How did the Voyage of Fear river work?

[Toa of Italy]

I'm referring to the river flowing through the tunnel the Toa Metru use in Voyage of Fear to get from Metru Nui to Mata Nui. Now, I'm having a few problems understanding how it worked.

 

For a start, we know its waters are liquid protodermis: this is stated several times in the book; in addition, when the Toa arrive to Mata Nui, Nokama tastes the sea water and realizes that it's different from liquid protodermis; since she took a few swims in the river and didn't notice this before, it can be safely said that the river contained no water from Aqua Magna.

 

Now, how is that possible? Mata Nui is above Metru Nui, so the water should have been flowing from the sea above, made of "ordinary" sea water, to the Silver Sea, made of liquid protodermis. So how come there is no sea water in the river but liquid protodermis instead?

 

The only solution is that the flow of the river was directed upwards, towards Mata Nui, instead of downwards. This obviously defies all laws of gravity, yet it is implied at times in the book. At one point, the transport used by the Toa Metru is nearly swallowed by an artificial whirlpool created by Mavrah, which they evade by making the transport "fly" above the whirlpool, reaching the other side. Now, look at these quotes, one describing the activation of the whirlpool and the other its deactivation:

 

 

...the vessel suddenly shot forward. His [Vakama's] first reaction was relief. Nuju had obviously been successful and would be surfacing at any moment. This feeling faded in a hurry when he realized the boat was moving too fast.

"Matau! Slow down!" he shouted.

The Toa of Air shook his head frantically. "I can't. It's not the transport that is quick-floating, it's the current!"

A glance behind confirmed Matau's statement. The liquid protodermis flowing through the channel was now a raging torrent propelling the transport along.

 

Vakama rushed to the stern of the vessel. Sure enough, the waters were dead calm. There was no sign of the maelstrom had ever been there. But it had been real, and so had the rushing water, the damage to the boat proved that. He crouched down and stared into the whirlpool. The current had slowed...

 

And another one, when the Toa make it seem as if the transport were going adrift in the hopes of luring out their enemy:

 

 

The Lhikan drifted aimlessly down the river.

 

Now, during the course of the voyage, the Toa never perform a U-turn. This means that the transport always moves towards Mata Nui, even when it is adrift, and when the whirlpool activates, ahead of them (since they do not turn back after crossing it), the current first accelerates and then decelerates, but it never changes direction.

 

All this implies the water was moving upwards. How is that possible?

 

The only answer I can think of requires us to remember that Mata Nui "grew" out of the Great Spirit Robot's head. Now, we know that during the Great Cataclysm, which happened just before Voyage of Fear, the robot crashed into the sea of Aqua Magna and sank beneath it. My theory is that this sinking didn't occur immediately, at least as far as the head is concerned. Therefore, when the Toa Metru reached Mata Nui, the head was still almost totally above the water. This would have enabled them to travel not upwards, but "sideways" or even slightly downwards from Metru Nui. Subsequently, the head sank down, carrying the mouth of the tunnel down into the sea, which is actually where Gali and Nokama find it a millennium later, as shown in Tales of the Masks.

 

The problem with this theory is that, when the Toa emerge, they do not see the head, only the island. This means that the island of Mata Nui covered not only the face of the robot, but even the sides of the head, which would have sunk into the sea. This also implies that the part of the island covering these sides also sank. Now, how come we've never seen or heard of a good portion of the island of Mata Nui sinking into the water shortly after the Toa Metru discovered it?

 

I welcome any thoughts.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Toa of Italy

[The 1st Shadow]

Not upwards, but outwards. Mata Nui had just crashed on Aqua Magna about an hour before they started their journey.

 

There was water outside the robot's head, and there was a different water inside his head. There were tunnels that the Bohrok used to get out to the surface, and this river was one of those connected to a Gahlok nest somewhere.

 

Now, when the robot crashed, his system formed the island later named Mata Nui on his face, with the tunnel coming out the side of his head. The reason why Nokama hadn't tasted the salty water beforehand was because the waters were still mixing. The difference in salinity would have caused slightly different densities, too. If the salt water were the denser than the liquid protodermis, it would have pushed underneath the LP and forced the latter back out, creating a sort of current.

 

At one point in the book, Nokama states that the water levels in the tunnel are rising, implying that MN's head is still sinking into the mud and crust of Aqua Magna beneath, allowing more water to fill up around the sides of his head.

[SPIRIT]

not upwards, but "sideways"

Not upwards, but outwards.

 

We must move forward, not backwards; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!

