Size of the Great Spirit Robot: Are We Getting Actual Size?

[IcarusBen]

BS01 claims that the EP was interested in Makuta and let him experiment with the stuff, which is why the vat didn't have to transform.

 

But that means that EP doesn't always transform or destroy! You can't say that it always does when it clearly doesn't always.

[ToaKapura1234]

There is an exception to every rule, including the one I am stating.

[fishers64]

Who said the vat wasn't made of Excidian? There had to be plenty of it in the MU, otherwise the EP pools scattered throughout the universe would have transformed or destroyed Mata Nui. Surely Teridax could have found some?

[The 1st Shadow]

BS01 claims that the EP was interested in Makuta and let him experiment with the stuff, which is why the vat didn't have to transform.

 

But that means that EP doesn't always transform or destroy! You can't say that it always does when it clearly doesn't always.

Who says it doesn't always? Perhaps the vat/pool WAS made of exsidian. It accidentally transformed/destroyed other things, so I don't think that means it can withhold its power the way the Ignika can withhold its curses. It has no choice but to do those things, but remember that it fought back when the Metru tried to take a small bit of its substance. "Allowing Teridax to experiment" could just mean that it didn't try to defend itself when he was working with it.

[Cwog]

Forgive me for not knowing this... does "EP" stand for Energized Protodermis?

[Toa Aedak]

 

alright can I take a Crack at this?  for starters we are assuming that The Great spirit Robot is Made of a Known metal. Real World Physics apply to a degree but assuming that the GSR is Made of some form of Proto-Metal we have no Idea how much it weighs or the properties of said metal. it could be as light as Tin and as sturdy as Grade-A steel or even harder. heck do we even have a comparison of how Protosteel matches up in sturdyness to things like Diamond?

Icarus is right, there is no excuse to say "it is fiction, it can defy logic with no explanation" but we Need an explanation as to why it functions to such a degree.

 

also why would a solid life sustaining planet the size of Jupiter not be plausible?  can someone explain this to me?

Okay, I'm assuming you're new to the story and never read any of the source material. I'll explain it for you, then.

 

There are these things called domes which house the islands and continents within the robot. These domes are made of solid rock (though now that we know the nature of the MU, this rock likely hides tons of important machinery. We know there are miles of it because the Toa Metru traveled through this barrier to get to the outside of the robot's head, and their accounts of that journey can be found in Adventures #5: Voyage of Fear and #6: Maze of Shadows. Now, the head is one of the smaller parts of the body, and wouldn't need to support much but the inside. This means it doesn't need as much "inner padding" as the rest of the body surely must. Since this stone barrier extends throughout the entire MU, we have to conclude that a lot of space is taken up by this rock layer to help protect and hide the mechanisms that allow him to function.

 

And there is an explanation: Their universe is fundamentally different from ours and does not follow the same laws that ours does. That IS the explanation. Using the LoTR example, we just explain that magic exists there, and that's how things work. You accept that without question, so why does saying that the BIONICLE Universe functions as it does make such a huge difference? Use your imaginations! That's the whole point of LEGO. Read it, enjoy it, figure it out. 

 

Bonesii has given multiple theories on the subject, so you might check with him. 

 

Ninja'd by fishers. She basically summed up the best theory.

 

1) I am not new to the story.

 

2) since the Metru/Great Resue Arc the universe (GSR) has been mostly described as being made of Protodermis, a synthetic form of matter used to be the building block of everything in the MU. yes I know there are domes, and I really find it rude in how you are talking down to me like that with your tone. (edit: apologies for the Hostility, I am used to being talked down to so that is how it came off when you said that. I scratched it out, but if I remove it I will feel like a pansy trying to hide something.)

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Protodermis

 

even the wiki states this.

 

 

as for your statement about "solid Rock" even if there was actual Earthen Rock in large Quantities I doubt it would only estimate up to around 3% of all matter that the MU is Made of. that is also a point that the Rock could be in itself Protodermis as it is never describe as having a difference from it and what would be normally found. if the Metru did come across this they would have marveled at the difference between it and the Proto Rock they work with, or it can even be a form of Proto-bedrock, though I do agree it would need "Padding".

 

BS01 claims that the EP was interested in Makuta and let him experiment with the stuff, which is why the vat didn't have to transform.

 

But that means that EP doesn't always transform or destroy! You can't say that it always does when it clearly doesn't always.

Who says it doesn't always? Perhaps the vat/pool WAS made of exsidian. It accidentally transformed/destroyed other things, so I don't think that means it can withhold its power the way the Ignika can withhold its curses. It has no choice but to do those things, but remember that it fought back when the Metru tried to take a small bit of its substance. "Allowing Teridax to experiment" could just mean that it didn't try to defend itself when he was working with it.

 

this is a good point, Teridax could have somehow coaxed it.

Forgive me for not knowing this... does "EP" stand for Energized Protodermis?

indeed it does, and it is alright shorthanded Abbreviations are hard to recognize if you are not "in the loop" in a conversation with a fanbase. I found myself scratching my head for a few moments before reading on and putting the clues together.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Toa Aedak

[fishers64]

Forgive me for not knowing this... does "EP" stand for Energized Protodermis?

