Ussanui

[Toatapio Nuva]

Hahli using the lift system wouldn't work since the Rahkshi had to destroy it in order to blow up the Suva Kaita.

[bonesiii]

Hahli using the lift system wouldn't work since the Rahkshi had to destroy it in order to blow up the Suva Kaita.

Again I must ask if that's confirmed, etc. They might have, but why would they have to? It ringed around the center, so they could have just flown up the center without touching the lift system. The Kaita (at least in previous portrayals) was sitting on the center spot, while the lifts were around it.

[fishers64]

In another topic, the subject of the battle between Makuta and Takanuva came up, that it didn't seem as spectacular as some hoped. I had pointed out that probably it went on for a lot longer than we saw; and after watching it again, I noticed that it went right from Hahli leaving and Takanuva and Makuta starting the match to Hahli climbing out of the hole, and talking to the Toa and Turaga. Can I assume a long period of time passed there, as she was climbing back up (it looked pretty long when the Ussa-Nui was flying along it), in which the battle between Makuta and Takanuva went on, but that part just wasn't shown? Same for the time period in which the Toa, Turaga, and Hahli were coming back? 6) Yes. Remember, we are always tight on time in these films. But you will be happy to know that the final battle in B2 is a lot more fleshed out and satisfying, I think.

So time may be a bit dilated, to allow for climbing, stair running, whatever. But I must take issue: The lifts, at least as portrayed by the MNOG, are around the Suva Kaita, not in the actual hole underneath. So the Rahkshi wouldn't have to destroy them, but I doubt Hahli could get to them. Climber or no, soild rock beats Ga-Matoran. Staircase I can go with, but elevator is a stretch, especially since she had to climb the last bit and the elevators clearly went all the way up and down.

Edited May 26, 2013 by fishers64

[Toatapio Nuva]

 

Hahli using the lift system wouldn't work since the Rahkshi had to destroy it in order to blow up the Suva Kaita.

Again I must ask if that's confirmed, etc. They might have, but why would they have to? It ringed around the center, so they could have just flown up the center without touching the lift system. The Kaita (at least in previous portrayals) was sitting on the center spot, while the lifts were around it.

 

Good point. I stand corrected.

 

Although in The Legend of Mata Nui, the Suva Kaita also descended with the Toa Mata to allow them to re-use the Makoki Stones for those Kaita chambers. But this is fottage from a cancelled game, so not sure if we can use that as evidence for anything.

[bohrokmaster]

I highly doubt that the matoran would lose their lives while traveling to Makuta's Lair and witness Takanuva's confrontation with Makuta Teridax. I hope it didn't happen in the official canon. :worried face:

Edited May 26, 2013 by bohrokmaster

[Katuko]

I highly doubt that the matoran would lose their lives while traveling to Makuta's Lair and witness Takanuva's confrontation with Makuta Teridax. I hope it didn't happen in the official canon. :worried face:

Official canon has them worried about getting trapped in Mangaia, with Makuta actually destroying the entrance behind them once they arrive. However, the only battle that took place was between Takanuva and Makuta, and no one lost their lives during that skirmish. Afterwards, it would have been a trivial task for the Toa to clear the way, and the comics show them back on the surface for a little while before everyone travels to Metru Nui. We also know that they must have returned to build boats that could take them across the Silver Sea.

 

But yeah, no one killed from that confrontation, unless you count Jaller beforehand (he got better) and Takanuva in the movie (he got better too).

[bohrokmaster]

Sorry I was meaning the matoran traveling to Makuta's Lair.

[Chro]

Sorry I was meaning the matoran traveling to Makuta's Lair.

The answer is still the same, none of them died on the way there... Edited May 29, 2013 by Chro

[slifer3000]

Well I think I'm a little late to throw two cents in about the climbing skills, but let's not forget, Greg has put emphasis on the physique of the Mata Nui Matoran. They were described as one of the most in-shape and apt Matoran in the MU in the book World.

 

It is possible that they had extreme stamina, allowing them to climb at a rate that might seem inconceivable to us. Also, they might have brought portable elevator systems that could carry five Matoran at a time. They might've taken 2 minutes to get down and back up, and what is the population of Mata-Nui? Let's say, a thousand? 50 of these elevators would take 250 matoran at a time. That'd be 7 minutes total, as we would exclude the last minute of them going back up, as the last group didn't send the lifts back up.