 

 

 

But seriously folks, this was always something that confused me about Voyage of Fear, although this may have a pretty simple solution now that we have the gift of hindsight.  When you start to think of the Mata Nui robot as more of a body, a lot of things start making sense.  The liquid protodermis in the robot was analogous to blood.  How do we know that there wasn't a system in place to send liquid protodermis from the dorsal surface of Mata Nui to his ventral surface?  I mean, apart from the Pit, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot going on with Mata Nui's ventral surface, but maybe it helps make the machines run up there somehow.

 

Perhaps it was liquid cooling for the camouflage device that created the island of Mata Nui in the first place.  After all, it had just created 6 distinct ecosystems.  I don't know about you, but I'd be in need of some liquid cooling too after a feat like that.

[fishers64]

Okay, so I reread Voyage of Fear and Maze of Shadows to try to get some light on this matter:

 

Voyage of Fear:

 

(1)

The voyage of the Lhikan had followed a pretty straight and level course so far.

(2)

The Lhikan drifted aimlessly down the river.

(3)

The Toa of Fire was asking himself the same question. He had taken so many twists and turns he was not at all sure he could find his way back to the other Toa.

Vakama led the team through the tunnels and back to the transport. While the others got on board, Matau flew ahead to scout. He returned in a matter of moments with a rare piece of good news.“All open-clear ahead” he reported. “This tributary bypasses the lake and the Rahi beasts and feeds back into the river.”

So this was the part I had completely forgotten about. Those twisting tunnels. Now I don’t know why the Kralhi would bother to drag something uphill through water; my guess is that they didn’t. Also, none of the Rahi escaped the lake to the ocean above, which suggests that the waterway there at the end of the lake was a steep upward sloping ramp that poured the water into the lake. How the transport got to the tributary and which way the maze of tunnels went – lateral or up is an open question. I believe the tunnels slope up because that’s where the Toa Metru ultimately went, Toa Vakama stopped on a rocky ledge to aim down at the Krahli which were behind him, and there is no mention in the book of the Vahki transport having to swim upriver (although the possibility isn’t ruled out that the tunnels are lateral).Said tributary could join back in on the Metru side of the lake where Matau turned left and got burned.

 

(4)

Matau turned the transport and for the first time they saw the island that would be their new home.

* * *

Also, the tunnels leading up to Marvah’s “lake” were flooded after a certain point; there are carvings on the walls to indicate that at one point the tunnel was not flooded. I imagine Marvah fled there before it was flooded, taking the Rahi with their tanks full of water. Later, when the tunnel did flood, Marvah either let them loose or they broke loose.

*fingernails scraping on chalkboard noise* gahhhhhh....

[Bold Clone]

The only solution is that the flow of the river was directed upwards, towards Mata Nui, instead of downwards. This obviously defies all laws of gravity, yet it is implied at times in the book. At one point, the transport used by the Toa Metru is nearly swallowed by an artificial whirlpool created by Mavrah, which they evade by making the transport "fly" above the whirlpool, reaching the other side. Now, look at these quotes, one describing the activation of the whirlpool and the other its deactivation:

 

Well, Mata Nui does possess gravity-controlling abilities...maybe the river really was flowing upwards? 

[bonesiii]

Hm... this has come up often, but I don't recall anybody pointing out those liq.proto. quotes. But when in the timeline of the journey do they take place? Fishers' quote shows how previous theories have mainly interpreted it, so only after leaving the lake would it be expected to flow against them and be pure or mostly H2O. (Assuming there's no system or power altering the normal way water flows, both of which in Bionicle are possible, but seem unlikely here.)

 

Also, just being in the water doesn't mean you're intentionally tasting it; Nokama tastes the water later in the context of trying to see if that was a good place to live. Nobody diving into the river on the way was thinking "hey can we live here?"

 

Finally, assuming they hadn't tasted it, how would they know at that point to call it anything else by sight? I could see an ambiguous reference to water and probably those are in there (but that can mean both), but if "water" always meant "liquid protodermis" in all your life, and you hadn't yet tested pure water on the surface to know the difference, wouldn't you by sight assume normal water was liquid protodermis?

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

I mentioned this in another topic: the water wasn't just flowing out of the Metru Nui dome, it was also flowing upwards.

 

Anyway, you can look at it this way: Mata Nui's body is a machine. Maybe they were traveling through some sort of plumbing system that somehow pumped water up and out of the robot, while still leaving air inside, making it resemble a river. I guess it's possible with the robot's gravity-manipulation abilities.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

This is a question I had actually. It makes sense in the context of the book, but when you think about the placement of Mata Nui and Metru Nui... Yeowch.

 

Real life physics don't apply to Bionicle. Greg's answer. 

