question those of us who want to reduce or otherwise change the numbers should answer before we go any further:

 

Why can't energized protodermis absorb or reduce Spherus Magna's gravity to near-Earth levels?

 

And when you've answered that in such a way that is not some variation on 'but physics', consider this nugget:

 

Where was it ever said that Bionicle was hard sci-fi operating on real-world physics? Was it when we were told that the GSR has an elementally-powered bug-swarm exfoliant? Shortly after we were told that these mysteriously out-of-place robots could fling bursts of fire at each other without any visible source? Or was it when we were introduced to the evil green ghost that can birth slugs and wear armour? Bioncle's relationship with real-world physics is like my relationships with attractive single women; a brief flirtation followed by not much of anything.

The first question; we're never told that it can. 

 

The second question; we're never told anything about the physics of the Bionicle world. We accept the fact they can shoot fire from their hands because we're told how they do it; Toa have an innate ability to generate "elemental energy," which allows them control over a given element. They simply convert energy into matter. It doesn't matter that we can't do that in real life (as far as I know ) because we're told why it works. We're not told why Spherus Magna has Earth-like gravity, because again, it's never shown EP has the power to absorb/change gravity.

 

Also, someone asked "if the GSR's gravity only affects the interior, how could it affect Aqua and Bota Magna" or something like that. To quote from BS01;

 

 

It had the ability to manipulate the environment of this Matoran Universe, automatically controlling gravity and temperature levels. The robot could produce laser beams, and exert gravity bursts through its hands.

It controls gravity a). through it's hands and b). inside itself. Doesn't explain how the feet work.

[The 1st Shadow]

Also, someone asked "if the GSR's gravity only affects the interior, how could it affect Aqua and Bota Magna" or something like that. To quote from BS01;

 

 

It had the ability to manipulate the environment of this Matoran Universe, automatically controlling gravity and temperature levels. The robot could produce laser beams, and exert gravity bursts through its hands.

It controls gravity a). through it's hands and b). inside itself. Doesn't explain how the feet work.

 

That would be me, and I encourage you to look up Toa of Gravity, and how they can use their powers to fly. If they can fly, then a larger robot with similar powers could just as easily make himself weigh half as much.  

[IcarusBen]

 

Also, someone asked "if the GSR's gravity only affects the interior, how could it affect Aqua and Bota Magna" or something like that. To quote from BS01;

 

 

It had the ability to manipulate the environment of this Matoran Universe, automatically controlling gravity and temperature levels. The robot could produce laser beams, and exert gravity bursts through its hands.

It controls gravity a). through it's hands and b). inside itself. Doesn't explain how the feet work.

 

That would be me, and I encourage you to look up Toa of Gravity, and how they can use their powers to fly. If they can fly, then a larger robot with similar powers could just as easily make himself weigh half as much.

 

Except, again, it's only in the hands and in the interior. The feet still have no access to the gravity powers. Even with gravity powers, it's all gonna come down to how fast their feet are moving and their mass.

[Regitnui]

The first question; we're never told that it can.

Counterpoint: We're never told what exactly Energized Protodermis can't do. It transforms or destroys based on the introduced object's density, right? Well, then, logically, since Spherus Magna existed as a planet long enough for life to evolve despite the planet's outer layer and core being in contact with the stuff, the planet must have been transformed by the EP. Why not have the aberrant gravitational pull of the mega-planet be the transformation it underwent? Problem solved.

 

 

The second question; we're never told anything about the physics of the Bionicle world. We accept the fact they can shoot fire from their hands because we're told how they do it; Toa have an innate ability to generate "elemental energy," which allows them control over a given element. They simply convert energy into matter. It doesn't matter that we can't do that in real life (as far as I know ) because we're told why it works. We're not told why Spherus Magna has Earth-like gravity, because again, it's never shown EP has the power to absorb/change gravity.

I'm pretty sure the explanation of 'elemental energy' came after we were told Toa control their element, in another Greg-con. Converting energy to matter or vice-versa takes incredible amounts of power; a few atoms converted to energy makes the atomic bomb that levelled Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So Toa absorbing their element, especially Toa of Earth, Stone and Plantlife, should cause a reaction far outstripping any nuclear blast unleashed on the planet in a relatively confined space. To me, that's far more of a plot hole than the size of a giant robot which isn't even particularly big by the standards of fictional giant robots.

