JMSOG

At first I thought it said "Monado BAY", and that it was some location in florida. Now, i see it says "boy", and I have no idea what a monado is. XD

When you look at it from an outside viewpoint, it makes sense. Mata Nui was a very contained ecosystem, there was only so much "stuff" available. Once some of that stuff was no longer needed (some of the av matoran must have completed whatever the GB's required them to do), that stuff should be repurposed into other stuff. On mata nui, unless they wanted their arm to be made out of rocks/be left defending themselves with severly low tech, there was nothing else to recieve parts from. So, to repair themselves, they took it from parts that were no longer usable. If we were to ask greg (don't do it), i bet we'd find that there'd be some sort of instinct to collect no longer functional parts, in their code or whatever. The GB's never intended them to have full sentience, so they would not have seen it as an issue. Then we drop the outside viewpoint, and realise that these were, in the story, real people. We got to know av matoran like Takua and Tanma pretty darn well. In both of their futures, due to some highly advance beings deciding they should, they could easily become a mindless drone. Likely, the GBs never saw them as anything more than drones in the first place. I like Bionicle...contained within the story is a detailed critique on humanity creating artificial intellegence, and the morality of doing so. (Although I highly doubt that was intended, and I just overanalyzed it, as is my way. I love doing that. XD)

...to be fair...Kadin for an earth toa was pretty odd.

With the BFTGM, we have friendly intersite discussion right now. Perhaps if we informed Black Six, an intersite version of this could exist. Although, you are right. If we can't get a well-regulated intersite poll, it would be best to do it here (but severly regulate it...I think the past few weeks show that this is a topic that can flare tempers), or on LMB. I know i keep saying "lets ask greg", but...maybe we should ask greg what he would prefer.

Perhaps - because Bionicle has been over for five years now. I'd rather leave it be. I cannot predict whether the discussion would be taking place if Greg had outright canonized everything without input from fans, but there would certainly be people unhappy about it this late in the game, and I would be one of them. Something being canonized does inherently restrict the creative process: Sure it doesn't prevent someone from just violating canon, but some people don't like doing that, & some don't like reading such things etc. So it's still restrictive, just in a different way. Iblis points it out rather eloquently. Perhaps. I'm still firmly on the side of "let's canonize whatever Greg let's us!", but on the other hand, I do think, in every stage of polling and discussion, the option to leave something unknown should be available. At this point, there is no way possible to resolve the canonization discussion without at least some people being unsatisfied with whatever result emerges. at least with a well designed poll, we can at least have the majority be happy. If the majority end up being "leave it unknown", then from my perspective, so be it. We may be on opposite sides of the canonization debate, but I think we can agree that a well-structured and fair poll is the way to go, for both pro and anti canonization parties. Yes, absolutely. The polls are a must, although I question whether BZPower should be the only fan site with polls towards this. An option, though complicated, is to involve other sites, have them run identical polls, bring ALL THE RESULTS to Greg (without stating which site it was from), and let him pick from the results. Another is to have some sites decide the fate of some toa, and others decide the fate of others. (bzp gets information on the toa of earth, some other site gets Naho, etc). I don't know how much intersite dialog has happened in my 4-year BZP hiatus, so I don't know how realistic an intersite canonization discussion would be. Although you are right, us having a monopoly on this is not the most fair thing.

Perhaps - because Bionicle has been over for five years now. I'd rather leave it be. I cannot predict whether the discussion would be taking place if Greg had outright canonized everything without input from fans, but there would certainly be people unhappy about it this late in the game, and I would be one of them. Something being canonized does inherently restrict the creative process: Sure it doesn't prevent someone from just violating canon, but some people don't like doing that, & some don't like reading such things etc. So it's still restrictive, just in a different way. Iblis points it out rather eloquently. Perhaps. I'm still firmly on the side of "let's canonize whatever Greg let's us!", but on the other hand, I do think, in every stage of polling and discussion, the option to leave something unknown should be available. At this point, there is no way possible to resolve the canonization discussion without at least some people being unsatisfied with whatever result emerges. at least with a well designed poll, we can at least have the majority be happy. If the majority end up being "leave it unknown", then from my perspective, so be it. We may be on opposite sides of the canonization debate, but I think we can agree that a well-structured and fair poll is the way to go, for both pro and anti canonization parties.