Yes. 

 

Sorry, pardon my flash-type-hand, which I forget that not everyone knows about.

Edited April 16, 2015 by fishers64

[ToaKapura1234]

And perhaps the vat had already been transformed and thus would not transform again unless the Protodermis was removed and replaced, right? Can't undergo two transformations in one dip, correct?

[Toa Aedak]

And perhaps the vat had already been transformed and thus would not transform again unless the Protodermis was removed and replaced, right? Can't undergo two transformations in one dip, correct?

not sure that was ever specified tbh.

[bonesiii]

we're never told anything about the physics of the Bionicle world.

 

Say what?!

 

Er... I'm going to give this a pass, though, as it's unclear if you mean general or specific physics (as I use the terms to refer to underlying physics itself or behavior of advanced technology/magic/etc. that actually uses the same underlying physics, just in different ways). But since the story doesn't comment on which is which, for fiction it's pretty much all just "physics."

 

Given that, we're told quite a lot, so much that even for me I never really got around to getting that official topic exhaustive. If anything the problem was we were told TOO MUCH about the physics, as that evidences.

 

 

it's never shown EP has the power to absorb/change gravity.

 

Oh, I see how you got to the earlier thing then -- no, that wasn't the theory. It was that the EP altered the rock to do this.

 

Having the EP itself do it would be pointless, since it was gone for 100,000 years.

 

 

The feet still have no access to the gravity powers

 

Okay, I thought I was imagining the vibe of this in earlier posts so I didn't say anything. Also, I must have missed why we're talking about gravity from the hands in the first place -- what is hoped to be accomplished by it? (Replacement for the kinetic dampening theory?)

 

But this quote is... uh... well let's just skip the descriptors and debunk what it's apparently arguing.

 

The gravity's range reaches even to moons in orbit. It can definitely reach the feet. Where the generators are is irrelevant.

 

 

You can't say "I dunno, therefore X."

 

That's a strawman, Ic. Nobody said that.

 

They said "it's fiction, and fiction isn't intended to be limited to how things are in the real world, therefore X, and we don't know details that aren't the point of the fiction."

 

 

It's like if I said "There's a huge footprint here, but I don't know where it came from. Must be Bigfoot."

 

No, it's nothing like that. Bigfoot isn't a work of fiction that's meant to be fiction (well, some hoaxters might mean it that way, but the foil-hat types think it's true). This discussion has taken some weird turns... >_>

 

Can we please get back on-topic?

 

 

 

 

Err, isn't there some difference between inventing and handwaving?

 

Problem is, choosing that label can be motivated by just happening to have a personal taste against something that is perfectly valid. You have to learn to actually appreciate the good reasons for having different genres that focus on different things, because different people do have different tastes (and that's good -- you agree? ).

 

So, carelessly applying that as if it was an objective problem when actually it's your preferences, can actually be a cause of problems.

 

In this case, clearly Bionicle should not have tried to be hard science fiction. It actually went a bit deeper into the more "out there" stuff in the early years (Pohatu's Nuva mask extra power for example), that was walked back because it was recognized that the target audience was not yet to that level.

 

Keep in mind I'm speaking as one of the geekiest fans of physics on here -- I get the temptation to turn that into a negative -- I missed the (slightly) deeper sci-fi featurings (although the later years had more of a feel of that direction, of course, just not as much heady explanations), and it took me a while to get that this just meant I wasn't completely in line with the average tastes. (And chances are always slim that any individual will be, so that's cool.)

 

Probably the difference with me is I want to be a writer of these things myself.

 

Fans can get away with being under illusions about writing like overestimating their own preferences as objective quality (or overblowing certain early-level guidelines about writing into absolute rules or the like), but a writer who wants any degree of success has to be more realistic.

 

 

 

I even experimented with this on purpose for my retelling; since there's no chance of me ever making money on it or anything like that, I was free to make it "my vision of Bionicle", but as predicted, there was a slew of early complaints that it did get more heady about the sci-fi side of it than the canon. And those people were just as convinced as the pro-higher-sci-fi people that their way was right. (Again as predicted; not my first rodeo. )

 

 

Aaaaaanyways... Tiny Toa.

 

 

 

 

Obviously, the Ring is his power source. Destroy it, and he goes poof.

 

And now we're lurching even farther away from tiny Toa, lol.

 

I believe Tolkien said the ring sort of acted like an anchor that the "departed" spirit of Sauron from the previous age was using to pull himself back in, and once it was destroyed, he slipped back into the void. Or something like that.

 

So... kinda like a power source but more like a boat on an anchor, fighting strong winds/currents and trying to toss another anchor onto the island (find the ring) to pull it back. Destroy the whole island by leveling it to the ocean floor, and both that potential target anchor point and the current one are lost. Boat is pushed away.

 

It certainly weilded great power when used by him, though, and it seems like he alone had the equivalent of a passcode to access the full control. (And for those who didn't it allowed partial access to hoodwink them into doing its bidding based on "autopilot" programming/spells, or perhaps a quasi-AI.)