 

It's never shown that EP can alter gravity? Why then would one of the primary powers of the mostly-protodermis GSR be gravity control? Again, we're never shown EP failing to do anything, so it's the local phlebotnium, the 'magic' that holds the pseudoscience of the GSR together. The only reason you've given for EP not being able to do what I'm suggesting is "I've never seen it", which is, frankly, like saying that Saruman couldn't invent gunpowder in LotR because nobody in that world had ever seen it either.

 

Tl;dr: EP can do pretty much anything to anything it's in contact with. Who can say with authority it didn't transform Spherus Magna from the inside?

[IcarusBen]

You can't say "I dunno, therefore X." It's like if I said "There's a huge footprint here, but I don't know where it came from. Must be Bigfoot."

 

Has anyone bothered to ask Greg why the planet doesn't have crushing gravity?

[The 1st Shadow]

Except, again, it's only in the hands and in the interior. The feet still have no access to the gravity powers. Even with gravity powers, it's all gonna come down to how fast their feet are moving and their mass.

 

*sigh* How do you know that? We know Toa work that way, yes, but the robots aren't confirmed to work the same way. Also, if Mata Nui and Teridax are capable of generating gravity fields that can pull moons down from orbit, are they not capable of generating a similar field to minimize their own weight? (Yes, it would be projected through their hands, but it would affect the area around them.)

 

Clear?

[ToaKapura1234]

Q. Why does Aqua Magna have the same gravity as Bara?

A. Bara is hollow, aqua is not. And energized proto is basically magic as Fishers said (someone probably already said all this but this topic has gotten far too large for me to read all of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

snip

 

snip

snip

But the robot would still be their equivalent of 40 million feet. If everything is the same size in their perspective, and we don't exist there to tell them that their planet is too big, there's really nothing being discussed here.

This has been stated repeatedly and is becoming a dead horse (no offense meant, you're not to blame or anything) and I think it pretty much answers the topic. Anything else being discussed is fairly off topic and should probably be moved to a new one.

 

Also are we even allowed to link to TVTropes? They claim to be family friendly but 11 year olds and younger should really not be on that site or at least some pages. Then again Wikipedia's not really child-friendly either, in both cases because an all-encompassing database can't be. Is Wikipedia allowed? I digress which I suppose sort of shows what I was saying about this topic.

 

tldr; Question Answered; Close Topic?

Edited April 15, 2015 by ToaKapura1234

[Cwog]

Q. Why does Aqua Magna have the same gravity as Bara?

A. Bara is hollow, aqua is not. And energized proto is basically magic as Fishers said (someone probably already said all this but this topic has gotten far too large for me to read all of it.

 

 

 

 

snip

snip

snip

But the robot would still be their equivalent of 40 million feet. If everything is the same size in their perspective, and we don't exist there to tell them that their planet is too big, there's really nothing being discussed here.

This has been stated repeatedly and is becoming a dead horse (no offense meant, you're not to blame or anything) and I think it pretty much answers the topic. Anything else being discussed is fairly off topic and should probably be moved to a new one.

 

Also are we even allowed to link to TVTropes? They claim to be family friendly but 11 year olds and younger should really not be on that site or at least some pages. Then again Wikipedia's not really child-friendly either, in both cases because an all-encompassing database can't be. Is Wikipedia allowed? I digress which I suppose sort of shows what I was saying about this topic.

 

tldr; Question Answered; Close Topic?

 

I agree with you there. I was just looking through all these answers they're honestly really complicated and convoluted, but all go back to the same point.

[bonesiii]

To the first post:

It's definitely disproven canonically by Greg's confirmation of 7 feet for Toa, and it's actually a myth that the size is "absurd" (except in the intentionally mind-boggling way ), but I like the idea. It would seriously mess up some crossover fans (crossing over into the real world), but be awesome with the sets, and they're aliens, so why not?

It would also have some physics problems... but that might be really fun to explore so I wouldn't mind.

It solves the continents issue that every past attempt to tame the giant has faced -- smaller landmasses, but for smaller people, still continents. And it also solves the biggest problem such attempts have faced -- they run contrary to the idea of the bot by trying to tame it in the first place, but this one doesn't try to do that with respect to the characters, whose eyes we experience the story through, only the planet. Nice.

It would also make the giant bugs easier to accept.

And of course, fit the "nanotech" concept even better.