If it's unknown, it's a mystery. noun, plural mysteries. 1. anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown: the mysteries of nature. For these masks, the information simply doesn't exist, not just unknown. Greg can keep his information secret from us, and that would be a mystery. However, stuff like this doesn't even exist, we are making it up. Therefore not a mystery. In the Matoran Universe, it could be a mystery. In real life, the information simply doesn't exist. That's like asking Greg a Fikou-Nui question. Does it make it a mystery because no information exists on it? I would say that yes, it does. I enjoy the creative freedom I currently have and do not want to see it become restricted. Just because something becomes canonized does not restrict the creative process. I can think of a number of cases where stories and mocs directly interfere with the canon, but were posted (and applauded) nonetheless. Would this be a discussion if Greg arbitrarily assigned the kanohi and weapons to the toa? considering the amount of confusion over this, i think we should add naho as an option for the kakama wearer. At this point, it seems unfeasible (unless we get ANOTHER do-over, which seems unlikely, and might muddle things a bit =P). I wouldn't be opposed, though, necessarily. Just that it seems difficult to do (another fantastic reason why this kind of stuff should be discussed beforehand). Perhaps a topic to discuss the structure should be created?

Kitania, I will give you that a lack of discussion is the major issue with the polls thus far. That was an error i was intending to repair with this proposed plan. Also, I can think of several cases where mocs, short stories, and art were met with acclaim, but directly violated cannon. I think that, as long as enough time for community discussion is given, the information on the mangai will represent what a majority want. If it ends up making no sense, then Greg will be the ultimate veto and it will stop there. If you think the above plan could be structured better to allow for better and more open discussion, I would love to know (I could not figure out a way to word that that does not sound sarcastic, but i assure you, i mean it earnestly).

The main argument I've seen against canonization is conflict with headcannon. The thing is, headcannon, by definition, can directly conflict with established canon and be fine. There's nothing stopping me, right now, from believing that, for example, Matau was corrupted in 2005 instead of Vakama. That being said, I don't like spontaneous canonization, and that's the other argument i've seen. As long as it's gone through a good approval process and enough open debate has happened, I can't see the issue with canonization. EDIT: although, if in polls people elect to leave some things unknown, I will respect that.

My friend a couple years ago decided he did not want his bionicle sets anymore (which included Rockoh T3, all the barraki, a handfull of nuva, various-titans-which-I-can't-remember, the mistika, a few bohrok, a couple piraka, a couple mahri, gadunka, and a ton more), so he put them all in a box and said he'd sell them to me for $10. I felt bad because I thought he was ripping himself off, so I gave him $20.

...Due to an error on my part, I left "unknown" as an option out of the above synopsis. Realistically, once gen2 truly gets up and rolling, I can see Greg likely completely shutting down canonization. This is the last hurrah we're going to get, and I'm all for it. Although i do understand people's reluctance. EDIT: updated the post.

I'm firmly on the side of LET'S DO IT. Or, at least get a poll rolling, with "unknown" as an option. It is possible to plan out weapons via poll, it's just...not straightforward...and we'd need to reach a consensus before we start.

The end goal of the polls was for the entire community to have a say in the result. Due to no act of malice on anyone's part, that did not happen. Despite this, the poll continued and, since this invalidated the initial goal of the poll, Dorek made the right move. We need to regroup and calm down...Despite me agreeing with Dorek's action, can I just say from a human perspective that everyone's been hard on Boidoh...Let's stop throwing blame and hate around and come up with a plan.

As amazing as the mangai canonization is, at the moment, it is incredibly devisive. If we have a specific plan, as I have said in many posts, it'd probably go smoother. So, since I want to not just throw out ideas and not be helpful, here's my proposed plan: Each step should have a run time of exactly one week to the minute. I know it will take a long time, but since gen1 is over, it could take years and be okay. Also, instead of being regarded as a group, to ensure consistency the toa of ice will be arbitrarily given a number STEP ONE: -Poll to determine mangai with the Kakama (to make sure it is defined early) Options: -Toa of Ice #1 -Toa of Ice #2 -Toa of Ice #3 -Toa of Ice #4 -Toa of Stone -Toa of Earth -Naho STEP TWO: -Discuss with Greg as far as what masks need to be eliminated from the list of kanohi STEP THREE: -Select a toa via a random selection process -Decide kanohi via a poll (unless it is the Kakama Toa) Options: -All approved kanohi, minus the Kakama and any kanohi used by another Mangai. -Unknown STEP 4: -discussion topic as far as what TYPE of weapons this toa would use, based on previously existing weapon categories (Sword, staff, etc) STEP 5: -Poll to select weapon type Options: -Those given approval in discussion topic -Unknown STEP 6: -Discussion topic to select weapon ADJECTIVE (VINE staff, STONE sword, etc) STEP 7: -Poll to determine weapon adjective Options: -Those given approval in discussion topic -Unknown STEP 8: -Select NAME of toa Options- -Names of locations on Mata Nui -Names of SOME tools on Mata Nui -"Unknown Name" option STEP 9: -Repeat steps 3-8 until all Mangai have been addressed Thoughts? changes?

