The Official OTC TBRPG Planning and Organization Topic

[Lara White]

Like Humva said, it feels like you're impugning my trustworthiness as a GM. I only backstab people in-game. The job of a GM is to enforce the rules. Someone who breaks their own rules should be removed from power.(I base this opinion on the many abuses of power I've been under in my time as a player. I hate abuses of power.)To sum up: I DO NOT CHEAT. Even when it is to my own detriment.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

For me, it's not that I don't trust the GM - 7.5 times out of 10, I trust them enough to roll dice. The problem is that, for me, dice-rolls take the fun out of it. Instead of one person swinging their sword (or shooting their gun, or whatever) and the other person deciding, on their own initiative, whether it hits (and where it hits if it does) and then doing whatever counter-move they feel like doing, it ends up boiling down to "I swing my sword" "GM rolls a 6, sword hits, dude loses an arm," "Armless dude says ow, attempts to kick the guy with the sword in the shin" "GM rolls a 1, Armless dude loses a leg".Yes, obviously the example is somewhat exaggerated for humor, but the point still stands.

[Lara White]

Hmmm...well, I can tell you that players will be able to influence the outcome of their die rolls under certain conditions, and said conditions are determined by the player. So, while gathering all the die roll bonuses you can will be important, the only thing out of player control is the 0 to 6 range that is the die roll itself. Describing the hit, their reaction, etc. etc. is all up the the player. Personally I see a lot of "I swing my sword" "I dodge" nonsense, this is partially a reaction to that, partially a "hey I saw a cool gameplay mechanic over there, I wanna see how well I can pull it off here." The reason I didn't like the "I dodge" shenanigans is that it can drag out a duel for months with both sides only getting minor injuries. Battles need to end sometime, and in this, they can.EDIT: Speaking of which, the game is almost finished, so hopefully I'll be able to post it today.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Lloyd: the White Wolf

[Blessed Blade]

Rover: No, no, no, it goes 'The armless dude refuses to believe that his arm is gone, and then kicks him in the shin, causing him to lose a leg'. =PAside from jokes, I'm staying neutral on this, as, while I've seen how well dice rolls can work in some games, I've also noticed how the RPG community here(And elsewhere, for that matter), do not like things that change up the typical RPG format of it being a community written story. Even the RTS RPGs are community written stories, IP costs or not.

[Lara White]

I will not be removing much from the "community-written-story" concept (I like it as much as you do), merely the "I hit you" "No you didn't" problem.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

I'm still uneasy about the dice-roll thing, but at this point I'm willing to go along with it just to see how it turns out.

[Jean Valjean]

I'm not confident with the dice-rolling deal myself. It seems like it would result in a string of very short posts that form a rather bland narrative, and it doesn't seem to fit the medium. If you want that you should play a table-top RPG, but these community-written RPGs should be treated more as interactive stories with a fluid narrative. I don't see why two people can't PM each other and form an agreement of what they want out of a confrontation. That's what I did back in the day.Your Honor,Tyrannosaurus Kraggh

[Alex Humva]

I'd like to say, since I'm going be the co-host on this, this will most certainly be a storied tale; I'd like to think all the time and thought and effort I put into the background would be put to good use. I'd also like to think that the cultural and societal intricacies I've been thinking of won't go to total waste.This is not "Bob attacked. Dice roll. Bob won. Hooray." This is traditional RPing, but with dice to solve if you get hit.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Sweetroll Thief Alex Humva

[Noxryn]

This is not "Bob attacked. Dice roll. Bob won. Hooray." This is traditional RPing, but with dice to solve if you get hit.

To me, the "I hit you, no you didn't" situation doesn't seem like one of those problems that really needs something like dice to get involved. Why not, instead, include in the rules to have two players come to an agreement about some parts of a fight (or even the outcome) if they're stuck in a spot where they're arguing about what happened and what did not? Or, instead, why not include the ol' "Not auto-hitting" rule along with a "No dodging everything" rule so that staff of the game can decide who gets hit and who doesn't? It seems like those options would keep it feeling more like a story-game, than the inclusion of arbitrary dice rolls that make the game feel more like it's a table-top RPG being played through the internet, instead of a communal story where character actions and reactions are influenced by the story that particular player wants to write, but are instead thrown to chance in circumstances that may be key to those stories.