 

Obviously none of that actually works by things like wires or anything; fictional energy/magic versions, but yeah.

 

 

Um... tiny Toa.... >_>

 

Tiny Toa are... tiny.

 

Their masks are... tiny.

 

Hey that could be interesting. Remember the tiny masks on the Kofo-Jaga in one of the books? This alternate version of Bionicle would have the Toa's masks be kinda like that. (And the Kofo-Jaga's masks would be itsy bitsy.)

 

 

 

For example, I just finished a story with a complex method of human cloning that involved "soul extraction" and using computer chips to mimic human emotional expressions.

 

I can explain that in ten minutes or less, but we're far enough off-topic and it might get into things some would find controversial (although not actually against any rules, but still) so let's not go there.

 

(PM me if you're curious, though.)

 

(My explanation would also virtually nullify certain aspects of the idea you probably are using for plot purposes, though... But only some and depends on how you do it. )

 

 

 

I often find that the farther one walks away from the real world, the simpler the stories tend to get, and the closer one gets to real world physics or technology, the harder it is to comprehend.

 

Oh yeah. Getting some training right now on a particular subject for a job, and my supervisor actually just said something like "for now, just accept that that's how it works." In an EXISTING world, nobody rational applies this "we have to understand it for it to work" rationale for complaints -- it's just in fiction and with some who evidently have not learned much about the genres they're criticizing.

 

(Now, if somebody wrote in to a hard science fiction publisher with certain "handwaving", that actually would be a blunder. But it all depends on what you're going for. Plus, if you try, and do it wrong. Although mainstream fiction like Star Trek actually does that all the time lol.)

 

Outta time for now... Gator, laters.

 

Edit: Okay... back... Anywho.

 

 

 

Unless you want to headcanon that the amount of gravitational force per unit of mass in the Bionicle universe is less. That's one thing that we haven't considered that might get rid of this whole problem.

 

For the record, this was one of the oldest theories about it.

 

 

Here's a question, Bonesii; If EP always creates or destroys, then... how exactly is one suppose to store it?

 

That was the point of that immune mix of exsidian and proto I mentioned.

 

 

From what I can tell, the Mangaia has a pool of EP, why didn't Makuta have to constantly either repair or dispose of the EP vat?

Somebody presumably mined the proto/exsidian (protosidian???) from the rock of the EP pools the GBs made around the MU to make the vials and that vat and anything else needed for that. It would have been one of the easiest finds of science ever, since whoever took that EP had to see the pools originally and that they weren't going down, while everything the takers tried was affected.

 

 

BS01 claims that the EP was interested in Makuta and let him experiment with the stuff, which is why the vat didn't have to transform.

 

That may be a rare bad edit or from a forgetcon (but I've never heard of it -- and it was also said the Entity couldn't control the results, so doesn't sound canon).

 

Regardless, evidently destiny governs not transforming too -- just as with Kraata it's always their destiny to become armor suits, proto/exsidian always doesn't transform. This doesn't change that if destiny needed the planet transformed, it had to be.

 

(And as I mentioned, contact with EP is probably the best explanation of exsidian in the first place; things that have already BEEN transformed can at least for a short time continue to be in the pool without continually being transformed, like the Nuva as they emerged, so it's probably a permanant version of that.)

 

Also, we don't know that the contact doesn't produce some kind of constant transformation.

 

For example, if a substance needs a charge of energy to fuel a power that produces a protective energy field, usage or just sitting on a shelf away from EP could drain it. But contact could "transform the charge to full" (or sommat).

 

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry Cwog -- it's just that "energized protodermis" is so long, and one of the harder words to type even for the fluent (what with the z and all). I had to consciously force myself not to use the acronym for the retelling, heh. (Explains why in-story they often shorten it to just protodermis. Acronyms aren't Bionicle's style, heh.) Since then I've tried to use them less even in S&T but I've kinda slipped back into the old habits on that one, heh.

Edited April 16, 2015 by bonesiii

[Toa Aedak]

 

we're never told anything about the physics of the Bionicle world.

 

Say what?!

 

Er... I'm going to give this a pass, though, as it's unclear if you mean general or specific physics (as I use the terms to refer to underlying physics itself or behavior of advanced technology/magic/etc. that actually uses the same underlying physics, just in different ways). But since the story doesn't comment on which is which, for fiction it's pretty much all just "physics."

 

Given that, we're told quite a lot, so much that even for me I never really got around to getting that official topic exhaustive. If anything the problem was we were told TOO MUCH about the physics, as that evidences.

 

 

I have to argue on this simply as we were given too much information on things we Don't need to know about. again the Properties of Metal like Protosteel which is the "hardest known substance in the MU" is pretty important. although I will hand it to you that outside of my recent arguement, knowing the properties and weight of protodermic Material has little to know importance to the actual progression of the story unless we are going into a detailed battle, which Bionicle seems to lack plenty of along with character description in story (Examples are Tren Krom, Helryx, ect). what has been dictated and what lacks dictating alone is what is frustrating.

