EP vs Antidermis

[TERIDAX941]

A topic was created earlier discussing zamor and what the antidermis that is contained inside does: http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/12995-how-did-zamor-spheres-enslave-matoran/

 

This led me to think, Velika gave the Inika Zamor that contained Energized Protodermis to counteract the Antidermis, which worked all well and good. The Antidermis must not be destined to transform, so therefore it will be destroyed and the Matoran would be free. But that leads to another question: what happens to the Energized Protodermis after it has destroyed the Antidermis? Once it has cleaned the Matoran of the "virus" it's just sitting inside the Matoran, and we know from experience that EP doesn't just sit. It will effect anything that touches it. So that led me to this theory: Antidermis and Energized Protodermis have the ability to counteract each other, and like a negative and a positive, cancel each other out. So when the Inika use the EP Zamor to "heal" the Matoran, they're fine with dumping loads of EP into the Matoran's system because while the Antidermis is being destroyed, it in turn, destroys the EP as well, neutralized the mutation/destruction effect that the EP would definitely have on the Matoran's body.

 

Now, this theory isn't without flaws, because it's common knowledge that Makuta make Rahkshi from Kraata dipped into EP, and therefore EP can alter Antidermis under some conditions. This could be explained that it only completely destroys the Antidermis when it's in "vapor" form.

 

Anyways, that's my theory on it all. Any questions, comments, rude remarks? (hopefully none of the latter)

Edited May 12, 2014 by Iron_Man5

[Kopekemaster]

I suppose that makes sense. It would probably be like:

1 unit of EP + 1 unit of AD = no net change

 

But, of course, then, if it were:

2 units of EP + 1 unit of AD (or the other way around) = a bad change, either way

[bonesiii]

There's clearly some kind of canceling out. But we don't really even know what happens during transformations or destructions, to the mass of the EP. There's been theories that when something is destroyed, its mass is added to the EP. Or, it might be entirely converted to energy and the EP just becomes more energetic.

 

In this case, two other possibilities are:

 

-Destroying the AD (I'll just go with KM's abbreviation ) spends all the energy in the EP, turning it into just liquid protodermis. Seems unlikely but who knows. Or:

 

-The EP is "smart" enough to leave the body in an exact one to one match against each molecule of antidermis, so it is never touching the body while that part of the body is touching AD, like a chemical reaction. It may move the AD molecules outside the body, briefly transforming them into a more permeating version, then destroying once they're free.

 

In the latter case, then we can't even rule out that the EP mass actually doubles (depending on which theory is right about what happens during normal destructions), but outside the body. It might then fall to the ground around the Matoran and immediately begin dissolving the ground, pouring into thin holes and quickly being out of reach (so the Matoran isn't likely to accidentally step on it).

 

There's even a third possibility that the EP has an exception to the normal rules and simply refuses to either transform or destroy the Matoran even if it is in contact with the body because it recognizes that the antidermis was the target, and then it might slowly seep out or whatnot. Any number of other options too really.

 

One note on the theory of canceling each other out -- it (probably) can't be like a negative mass and a positive mass leaving nothing at all; it would be more like white blood cells shredding germs but then also self-destructing. This means the mass of the AD and the EP, in the form of loose atoms or sub-molecules, and possibly all that energy, should be released inside the body of the Matoran. That sounds a tad unhealthy to me. Who knows what kind of havoc that might wreak on the normal protodermis molecules; it could be like unleashing a vast amount of poison into your system.

 

If the EP is destroyed, there's nothing to guide all of this outside the Matoran's body, unless the normal protodermis molecules are programmed to handle this automatically. Which is possible... Who knows? But it seems better IMO if the EP isn't destroyed and does guide the byproducts out of the body.

 

But it would explain the "anti" designation for antidermis nicely.

 

Could also mean antidermis was actually invented specifically to counter EP, not simply as a thing EP could counter. Given EP's role in the Shattering, that might make sense for the GBs to want to do.