[Lara White]

I'm not certain why you're concerned with it--introduction of one die mechanic isn't going to cause a massive diepocalypse unless other RPGs go nuts with it. Now, presented for your perusal:

Dulce et Decorum Est

“Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.” (It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.)

--Horace

Jan 3, 2034Another artillery bombardment today. I think five hours. Couldn’t sleep. Snowing again, mud is getting in my boots. Had to check my rifle for muck. I hope we get rotated away from the front soon.Jan 5, 2034Enemy attack yesterday. Don’t know why anyone would go through no man’s land—we’ve got about as much over here as they do over there. Jackson got shot by a sniper. Gave Sarge a letter for his sweetheart. I wish I had a sweetheart.Jan 6, 2034Orders from the rear. We go over the top today—the Lt. says we’re attacking while the other side is still licking their wounds from the 4^th. Wish me luck.The world is at war. Ebenion and Hyperborea, the two greatest world powers on the planet have broken a long-tense peace and declared war. Armies of millions engaged each other with cutting-edge “machine guns” and rifles capable of killing a man at 550 yards. The horse-drawn cannon of the past has been replaced by indirect-fire artillery and the exceedingly rare, armored cannon known as the “tank.” In this war, Napoleonic formations and tactics have no place. The war has stagnated for ten months, grunts dying in the trenches and foolhardy pilots being shot from the sky. The leadership on both sides are reluctant to move their naval forces into play, the threat of enemy U-Boats terrifying them into immobility.But there is one thing that might break the stalemate. One weapon that might cross the no man’s land alive, might escape the skies of lead unscathed, and might survive the predations of enemy U-Boats. That weapon is a mage.Propelled by new scientific techniques and apparati, the more superstitious men of science re-examine old myths and the writings of ancient alchemists. Their experiments, much to the surprise of their colleagues, bear fruit. However, there is one caveat: Only youths between the ages of sixteen and twenty-one can become mages. Young men are shipped back from the front or drafted from home, but only a few manage to survive the dangerous process of putting incredible power at their fingertips. Even fewer remain sane, for reasons unexplained. Those who are still combat-ready are sent to a three-week training camp to master their powers, and then deployed to the front.Both sides can only pray that this will end the war.Your Role:You are a soldier on the front lines of this world war, operating in a team where High Command chooses to deploy you, their most valuable assets. Choose your loyalty: will you fight for the worker’s paradise of Ebenion, or the free nation of Hyperborea? Choose your weapon: will you fight with magic, wielding the arcane arts to devastate your enemies in the trenches? Will you use a gun, cutting down foes at a distance? Or will you call in artillery from the skies and devastate your adversaries from a safe distance? You and your comrades in arms will determine the outcome of this bloody world war, and perhaps untangle the mystery as to why the tense peace shattered in the first place.Nations:World MapThe People’s Republic of Ebenion is a communist, monocameral republic whose chief of state is the General Secretary. It stands for total equality, the establishment of a classless society, and the destruction of the bourgeoisie and the transfer of their assets to the common worker. Due to its ideals, women are permitted to serve in its military equally with men, although Ebenion has had difficulty in eliminating the family unit. Technologically, Ebenion is somewhat backward, and its tanks and aircraft are inferior to those of Hyperborea.The Free State of Hyperborea is a capitalist republic, led by the President. Its ideals are individual freedom, opportunity for anyone to succeed, and free trade. It is more conservative than Ebenion, reluctant to radically alter the way of life that it has enjoyed for several centuries. Men are considered the protector of the family, and thus are the only ones permitted to be on the frontlines. Due to the healthy competition between Hyperborean companies, it has excellent technology.Knowing the Field of Battle:Every soldier has to know how to fight, and this is your primer on exactly that. This game uses a cut-down version of a proven system, adapted for brevity and BZPower’s phobia of dice. I want to see how it does here.Basics:The combat game takes place on a hexagonal field, which will be generated by the GM at the beginning of the fight and updated every turn.Every post is the characters taking actions in a turn; a GM post 'cycles' the turn through resolving actions, and outlining the new tactical scenario. Every turn characters get a two-phase series of actions.Actions are broken down into two Phases. Phase One must always occur before Phase Two.Phase One actions:

• [*]Pass: No action taken[*]Move: Move up to your character’s maximum Move[*]Dig In: No movement, change currently occupied space to a type of your choosing for one turn.