The biggest issue IMO:

It's actually an out-of-story one -- that it would have to be made clear up front in 2001, IMO. Definitely not a good idea as a retcon five years after the end of a ten-year run! Just because the emotional feel of it, knowing the comparison between the characters and us, would be so radically different. It would become central to the definition of Bionicle, and you can't just retcon something central in IMO. (Unless, I guess, you treated it as a mystery, but there's not supposed to be any actual connections to our world, so how could it ever be solved aside from an out-story reveal?)

So... too bad they didn't think of it then.

And another big issue, which only matters because of the above, but is in-story -- the behavior of elements. Mainly rock; a lot of emotional emphasis was placed on things like heavy rocks being moved around. But pebbles behave very differently and aren't really impressive; the behavior doesn't scale down well at all for beings of that size.

Actually in that category, it would explain the appearance of Koli balls, though.

(But this wouldn't really matter if it was stated up front and they made sure the portrayals were pebble-like, depending more on casing things in stone, etc. than projectile attacks, or speeding up the projectiles to compensate... or the reboot's sand solution.)



I'm getting error messages trying to post the reply after this point (lotsa quotes... not sure if it's the character length or too many quote tags). I'll try to edit some of it in in a bit, but I'll save the rest for another post if somebody else posts.

 

To replies:
 

 

And the glatorian and agori are living on a 'planet' how big? As far as interesting, really, this theory is, if Spherus Magna is of a reasonable size, it would be so incredibly, mind-boggingly large for someone the size of an agori that they would know or have explored pretty much none of it. If, on the other hand, we scale down the planet, too, problems with gravity and mass concerning the giant robots and their battle would present again.

This really doesn't matter much, as there's no geographical proof of scale between the region we saw on the map and the rest of the planet.
 

 

But in the past the agori and glatorian lived on pretty much all of Spherus Magna.

As far as I know, we don't know that. I theorized in my retelling's early chapters that prior to the Shattering they did inhabit a wider area originally, but how much wider we don't know and there's no reason to assume it was global.
 

 

who knows how much it took considering how small they were.

Again, doesn't matter -- extremely long lifespans.
 

 

[sorry, I misquoted this... it was the one saying mountain climbing would be worse; outta time to go back for it]

Actually, smaller creatures have an easier time with things like climbing, because their weight is much less of an issue. Squirrels anyone?
 

 

Not to mention that even a dog-sized creature could sweep entire villages to dust

But there may not be any, or they might be rare enough as to not be a problem. However, Bionicle has always had huge animals, either way.

 

 

 

Anyway, we must remember that they, small as they were, fought a war so powerful, combined with the corrupting effect of energized protodermis, it split the planet in three.

Yet again, irrelevant. They did that by "tapping into EP's power" where it happened to surface, which triggered it to explode. It would do that regardless of their size.
 

 

To Be Continued....

Edited April 16, 2015 by bonesiii

[IcarusBen]

Wait... just so we're clear, Bonesii agrees with me?

 

Also, SENPAI NOTICED ME!

 

I'm sorry I got the scale factor wrong, I saw somewhere that they were 1.6m tall, so I used that figure.

[The 1st Shadow]

Wait... just so we're clear, Bonesii agrees with me?

 

Also, SENPAI NOTICED ME!

 

I'm sorry I got the scale factor wrong, I saw somewhere that they were 1.6m tall, so I used that figure.

As I read it, he's saying the same thing as the rest of us have pointed out numerous times: None of this theory is relevant or applicable. He's saying it's a decent concept, but has already been proven wrong dozens of times over.

[fishers64]

bones likes your theory, but it still isn't canon.

 

In other things, I may have to nix the "AM = Earth size" thing I mentioned earlier. I have had no luck finding that quote at all. In any case, the 7 ft Toa and the 40 million foot tall robot (which is a well documented Greg quote BTW, which means it is canon *ahem*) disprove this one quite nicely. 

 

 

 

2.) I remember you saying that Bara Magna is the size of Earth, (I could be wrong). Is it? From the various media depictions, it seems Mata Nui and Makuta are only on a small section of Spherus Magna, even with Makuta laying down. So would it be the size of Jupiter, maybe bigger? The moon Aqua Magna seems to be about Mars sized after all.

 

 

2) No idea.

 

 

I guess not. I thought it was an old one that had "Endless Ocean Planet/EOP" (a fan nickname for Aqua Magna), but alas, no dice. Darn. 

[bonesiii]

Quotes continued...

 

 

 

How exactly would you be able to see a robot the size of Earth except for its feet?

 

Same way we can see the moon and the sun even though they're really far away.
 