 

-NotS

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I would firmly plant this whole "river-up" scenario as a good example of a "greg-don't-care". that is, Greg doesn't seem to know what he's doing and wanted to somehow make it not seem liek they were going up. even though we all knew they were going up. going up wouldn't have spoiled the giant robot reveal, but apparently better safe than physically possible. :u

[bonesiii]

Well, he has admitted he has trouble with placement of things related to other things, so it wouldn't be all that surprising if he messed up some of this. I don't get that, but everybody has different strengths and weaknesses. But he certainly does care -- if he didn't, he wouldn't have talked to fans so much etc.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Well, he has admitted he has trouble with placement of things related to other things, so it wouldn't be all that surprising if he messed up some of this. I don't get that, but everybody has different strengths and weaknesses. But he certainly does care -- if he didn't, he wouldn't have talked to fans so much etc.

 

How can you "have trouble with the placement" of a whole river flowing up through a sinking robot, up into the sea around an island bigger than the robot's head, an ilsand which is, note, directly above where they started?

 

that's like, the oversight to end all oversights right there.

[bonesiii]

I meant about the water type. I would tend to assume nobody can have trouble with water flowing up.
 
Then again, I can't relate to having trouble with spatial arrangement in the first place, so maybe I'm just assuming that.
 
Edit: Scratch that. There's no trouble. I just read through it and compiled quotes, and neither the current nor the water type is a problem. Here's my notes (which were typed as I read):
 
--------------
 
Alright, folks, have some time to spare I thought I wouldn't, and I've been curious about those quotes (and nobody else seems to be leaping to the task ), so decided to skim through the book again and keep track of what it says and doesn't say. First relevant quote, shortly after the start and just before the fork where Matau introduces the "left or right" gag, on page 12:
 

The voyage of the Lhikan had followed a pretty straight and level course so far.

Next page:
 

The transport edged into the left passage. It was not even halfway through the tunnel mouth when the liquid protodermis all around began to bubble.

No problem here as we obviously expect this to be protowater given the above quote (or a mix if the old lake = down theory is wrong). No clear mention of current yet, but Matau does simply turn the boat to go this way, so presumably they're going downriver. (And obviously the perception thing I mentioned will come into play in any mention of this unless tasted or something, but since that probably affects everything there should be no further need to mention it.)

Holdsec. At the sight of the creature causing the heat, it says:
 

Throwing the craft into reverse...

Okay, so apparently it IS moving on its own power. I was expecting Nokama to change the current temporarily. I guess we can't make anything of the current earlier, then.

15:
 

She leaped over the side and into the liquid protodermis. It was warmer than expected, far more than the ocean around Metru Nui.

Lemme interrupt to note, this is almost immediately after leaving the boiling tunnel, so I presume that's the source of the heat... but not sure why she wouldn't expect it. Anywho, next sentence says:
 

It was also surprisingly clear, almost like the purified protodermis that flowed through Ga-Metru.

Could this have been intended as a clue it was actually H2O/a mix? If so, it would strongly imply that Greg was intentionally having them mis-identify it as liquid protodermis... but also would make the lake = down theory highly questionable. So far, the level course makes that possible, though, if the current is actually against them and slight, but I'm presuming our old understanding it was with them was based on real quotes... Reading on...

On page 18, Vahki powers make Matau think they have to go back, and he does a U-turn, or starts to. Apparently he believes either direction is just as possible for the craft (consistent with its level and the robotic legs doing some sort of motion that works enough like swimming), but the Command power could have made him wrongly think that.

Okay, that's apparently answered next -- Matau is pinned by Nuju, and that leaves the craft:
 

with no driver as it spun in rapid circles.

Apparently it had quite a lot of propulsive power. Okay, moving on then...

Oddly, on page 23, Nokama dives into the "murky" river. I'm not sure what caused the difference from its earlier clarity, but she seemd to take it for granted.

26:
 

A number of the legs that acted as oars

Confirmation that the walking mechanism is being somehow repurposed for propulsion, rather than some sort of extra engine. Not surprising, though.

On page 28, the current gets its first mention, but because it has suddenly increased in the same spot where moments before it wasn't noteworthy and it's quickly established this is the result of a whirlpool ahead; apparently a hole in the floor letting water out.

(I forget as I read if we found out what caused this... it could be evidence for a theory I had earlier that if the lake is down, this is part of a natural water level maintenance system for the Silver Sea and this is it triggering due to a mix of normal water flooding in and reaching the occasional tipping point. Readin' on...)

The current is clearly shown to be with them here, but the whirlpool is ahead of them, so again, not surprising, but this part may imply the current is in the same direction as previously but just much stronger:
 

The liquid protodermis flowing through the channel was now a raging torrent propelling the transport along.