 

 

BTW, IMO it's possible that any smaller percentage of EP is still easily capable of destroying the total mass of antidermis in a victim's body. We saw just one droplet burn up the entire Karzahni plant. If there was more EP than AD, it might be a problem (but even then, not necessarily; the EP may simply be smart enough to affect only the antidermis because it hits that first, so recognizes that as the target), but less EP should theoretically still destroy the entire collection of antidermis molecules (the ones touching each other in one place I mean). So, the simple safeguard the Inika could have used here to play it safe would be to fill the EP Zamor only partway, leaving an air bubble.

[Arcee]

It's nice to think that antidermis and protodermis are two sides of a coin considering how close their names are. Far too obvious to be a coincidence.

 

Here's an idea though:

 

The antidermis doesn't just sit around in the Matoran's body. It actively transforms them into something they're not destined to be. The EP is just reverting them onto the right track.

 

If you fired an EP zamor at a Toa destined to become Nuva, what happens to the proto? I imagine it sort of just vanishes as part of the transformation. Even though EP is smart it's surely not benevolent enough to leave a Matoran alone and destroy the antidermis within. It's just speculation on my part but I feel like EP would transform the sum total of Matoran+antidermis into Matoran sans antidermis.

[Katuko]

If the EP did not somehow become inert after being used for transformation, then the Matoran would be affected as well once the antidermis was gone. The Toa Nuva would also have been unable to escape the pool they fell into as well, I believe, since they were completely submerged in it until their transformation was complete. I dunno how it would work if spare EP splashed all over the ground, but since it wasn't mentioned I've taken it to mean that the EP either vanished or turned into normal protodermis once it lost its charge. Laws of energy and all that.

 

Given that at least part of teh EP was eventually shown to be somehow intelligent and capable of speech, though, it might be that the EP entity simply knows what to target and what not to target. If my job was to say "hello" to everyone who walked up to me, I would just say it once, and then wait until they had left and returned before I tried saying "hello" again. If EP is just a regular dumb liquid with certain properties, though, it'd just keep transforming until it ran out of energy or you left and/or died.

 

What would happen if Tahu Mata had just dipped his hand in the EP pool? Would just the hand be affected, or would it forcibly seep into the rest of him as well? What if he had only a cup full, would that be enough for a full transformation? If it is intelligent and merely needs touch to trigger, then I believe so. If it's just an acidic liquid of sorts, I think not.

[Akavakaku]

I don't think Tahu would have survived touching protodermis at an earlier time. His destiny was to become a Toa Nuva AFTER imprisoning the Bahrag, not before.

Back to the main topic, it doesn't make much sense thinking of it in terms of chemistry... Maybe we should think of it in terms of electricity. The protodermis is like an electrical charge, full of energy and dangerous. So it isn't safe to touch. But the antidermis is like a grounding for the protodermis. When protodermis comes in contact with antidermis, regardless of what the ratio between the two is, the antidermis grounds the protodermis and makes it harmless.

The implications of this are interesting: maybe that's why the Piraka named it Antidermis? Maybe the Great Beings invented antidermis for this purpose?

Of course, Takutanuva is evidence that this doesn't work if the antidermis is destined to transform.

 

But I also like the theory that it just returns the Matoran to their destiny.

[SarracenianKaijin]

One is the energy of the unvierse and the other its antithesis, the abscense of energy, the Absolute Entropy Element.

 

It stands to reason that both cannot exist at the same time, although one could say entropy would mean the decay of that energy.

 

Maybe that is why, Inika have four Zamor Spheres instead of the one like Piraka.

[TERIDAX941]

One is the energy of the unvierse and the other its antithesis, the abscense of energy, the Absolute Entropy Element.

 

It stands to reason that both cannot exist at the same time, although one could say entropy would mean the decay of that energy.

 

Maybe that is why, Inika have four Zamor Spheres instead of the one like Piraka.

All those theories are good, but it doesn't solve the problem that when Kraata are exposed to EP they change into Rahkshi... there must be some programming there, because you never hear of 'failed' Rahkshi creations, no matter what Makuta does it, they will always get a Rahkshi when they put a Kraata into EP. So, something is afoot there...