I'm pretty sure that if we were to bring everything we know to both a physics major and a biology major, we could probably deduce quite a bit about Bara Magna, it's atmosphere, and the agori/glatorian physiology. BZPower is a pretty diverse community...anyone?

I've reached the point in my life where I've realised that, If i were to assemble and clean up all my bionicle sets and sell them, the total amount of money I would make would pay for a sizable amount of my college tuition. ...And then that inevitable second realisation happens, and I know I would rather keep them.

He's rather reluctant to canonize stuff now, because of what some people did in the past few weeks. Especially something as controversial as this. With just a little more structure and planning, this controversy could still be the positive thing Boidoh and Greg intended it to be. I find it cool that we get to essentially mould together who the mangai were, I think it just needs to be handled a little more strategically. The only reason that Greg said we could determine the masks of the Toa Mangai was because of how vocal you were about it. I'm personally glad he was. The mangai canonizations honestly made me more excited than bionicle coming back. Realistically, It's probably going to be the last hurrah as far as information about gen1, and without Boidoh, it would not have happened.

Zaktan, Matoro, Teridax, and Kopaka remain four of my favorite characters, not just in bionicle, but in fiction. Yeah, I went there.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the one person who has not had a say in how the poll should be run is Greg. His voice is kind of an end-all-be-all in questions of cannon. Perhaps in polls from now on, we bring him the options for voting FIRST, let him eliminate what is necessary, and create a poll from the results? it may lead to fewer restarts and invalidated votes. Perhaps also plan out exactly what polls will be held so that none will contradict.

CATEGORIES OF EXISTING TOA TOOLS: -Spear -Scythe -Broadsword -Claw -Mace -Trident -Staff -Flail -Sword -Hook -Axe -Shield -Katana -Blade -Slicer -Drill -Spike -Greatsword -Club -Harpoon -Crossbow -Talon -Warblade -Cutter -Saber -Lance (Forgive everything I missed/errors, BS01is blocked on my school wifi for some reason) Add to that the other options talked about: -Whip -Mace -Gloves -None -Others-that-I-may-be-forgeting ...and from thus we have a place to start as far as what TYPE of weapon. What from this list can be eliminated from toa of plantlife?

Yes. Even back when Gen1 was active i enjoyed fan canonizations. The mangai in particular actually played a pretty major role if you think about it...They were Lhikan's team, and were who the toa metru would have seen as an inspiration. They aren't some background characters, they actually hold a semi-major role, and yet, so little is known. If there's one thing that could change, maybe we should figure out a way to get greg more involved somehow. But overall, i'd say bring on the nitpick canonizations.

Stone. Not to be contrarian, but more because i like the idea of a character in the shadow of a legend like Pohatu. (and yes, i know that by that logic, Lhikan would have been in the same boat).

perhaps this should go about in a different manner...we get broad categories defined, vote for that, and get more specific from there. When i say broad, i mean broad. "Sword" "shield" "wip" "staff", that kinda thing. EDIT: maybe get the categories from previously existing toa tools even.

Good point on the le matoran...You're right, the vast majority of toa tools are of a strictly functional shape. There have been enough exceptions to use as precedent, though. Tahu's fire sword litterally being molded in the shape of a flame and Vakama's disk launcher come to mind.

A possible counter argument is that, since he's a toa of plantlife and whatnot, he's "closer to nature" than any toa we have previously seen. From what i understand from a google search (my school wifi blocks BS01 for some reason), matoran of plantlife will tend to live in more forested areas. This gives me the impression that, perhaps, they would be a little more inclined to modeling their tools after various aspects of nature, rahi included. ...that being said, not my first vote...