[Katuko]

It is possible that they had extreme stamina, allowing them to climb at a rate that might seem inconceivable to us. Also, they might have brought portable elevator systems that could carry five Matoran at a time. They might've taken 2 minutes to get down and back up, and what is the population of Mata-Nui? Let's say, a thousand? 50 of these elevators would take 250 matoran at a time. That'd be 7 minutes total, as we would exclude the last minute of them going back up, as the last group didn't send the lifts back up.

Can you even fit that many Matoran into the shaft at once? And why would they have brought makeshift elevators when they didn't have any intention of actually entering Mangaia until a few minutes prior? Setting up a makeshift elevator in the first place would likely take longer than a minute too.

[slifer3000]

Then they went to Onu-Koro and got some. It is the easiest to access of all the Koro. Tunnels run through the whole island.

[Katuko]

Those elevators do not look particularly portable, and and even if they were I'd wager it'd take far longer than 7 minutes to get 1000 Matoran from the surface and to the bottom of the shaft.

[Hexann]

 

So no, I refuse to accept "the next moment" as meaning anything but "within the next minute".

It can have relative uses too -- as in maybe the climb itself seemed short compared to the long run, as it would if she could climb at any decent pace (which is admittedly debatable). Keep in mind the main part of definition #1 listed on Dictionary.com:

 

>an indefinitely short period of time;

Clearly Hapka seems to have had in mind a few seconds, yes, but at least she didn't explicitly state that, so in this case we don't need to simply reject the word choice; we can just reinterpret it.

 

Anyways, it really doesn't matter much since Hapka's books contain other known errors, etc. so if you prefer to simply ignore that word choice that's fine too. That was mainly why I brought up that "burst" already doesn't fit the movie portrayal so the very same sentence has a clear difference that's less easily reinterpreted anyways. I would say that one has to be thrown out, so no harm in throwing "moment" out too, just food for thought. In general, an "I refuse" reaction is unwise on general principle. Better to think it through calmly.

 

By the way, I would not appeal to archaic uses as if they were universal definite measures of time. That's not the main meaning of the word now; it's intentionally vague nowadays. The fact that the word once meant something different from its main use now is only of trivial interest for etymology purposes, just as many other words used to mean things quite different (sometimes opposite of modern uses). The modern use usually means something that short but can be used in more poetic senses or in cases where you're contrasting a relatively short period of time with a particularly grueling long time (as running uphill for many miles in the dark probably would count as... but again, admittedly so would climbing up that hole as portrayed... ).

 

Also, it's pretty common for sayings like "We'll be with you in a moment" to turn into hours. Nobody likes that but it's well-known in our society. Again, not saying Hapka had more than a minute or two in mind but that it's within accepted ranges of usage in English, especially if comparative.

 

Given that the MNOLG and the Legend of Mata Nui clips both show a vertical descent, I imagine it was always intended.

Well, let's address this now, since we've only vaguely talked around it so far being distracted with other points -- is this the same tunnel that's been seen before? I seem to recall the Rahkshi blasting a new entrance themselves before the whole Jaller death scene. Is this that hole? If so then the MNOG and LoMataN portrayals of the route the Toa took at end of 2001 are irrelevant. Hapka may have read a script saying something like "Ussanui flies into hole Rahkshi previously dug" and interpreted it as a meandering cave.

 

Or it might be as vague as you said, just more food for thought.

 

 

 

 

 

And how did Hahli find her way back, anyway? She was in the trunk the whole time on the way there.

To spare complicating theories I'm just gonna say this: she could have opened the trunk.

Neither view really matters. Either way it's a dark cave with mazelike twists and turns (apparently; at least that's what others said, and I'm assuming they're right; the movie version isn't totally clear on this), so peeking out a trunk would not seem that helpful, as it would all look the same. But it wouldn't really be a problem because like I said, she'd know that uphill is the way back. She didn't need to see it to know that.

 

Well, wasn't the Ussanui basically radiating with light? I'm pretty sure it also had some headlights as well....

[bonesiii]

Well, wasn't the Ussanui basically radiating with light? I'm pretty sure it also had some headlights as well....