Phase Two actions:

• [*]Pass: No action taken[*]Attack: Initiate attack against specified target.[*]Defend: -1 to enemy attacks from a specified target for one turn.

Talking is a free action and players can make as many IC posts between turns as desired. However, only actions summarized in OOC counts as actions, and if multiple posts with such summarizations are made only the first will be considered. Once you commit to your action it may not be changed.Terrain:Terrain has been cut down significantly from the original version of this ruleset, which included three biomes, with different tiles inside each biome, and weather conditions. The Cutdown ruleset will use a much smaller selection of tiles, for simplicity’s sake.

• [*]Clear: Clear tiles do not hinder movement at all and provides no bonuses. These are tiles like fields or hills or roads. They require 1 Movement point to cross.[*]Slow: Slowing terrain provides no bonuses, but is more difficult to cross than Clear terrain. It includes things like marshes or roads at rush hour. They require 2 Movement points to cross.[*]Attack: Attack spaces are advantageous points to attack from, such as high ground or a concealed position. They give +1 to Attack and take 1 Movement to cross.[*]Defense: Defense tiles are hardened against attack, like a pillbox, bunker, foxhole, sandbagged position, etc. They give +1 to Defense and take 1 Movement to cross.[*]Damaging: Damaging tiles are dangerous to cross and deal 1 HP of damage for every turn spent on them. This does not apply to merely crossing terrain. They include areas such as fire or radioactive fallout or poison. They take 1 Movement to cross.[*]Sea: Sea tiles are impassable by land units. Sea units get +1 to Attack and Defense while on a Sea tile. They take 1 Movement for sea and air units to cross.

Character Attributes:The most important aspect of this is the character level. You will start at level 3, and you level up by killing enemies. Enemies killed yield XP equal to their level. The GM may also dispense XP for good roleplaying. When you level up, you add an attribute in one of three kinds of levels: Defense, Attack, or Unique. The caveat is that you must provide a situation in which the attribute activates. All attributes need to be approved by the GM before they are implemented. Examples will be provided.

• [*]Attack attributes give you +1 to attack, as the name implies. An example would be “Attack of Opportunity: +1 against enemies who Passed their last action.”[*]Defense attributes give you +1 to defense, as the name implies. An example would be “Elusive: -1 to enemy attacks when Character has less than 3 health left.”[*]Unique attributes are quite fun. You can pretty much do anything you want here as long as it has a condition and a gameplay effect and is within reason. Examples include “Guerrilla Warfare: Character is unaffected by terrain Attack penalties,” “Flying: Character is not affected by Movement or terrain damage penalties,” or “Seagoing: Character may travel over and take bonuses from Sea tiles.” However, this freedom comes with a price: you may have a maximum of three Unique attributes.

Some important points about levels: Health is determined by Levelx2, so if you are level 3, you have 6 health. The maximum level is 10. Once you reach level 10, instead of choosing another attribute, you choose a God Tier power.

• [*]God Tier powers are your one-time free pass to godmode. You may not insta-KO enemy units, but almost anything else is permissible. Due to the danger of this, these will be more closely scrutinized than attributes. Examples include “Enola Gay: All friendly units are protected from Enola Gay’s effects. All enemy units take 2d6 damage and all map tiles are turned into Damage tiles,” or “Standing Army: The player may summon a small army of mook units to help them in battle.”

Leveling up is determined by 2^Next Level, so the ladder looks like this:Lv 4: 16 XPLv 5: 32 XPLv 6: 64 XPLv 7: 128 XPLv 8: 256 XPLv 9: 512 XPLv 10: 1024 XPThankfully for you guys, XP is cumulative, so once you collect the 16 XP to get to level 4, you keep it to go toward your next level, and the level after that, etc. However, as you can tell it will take a very long time to reach level 10.When you collect enough XP to level up, you will level up at the end of the current battle. You do not level up in the middle of a fight.Combat:Combat is very simple. You move to put an enemy within your attack range (determined by what weapon type you select), declare OOC that you are attacking them (for clarity, please state the tile they are standing on), and the GM will roll a die to see the result of your attack.