[IcarusBen]

If I'm remembering right (this discussion is way too long for me to dig through it) I used the "I dunno, therefore X" strawman because someone used the strawman on themselves, something along the lines of "we don't know what it can't do."

 

As for why gravity generators in the hands don't work, unless the GSR is always walking like this;

(just imagine he's standing, I couldn't find a good photo to demonstrate my point) then even if he could use his gravity power on his feet, it's pointless because his hands are already busy punching people and shooting lasers and stuff.

[ToaKapura1234]

Who says moving his hands is necessary for gravity powers?

[bonesiii]

I used the "I dunno, therefore X" strawman because someone used the strawman on themselves, something along the lines of "we don't know what it can't do."

But that's not the same argument. That's pointing out that you can't assume it doesn't work just because you don't know how it works. Not the same as saying it definitely COULD work.

 

 

 

As for why gravity generators in the hands don't work, unless the GSR is always walking like [iron Man flying]

Like I said, I'm not sure why it's being brought up, but if he needed gravity control under him, he'd point under him. And he's not normally walking; he flies through space, lands, lies down to disguise himself, does science, then flies off again.

 

(And how do you know he'd have to point the hands at something? A short range effect just around him might not need that, whereas Makuta's gravity burst attack would presumably need to be like that.)

 

then even if he could use his gravity power on his feet, it's pointless because his hands are already busy punching people and shooting lasers and stuff.

So wait, this is about during the battle?

 

(Still not sure to what end, though?)

[The 1st Shadow]

If I'm remembering right (this discussion is way too long for me to dig through it) I used the "I dunno, therefore X" strawman because someone used the strawman on themselves, something along the lines of "we don't know what it can't do."

 

As for why gravity generators in the hands don't work, unless the GSR is always walking like this;

 

(just imagine he's standing, I couldn't find a good photo to demonstrate my point) then even if he could use his gravity power on his feet, it's pointless because his hands are already busy punching people and shooting lasers and stuff.

Okay... Um... We're talking about generating a gravity FIELD that surrounds the AREA, not using the built-in repulsors to lift the individual robots. All Mata Nui would have to do is maintain the field whilst he and Terry were playing Rock'em-Sock'em Robots.

 

 

EDIT: Oh, and Bones, we're talking about how a massive robot would cause tremors that would otherwise devastate the planet if not hindered.

Edited April 17, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[fishers64]

And why are there no gravity absorbers/generators in the feet again? We've established canonically that Mata Nui has gravity generators throughout his body. How do the feet/ankles suddenly not have it, and how does Teridax/Mata Nui suddenly not have control over those?

 

But I don't get why Teridax would want to absorb the gravitational fluctuations caused by combat. He's a villain, and the Agori could be crushed/flung for all he cared. I don't think the Prototype would have enough power to do that sort of grav absorption, especially with the other strains of combat it was experiencing.

 

The worst part wouldn't be the combat as much as when Teridax hit the Black Spikes. That's got to be some impact vibration right there.  

[The 1st Shadow]

 

But I don't get why Teridax would want to absorb the gravitational fluctuations caused by combat. He's a villain, and the Agori could be crushed/flung for all he cared. 

 

Well, he wanted to conquer the universe, to rule over it. Any good villain knows it's not worth ruling over a wasteland.

[fishers64]

 

 

But I don't get why Teridax would want to absorb the gravitational fluctuations caused by combat. He's a villain, and the Agori could be crushed/flung for all he cared. 

 

Well, he wanted to conquer the universe, to rule over it. Any good villain knows it's not worth ruling over a wasteland.

 

He didn't care about SM that much, considering he tried to grav-crush it a few minutes later. He had a whole universe. What's one planet?

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

 

But I don't get why Teridax would want to absorb the gravitational fluctuations caused by combat. He's a villain, and the Agori could be crushed/flung for all he cared. 

 

Well, he wanted to conquer the universe, to rule over it. Any good villain knows it's not worth ruling over a wasteland.

 

He didn't care about SM that much, considering he tried to grav-crush it a few minutes later. He had a whole universe. What's one planet?

 

I was under the impression that he was resorting to that as a way to bring down Mata Nui.

[bonesiii]

EDIT: Oh, and Bones, we're talking about how a massive robot would cause tremors that would otherwise devastate the planet if not hindered.

Okay, but specifically how is gravity being brought into it?

[P~M]

 

EDIT: Oh, and Bones, we're talking about how a massive robot would cause tremors that would otherwise devastate the planet if not hindered.

Okay, but specifically how is gravity being brought into it?

 

I think the argument is about someone a while back in the topic saying that the GSR and the PR could use gravity powers to prevent massive earthquakes whenever the robot took a step, to which someone countered by saying that nowhere does it say that the robots have gravity powers outside internal control and "gravity bursts" from the hands, ad infinitum.

[fishers64]

I was under the impression that he was resorting to that as a way to bring down Mata Nui.

Mata Nui wasn't going to be destroyed by that gravity blast. It was a way to psychologically injure his opponent (because Mata Nui cared about the Bara Magans), not kill him.