Nokama fails to make a strong enough countercurrent to rescue the transport, and speculates that the same people who made a trap she has just spotted ahead (she'd been scouting when she dove into the "murky" water) might have caused this. That is probably all Greg intended... still, could be that trap was, and this isn't but was still made by people in my drain theory. Or maybe her speculation is wrong...

Nuju is underwater, lost his mask, Nokama is underwater, saves him and puts his mask back on, he makes ice dome, air somehow appears (no explanation), and then:
 

"This will not last long," Nuju said. He coughed up some of the river water.

Proof of tasting. At least pre-lake. (And during a massive current from mostly level water, I guess we can't make much of this. Even if it was somewhat H2O moments before, a lot of Silver Sea protowater probably just came rushing in. Depends on a lot of factors though.)

Onewa and Whenua make an earth-rock ramp (lol, irony) and the transport sails over the whirlpool and the current immediately stops. Could be coincidence, but suggests a security system. (Vakama speculates shortly after that somebody could see the approach, but not the part with the whirlpool, and switched it off when they would have reached it, assuming it got them, and unable now to see them after.)

Okay, now we get very close to confirmation of direction of current:
 

The Lhikan drifted aimlessly down the river. No Toa sat at the controls to keep it on course, nor was there anyone keeping watch for threats. In fact, there was no sign of life anywhere on the vessel.

Could mean 1) the engine is still running and it isn't being steered, or 2) "no sign of life anywhere" means it's completely still, just floating. If 2, current direction confirmed. And if nobody's steering, having it still being propelled would be risky, so I'm guessing it's 2.

Okay, a few paragraphs down, they're listening for any sound. Wouldn't work well with engines running I'd think.

Mavrah is featured starting on page 42 and confirms in his thoughts that he caused the whirlpool.

During a scuffle with a sea creature (still before the lake though), Matau clearly starts the vehicle, so confirmed it was drifting before, ergo current confirmed.

On page 48 they enter the lake.

Okay, this is off-topic, but I notice that Ahkmou's sphere is clearly said to have been dragged down by a creature. Somehow I always thought it sunk, which I'd thought was a contradiction since the vessel is only floating due to the spheres. How it stays down there afterward I dunno, though, and still a contradiction with movie version which has all the spheres fall off at one point and yet the transport still floats. Aaaanywho.

Lotsa Mavrah stuff not relevant... skimming ahead...

On page 98, Onewa sinks into the lake, and takes a mouthful of water. Tasting confirmed in lake.

Okay, page 107, they start to head back to the transport, so we're about to get to the part where the real questions begin.

Matau scouts ahead via flying, and reports:
 

"This tributary bypasses the lake... and feeds back into the river."

I'm not sure where this is, but it sounds like the current's in the same direction. Moments later, that seems to be confirmed, as they go through some rapids before joining up to the river. So it seems like the tributary clearly went down from the lake, and so did the river to this point.

On 109, Matau brings the transport to a stop, so we can confirm propulsion up to that point (expected since they're fleeing), but the rapids and frequent use of "down" still seem to imply a current away from the Silver Sea.

Okay, they're stopping to bring down the tunnel. I had thought that happened much later, but they've clearly just barely left the lake. It's mentioned that the tunnel he brought down had been there from "ages past", so it's part of the complex of tunnels connected to the lake. And now that water flow FROM the Silver Sea is cut off, any water would seem to have to be from the Aqua Magna sea above from now on.

After a few drama quotes (and oddly apparent proof that Vahki staffs float... didn't see that coming), the chapter breaks, and the transport idles after some tight turns damage the legs. So we can confirm propulsion again, and apparently ever since blocking that tunnel.

Any amount of time could have passed between then and now, since with the tunnel blocked, the rest of that journey would be boring. Let's see if anything happens to the direction while idling, though.

Okay, this isn't for that, but a few paragraphs down the water level is said to be rising rapidly. So, we have clear confirmation that the water direction is now from the AM side, so it looks like the old theory was only off by placing the lake itself as the lowpoint. It seems the actual lowpoint is somewhere just downriver of the lake, making the lake NOT a result of flooding at all.

Perhaps the Silver-Sea leveling theory is right and that drain is under that lowpoint. The transport may have passed it in the frenzy of the battle just before Onewa brings down the roof, and the stone could now be between the drain and the leak from the surface. Or maybe there is no mechanized drain but just natural tunnels that would keep going down for a long time before finally presumably reaching some kind of circulation system. Either way, the old theory is still working with only slight modification.

Ah, here we go. While the repairs are going on, Matau scouts again, and now announces enthusiastically that he found the new land, and we get:
 

"Can the transport get us there?" Vakama asked Onewa.