[ALVIS]

Well, we haven't heard of a lot of things in the workings of BIONICLE -- that doesn't mean they don't happen. Frankly, I think it quite likely that Rahkshi creation would have a moderate to high chance of failure. The reason it was never mentioned in the story was because it really wouldn't contribute much. "And then Makuta created six Rahkshi to plague the island of Mata Nui, except he had to do a few dozen go-overs because some of the kraata died horribly" doesn't make for a great story.

[TERIDAX941]

Well, we haven't heard of a lot of things in the workings of BIONICLE -- that doesn't mean they don't happen. Frankly, I think it quite likely that Rahkshi creation would have a moderate to high chance of failure. The reason it was never mentioned in the story was because it really wouldn't contribute much. "And then Makuta created six Rahkshi to plague the island of Mata Nui, except he had to do a few dozen go-overs because some of the kraata died horribly" doesn't make for a great story.

point taken. but they did tell of the horrible deaths that the kraata went through when they're transformed into shadow leeches, but ppl were real quiet on the subject of how successful the rahkshi were... though I'm guessing there were a lot more successes than failures, because the Makuta had hordes of those things, so they couldn't have had too much trouble haha

[LordofBionicles]

I think it's a bit simpler: perhaps the EP transforms the entire Matoran but the only change is the disappearence of the Antidermis, what I mean is there are no leftovers of EP on the Matoran's system or anything like that because it transformed it into a being with no Antidermis into his/her system.

[ALVIS]

WIth regards to the main topic, I always assumed that when EP transformed/destroyed an object/being, the EP that did the transforming underwent a chemical reaction and was no longer EP. Thus, after cleansing a Matoran of Teridax's antidermis, there wasn't any EP left to cause trouble for the Matoran.

[bonesiii]

Pretty sure Greg said Kraata are always destined to (slowly) transform into Rahkshi suits, and never get destroyed. (The slowness matters because then another Kraata can swim in, and not be either destroyed or noticeably transformed, take control of the suit, and bring it out of the EP.) Though it's good to be uncertain of it unless we get the quote dug up. But if a lot of them were destroyed between the time of Makuta's 01 defeat and the releasing of six Rahkshi (ergo 12 Kraata that all didn't get destroyed), that seems like Makuta would have to be able to make a LOT of Kraata in a really short time, so seems unlikely.

 

Bottom line is, the EP is "smart" (in a molecular sense; I'm not talking about the Entity) enough to tell how to handle special destinies. With Kraata, it knows to always make them slowly into Rahkshi. With gaseous antidermis controlling a Matoran, it knows to destroy the antidermis and leave the Matoran alone (whether or not that actually how it works; that's the effect). Considering protodermis in general is smart enough to handle far, far, far more complicated tasks (like your average protodermic power), this isn't surprising.

[fishers64]

*goes to drag it up*

 

 

TakumA: In one of the newsarticles where you answer some questions you said the bumps in the protodermis in the image below weren't kraata.



But in this newsarticle there's said that if a kraata is exposed to protodermis it evolves in to a Rahkshi. So what is it?



GregF: The official answer is that the bumps are kraata (that was in the topic I posted on the subject). However, they do not look exactly like kraata because the kraata toys were not designed at that point. Also, a kraata exposed to protodermis does evolve into a Rahkshi, but it doesn't happen in two seconds -- it takes time.

So there you go.

[TERIDAX941]

So there you go.

Oh really? I had no idea about that, I assumed those were the very very tips of the other Nuva's masks haha. Ah well. And that's handy knowing about the Rahkshi transformation. Learn something new everyday I reckon.

[NorikSigma]

I thought they were just grey-shaded versions of Tahu's mask for lulz by the graphic poster design team.

 

Also, the idea that the EP or AD is just sitting around after interaction is fallacious. Look at venoms. They contain Carbon for example. But Carbon isn't poisonous in other compounds. So maybe the energy is so strong that the two Materials just atomise completely. Plus, the Energy that makes EP EP or AD AD is probably cancelled out. So it's just atoms that might dissipate outside.