 

Though if he wanted to rule over Bara Magna more than hurt Mata Nui, I think he wouldn't have used that tactic. (Plus also Bara Magna was already a wasteland. It wasn't strategically valuable anyway - the point of the psychological hurt was that Makuta considered what Mata Nui valued most to be expendable.)

 

I think the argument is about someone a while back in the topic saying that the GSR and the PR could use gravity powers to prevent massive earthquakes whenever the robot took a step, to which someone countered by saying that nowhere does it say that the robots have gravity powers outside internal control and "gravity bursts" from the hands, ad infinitum.

Where was that confirmed?

[P~M]

I think the argument is about someone a while back in the topic saying that the GSR and the PR could use gravity powers to prevent massive earthquakes whenever the robot took a step, to which someone countered by saying that nowhere does it say that the robots have gravity powers outside internal control and "gravity bursts" from the hands, ad infinitum.

Where was that confirmed?

 

BS01, I believe. Someone posted a source somewhere. There's nothing that says he doesn't have powers outside that, but that's all it says he can do.

[bonesiii]

I think the argument is about someone a while back in the topic saying that the GSR and the PR could use gravity powers to prevent massive earthquakes whenever the robot took a step, to which someone countered by saying that nowhere does it say that the robots have gravity powers outside internal control and "gravity bursts" from the hands, ad infinitum.

Then it seems to me a lot of time was spent for nothing on that ad infinitum, because a more relevant issue is how gravity would help prevent earthquakes. Anywho, suffice to say, kinetic dampening is a better solution (and also seems to be present in the interior, since everybody didn't die in the GC, although as in Star Trek's inertial dampeners, it didn't completely block it so there was still a quake).

 

 

Now if the argument is making the giant lightweight by an inverse gravity field ("anti-gravity" if you will), then that might help... but still not the best solution.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

EDIT: Oh, and Bones, we're talking about how a massive robot would cause tremors that would otherwise devastate the planet if not hindered.

Okay, but specifically how is gravity being brought into it?

 

Why, my dear boy, you've answered that for yourself.

 

Now if the argument is making the giant lightweight by an inverse gravity field ("anti-gravity" if you will), then that might help... but still not the best solution.

 

But it would work, right? Better than using thrusters in the feet to combat the pull of the planet, yes?

 

 

I was under the impression that he was resorting to that as a way to bring down Mata Nui.

Mata Nui wasn't going to be destroyed by that gravity blast. It was a way to psychologically injure his opponent (because Mata Nui cared about the Bara Magans), not kill him.

 

Though if he wanted to rule over Bara Magna more than hurt Mata Nui, I think he wouldn't have used that tactic. (Plus also Bara Magna was already a wasteland. It wasn't strategically valuable anyway - the point of the psychological hurt was that Makuta considered what Mata Nui valued most to be expendable.)

That's what I meant. 

[P~M]

 

I think the argument is about someone a while back in the topic saying that the GSR and the PR could use gravity powers to prevent massive earthquakes whenever the robot took a step, to which someone countered by saying that nowhere does it say that the robots have gravity powers outside internal control and "gravity bursts" from the hands, ad infinitum.

Then it seems to me a lot of time was spent for nothing on that ad infinitum, because a more relevant issue is how gravity would help prevent earthquakes. Anywho, suffice to say, kinetic dampening is a better solution (and also seems to be present in the interior, since everybody didn't die in the GC, although as in Star Trek's inertial dampeners, it didn't completely block it so there was still a quake).

 

 

Now if the argument is making the giant lightweight by an inverse gravity field ("anti-gravity" if you will), then that might help... but still not the best solution.

 

I'm not an expert on physics (I'm in my first high school physics class currently), but I'd imagine that if the acceleration by gravity was lessened for the immediate area around the GSR, the force the robot exerts on the ground when its foot falls would be lower.

 

I'm also not sure what the difference between an inverse gravity field and what you interpreted everyone else to be suggesting is... could you explain that?

[fishers64]

FTR: (I'm getting myself back on topic, but I want to resolve this out. Here I go.)

Probably the difference with me is I want to be a writer of these things myself.

Fans can get away with being under illusions about writing like overestimating their own preferences as objective quality (or overblowing certain early-level guidelines about writing into absolute rules or the like), but a writer who wants any degree of success has to be more realistic.

I'll verify this. I've had to choke on at least one or two personal tastes of mine for every good story I write. The bad ones tend to not do this, and that's how I know they're bad.

Soda is good for treating the sick feeling.
 

Um... tiny Toa.... >_>

Tiny Toa are... tiny.

Their masks are... tiny.

Hey that could be interesting. Remember the tiny masks on the Kofo-Jaga in one of the books? This alternate version of Bionicle would have the Toa's masks be kinda like that. (And the Kofo-Jaga's masks would be itsy bitsy.)

I thought we were at set size, not micron size.
 

 

For example, I just finished a story with a complex method of human cloning that involved "soul extraction" and using computer chips to mimic human emotional expressions.