• [*]0 damage[*]1 damage[*]2 damage[*]3 damage[*]4 damage[*]5 damage

Any attributes or terrain effects that might apply will be added directly to your die roll, which may exceed a six if circumstances so conspire.In the event that a character’s health reaches zero, they are automatically removed from the map. They are not, I repeat not killed unless the player specifies so.In the event that a player is unable to post for his character (explained or unexplained abscences), the players on his team may ask the GM to invoke the "NPC Protocol." This means that the missing player's character will be controlled by the consensus of his team until his return, and the protocol is intended to avoi having a battle stall.The Weapon Triangles:There are three types of weapons, and within those types there are three subtypes. If a unit’s weapon has a type advantage against his chosen target, he gets an automatic +1 to attack. The types are listed below.Magic:Magic is the most exotic weapon type out of the three, and is the only one to give attribute bonuses. However, it pays for this by having a short range, being able to only attack adjacent spaces. There are three kinds of magic: Alteration, Destruction, and Intention. Alteration simply allows you to manipulate the world around you to change its appearance and structure, gives +1 Defense, and trumps Destruction. Destruction is the ability to break things down, either slowly via rust or acid, or quickly, like creating an explosion. It gives +1 Attack and trumps Intention. Intention is more general, allowing telepathy, telekinesis, and seeing through lies and illusions. It neutralizes bonuses given by other forms of magic and trumps Alteration. Magic in general trumps Field GunsField Guns:Field Guns are large cannons fired from behind the lines. You, the player, do not carry these around—instead you serve as a spotter for these weapons, and radio back coordinates for them to attack. However, this mean you lack direct weapons, and you cannot call in fire on your own position. Field Guns have a range of 2-4 spaces. The different kinds of Field Guns are: Cannon, which is direct-fire weapons fired from pillboxes or tanks. This trumps Rockets. Rockets are self-propelled shells, striking a lot faster than artillery, which they trump. Artillery is the most well-known and venerable form, simply a large cannon serving indirect fire on a target. They trump Cannon. Field Guns in general trump Small Arms.Small Arms:Small arms are quite easy to explain. They are any weapon that can be carried by hand, and have a range of 1-2 spaces. Among these are Long Guns such as rifles (which trump Machine Guns), Machine Guns such as the Lewis Gun (which trump Hand Guns), and Hand Guns, i.e. pistols (which trump Long Guns). (Please note that the idea of the assault rifle and submachine gun have not yet been invented). Small Arms in general trump Magic.Profile:Rather important, if you plan to play. Simply fill out this form. If you would be so kind as to use the list function for the Attributes, it would make it a lot easier to read.Name: (Do I need to explain this?)Age: (See above)Appearance: (What does your character look like? Describe their build, eyes, hair, skin, as well as any clothing or armor they may be wearing.)Movement: (Determined by GM)Max Health: (Determined by level)Weapon: (State the weapon type and subtype, then describe the weapon itself.)Personality: (What do they like? What do they fear? What do they hate? What are the good at? What are they terrible at?)Bio: (A short version of their history.)Attributes: (Put a list of their attributes here.)The Laws and Customs of War:You can’t run a game without rules, but too many can get burdensome. I’ll keep it simple.Rules:

• [*]All BZP rules apply (do I really need to say this?).[*]Absolutely no GMing. This includes:
  • [*]Controlling other people’s characters without permission (either from that player or under the NPC protocol).[*]Killing characters without permission.[*]Autohitting. Whether an attack hits or not is not up to you. Let me deal with it.[*]Refusing to take a hit. If the die (and attributes) say you got hit, you got hit.

[*]Please be reasonable when specifying exactly what magic your characters can use. No nukes, no conjuring plagues, etc., etc. This also falls under GMing.[*]Please, please, please use good grammar and spelling in your posts. You would not believe how often people skim posts because they are a massive wall of uncapitalized text.[*]All characters and attributes must be approved by me (or, in the event of my absence, an assistant GM) before being put into play.[*]Have fun.

Punishments:

• [*]You will get a warning.[*]You will get a second warning. (I'm a believer in second chances).[*]Your character will be injured during combat or withheld from participating therein.[*]Your character will lose anywhere between one and ten attributes.[*]You will be temporarily banned from the game.[*]Your character will be killed.[*]You will be permanently banned from the game.

Finally, I want to give credit where credit is due. Alex Humva provided the idea of "World War I with magic!" and gave me suggestions and advice when I was stuck. SOCR (you probably don't know who that is) provided the original system that I cut down to provide for Dulce. Kothra was kind enough to provide the world map.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Lloyd: the White Wolf

[Archer Vonn]

I will not be removing much from the "community-written-story" concept (I like it as much as you do), merely the "I hit you" "No you didn't" problem.

that sounds no fun at all. combat is supposed to be there to outsmart your opponent, not to see who's luckier.

