Dangerous Ta-Koro

[Toatapio Nuva]

It's me again, trying to find explanations to more loopholes in the story.This time the subject is Ta-Koro. It has been stated in the story many times that Ta-Koro is located inside the Mangai Volcano, which is the biggest volcano on Mata Nui and at its center. However, the old Mata Nui map depicts Ta-Koro being east from the Mangai volcano, not nowhere near inside it. Why is this? I can't find the map I'm talking about, but this one shows Ta-Koro being further east too.Here's another issue. If Ta-Koro really is in the Mangai Volcano (or any other volcano. We do know it's inside some volcano), how does it survive volcanic eruptions? For example in the third Bionicle comic in 2001, Triumph of the Toa, the Mangai volcano erupts and threatens to destroy a big part of Le-Wahi before Onua barricades the flowing lava. If Ta-Koro was inside that volcano, how could it survive a powerful eruption like that? And isn't it quite stressing to live inside a volcano that could erupt and destroy you any minute? Is there an explanation for this?BONUS+ for anyone who's reading this. If you want to find another hint from 2001 about the true nature of Mata Nui, just take a look at one of the old pictures of the island of Mata Nui and look south (at the ocean, not the island itself). Notice anything?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Toatapio Nuva

[Paleo]

Ta-Koro is not in the Mangai Volcano, as stated on its BS01 page.

Ta-Koro was the village of Fire on Mata Nui and home to the Ta-Matoran. It was located near the Mangai Volcano, and there was a bridge made up of multiple stones that could rise and sink into the lava.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Paleo

[Toa of Nerds]

From my understanding Ta-Koro was really close to the volcano but not actually inside of it. Building a village inside of a volcano wouldn't exactly be the smartest thing to do .-don't touch my pocket protector

[Toatapio Nuva]

Well, Ta-Koro was inside some volcano, if not Mangai itself. It's referred to as the Mangai Volcano in MNOG and Mask of Light. And that was why I started wondering where it actually was. But I guess Vakama found an inactive volcano and had the village built there.

[Makuta Matata]

BONUS+ for anyone who's reading this. If you want to find another hint from 2001 about the true nature of Mata Nui, just take a look at one of the old pictures of the island of Mata Nui and look south (at the ocean, not the island itself). Notice anything?

I don't see anything. You sure you're not imagining things?

[Dralcax]

It doesn't survive. Along came a Rahkshi and the whole thing sank.

[Taipu1]

Ta-koro was dangerously positioned, no doubt about it, and it eventually suffered for it. But the Matoran of fire were drawn to the heat, and probably have a significant amount of resistance to it. I can't see anyone being stupid enough to go Lava surfing if falling off resulted in death, so I always assumed that they had armour that protected them, mostly.As for it's position, it could be in a side vent of the Volcano, that way it could be in Mangai, but not in the crater. Also it would probably be inconvenient to build it right in the centre of the volcano, so the vent idea would seem likely to me.

[fishers64]

Ta-koro was dangerously positioned, no doubt about it, and it eventually suffered for it. But the Matoran of fire were drawn to the heat, and probably have a significant amount of resistance to it. I can't see anyone being stupid enough to go Lava surfing if falling off resulted in death, so I always assumed that they had armour that protected them, mostly.As for it's position, it could be in a side vent of the Volcano, that way it could be in Mangai, but not in the crater. Also it would probably be inconvenient to build it right in the centre of the volcano, so the vent idea would seem likely to me.

I concur that there likely was a side vent, but the village is in the middle of a lava pool, not the volcano itself. From the portrayal in MoL, I suspect that lava emitted from a side vent to the volcano, froming the lava lake around the city. This would place the back of the city to the side of the volcano. Also, we do have volcanoes on Earth that merely have lava flowing out without having violent eruptions. They do erupt, but when they do they just produce lava, not hurl rocks into the air and level entire landscapes (think Hawaii, after all, we are on an island). Such a style of volcano would be likely to crave caverns and have that sort of liquid lava that would be good for surfing.

[Taipu1]

I'm not sure how canon the Final Chronicle, and the Bohrok and Bohrok-Kal animations are, but I recall there was a precarious bridge going past a big waterfall of Lava (Lavafall? ). If this is presumably coming from the main part of the volcano, so this would also suggest that Ta-Koro is an area lower than the main lake of lava in the crater. This would imply a side vent or cave again, but like I say, I'm not sure how canon they are.

[fishers64]

I recall from MoL that Ta-Koro was not located inside a cave, cavern, or crater. Remember the "Toa of Water approaches" scene? And from that movie, there was a lavafall in the area, with a bridge on top...