SNIP

 

I'm going to hope that you didn't miss the point of the paragraph that you took that sentence out of. I was referring to the complexity of biological cloning (an already complex subject), compounded with a severe programming challenge, compounded by having all of that done by machine and that stickier subject on top of that. And the author dismissed all of that with the "it just is" handwave. This was a published book, BTW. The author got away with it, and probably sold a bunch of copies besides (it even says she was a NYT bestselling author on the front of it, so widely accepted, it seems - although the book reading populace seems to be dumber than the average BZP debater in general, although that's probably not true).

If an author can do that, how much easier is it to handwave details of the giant robot? If anything, we have more explanation for how that could work. I mean, it's not out of the question for humans to built giant robots, we just haven't bothered. 40 meters tall giant robot is not really impressive. A 40 million foot tall giant robot is out there - whoa, how big is that THING? With an universe inside of it. How is that possible - we have protodermis, and Great Beings, and hardworking Matoran, and gravity absorption powers. Do we really have to overthink the wheel?

 

I really do not understand the taste setup that requires the bot be smaller - perhaps because I'm a writer, and I think "cool concept" instead of "yikes, physics disaster". Oh well. I'm sure that one day there will be a writer with a physics degree, but it won't be me. Too many headaches. 

[Regitnui]

I was the one who said we don't know what EP can't do. Honestly, we can't. the only guideline we've been given is; " It creates or destroys depending on destiny". So it very well could have imparted to the core of SM a lesser gravity or anti-gravity properties. If it was the planet's destiny to hold life, then EP would have made it habitable. If it was it's destiny to turn into a second sun, than EP would have done so.  That's the simplest and best explanation for the gravitational 'problem' everyone seems to think is one of the greatest dangling plot threads in Gen1.

 

As for the GSR, this seems like another version of 'I think it's a problem and I have a solution'. Let's not forget, the GSR was designed to drop down on similar planets to SM and not disturb any potential locals. Who's to say it doesn't have kinetic dampening and light refracting technology built into its skin? Both invisibility and gravity are powers within the MU, so who's to say the GSR that contained that universe didn't have some variation on the abilities granted to the beings within?

[bonesiii]

But it would work, right? Better than using thrusters in the feet to combat the pull of the planet, yes?

If he'd landed on solid land all the time only, it would, but even there, one slip and he would be powerless to stop a quake. If he uses kinetic dampening, he can stop quakes on land plus tsunamis from his main landing zone -- ocean.

 

 

I'm also not sure what the difference between an inverse gravity field and what you interpreted everyone else to be suggesting is... could you explain that?

 

Pulling up instead of down (inverse means opposite).

 

(I don't think there's a difference; I was describing my understanding of what they seemed to be saying. )

 

 

I thought we were at set size

 

For Toa, yes, but Kofo-Jaga are small compared to Toa.

 

 

I was referring to the complexity of biological cloning (an already complex subject), compounded with a severe programming challenge, compounded by having all of that done by machine and that stickier subject on top of that.

 

Alright, but that seems like a different subject than what we're talking about. Those things are still explanations, it just means there's a lot of work involved to figure out specifics within what we already understand how to do -- how to manipulate cellular chemistry by moving it around, how to write programming in general, and making machines that do those things. I think we were talking about no explanations at all for some things.

 

 

I really do not understand the taste setup that requires the bot be smaller - perhaps because I'm a writer, and I think "cool concept" instead of "yikes, physics disaster".

 

Yeah, it's like the Enterprise on Star Trek. At first glance, that looks like an absolutely awful design for a spaceship. If the nacelles were thrusters, it would spin in a circle. There's no balance. Plus, the unnecessarily thin struts produce mechanical stresses that are also unneeded since a more compact design would have much less of that.

 

But it LOOKS really cool, so most people accept it... and some vague futuristic (unknown how they work) explanations are given -- it's not thrusters, it's warp drive and that works differently somehow, and they have inertial dampeners and hull integrity fields. Made up stuff defending a ship design invented to look cool. And people generally accept it.

 

(Now I'm not saying nobody ever complains about that shape, because I don't frequent their boards, and it's a much older story now. But point is, this IS widely accepted and it involves not knowing how it's possible. And that's kind of the point -- it isn't meant to be something we can understand, it's meant to be super-futuristic describing inventions we haven't thought of how to do yet.)

Edited April 17, 2015 by bonesiii

[SailorQuaoar]

The new video of the Mata Nui robot posted by Christian Faber seems to seal the deal about how big it really was.

 

The GSR is quite clearly smaller than the earth, and the measurements created by Faber were used in the "Mata Nui Rising" video.

 

Because the evidence for a smaller GSR is much more substantial (concept art along with a test video deliberately made to establish scale) over evidence suggesting a larger one (one number from GregF), I'd say that Faber's measurements are the legitimate ones.

Edited April 19, 2015 by SailorQuaoar

[The 1st Shadow]

The new video of the Mata Nui robot posted by Christian Faber seems to seal the deal about how big it really was.

 

*ahem* After reading the caption that went along with the video, I'm going to question its accuracy.