[Alex Humva]

Problem is, 'outsmarting' is relative. Ultimately you must figure out who is who, and between 'no autohitting' and 'no autododging' it gets... problematic to say the least.But don't get me wrong, RP based combat is by no means an impossible or ineffective system. However, it is not the only system. The only complaints I've seen so far against dice is "how do we know Lloyd isn't a cheating scumbag?" and "but RPing works too." The first is impossible to properly defeat because it's an argument from ignorance and the second is rebutted by what I said; just because RPing combat works, doesn't mean dice don't. It's like saying, uh, that analog clocks work therefore digital clocks are useless and/or don't. Both are different routes to the same thing.And in this case it's more like a watch with both analog and digital, as we still RP combat in this game.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Sweetroll Thief Alex Humva

[Toast of Awesomeness]

Okay, I love the story and setting. I was thinking it looked fun.But then I saw all these numbers.An RPG isn't a video game. You don't move to different "tiles", and roll a dice to see if you make a hit. There's not numbered attack damage and XP. A text-based RPG, at least the ones I've always seen and enjoyed here, is a story. A story shaped not by one author, but by many. Where people get to do things they'd never get to, and still interact with other people who have their own plans. This system seems incredibly constricting, and honestly, not very fun to play.

[Lara White]

I'm glad to hear some constructive criticism, however I'm a little confused. I've always been saying that the dice only determine hit/miss. Everything else is up to the player, and story is part of that. I won't be making die rolls to see if characters get ticked off at each other.Seriously, if you're putting me in the same boat as LevZev, I'm greatly offended. Look at his RPGs. now look at mine. Now back to his, and back to mine.Mine is a lot shorter and with waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less numbers. I have kept the whole numbers system restricted to one thing, and that is running around on the tac-map whacking each other. My logic went along the lines of "oh, we've got one-on-one fight, and we've got international fights, so let's cover the area in between--tactical-level fights.Again, I stress: RPing is still an important factor in this game. This is not a the-die-rules-all situation. I have kept the "damage" limited to only one area. There won't be any of the nonsense Xom had with "oh you failed a die roll, lose 1 Dreadnaught" or any genertic D&D type "you failed a die roll. Flee screaming like a little child."Seriously, if you guys are so concerned, would you like me to post an example of what the game would look like (inside combat of course. Outside combat, everything is the same as it always was.)

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Seriously, if you guys are so concerned, would you like me to post an example of what the game would look like (inside combat of course. Outside combat, everything is the same as it always was.)

Yes, thanks, because at the moment all I see is modified chess

[Noxryn]

1) Do we only have two options as a player? Play for one faction, or the other? No chance to design our own faction, or no chance to simply be unaffiliated with either faction? Must we play soldiers, or could we play civilians? It feels incredibly restrictive to say "You can play for this group, or this group and have to follow the story I create. No other options." (At least, that's how it seems from the "Your Role" area).2) Part of me would want to say no to the Communist designation of the one nation, for the communist governmental structure is a fairly hot topic in the political arena and a lot of people still treat the concept as an affront to their own political ideals. (Plus, it still plays a role with actual politics and may cause people to branch into discussion on the merits/demerits of communism and the affects it has had in the past and on today, which is political discussion). It's more due to it being a particularly controversial political topic, one that a lot of people get heated over.3) I really, really despise the battle system. Sure, maybe it does work in some cases but it's far too table-toppy. In real battles there isn't a hexagonal-set battlefield that is updated after turns, it's far more chaotic and the battlefield can extend and change pending on enemy movements and confounding variables. The "cycles" sound incredibly clunky, slow and completely inefficient when people could simply engage one another and hold individual fights in that manner, resolving disputes by acquiescing to a GM ruling on a situation or talking it out amongst themselves. (And what? "Move"? Characters are actually being used as literal chess pieces? Just like figurines on a tabletop set with a hexagonal playmat? There hardly seems to be any writing involved, it's all pointless "Bob moves to ____ and then takes cover" there's nothing else to it, there's no "Bob lunges across the barricade as the firing stopped, taking the brief window of opportunity to move down the hall as his allies covered him" (or something like that). People don't seem to be able to really act simultaneously, everything is far too organized... nothing is left to the creative imagination, there's simply no storytelling in the fighting with this system (and honestly, that's largely what a lot of TBRPG's here devolve into -- stories of fighting). What are the merits, outside of taking out a dispute that can be easily solved by a reliable GM and his/her staff? And this whole thing about tiles, I mean what? This is meant to be a communally written story, not a table-top RPG hosted online.In short, no I would not approve this. It's far, far, faaar too table-toppy and completely kills story telling in a lot of different areas. I honestly don't care if the dice "technically works" -- it's not a popular concept, as seen in this topic, and this game seems to completely detract from the main selling point of a TBRPG -- to use one's own imagination and writing to craft a story, not play some game better suited to the coffee table, or to the video game console of choice.