[Taipu1]

I think the "Toa of water approaches" guard was on the outside wall, at the gate. The bridge that rises out of the Lava could lead inside the Volcano. However having just looked at a picture of the village in the movie, I can see that it's far too light to be in a cave. Also, looking on the MNOLG (technically not the Go-to place for canonicity, but ah well) the outergate seems to be outside the volcano, and the village itself in a crater. This could be a separate crater though, there is a big Volcanic looking ride going off to the right of the screen, which could be the main crater of Mangai.

[bonesiii]

It's actually very simple, but takes a bit of explaining. Let me walk you through the geography step by step.First, in the center of the island is the volcano.Next, one continuous lava flow heads east from near the top of the volcano, but this goes through a massive lava tube.This lava river continues east towards the coastline, still in the lava tube. In places it may come out of the tube and probably branches into at least two splits (according to one MNOG image). The northmost of these two apparently known splits has Ta-Koro in it.Now you reach a part of the lava tube with a big hole in the top. Directly underneath this is a big rock island in the lava river. Ta-Koro is on that island. What confuses people the most is that hole above it; they tend to think this is meant to be the Mangai's crater, but it's not. MNOG clearly depicts the river coming in from the west (left when facing Ta-Koro from the bridge, which points south), and leaving in the east.The bridge is made of several meltproof rocks with a meltproof base mechanism that enables them to rise up or sink, so you can get to a path to the south, which turns east to reach the coast.The lava river continues east in the tube, though it apparently jogs south a little and this path turns north again to cross over it while it's back in the lava tube. Then the river reaches the ocean to the east, while just north of that is a sandy beach (where Tahu landed).Finally, apparently another rock bridge crosses from the island over the north side of the lava river; this contains a dark tunnel which continues northwest from there until it reaches Onu-Koro.Not all of those details are necessarily canon, but they are "canon unless contradicted elsewhere" because that's how it's portrayed in the MNOG. The MOL depiction of Ta-Koro essentially fits with this as long as you understand the hole above Ta-Koro to be much wider than its portrayal in MNOG. So I would consider the answer to be the above but with a wide hole over Ta-Koro.And I don't know which sources you got "in the Mangai" from; I've heard people say that as a rumor at least, but I don't recall seeing it in a canon source, probably just my bad memory. But regardless, it can be considered "in" the volcano since it's in a lava tube that comes directly from it. But yes, that description is not the best canon explanation as it makes it sound like it's right in the Mangai's caldera. That's definitely false.The eruption in the comic is clearly shown to come down a different side of the volcano. This makes sense if you think about it since we know the continuous river is coming through a tube. At some point near the Mangai's crater this tube is probably filled to capacity with lava and thus an eruption will probably not be able to flood it. It might make the lava come out a little faster which might flood the river a little, but not enough to put the village in danger.So until the Rahkshi came along, if you were resistant to the heat as Ta-Matoran are, Ta-Koro was actually probably the safest place on the island -- everywhere else was more easily at risk from infected Rahi.

Edited March 17, 2012 by bonesiii

[Taipu1]

if you were resistant to the heat as Ta-Matoran are, Ta-Koro was actually probably the safest place on the island

I'm still not fully sure about the extent of this heat-resistance thing. Obviously they're resistant to the extreme heat of being in a Volcano, which probably makes the place a good 30 degrees warmer than normal, minimum. But are they resistant to heat in terms of actual contact with the Lava, because as I said previously, you would have to be unbelievably reckless to surf on Lava if falling off meant pretty much certain and instantaneous death.

[fishers64]

if you were resistant to the heat as Ta-Matoran are, Ta-Koro was actually probably the safest place on the island

I'm still not fully sure about the extent of this heat-resistance thing. Obviously they're resistant to the extreme heat of being in a Volcano, which probably makes the place a good 30 degrees warmer than normal, minimum. But are they resistant to heat in terms of actual contact with the Lava, because as I said previously, you would have to be unbelievably reckless to surf on Lava if falling off meant pretty much certain and instantaneous death.

Well, it is not exactly out of character for Ta-Matoran to be daring and reckless, although that characteristic is more accurately applied to Le-Matoran. Besides, I think the Ta-Matoran have skills. We're talking surfing in a calm and complacent river of lava, not MoL league stunts - that's a special case.

[T.B.O.C]

if you were resistant to the heat as Ta-Matoran are, Ta-Koro was actually probably the safest place on the island

I'm still not fully sure about the extent of this heat-resistance thing. Obviously they're resistant to the extreme heat of being in a Volcano, which probably makes the place a good 30 degrees warmer than normal, minimum. But are they resistant to heat in terms of actual contact with the Lava, because as I said previously, you would have to be unbelievably reckless to surf on Lava if falling off meant pretty much certain and instantaneous death.