So if they couldn't make the transport's own propulsion go, they would not have been able to get it out of the tunnel (barring use of elemental powers, esp. Nokama), ergo the current is now against them.

And there's no tasting until just after they emerge from the tunnel. Nokama does go into the water briefly before this to carve something on the wall, but no hint of tasting.

So... in short, it looks like this has all been much ado about nothing, although it is confusing just after they leave the lake. Then again, Mavrah clearly had his creatures in this lake well before this, so it shouldn't be all that surprising that its level at that point isn't a result of flooding, or not significantly so.

No clear sign of what happens to the floodwaters in the time between the crash and Onewa's blockade, but somehow or another a river that looks to have been there all along from the other direction must have been kept from flooding and that probably can only be due to a system of the giant robot, so not drawing attention to that detail makes sense at this time since we weren't supposed to be suspecting that yet.

Regardless, there's just barely enough to clearly show the current is in the right direction where it needed to be, and zero relevance to the "liquid protodermis" quotes due to the timing and stated current before that.

Edited October 7, 2015 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

I'm not sure why everyone automatically assumes that water was flowing up. There's really nothing in the book to suggest that - I thought the Metru were going upriver against the current using the Vahki transport as oars. 

 

(I place myself at some quirky mid-level in terms of spatial arrangements, although it's well established by now that while I may be okay at understanding them, I am pretty bad at articulating them in words.) 

[bonesiii]

It wasn't -- see my edit just added to above post (before you posted, so I didn't DP ).

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

I'm asking this question on the Chat with Greg Farshtey topic on the LEGO Message Boards. My post is still pending moderation, however.

[fishers64]

It wasn't -- see my edit just added to above post (before you posted, so I didn't DP ).

Okay, there goes my tired brain missing stuff again.

 

I really don't have too much to argue with there. I think the "whirlpool = drain" theory is somewhat dubious though, since you don't need a drain to make a whirlpool, just something to churn the water up. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

The whirlpool drain theory was debunked later in the notes. Well, maybe Mavrah made a temporary drain somehow, maybe by collapsing a chamber below the river, but it wouldn't make sense for him to have turned on a giant-robot function, for example (unless for some reason it doesn't affect his thoughts at all when we get his perspective shortly after).

 

Edit: To the last bit, it doesn't look like it could just be churning the water up, because the whole current in that part of the river got much faster, implying water was going down something. So, a drain of some sort, but clearly not the one theorized as the lowpoint between the from-Silver-Sea downward river and the from-Aqua-Magna downward river.

Edited October 8, 2015 by bonesiii

[MrSciFiGuy]

Could it have anything to do with the inside pressure of the GSM vs the outside of Aqua Magna? If so it could be creating a pull on the water like siphoning water through a hose

[fishers64]

Edit: To the last bit, it doesn't look like it could just be churning the water up, because the whole current in that part of the river got much faster, implying water was going down something. 

I'm not sure how the current getting faster implies that the water was going down something. It would have to be going down after the whirlpool because the Lhikan was drifting down the river, but not before. 

 

(It's like a bedsheet attached to a gear that is moving really fast - the sheet is going to move rapidly around the gear. If I have a model boat on the sheet at some point, from that perspective the "current" of the sheet is going to increase, bringing it towards the gear. Same deal here - only the "sheet" is the water.) The whirlpool is pulling them in, so of course the current is going to increase - has nothing to do, in my mind, with it being a drain or not.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

Could it have anything to do with the inside pressure of the GSM vs the outside of Aqua Magna? If so it could be creating a pull on the water like siphoning water through a hose

No, because Mavrah says he invented whatever made it work, and it shuts off instantly the moment they pass the whirlpool.

 

 

Edit: To the last bit, it doesn't look like it could just be churning the water up, because the whole current in that part of the river got much faster, implying water was going down something. 

I'm not sure how the current getting faster implies that the water was going down something. It would have to be going down after the whirlpool because the Lhikan was drifting down the river, but not before. 

 

(It's like a bedsheet attached to a gear that is moving really fast - the sheet is going to move rapidly around the gear. If I have a model boat on the sheet at some point, from that perspective the "current" of the sheet is going to increase, bringing it towards the gear. Same deal here - only the "sheet" is the water.) The whirlpool is pulling them in, so of course the current is going to increase - has nothing to do, in my mind, with it being a drain or not.  

It sounds like I haven't been clear about what the book describes, probably because it's fresh in my mind, heh, so let's try again. The whole river width for quite a ways ahead of the whirlpool suddenly got much, much, much faster, yet they had plenty of time for conversations, etc. -- and it was pulling them in from the current, not just spinning them around fast.* Just spinning the water would move you around in a circle fast if you were already close, but the water upriver wouldn't be affected noticeably. To get that effect you need to suddenly make the water ahead move out of the way really fast, and falling down a hole is the simplest way. And that would, of course, make a whirlpool as a side effect.