 

Unless Bara Magna's atmosphere allows for extremely long visibility, you'd hardly see enough to know they were even humanoids.

With the new canon revelation by Greg that there's no Bionicle-physics effect on gravity and that while the planet is larger, it's not much larger, this is not an issue. The atmosphere would not be much thicker.

For the old understanding that it's more like Jupiter-sized or higher, it depends on how that is made to work. In my EP-changes-the-core-to-power-this theory, layering fields affecting the atmosphere were part of the effect in addition to absorbing any gravity over Earth level.

If you only lessen the gravity, it seems like the atmosphere still wouldn't be much thicker anyways, as there would be less gravity to hold it.

It would only really be an issue if it was both super-large and had normal gravity physics, but seeing a battle would be the least of their problems if that was the case!
 

 

If Aqua Magna is the size of Jupiter

Spherus/Bara. Aqua (and Bota) were the smaller pieces, not likely Jupiter-sized (though some art did make Aqua seem bigger than Earth).
 

 

The Agori would be walking through grass that was as tall as they were

Only if they crossed over to Earth... it's an alien planet -- no reason their grass equivalent has to be our size!
 

 

I'm basically saying that everything has been shrunken down to set-level. That way, we can still have the GSR, but now it's not of a completely impossible size lying down.

I wish people would stop using (hopefully) hyperbole like this. It's been shown repeatedly (every time a new topic on it comes up) that it is not impossible (just right on the edge of impossible which is really where it should be).

 

 

 

 

After that point, the discussion dived off course into the usual catchup with people who clearly didn't follow past topics on the subject. (But that's okay, happens every time. Somehow. ) And turned really weird at the end (no offense), but probably all of those quotes probably won't fit in this post.

 

 

 

why aren't there massive tremors when the robots walk around?

Theories about this were never confirmed as far as I know, but presumably the same reason as the theory that Mata Nui would absorb excess water as he entered an alien planet's ocean and send out dampening fields to prevent waves -- he was designed to spy on aliens worlds covertly (even while landing) -- and had a crazy amount of powers.

So, likely kinetic dampening field on the ground too.

Note, though, that Makuta clearly wasn't using it when he stood up on Aqua Magna, and it's possible the generator of it had broken down after a thousand years lying dormant. If so, Mata Nui may have extended his field to cover it. If not, he had no reason to use it on AM anyways as it was uninhabited. (Not that he cares.)
 

 

Not our universe, not our physics" is quite possibly the laziest excuse for lazy writing I've ever heard.

Not that myth again...

Think about it -- simply borrowing the "template" of the real world for all stories would be the lazy approach. Inventing different physics is by definition the opposite of laziness!

Now, they didn't try to make it hard science fiction and explain every little detail (as I am somewhat doing in my retelling as I love that genre ), but they weren't supposed to, given the audience and chosen genre.
 

 

The story team pulled that figure from nowhere and had to weasel their way into an excuse.

Wait, what?

What figure? The size of the giant robot or planet? None of those things was revealed or likely even decided when they chose to have it have different physics -- which was in 2001 and about Toa elemental powers, mask powers, etc. primarily.

Applying it to other things in Bionicle is absolutely reasonable.

(However, as said above, Greg turned down applying it to the gravity problem. This was solved, however, by making the planet larger but evidently not too much larger and interpreting the depicted behavior of motion and the like in animations as artistic license.)
 

 

we are assuming that The Great spirit Robot is Made of a Known metal. Real World Physics apply to a degree but assuming that the GSR is Made of some form of Proto-Metal

First, welcome to BZPower!

To your question, pretty sure nobody's assuming that, since it's common knowledge on here that actually the entire giant robot and all its contents* is of some type or another of protodermis.

*Other than a scroll somewhere and maybe a handful of other items.

(I'm not sure why we're talking about the metal hull anyways... What the heck does that have to do with anything, folks? )
 

 

we Need an explanation as to why it functions to such a degree.

Depending on what you mean by explanation, we don't really, because that's simply not the genre, and to demand to understand all aspects of fictional physics wouldn't make sense. Hopefully you just mean some sense of the direction of the explanation though.
 

 

also why would a solid life sustaining planet the size of Jupiter not be plausible?  can someone explain this to me?

Solid IS plausible. I think people saying that are focusing on the life part -- the explanation of artistic license for the way things move and bounce etc. starts to become worse and worse the higher the felt gravity goes. At Jupiter sized, it's way beyond that.