I remember that lava-surfing accidents where almost always fatal, heat resistance they may have, but the molten protodermis would almost always melt them/kill the matoran. However, most lava-surfers were very skilled and had done it for a while, so they didn't fall in.

[bonesiii]

I doubt lava surfing accidents would be likely to be fatal. They have heat resistance plus armor, and can even remake limbs and stuff. I think they'd grab the board and force it under them really quick. They would be likely to produce serious injury, but not necessarily death. It could seriously deform their heads and torsos if those went under, though, and possibly some of that damage might not be reversible.Also, there is the fact that nobody died on Mata Nui Island, until Jaller. Seems unlikely there were no accidents in all that time. Also a non-Ta-Matoran (though we didn't know that at the time), Takua, pulled a mask out of lava and just acted like it was a little hot. Neither the mask nor his hand melted. I think the answer here might involve different physics of protodermis. Maybe by the time the lava gets up to the Mangai it's considerably cooled compared to Ta-Metru's molten protodermis, and is just barely still liquid, and maybe the solidifying point is a lot lower than for real-world rock.

[Thunder on the Mountain]

Also, there is the fact that nobody died on Mata Nui Island

A bit off topic, but are you sure about that? Pretty sure MNOG makes some references to the deaths of guardsmen more than once.

[Katuko]

Lava surfing was definitely fatal, as I recall no one wanted to get caught in lava, not even Tahu. Otherwise there would be no point for them to mention the dangers of lava-surfing (I know I have read in at least one official source that it was dangerous even for Ta-Matoran, though regrettably I can't find it online right now); and Tahu would not have thrown a shield around them when they were hanging from the cliff in Mask of Light. Also, earlier in that scene: Takua clearly does not want to even touch the lava at any point, as he stops himself from reaching into it, and he is terrified when he sees it coming towards him. He pulls the mask out by touching the top of it so that he can drag it ashore.It's curious that the Avokhii did not melt, given that Tahu's Kanohi Nuva did when Ta-Koro sank. I'm guessing that the rock shell protected it long enough so that Takua could pull it ashore. Aside note: Tahu melted Nektann's armor in their fight on Bara Magna, and other beings have melted metal as well. It stands to reason that lava (molten rock) would be able to destroy even a bio-mechanical being rather easily. Jaller even says "you could have been lava-bones" and for a moment considers Takua dead and gone (though that might be from seeing him fall off the edge).As for the guardsmen: Jala/Jaller does say they lost a patrol or two to the Makuta, but that might be seen as non-canon. We could consider them infected or captured for a time, though, as an alternative to death.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Katuko

[Nick Silverpen]

What is the hint about Mata Nui's true nature? All the old photos cut off just after the kumu islets, there's not much ocean shown...

[Toatapio Nuva]

Bonesii's explanation makes a lot of sense.In MoL, after Jaller and Takua have met Kopaka, the scene closes in on the Mangai Volcano, after which we see Tahu mourning for the loss of Ta-Koro. In MNOG, Vakama talks about the Mangai Volcano "in which shadow we live". However, now I realize neither of them probably directly referred to Ta-Koro being in the Mangai. And if it is a side tunnel of the Mangai or something, then the MNOG comment might still be accurate. It doesn't have to be in the crater.As for the hint of Mata Nui's true nature, note that the water in the south is clearly lighter in color, which means more shallow. In the north the water is dark blue, where the ocean is deep. Clearly a hint of the fact there's a giant robot lying in the ocean. This might not be as clear in some pictures as it is in others. A booklet I have from the 2001 card game has a picture of Mata Nui where the difference is very clear.

[Axilus Prime]

It was near the lava flows, which branch out from the Mangai, the only volcano on Mata Nui. It was practically surrounded by a moat of lava. The exact reason Vakama picked that spot. Even in MNOG, when you walk into Ta-Koro you see the Mangai in the background. As for the lava surfing, I would compare its effects to its effects on a hulking mass of metal (which, 15% organics aside, the Matoran practically are) Depending on how long and how much of their body is in the lava, the effects could be anything from "Ow!" (MOL Takua) to Darth Vader (Ever seen Revenge of the Sith?)

[bonesiii]

Also, there is the fact that nobody died on Mata Nui Island

A bit off topic, but are you sure about that? Pretty sure MNOG makes some references to the deaths of guardsmen more than once.