 

Anyways, this is all moot because it was clearly established this wasn't the lowpoint anyways. It doesn't really matter what this was... but I don't see why there would be resistance to it being water going down that caused it, as that's the obvious simple explanation. Unless there was some kind of elemental absorption equvalent, but the other trap Mavrah made was a simple deadfall trap, so simple mechanical principles are almost certainly what we should presume here. It sounds like he found an empty cavern below it and built a trapdoor that he controlled, and when he saw them go past, tripped the door, until he figured they would have hit the whirlpool, then he closed it. Probably had Kralhi do any heavy lifting needed for it, or maybe some of the smarter Rahi (and same for the deadfall).

 

*Of course, once you get close enough in a whirlpool, gravity and the floating-toward-center effects will pull you in, but they had so much time to talk and the Nokama bits imply a longer approach, that it seems clear they were well upriver of it. They weren't yet in the whirlpool, just headed toward it, and that's what a big drain would do. Picture a hole suddenly being punched in the bottom of an almost horizontal pipe. The upriver water near it will want to rapidly flow out the hole. (And some downriver, but that was prevented from harming them by it turning off at that instant.)

[fishers64]

I still think it could be done without the area being a drain. I suppose that it could be a drain, but it I just picture Marvah pulling a lever and water falling into a room below, possibly drowning him like in a bad Scooby-Doo cartoon. (I do get the pipe thing though.)
 
The real problem I have with that whole thing is the carvings on the walls in the front of the lake, which implies that that area wasn't supposed to be flooded in the first place. If that was the case, why would there be a drain there?
 
I suppose that the drain Mavrah pulled might have been to prevent the lake from overfilling into the carvings area in the first place, but then why did Marvah block it?
 
Argh too complicated. 
 
-----------------------------------------------------
 
I started Greg hunting this one - first for "Voyage of Fear":
 

3)I just watched LoMN for the seventh time and I noticed something, according to Voyage of Fear (I don't have the LoMN novelisation) that the Toa Metru sailed to Mata Nui via a system of underground rivers but in LoMN the Toa walked down that tunnel to Mata Nui. Whats going on?  
 
3) Portage. They had to carry the six spheres and the boat over a small strip of rock and then put them back into the water.

 
Note that this would imply that there was no low point, much like the Lewis and Clark expedition where they had to carry their boats from the headwaters of the Missouri through the mountain range to get to the headwaters of the Columbia on the other side. It would instead be a high point.
 
However, this is an old answer, so might be slightly inconsistent, but then again the whole Marvah incident was a battle portage anyway. Not really inconsistent.
 
"underground river"
 

6) Well, we know there Manas along the underground river leading from Metru Nui to Mata Nui, so he probably got them from there. We know Makuta went down that river to find Ahkmou.

 
Confirmation that it did go that way. Not having much luck today.

[bonesiii]

I suppose that it could be a drain, but it I just picture Marvah pulling a lever and water falling into a room below, possibly drowning him

Don't you think he'd be smart enough to put the lever above that level? Like, in that "window" where he would have seen them going past in the river? (So same level as the air above the river.) If he's making this thing intentionally, I don't see how that's a plausible scenario, unless you're completely joking. If the goal is to flood that theoretical cavern, I think he knows that he can't breathe underwater etc.

 

The real problem I have with that whole thing is the carvings on the walls in the front of the lake, which implies that that area wasn't supposed to be flooded in the first place. If that was the case, why would there be a drain there?

I don't see the connection? Again, it was clearly established that Mavrah made this as a trap, however it works, and we saw that deadfall trap too, so they're there because he wants them to be, to keep people out if they're uninvited. Carvings on the wall are irrelevant to that. (He may have made them, or they made predate him, but I don't see why it would mean anything about the specific type of trap he made?)

 

And what do you mean about flooding? Again, I don't see what that has to do with what trap he made since it WAS flooded (and since we already agree the trap makes a whirlpool in water somehow or another). And since this is the route he brought his sea Rahi along, whether it was originally intended to be flooded or not, it must have been by the time he brought them here.

 

I suppose that the drain Mavrah pulled might have been to prevent the lake from overfilling into the carvings area in the first place, but then why did Marvah block it?

?? Was my previous post still not clear that he explicitly tells us that he made the whirlpool as a trap? And why would it affect the river level? The river would continue flowing downhill to the lake and beyond, whether this was there or not; it would just come in faster for a short time when he flipped it. (And since the theoretical cavern would then fill up, assuming he didn't connect it to another long tunnel going into the water cycle system eventually, it would stop affecting the water soon after.)