 

I quote:

 

This is an old piece of preview animation made for fun to showcase the size relation between Mata Nui and Earth, given that a Toa was 2,3 meter high. Thak you Ghost for your great sense of humour through all the years of 3D production.

 

To me, it just sounds like it was done without giving a lot of thought to the actual dimensions of the thing, and just showing one early interpretation of it.

 

Also, the video was presumably made years before the reveal, as we know they had a 3D render of the GSR from way back in the planning stages.

Edited April 19, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[fishers64]

 

 

This animation preview was made for fun by Ghost to showcase the size relation between Mata Nui and Earth given that a Toa was approximately 2.3 M high.

 

Not sure what the size of Toa has anything to do with it.

 

Anyway, the Faber stuff is all preliminary concept work, not the final product, and as such isn't canon. It's like if I release one of my "icicle" type scenes (that I sometimes write before I get my notes established to test things out). Judging the final work on those crude efforts is a waste of time. 

[bonesiii]

Sailor, Faber primarily did concept work, and I highly doubt he was trying to counter the later official size of the bot by releasing any of the early versions. Please don't try to turn the awesomeness he gives us into some kind of "versus" thing. Yes, the original concepts were smaller than what Greg chose -- that's old news -- but that doesn't change that Greg decides what the canon size is. (And you can't just sweep all the other factors away as not being greater evidence anyways.)

[ALVIS]

Hey, would you look at that -- I can bold things, too.

 

This is an old piece of preview animation made for fun to showcase the size relation between Mata Nui and Earth, given that a Toa was 2,3 meter high. Thak you Ghost for your great sense of humour through all the years of 3D production.

 

Seems to me that showcasing the actual size of the Great Spirit Robot was the entire point of this video. The "fun" and "sense of humor" comments refer to the silly way in which the animator chose to show those proportions, but they do not in any way invalidate the information presented. Deal with it.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ALVIS

[bonesiii]

Alvis, it's showcasing the concept version of the size, not the final official size. And we already had art showcasing a smaller size, also shown on Faber's site (but showing him curling into a ball in space mode -- this is early). Again, Christian Faber releases primarily concept work, and was not trying to consider all the factors the canon needed like continents inside, etc. Acting like it's certain isn't going to change any of that (and if I may add, is not wise behavior -- we don't need people adding to the trend some have followied of turning this into a subject to fight about).

 

And again, Greg is in charge of the canon, and he did give us the final size.

 

 

BTW, the relation of Toa height to this is almost certainly based on the number in the concept art linked above and the size of Earth. The "based on" here doesn't mean there's some kind of "higher canon" number comparing official giant size to official Toa in-story; it just means "based on" for the purposes of getting the smaller concept size compared to Earth. Pretty simple.

 

(Although I haven't run the math of that myself. Anyone wanna try and see if that's it? )

Edited April 20, 2015 by bonesiii

[SailorQuaoar]

Alvis, it's showcasing the concept version of the size, not the final official size. And we already had art showcasing a smaller size, also shown on Faber's site (but showing him curling into a ball in space mode -- this is early). Again, Christian Faber releases primarily concept work, and was not trying to consider all the factors the canon needed like continents inside, etc. Acting like it's certain isn't going to change any of that (and if I may add, is not wise behavior -- we don't need people adding to the trend some have followied of turning this into a subject to fight about).

 

And again, Greg is in charge of the canon, and he did give us the final size.

 

 

BTW, the relation of Toa height to this is almost certainly based on the number in the concept art linked above and the size of Earth. The "based on" here doesn't mean there's some kind of "higher canon" number comparing official giant size to official Toa in-story; it just means "based on" for the purposes of getting the smaller concept size compared to Earth. Pretty simple.

 

(Although I haven't run the math of that myself. Anyone wanna try and see if that's it? )

Greg is a decent writer. But he has never been good with numbers and scale. Greg has even said that he doesn't think specially when he writes. The 40 million number in his mind was just something that sounded really really big. He didn't actually think about just how big 40 million feet was.

 

Not to mention that Greg's own numbers contradict themselves. If the MU was really bigger than Earth, then why does Metru Nui (the largest city and hub of Matoran culture) only have 1,000 residents?

 

Even with other Matoran living elsewhere, Metru Nui's population would be ridiculously small.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Not to mention that Greg's own numbers contradict themselves. If the MU was really bigger than Earth, then why does Metru Nui (the largest city and hub of Matoran culture) only have 1,000 residents?

 

Even with other Matoran living elsewhere, Metru Nui's population would be ridiculously small.

 

Most of Metru Nui is actually automated. Plus, it's a lot smaller than you might think. First, you have the hull of the GSR's head. Then, you have miles of rock layer (we know it to be miles because of the Toa Metru's journey through it). This is followed by the Silver Sea, which is pretty big on its own merit, surrounding the island. Then we finally come to the island, much of which is automated, some of which is open areas (deserts and Sculpture fields of Po-Metru, the forest seen during one scene in Web of Shadows, and the frozen wasteland where Keetongu hid. So, not all of the island was fully populated to begin with. See? The island is the perfect size for the robot's head.