Doesn't mean life can't live on such a world, but it would have to be a radically different form of life. At the very least, it makes all story outside the giant robot impossible (artistic license can't save it then), without some physics alteration or power-based effect. (Inside it doesn't matter as the giant had artificial gravity.)
 

 

what about those said "Mechanical Implants"?

Useless, since they needed to survive before them in order to exist to invent them.
 

 

also would a Hollow Liquid Core instead of a Molten Metal core Lesson the Gravity in anyway?

That's a good point that I don't think has been brought up before, but I doubt the EP made up most of the mass of the planet. If it did, the explosion would look more like the destruction of the Death Star than a Shattering.
 

 

Its like trying to use physics to explain why destroying the ring killed Sauron.

Hey now, I actually do things like that automatically with every story. It's actually a myth that it's even remotely difficult; people who say that really don't try.

However, story producers are under no obligation to explain such things (unless they're writing hard science fiction, and even then most of it only goes a few steps into it).
 

 

Bionicle can't explain the GSR by saying "fiction physics" because they've not got a clue as to the rules of physics in the Bionicle universe.

How in the world does that follow? The fact that we don't know how fictional physics is possible is a big part of why the explanation works. The only way it wouldn't is it there was some weird rule that physics can't work if the people who live in a world governed by it don't understand it. But we didn't understand physics on our world until recently (and still don't know it all), yet it keeps on truckin' just fine.

Likewise, in a fictional world with fictional physics, knowing how it works is irrelevant to the ability for it to work.
 

 

The size is intended to induce awe and wonder, not inspire criticisms of unrealism from a bunch of adults.

Exactly. But don't take too seriously the people whining about it. Vocal critics phenomenon -- and I think it's well established that most people accept that fiction, esp. fantasy, is free to imagine a different world and under no obligation to explain it all.
 

 

Bionicle does not have rules for physics.

??

Uh, yes it does, which is why we used to have an official Bionicle physics topic summarizing the known rules.

 

 

 

but from what I can see in the artwork,

You can't base an absolute interpretation on that -- the artists were NOT attempting to portray hard science fiction or even canonically accurate depictions of the size.

I still loved the idea of megaplanets enough to run with it, and came up with my gravity theory from it, but that's for fun, which is the point of the franchise. Turning it into something to get upset about because it isn't just like Earth misses the point of entertainment (and fiction anyways).

 

 

I don't care how EP works, something that size must have overwhelming gravity, so much that no life could exist.

This doesn't follow, because EP granting the core a power to nullify gravity over Earth level works no matter how big the megaplanet.

(Moot point now that Greg turned it down, but he also never said the planet was actually that large. If you go by art, you have to think the planet's a lumpy potato and that the Codrex's keystone was both a stone tablet and a metal figurine at once...)
 

 

we're never told that it can.

Actually yes were were, as I explained in a recent topic. We know EP either transforms or destroys* -- and since it did not destroy the planet, it "must"* transform the rock it's in contact with. The question then is what kind of transformation it would cause.

We know EP's transformations are governed by destiny, which is adaptive. On most subjects, it is free to be essentially random, but since destiny would require something like this to enable multicellular (non-liquid) life, this is what the result of the transformation should be.

Thus the most likely transformation is to the gravity nulling power. And as a side effect to make the rock immune to further effects by contact with EP.

Combine this with the alternate universes for alternate possibilities which is canon, and if there's any randomness still left there, there should still be a branch of universes in which this is the power, and our story would follow one of them.

 

Also it is the ultimate origin of all Bionicle powers seen so far (aside from perhaps things like the Element Lords), including control over Gravity.



*There is one substance partially immune, exsidian (and a mix of that and a type of the artificial protodermis was fully immune), but the most plausible explanation of that is as a result of a transformation to be that way.


This also fit well into my theory of a super-ancient civilization of spacefaring aliens that seeded planets with EP to explain how multiple such worlds could exist, and transforming them into megaplanets with leveled gravity for aliens of various forms to iinhabit was the purpose of it.

None of that is canon but it would have worked easily, and the first part follows naturally from canon facts.

Edited April 16, 2015 by bonesiii

[Mjolnitor]

>Think about it -- simply borrowing the "template" of the real world for all stories would be the lazy approach. Inventing different physics is by definition the opposite of laziness!

 

Err, isn't there some difference between inventing and handwaving?

[Regitnui]

>Think about it -- simply borrowing the "template" of the real world for all stories would be the lazy approach. Inventing different physics is by definition the opposite of laziness!