 

You are confusing me.

 

 

Re: Greg quotes:

 

Well, somehow or another Silver Sea water was clearly getting into the river just beyond that point, perhaps an underground river just under it (so two exits one above the other), or another entrance to the left or right they didn't happen to take. I always thought that was just a movie mistake the book corrected, though.

 

And I don't know where the Manas thing comes from. There's no Manas in this book as far as I recall. There were in Karzahni, though, which also is connected to Metru Nui's dome by a different tunnel (but one seemingly unlikely for them to cross). I wonder where that was established that "we know" it? Maybe just a previous answer?

[fishers64]

Yeah, I got confused with the idea that it was a drain. So you're telling me Marvah built a watertight room under the river that he could just pull a lever to make a whirlpool in the river above it?
 
That's a pretty weird and lame trap, seeing as it would probably be one-use. 
 

And I don't know where the Manas thing comes from. There's no Manas in this book as far as I recall. There were in Karzahni, though, which also is connected to Metru Nui's dome by a different tunnel (but one seemingly unlikely for them to cross). I wonder where that was established that "we know" it? Maybe just a previous answer?

There's apparently a reference to some crablike Rahi in the book that Greg clarified to be Manas: 
 

Manas, still functioning? I take it MNOLG was wrong to portray them as shutting down? In Tales of the Toa, it was different, and you told me this about that:
 

(bonesiii Q and GregF A)Hapka also has the Toa Kaita disable the Manas by taking off their masks, while in MNOLG they had to disable those tower things that controlled them. Which is official?



The way I am approaching it is that the towers do not control them, but they are a power source for them and destroying them weakened them. Hapka was working from sources other than MNOLG, because she did not have access to the game -- she was working from original story bibles, which the game had deviated from in places.

So, they were weakened by the towers being destroyed, then frozen, and then the masks were taken off, and then they became essentially really strong but otherwise normal Rahi? Thawed, and then walked free?

GregF: Yes. In fact, if you check out Book 5: Voyage of Fear, you might spot some familiar crab-like shapes. (I love tossing little things into the books that only the really hardcore fans will get ... by the way, Book 5 also includes the fate of Ahkmou and helps to explain why he came back to Mata Nui still being such a creep.)

[bonesiii]

Yeah, I got confused with the idea that it was a drain. So you're telling me Marvah built a watertight room under the river that he could just pull a lever to make a whirlpool in the river above it?

Just to be crystal clear, it's canon that he invented whatever it was that made that whirlpool as a defensive trap, and the theory that it's a chamber beneath with a trapdoor is the best fit as far as I can tell for how it works. It simply explains exactly what happened there with normal physics etc.

 

That's a pretty weird and lame trap, seeing as it would probably be one-use.

So would a deadfall trap.

 

Unless reset (or water pumped out, perhaps evaporating over time, etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if he put a pump there too, but who knows?

 

Or, if it does connect to another tunnel that eventually feeds into the water cycle system, it wouldn't be one-use.

 

And I don't see how you get "lame" -- without elemental powers or something, it looked pretty much like they were doomed. And I was thinking if it didn't switch off they would probably be doomed afterward anyways as the other side would get them, but it switched off at that moment (implying it didn't have to, and Mavrah just assumed they were dead; if he'd been more paranoid, they probably would be).

 

 

Thanks for clarifying about the Manas. I do vaguely recall something about crab Rahi now. But Bionicle has so many, and I was skimming for water composition/current details, so must have missed it. (I'm just wondering why I have zero memory of noticing it before, but with me, that's not hard to explain lol.)

Edited October 10, 2015 by bonesiii

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

Just to add to the Manas point, they were never identified as Manas within the novel, but the Rahi Beasts guide includes them, saying that the Toa Metru encountered Manas on the way to Mata Nui.

[The Editor]

I kind of considered the maybe the water flowing upwards against gravity was because the robot sprung a leak - kind of like when you slash an artery in a person and the blood fountains out. Maybe a pipe carrying liquid protodermis (the silver sea's liquid) kind of got damaged by the fall and started spraying a jet of water hard enough to produce a river that flowed upwards?

 

Edit: Okay, that sounds a little stupid. But if you combine it with the idea of the robot's gravity generators going a little out of whack, it could make sense. Let's say that the generator goes a little nuts and makes the river flow upwards. Obviously, some seawater is gonna seep into the river and Nuju would've tasted it after having his near-drowning experience. So, it gets diluted by protodermis gushing out of a broken pipe, which also provides the current some of its gravity- and physics-defying strength.

