Unwise Vakama

[Toatapio Nuva]

So, I was thinking about Vakama's life as a mask-maker, then about how he had no idea about the mask powers he and the other Toa Metru wore. I know this has been answered in the distant past or at least thought about, but what logical explanation is there for this? Why didn't recognize he the masks?

[Makuta Matata]

Maybe he never made masks that simple? Maybe he was usually needed for more specialized masks.

[maxim21]

If I remember well, masks haven't a predetermined form. And Great Masks need really powerful Kanoka disks to be made. It would be strange he never made such masks, if he is one of the greatest maskmaker, though.Maybe he didn't think to even try to recognize?

[Paleo]

Maybe he never made masks that simple? Maybe he was usually needed for more specialized masks.

This seems unlikely. Vakama most likely started as a basic mask maker like everyone else and then gradually risen in the ranks.

If I remember well, masks haven't a predetermined form. And Great Masks need really powerful Kanoka disks to be made. It would be strange he never made such masks, if he is one of the greatest maskmaker, though.Maybe he didn't think to even try to recognize?

I believe Kanohi actually do have specific forms, but can vary slightly. You make a good point in that Vakama might not have tried to recognize. He was most likely jarred already by the experience of being a Toa.

[Kumata]

I thought it was said that the Great versions of those masks were rarely seen on Metru Nui.

[Paleo]

I thought it was said that the Great versions of those masks were rarely seen on Metru Nui.

Probably. Checking BS01…Well, it seems that there isn't anything on the Metru Nui or Kanohi pages, but I did find this little tidbit on the Vakama page:

The Turaga then tested the Toa Metru using the obstacles set around the stadium. They failed his test however, due to being drained of their Elemental Powers after the battles with Krahka and the Morbuzakh, and with their current inability to access their Kanohi powers.

So it seems that the Toa Metru were unable to access their Kanohi powers. It's possible that Vakama did know what Great Masks they were, but didn't share the information because it wouldn't get them anywhere.I also found this quote on the Toa page:

Toa must train in order to access their Kanohi powers, or be forced to use them in stress-inducing situations.

I also found a correction to my previous statement about mask shapes:

They can be in any shape or form, but throughout the Matoran Universe, mask makers have adopted specific shapes for certain powers, in order to avoid confusion if a Toa is in dire need of a mask.

Hope that helps the discussion.

[Baron Von Nebula]

Maybe destiny helped out so he never encountered those six masks. It took the Makuta and Nuva a while to realize Toa Ignika had the Ignika, so maybe Vakama was thinking "I knew it!" when the masks were revealed.

[Paleo]

It took the Makuta and Nuva a while to realize Toa Ignika had the Ignika,

Actually, the Toa Nuva didn't recognize the Ignika because they had never seen it. Only the Mahri and Jovan's team had.

[Taipu1]

So it seems that the Toa Metru were unable to access their Kanohi powers. It's possible that Vakama did know what Great Masks they were, but didn't share the information because it wouldn't get them anywhere.

That sounds most likely to me. After all Vakama hardly seemed surprised at any of the others powers in LoMN. More depressed. Certainly he seemed to know the capabilities of his mask the moment he gained access to it's power. Also, possibly entirely irrelevant, as not everything in the movies is canon, and also they aren't continuous, but in LoMN when Vakama goes "Get me up there!" to Nuju so that he can get onto the cliff to fight Makuta, he had never seen Nuju using his Mask power before. This would suggest he already knew what it did. But like I said, films aren't continuous, there could easily have been a scene skipped over where they all demonstrated or discussed their mask powers.

[bonesiii]

All I remember is that there WAS an answer that somehow made sense, but I forget what it was. Kumata's answer seems to fit most of what we know best though:

I thought it was said that the Great versions of those masks were rarely seen on Metru Nui.

It's also plausible that he did know, and maybe even they all knew, just that they knew the names, but not really what they did, so they still had to figure out what the names meant. Some of their lines would have to be declared non-canon for that to be true, though. But most of their actions would still work. It does seem unlikely to me that those shapes were unheard of in Metru Nui, especially since it was said other places, like the continents, traded with the city often.

[Makuta Matata]

If I remember well, masks haven't a predetermined form. And Great Masks need really powerful Kanoka disks to be made. It would be strange he never made such masks, if he is one of the greatest maskmaker, though. Maybe he didn't think to even try to recognize?

Well, many of the Matoran on Metru Nui wore those masks, so I'd think that Vakama would recognize those masks.