 

Err, isn't there some difference between inventing and handwaving?

Yes, but this being handwaved is perfectly acceptable because it's an unimportant detail. I really wonder why people care so much about the size of the planets and the robot when it really has no bearing on the story if they're microscopic or ten times the observable universe.

 

What would really change about the story if the GSR was 40m tall or 40,000?

[fishers64]

 

Its like trying to use physics to explain why destroying the ring killed Sauron.

 

Hey now, I actually do things like that automatically with every story. It's actually a myth that it's even remotely difficult; people who say that really don't try.

 

However, story producers are under no obligation to explain such things (unless they're writing hard science fiction, and even then most of it only goes a few steps into it).

 

The size is intended to induce awe and wonder, not inspire criticisms of unrealism from a bunch of adults.

Exactly. But don't take too seriously the people whining about it. Vocal critics phenomenon -- and I think it's well established that most people accept that fiction, esp. fantasy, is free to imagine a different world and under no obligation to explain it all.

Side tangentish thing here, but the ring killing Sauron feels rather easy to explain. The dude is an ocular energy construct between two energy pylons that feed him energy. He needs a power source. 

 

Obviously, the Ring is his power source. Destroy it, and he goes poof. It's possible that he might have survived if he had a backup power plant run by Orcs, but it was probably easier to send the Orcs to go track down the pesky hobbits and get his original battery back, as they tend to be better at that sort of thing.

 

As for why a tiny piece of metal could power this huge eye thing, it was probably forged in the same place as the Ignika. Yonder Elves probably put some energy source in there, whether high powered nanobots or just magic. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to turn people invisible in the first place. 

 

With that being said, there's a lot of stories with stuff that's hard to explain with a theory. For example, I just finished a story with a complex method of human cloning that involved "soul extraction" and using computer chips to mimic human emotional expressions. Trying to explain that is enough to give me a headache - even the idea of programming emotions into chips is complicated enough, let alone the biological "emergence machines" the story used. And don't even get me started on the idea of "soul extraction" - the book shed doubt on whether it was even possible or if it was just a myth the scientists told the main character. 

 

I often find that the farther one walks away from the real world, the simpler the stories tend to get, and the closer one gets to real world physics or technology, the harder it is to comprehend. More handwaves are given the closer to the real world one gets...up to the point where the story resembles everyday life so much that the explanation is already there in our minds - and even that is a handwave, but one the audience automatically does in their minds so much that the producers don't even have to handwave it. There are no explanations given for vacuum cleaners.  However, I can tell you that the mechanical operations of said device include electromagnetism and mechanical parts and sound dampeners and filtration devices, not to mention the electronic sensors and computer stuff in it. Sauron is simple by comparison. 

 

 

>Think about it -- simply borrowing the "template" of the real world for all stories would be the lazy approach. Inventing different physics is by definition the opposite of laziness!

 

Err, isn't there some difference between inventing and handwaving?

Yes, but this being handwaved is perfectly acceptable because it's an unimportant detail. I really wonder why people care so much about the size of the planets and the robot when it really has no bearing on the story if they're microscopic or ten times the observable universe.

 

What would really change about the story if the GSR was 40m tall or 40,000?

 

Uh, the amount of space the characters have to move around, and their relation to the force of gravity. (Given that Toa are 7 ft tall confirmed.)

 

Unless you want to headcanon that the amount of gravitational force per unit of mass in the Bionicle universe is less. That's one thing that we haven't considered that might get rid of this whole problem. 

[IcarusBen]

Here's a question, Bonesii; If EP always creates or destroys, then... how exactly is one suppose to store it? From what I can tell, the Mangaia has a pool of EP, why didn't Makuta have to constantly either repair or dispose of the EP vat?

[Regitnui]

Here's a question, Bonesii; If EP always creates or destroys, then... how exactly is one suppose to store it? From what I can tell, the Mangaia has a pool of EP, why didn't Makuta have to constantly either repair or dispose of the EP vat?

Maybe he did. We don't know, it's another unimportant detail. But perhaps the interaction between the EP and Mangaia's floor (and other pools of EP) resulted in the first samples of Exsidian.

[fishers64]

I thought the GBs put excidian in the robot to contain the EP in places where they put it. 

[The 1st Shadow]

I thought the GBs put excidian in the robot to contain the EP in places where they put it. 

That's what I always thought, too. The vials that contained it were confirmed to be exsidian, right?