No, he says that some guards he sent to the Tren Krom Pass in Ko-Wahi have gone missing. I forget the exact wording, but the key is that later on these guards are found frozen by Kopeke (who Takua as gameplayer also finds frozen, and thaws with a heatstone), and Kopeke goes on to thaw those guards too. They rejoin the force and are apparently among the Ta-Matoran who show up at Kini-Nui to help the Chronicler's company.And yes, I'm sure; Greg confirmed it.

Lava surfing was definitely fatal, as I recall no one wanted to get caught in lava, not even Tahu. Otherwise there would be no point for them to mention the dangers of lava-surfing

What do you mean? Lava surfing isn't fatal if they don't fall in. I assume you meant falling off the board. And I would agree that IF for example they fell in at a wide spot and the board shot away so they couldn't quickly reach it it probably would be fatal, but not instantly. But apparently that extreme scenario never happened, and they were usually surfing, apparently, in a relatively narrow lava stream so could quickly get to the edge, or always had their board still in reach. So falling off likely can't be instantly fatal.And that certainly doesn't negate the dangers. If something is not instantly fatal, but will seriously disfigure you, and WILL be fatal within a few seconds, surely you would think twice before doing it?

(I know I have read in at least one official source that it was dangerous even for Ta-Matoran, though regrettably I can't find it online right now); and Tahu would not have thrown a shield around them when they were hanging from the cliff in Mask of Light.

I'm talking about armor instantly starting to melt, though. Fatal or not you would want to shield against that.

Also, earlier in that scene: Takua clearly does not want to even touch the lava at any point, as he stops himself from reaching into it, and he is terrified when he sees it coming towards him. He pulls the mask out by touching the top of it so that he can drag it ashore.It's curious that the Avokhii did not melt, given that Tahu's Kanohi Nuva did when Ta-Koro sank. I'm guessing that the rock shell protected it long enough so that Takua could pull it ashore.

It did. And I'm saying it's likely their armor would do the same for them in many situations for maybe a second or two. And it's not curious compared to the Kanohi Nuva. Think about it -- "wouldn't be fatal instantly" doesn't equate to "would never melt at all". Those masks were left in there permanently so however much time it takes to melt them, they were there for that time.

Aside note: Tahu melted Nektann's armor in their fight on Bara Magna, and other beings have melted metal as well. It stands to reason that lava (molten rock) would be able to destroy even a bio-mechanical being rather easily. Jaller even says "you could have been lava-bones" and for a moment considers Takua dead and gone (though that might be from seeing him fall off the edge).

None of this argues against time of exposure being a factor. If everything I said is true, then Tahu can still melt armor (and that's not really relevant anyways since he controls heat; we can't assume lava's heat level is his upper level), and lava can destroy biomechanical beings easily. Falling in would be extremely dangerous, but not instant death.Think about it, if it was instant death do you really think Vakama would allow it?Also, as far as I recall, they usually described it as "dangerous." I don't recall the word "deadly" being used, which would more strongly imply instant death.

[Katuko]

No, he says that some guards he sent to the Tren Krom Pass in Ko-Wahi have gone missing. I forget the exact wording, but the key is that later on these guards are found frozen by Kopeke (who Takua as gameplayer also finds frozen, and thaws with a heatstone), and Kopeke goes on to thaw those guards too. They rejoin the force and are apparently among the Ta-Matoran who show up at Kini-Nui to help the Chronicler's company.

Ah, you're right. I forgot about the first meeting with Kopeke.

Lava surfing was definitely fatal, as I recall no one wanted to get caught in lava, not even Tahu. Otherwise there would be no point for them to mention the dangers of lava-surfing

What do you mean? Lava surfing isn't fatal if they don't fall in. I assume you meant falling off the board. And I would agree that IF for example they fell in at a wide spot and the board shot away so they couldn't quickly reach it it probably would be fatal, but not instantly. But apparently that extreme scenario never happened, and they were usually surfing, apparently, in a relatively narrow lava stream so could quickly get to the edge, or always had their board still in reach. So falling off likely can't be instantly fatal.

Semantics, but yes, I meant falling off and "drowning" in it. In my book, if something can kill you in a few seconds, that is still pretty instantly lethal; whether or not it happened is actually irrelevant, since the question here is "can a Ta-Matoran survive lava?" Personally, I say no, but of course I agree that it would take a short while to melt the unfortunate being. It does that to humans too, to my knowledge. A person could touch lava and "only" have his outer flesh or protective suit melted off, but if he fell in, suit or not, he would most likely be dead before he had any chance of rescuing himself. A Matoran does have organic parts, and I would think they are not as heat-resistant as armor either. Once the lava gets through the outer shell/armor, you have one dead Matoran in my book.