[T.B.O.C]

I'd also think he'd recognize the fact he'd been wearing a Matoran Huna for quite some time. I think what's most likely is that he was so jarred by becoming a Toa that he didn't think to look at it to determine it. He also really wouldn't have had time to take off his mask and analyze it. Also, because they were constantly on the run from Vahki and Dark Hunters, he may not of remembered something so glaringly obvious to him.

[All Or None]

I'd like to point out a few possibilities:First, Vakama may not have necessarily worked with the powers very often. In other words, he may have looked at Nokama's mask and thought "Remove Poison and Enlarge" but not necessarily known what the resulting power was.Second, it may be that Vakama just doesn't know them off the top of his head. I had to look up on BS01 to get the example of Nokama's mask. Given that there could be hundreds of different kinds of masks, it may well be that Vakama needs some sort of guide to keep them straight and he just didn't have access to one.And yeah, while Vakama and some of the others may have actually known, we know for a fact that Whenua at least didn't know his mask power until he activated it, because in Adventures #1 he was grumbling to the reader about not knowing it (and whether it might have been useful) while he was trying to get into the Archives to find Tehutti.

[T.B.O.C]

I'd like to point out a few possibilities:First, Vakama may not have necessarily worked with the powers very often. In other words, he may have looked at Nokama's mask and thought "Remove Poison and Enlarge" but not necessarily known what the resulting power was.Second, it may be that Vakama just doesn't know them off the top of his head. I had to look up on BS01 to get the example of Nokama's mask. Given that there could be hundreds of different kinds of masks, it may well be that Vakama needs some sort of guide to keep them straight and he just didn't have access to one.And yeah, while Vakama and some of the others may have actually known, we know for a fact that Whenua at least didn't know his mask power until he activated it, because in Adventures #1 he was grumbling to the reader about not knowing it (and whether it might have been useful) while he was trying to get into the Archives to find Tehutti.

I'd think he'd know the resulting creation, though, as he'd remember that Enlarge and Remove Poison make a Mask of Translation (which kinda makes no sense, thinking about it) But the disk powers might come to him first.He also commonly made matoran masks, which can be very different from the Great variations, specifically his own mask, which loooks more like a Ruru to me.

[All Or None]

I'd think he'd know the resulting creation, though, as he'd remember that Enlarge and Remove Poison make a Mask of Translation (which kinda makes no sense, thinking about it) But the disk powers might come to him first.He also commonly made matoran masks, which can be very different from the Great variations, specifically his own mask, which loooks more like a Ruru to me.

The first possibility that I suggested meant that he may have known what disks are commonly carved into those shapes, but not necessarily known what powers they produced. And let's face it: Enlarging and Removing Poison adding up to Translation is kinda... weird. He may well have thought Nokama had a mask of Density Control, a far more logical conclusion.Even if we assume he would know the resulting power, I'm not sure that we actually DO know that those twelve masks are too common on Metru Nui. It may well be that, by "coincidence" (meaning those were the only masks available at the time), we've only seen Matoran from Metru Nui wearing those masks, but other masks are just as common. If you took six random masks from a pool of, let's say, 100 kinds of masks (not an unreasonable number, with 1,000 Matoran, maybe even a little small), even if you've memorized a few dozen, the odds are still that you wouldn't recognize them all, fitting into my second possibility.

[bonesiii]

Enlarge and Remove Poison make a Mask of Translation (which kinda makes no sense, thinking about it)

This is kinda off-topic, but my cyberclay theory includes a way for that to work, basically that each power is made up of a string of code, and mixing them mixes parts of the code in predictable ways. In computer code often basic functions can be applied as parts of a wide variety of overall purposes, many that might seem unrelated on a superficial level.On-topic: I think that makes sense, about not knowing what the actual powers did, because Metru Nui Matoran were portrayed as almost always using the basic eight powers for Kanoka. Vakama might also be only into making Matoran masks for the most part, although admittedly it's strange that Makuta would then come to him for a Mask of Time.But... another possibility is that they were simply not assuming the Matoran shapes were the actual powers they had. Matoran masks need not be shaped according to actual mixtures. Vakama might know that better than most, in fact. Maybe he normally uses whatever basic Kanoka is on hand to make whatever shape the customer wants. Since the powers are totally drained to make Matoran masks anyways, why not? So he might have suspected which powers were which based on the shapes but thought it was too unlikely to bother mentioning.And actually I think I vaguely remember that that might have been the canon answer.

[T.B.O.C]

I'd think he'd know the resulting creation, though, as he'd remember that Enlarge and Remove Poison make a Mask of Translation (which kinda makes no sense, thinking about it) But the disk powers might come to him first.He also commonly made matoran masks, which can be very different from the Great variations, specifically his own mask, which loooks more like a Ruru to me.