 

Another thought: Notice on the official maps of Metru Nui, it almost resembles Venice, with a bunch of land-based streets and buildings, but otherwise many inlets of seawater entering city limits. If this is an accurate depiction, then there isn't a lot of land on which the Matoran would live to begin with.

Edited April 20, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[SailorQuaoar]

 

 

Not to mention that Greg's own numbers contradict themselves. If the MU was really bigger than Earth, then why does Metru Nui (the largest city and hub of Matoran culture) only have 1,000 residents?

 

Even with other Matoran living elsewhere, Metru Nui's population would be ridiculously small.

 

Most of Metru Nui is actually automated. Plus, it's a lot smaller than you might think. First, you have the hull of the GSR's head. Then, you have miles of rock layer (we know it to be miles because of the Toa Metru's journey through it). This is followed by the Silver Sea, which is pretty big on its own merit, surrounding the island. Then we finally come to the island, much of which is automated, some of which is open areas (deserts and Sculpture fields of Po-Metru, the forest seen during one scene in Web of Shadows, and the frozen wasteland where Keetongu hid. So, not all of the island was fully populated to begin with. See? The island is the perfect size for the robot's head.

 

Another thought: Notice on the official maps of Metru Nui, it almost resembles Venice, with a bunch of land-based streets and buildings, but otherwise many inlets of seawater entering city limits. If this is an accurate depiction, then there isn't a lot of land on which the Matoran would live to begin with.

 

The whole point of the Matoran's existence was that they had to physically work to keep Mata Nui alive. Metru Nui's work being mostly automated kind of defeats that purpose. Not to mention that the Matoran are Mata Nui's "cells". Why would a body that big have so few cells?

 

Of course not every number in Bionicle works out. And it is fantasy so a few things can slide by.

 

But the smaller scale version of the GSR solves so many problems with scale in Bionicle.

- the low population density of Matoran

- the fact that two giant robots were able to battle on the surface of a planet without completely destroying it

- the size of Mata Nui the island (it's roughly the size of Demark. Since the island is bigger than Mata Nui's head, in Gregscale it would have to be about the size of Australia. And at that point it's not an island, it's a continent)

 

Now you might be asking how the Southern Continent fits into all this. The Southern Continent to us is really more like a very large island. But the Matoran consider it a continent because most other islands in their world were very small.

 

Considering what we know about the population of the Matoran Universe, everything can fit comfortably in the smaller robot. If Matoran are the most populous race and there's only a few thousand of them, there's probably even less of the other species.

The other species can fit in the leg islands if need be. it was really odd that they were never explored in canon...you'd think someone would get the idea during 100,000 years.

Not to mention that the MU is a constructed world. Building a world way larger than your inhabitants need is inefficient building.

 

The two major arguments that I see supporting 40 million feet are "the MU has continents" and "Greg said it and he knows best". The size of the continents are relative as I mentioned before.

 

Now as for Greg's word on canon, we have established before that he is not a mathematician, designer, or architect. He thinks in words, not pictures. Greg is also human like us, and humans can make mistakes.

 

Think of it like this. You're in college and you need help on your Biology research project. You want to go to one of your friends for advice. Would you ask the science major or the English major? Obviously the science major since it's their area of expertise.

 

Asking Greg questions about scale and numbers is like asking a car mechanic questions about makeup and fashion. He has no experience with it so you're not gonna get an answer that makes much sense.

 

But Faber is an artist and a designer. He thinks visually. It's his job to turn concepts into reality. And while the Mata Nui robot was never going to become reality, Faber's art and video show that a lot of thought went into making the size and scale of the Mata Nui robot seem believable, especially with using real-world locations for reference.

 

Greg's measurements came from a number that he thought would sound big and impressive. Faber's measurements had a lot more thought and effort put into them, and both the Mata Nui Rising video and the Journey's End comic support this scale.

 

Faber's measurements have a lot more evidence backing them up than Greg's and that's why I strongly believe they should be the "canon" ones.

[The 1st Shadow]

The whole point of the Matoran's existence was that they had to physically work to keep Mata Nui alive. Metru Nui's work being mostly automated kind of defeats that purpose. Not to mention that the Matoran are Mata Nui's "cells". Why would a body that big have so few cells?

 

 

I'm gonna stop you right there.

 

You're familiar with a factory setting, yes? Factory with big machines that produce large quantities of products. Question: Who turns on the machines? Who does the repair?

 

If we look at Metru Nui as a giant factory, then we can say with full confidence that the Matoran serve the purpose of turning on said machines and doing the necessary repairs. Some jobs, like mask-making and teaching, are directly related to the population that manages the city.

[IcarusBen]

I just saw the new Turaga File on Mata Nui and Denmark. That's... actually a lot better than Greg's number. 3000km is a far more reasonable number than 40 million feet. 

 

Again, Greg has no sense of scale. Faber, on the other hand, does. Yet Greg's number is canon, while Faber's isn't. It's still impossibly big by real-world standard, but at least it's better than Greg's idea of scale.