Edited October 11, 2015 by The Editor

[fishers64]

Alright, I probably need to do a little more research on this one, but a note for opinions: 
 

3.Makuta had the other environs sealed off, so why was the Great

Barrier left open? Did Makuta plan to take the Matoran to Mata Nui?

3) The crack in the barrier was the result of the earthquake Makuta caused.

 
If that crack in the barrier wasn't open before the quake, how did Marvah get in there? This seems to refer to the hole that Vakama and Co. went through to get into the Voyage of Fear river.

[bonesiii]

Well, the earlier quote showed he considered the land route in the movie to be accurate, so there must be a second entrance due to the water flow from the Silver Sea. Apparently the land one they took opened up due to the quake. The other had to already be there due to the VoF backstory's timeline.

 

But where that is, aside from connecting to the Silver Sea, I haven't seen answered. Perhaps this supports it being entirely underwater, and Mavrah had to swim a little to reach it? Perhaps the creatures went there on their own and he followed them... or... something. It would make sense there weren't many above-water openings prior to that point, at least.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

Greg answered my question.

 

1. When the Toa Metru sailed the Lhikan from Metru Nui to Mata Nui, they used a subterranean river. The problem is that Mata Nui is above Mata Nui. How could they possibly travel "up" a river where the surface of the water was level? Was it some kind of function of the robot involving gravity or something?

 

1. If you were talking about normal geography, I would agree with you. But you're not. You're talking about a robot where the direction water flows would be determined by pumps.

 

As I thought, it was the robot's inner mechanisms that made this possible.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Greg answered my question.

 

1. When the Toa Metru sailed the Lhikan from Metru Nui to Mata Nui, they used a subterranean river. The problem is that Mata Nui is above Mata Nui. How could they possibly travel "up" a river where the surface of the water was level? Was it some kind of function of the robot involving gravity or something?

 

1. If you were talking about normal geography, I would agree with you. But you're not. You're talking about a robot where the direction water flows would be determined by pumps.

 

As I thought, it was the robot's inner mechanisms that made this possible.

 

Except pumps fill the whole vessel, since thy use pressure or vacuums to operate, so there wouldn't be a river if it was pump-based? ?:

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

 

Greg answered my question.

 

1. When the Toa Metru sailed the Lhikan from Metru Nui to Mata Nui, they used a subterranean river. The problem is that Mata Nui is above Mata Nui. How could they possibly travel "up" a river where the surface of the water was level? Was it some kind of function of the robot involving gravity or something?

 

1. If you were talking about normal geography, I would agree with you. But you're not. You're talking about a robot where the direction water flows would be determined by pumps.

 

As I thought, it was the robot's inner mechanisms that made this possible.

 

Except pumps fill the whole vessel, since thy use pressure or vacuums to operate, so there wouldn't be a river if it was pump-based? ?:

 

 

That's where I was going with the gravity manipulation thing.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

That's where I was going with the gravity manipulation thing.

 

 

Yeah i was more of dire ting that at greg saying "pumps" which are not gravity-controlled, seems he's either lost grip on physics again, or just used the wrong word. :u

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

 

That's where I was going with the gravity manipulation thing.

 

 

Yeah i was more of dire ting that at greg saying "pumps" which are not gravity-controlled, seems he's either lost grip on physics again, or just used the wrong word. :u

 

 

Well, it could be a combination of pumps and gravity, I guess. Pumps moving the water, while gravity pushes the water to one side of the pipe. I know it doesn't make much physical sense, but neither do lightsabers, and nobody ever complains about those.

[bonesiii]

But it's already been established that none of the water was going up. If you misdirect him with the wording of your question about something he wrote long ago and probably doesn't remember, I wouldn't take his answer as relevant here, since it would be retconning what he actually wrote in the published book and almost certainly due to forgetting, so the forgetcon rule comes in here. There was no need to ask him that.

 

I know you meant well, but this is exactly why it's better to clearly understand what the existing sources say first and if you do need to ask something, be sure to give him all the information up front.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

Could you give me a condensed summary of the scenario? Your previous explanation was pretty...thorough.

[bonesiii]

Basically, until shortly after the lake, they headed downhill (slightly), in liquid protodermis, then after Onewa sealed the tunnel right next to the lake (making the rest of the journey uneventful and thus not needing to fill lots of pages, giving the illusion of being nearly the end of the journey), it portrays the water as going against them (and flooding that side of the sealed tunnel, so it can't be coming from the other side), so they need the legs to act like oars to get higher (and water type isn't commented on until they emerge on Mata Nui). Ergo, no pumps pushing water up.

 

Ergo no problem needing fixed -- and if it was retconned as that answer suggests, it would actually create problems as described above.

Edited October 16, 2015 by bonesiii