The first possibility that I suggested meant that he may have known what disks are commonly carved into those shapes, but not necessarily known what powers they produced. And let's face it: Enlarging and Removing Poison adding up to Translation is kinda... weird. He may well have thought Nokama had a mask of Density Control, a far more logical conclusion.Even if we assume he would know the resulting power, I'm not sure that we actually DO know that those twelve masks are too common on Metru Nui. It may well be that, by "coincidence" (meaning those were the only masks available at the time), we've only seen Matoran from Metru Nui wearing those masks, but other masks are just as common. If you took six random masks from a pool of, let's say, 100 kinds of masks (not an unreasonable number, with 1,000 Matoran, maybe even a little small), even if you've memorized a few dozen, the odds are still that you wouldn't recognize them all, fitting into my second possibility.

I think the reason these masks weren't seen to often is because after 2001-2004, we didn't really focus on the matoran (2006 is an exception, and 2007, but they were about the characters, not their masks, and they weren't focused on as much as the Matoran of Mata Nui.) I mean, besides one of two new masks drawn on some freaky background matoran, how often did you look up and realize Piruk wore a matoran Mahiki? (which might not even be a mahiki) It can be assumed that these masks were worn in other places more, but e just have no knowledge really of what different matoran wore and where they did.

Enlarge and Remove Poison make a Mask of Translation (which kinda makes no sense, thinking about it)

This is kinda off-topic, but my cyberclay theory includes a way for that to work, basically that each power is made up of a string of code, and mixing them mixes parts of the code in predictable ways. In computer code often basic functions can be applied as parts of a wide variety of overall purposes, many that might seem unrelated on a superficial level.On-topic: I think that makes sense, about not knowing what the actual powers did, because Metru Nui Matoran were portrayed as almost always using the basic eight powers for Kanoka. Vakama might also be only into making Matoran masks for the most part, although admittedly it's strange that Makuta would then come to him for a Mask of Time.But... another possibility is that they were simply not assuming the Matoran shapes were the actual powers they had. Matoran masks need not be shaped according to actual mixtures. Vakama might know that better than most, in fact. Maybe he normally uses whatever basic Kanoka is on hand to make whatever shape the customer wants. Since the powers are totally drained to make Matoran masks anyways, why not? So he might have suspected which powers were which based on the shapes but thought it was too unlikely to bother mentioning.And actually I think I vaguely remember that that might have been the canon answer.

I should eventually read your cyberclay theory, it sounds very plausible and well-thought out, but that reasoning actually makes sense, different codes together making a different code that would equal a different power. The second paragraph would also make sense, considering Vakama's low self-esteem, he wouldn't have wanted to make assumptions that could have been wrong, as Matau or Onewa surely wouldn't have let him forget if he guessed wrong.As for the third paragraph, that is a possibility, though the combinations would still have the potential to become a Great mask of whatever the combo created, though, when you make matoran masks, it wouldn't matter that much, as you wouldn't suspect every one of you customers to become a Toa anytime soon. I also think Teridax came to Vakama for the Vahi, because he was sure Vakama would get it done better than other mask-makers, and on time.

[fishers64]

What I could find: QUOTE (jimmybob) 1A.) Just wondering: I could buy that, say, Onewa wouldn't know what a Great Komau or other mask looked like. But since Vakama was a mask maker, shouldn't he know what all of their masks do when he sees them? 1B.) Or is it that they know what powers their masks have, they are only not able to access them until the movie? (Like knowing the 'what,' just not the 'how'.) Thanks a lot QUOTE (Greg F) 1) Not really. It's established in the original script of the movie that Vakama has not made very many Great Masks before he is asked to make the Mask of Time. 2) It's established in the novels and in the movie that they do not know what their mask powers are. At one point in the film, Matau mistakenly believes his mask lets him fly.

Edited March 14, 2012 by fishers64

[T.B.O.C]

What I could find: QUOTE (jimmybob) 1A.) Just wondering: I could buy that, say, Onewa wouldn't know what a Great Komau or other mask looked like. But since Vakama was a mask maker, shouldn't he know what all of their masks do when he sees them? 1B.) Or is it that they know what powers their masks have, they are only not able to access them until the movie? (Like knowing the 'what,' just not the 'how'.) Thanks a lot QUOTE (Greg F) 1) Not really. It's established in the original script of the movie that Vakama has not made very many Great Masks before he is asked to make the Mask of Time. 2) It's established in the novels and in the movie that they do not know what their mask powers are. At one point in the film, Matau mistakenly believes his mask lets him fly.

That is a good point, and we've debated before that he hadn't really made many Great Masks, so I guess we were almost spot on there. The Matau part is a goos point too, I remember the face smash into a picture of Dume in the movie.