My point was (really, two points were) that 1) it's highly unlikely she could have memorized a way out just by looking at it (assuming it really is mazelike; the movie seems to almost show it as a tunnel with only really one way to go, though), and more importantly 2) there's no need to have her peeking out to enable her to head back since she'd just need to walk uphill.

 

The fact that it's dark wasn't really my point; I was just describing it. The lighting would be different, though, of Ussanui lights versus (presumably) a lightstone, so that doesn't seem to help make it more recognizeable.

 

Here's another factor -- it's been implied in a promo video that somewhere along the way there were actually a vast number of identical stone columns (the Takanuva/Rahkshi promos). Although the videos themselves are not canon, I have always preferred to see the location as accurate, and that the Ussanui at some point traveled past them. Seeing a bunch of identical stone columns out a crack while a stowaway on a vehicle isn't likely to be helpful.

 

And even if that's not canon, there's still probably a bunch of nearly identical natural columns, stalactites, and stalagmites. Occasionally you'd see some that were distinctive, but it's all rushing by so fast, you're unlikely to memorize them. (At least a human wouldn't be...)

[slifer3000]

Maybe the Ussanui left a path of light.

 

My guess: Teri made a labyrinth of illusion to make Takanuva think he was further underground, part of the faked loss strategy. Then, when Hahli went back to the surface, he showed the real path, a much more simple tunnel.

 

(also, bonesiii, i loved those promos and wished that that scenery was used in the Takanuva vs Teridax scene in MoL, those columns were so ominous and Makuta-like)

[Sir Kohran]

 

By the way, having rewatched the Kolhii battle part, I notice that Makuta was knocking down those weird green-glowing pillars, and yet there were still plenty left. Of course, that might have just been something he did for a few seconds, but it may imply the battle wasn't going on all that much longer.

 

If enough of these were destroyed, would the cavern collapse, like in the MNOLG Nui-Jaga bit? The impact of the Kohlii shots seemed pretty damaging and I doubt the rock walls could withstand it for very long.

 

 

I had pointed out that probably it went on for a lot longer than we saw; and after watching it again, I noticed that it went right from Hahli leaving and Takanuva and Makuta starting the match to Hahli climbing out of the hole, and talking to the Toa and Turaga. Can I assume a long period of time passed there, as she was climbing back up (it looked pretty long when the Ussa-Nui was flying along it), in which the battle between Makuta and Takanuva went on, but that part just wasn't shown? Same for the time period in which the Toa, Turaga, and Hahli were coming back? 6) Yes. Remember, we are always tight on time in these films. But you will be happy to know that the final battle in B2 is a lot more fleshed out and satisfying, I think.

 

The problem with this question is that it doesn't specify exactly what "a long period of time" is, so Farshtey could just say "yes" without it sounding unrealistic. For Hahli to find her way back through the caves, gather and build a heap of rocks tall enough to reach the bottom of the tunnel, then to climb up the deep tunnel's side, have the debate, the speech, and then the island's entire population descend, would take a number of hours at least. I find it inconceivable that the battle would've taken this long, for the reason given above and also because Takanuva or Makuta would surely have hit the other sooner or later.

 

 

Here's another factor -- it's been implied in a promo video that somewhere along the way there were actually a vast number of identical stone columns (the Takanuva/Rahkshi promos). Although the videos themselves are not canon, I have always preferred to see the location as accurate, and that the Ussanui at some point traveled past them.

 

I think that hall was meant to be a sort of Rahkshi training ground. I don't know where it is in relation to the lair, though.

[ToaKapura1234]

The problem with this question is that it doesn't specify exactly what "a long period of time" is, so Farshtey could just say "yes" without it sounding unrealistic. For Hahli to find her way back through the caves, gather and build a heap of rocks tall enough to reach the bottom of the tunnel, then to climb up the deep tunnel's side, have the debate, the speech, and then the island's entire population descend, would take a number of hours at least. I find it inconceivable that the battle would've taken this long, for the reason given above and also because Takanuva or Makuta would surely have hit the other sooner or later

Makuta could not get tired, so he was probably stalling. Takanuva could have just been very tired after the game ended. That could be why Makuta chose a Kolhiii match, to give an excuse to make the fight extremely long. And Makuta could have easily avoided being hit and avoided hitting Takanuva.

Edited May 30, 2013 by ToaKapura1234