[bonesiii]

My point is basically that this isn't real-world lava. It's protodermic lava, and it's quite possible that fictional physics, especially a lower melting/solidifying point, play a role here to make it not quite as immediately deadly as real lava would be.Besides, for us, just lava surfing period WOULD be fatal. The heat is so extreme we cannot stand near liquid lava. Even with protective suits we cannot stay near it very long, but they seem to be able to surf on this lava just fine for any amount of time as long as they don't touch it. And keep in mind Takua lava-surfed and he did not have Ta-Matoran heat resistance.This tells me it's likely a lot cooler than our lava has to be to be liquid.

Edited March 18, 2012 by bonesiii

[Kumata]

At this point I'd like to post a quote from Bionicle Legends#5. Vezon & Fenrakk have just fallen into a lava pool.

"And he took the Mask of Life with him," added Toa Jaller. "I have to go in there after it.""Jaller, no!" Said Hewkii. "You won't last more than ten seconds in that cauldron!""That's ten seconds longer than any of the rest of you would," the Toa leader answered. "With my natural resistance to heat and flame, maybe I can buy enough time to retrieve the mask and toss it to you."

So a Toa of Fire can last around ten seconds in lava. I doubt Ta-Matoran have the same degree of heat resistance, but even if they do, that's hardly any time at all. Enough to be considered immediately fatal, I'd say. Edited March 18, 2012 by Kumata

[Katuko]

That was my thoughts too.We have been given no indication that proto-lava is any different than normal lava, really. Plenty of media ignore the issue of heat emanating from lava pools, and treat the liquid itself as the only dangerous part.

[bonesiii]

That's referring to a different volcano. I'm talking about the lava from the Mangai, which has already had tons of distance to cool over the pipes from Ta-Metru (going all the way under the Silver Sea to the edge of the dome, and then up the dome), and also more time as it went through the lava tube. (At least assuming they don't start surfing right next to the volcano.) It's actually hard to imagine how it -wouldn't- cool. The lava Jaller and company were facing there was much closer to its source.And again, there are lots of indications it might be cooler while still being liquid. I just listed a bunch of 'em. But you know, I'm forgetting the biggest indication. I wasn't sure if I was remembering this right, so I checked on BS01, and it says:

Molten Protodermis: A type of purified Liquid Protodermis that has been heated

I remember Greg confirming this back in the day. So yes, not only do we have evidence, that's probably proof. Since we know the "lava" on Mata Nui was pumped from Ta-Metru. This would still be liquid even at room temperature, it just wouldn't be glowing anymore.Also, I believe Greg confirmed that molten protodermis in Metru Nui (and probably Voya Nui) is actually hotter than real lava, or at least extremely hot. Touching that, I agree, probably would be instant death. It was consistently portrayed that way in the Metru Nui flashbacks. So don't get me wrong; I'm not saying all proto-lava is cooler. Probably only the lava on Mata Nui, due to its uniquely long trip to get there.I'm not certain, but I think Voya Nui might have been actually melting solid protodermis, so that would also be a different kind of lava that's more like ours. And, for example, when Pahrak-Kal melted rock, that was more like our lava than what comes out of the Mangai.

[Kumata]

That's referring to a different volcano.

Actually, Jaller had just created the lava pool.Scratch that, he created a stream of molten rock which caused Fenrakk to slip into the main pool. Edited March 18, 2012 by Kumata

[Dralcax]

Maybe protodermis has a lower melting point, so proximity would cause discomfort in non-Ta-Matoran, but the heat is still enough to burn at a touch and melt armor, and instantly kill organics. Armor melts slower than in the real world, but, metal is an excellent conductor of heat, and the organics get toasted.

[Toa Zaz]

Probably just near the volcano. Seems kind of stupid to build a village in an active volcano, don't you think?

[bonesiii]

Maybe protodermis has a lower melting point, so proximity would cause discomfort in non-Ta-Matoran, but the heat is still enough to burn at a touch and melt armor, and instantly kill organics. Armor melts slower than in the real world, but, metal is an excellent conductor of heat, and the organics get toasted.

Actually it looks like what matters is not the melting point but the heating point. It would still be melted like water at room temperature -- at least the kind of "lava" that was pumped up to Mata Nui from Ta-Metru. And we do not have any idea where the heating point is. It might be more like boiling water, which will give serious burns but won't be likely to quickly kill anyone.Worth mentioning though that according to the most canon appearances (movie forms) they had gaps in their armor in places where the muscles were visible, so those wouldn't be protected even by the armor.

[The Swimming Beard]

I remember reading online that falling into lava caused instant death, but now I cannot find where I read that.