[Lara White]

Power--I'll have your example by tomorrow night at the latest--Humva and I are going to write it up jointly and he's a bit limited in his time here.Spink--Oh boy, where to begin.

• [*]What, we have to have customizable factions in every game now? When I was a whippersnapper we had two or three factions per game and we liked it. If it assuages your affronts in any way, A: you'd never want to be a civilian in a combat zone anyway, and no one likes non-combat games anyway. My failed espionage RPGs prove that. B: If you check the map, there are three unaffiliated minor countries--perhaps I could work something in there for ya.[*]I was a little worried about that. However, the reason I picked diametric opposites isn't to say which is better--it's more of a "blarg you're all cool dudes" kind of thing. If political discussions become a problem I can nix them.[*]You still don't seem to grasp how the combat system works. Just wait until we can get that combat example and your worries--at least, the one you voices in point three here--should be assuaged. There is plenty of room for "Bob lunges across the barricade as the firing stopped, taking the brief window of opportunity to move down the hall as his allies covered him" et al. I've stated and restated it but you don't seem to get that.

I'll try to get that combat example to you all as fast as I can.

[Jean Valjean]

Spink's right: this RPG lacks a sense of adventure, character development, and flexibility that your standard RPG is expected to have and replaces it all with a narrow objective to battle and battle. In short, I would not join it, and neither would most RPers, who like a diverse base of characters that encourages them to be unique. Of course, I'm on hiatus from RPing, but even if I wasn't, everything about the RPG turns me off because it goes against what I feel the RPing experience is all about. That, and it's just one more hypothetical scenario.It's annoying me now that I'm looking at the RPGs around BZPower and realize that most of them are just sci-fi and fantasy conflicts with with different battle lines. I don't want that, and if that's what it all amounts to then I'm literally going to never get past the opening synopsis. What a good RPG needs these days is a good sense of story and direction, not just setting.The final problem is once again with the combat system. If Spink can't tell where the line is drawn then I suspect the average RPer won't either, let alone join the game.Although the title, "Dulci et Decorum Est" is pretty cool, since I love that poem. Definitely keep that.Your Honor,Tyrannosaurus Kraggh Edited February 12, 2012 by Tyrannosaurus Kraggh

[Blessed Blade]

Well, what kind of story is there for most things that isn't either of those two things? Post apolocalypse? A lot of stuff can fit into fantasy or sci-fi, or even both; if only because of what seems to draw a lot of people: Characters who are super human in some way, or something that's just plain out of this world. Is there potential for RPGs to succeed that aren't combat driven or fantasy/sci fi? Probably, and I'd be interested in seeing that happen. However, a good chunk of stuff will be based on that.

[Noxryn]

What, we have to have customizable factions in every game now? When I was a whippersnapper we had two or three factions per game and we liked it. If it assuages your affronts in any way, A: you'd never want to be a civilian in a combat zone anyway, and no one likes non-combat games anyway. My failed espionage RPGs prove that. B: If you check the map, there are three unaffiliated minor countries--perhaps I could work something in there for ya.

They don't need to exist, but being able to do something outside of being stuck with one of the main two would give the potential player more options, and maybe more possibilities for writing a story (such as being a double agent, or a player who wants to focus a character on espionage). For the civilian thing, I more felt like referring to the possibility of some players maybe wanting to play civilians in some nations, while perhaps government agents from another country, which may work for an espionage sort of story (as maybe one player would like to do something of that nature, you never know) or for players to have characters they're involved with back "home" per se (Like, a soldier getting leave and able to visit family, friends, colleagues, acquaintences -- maybe a player(s) would concoct a little story of his/her/their own during this period that may have an effect on the character, or on that character's situation?) and I'd also say that it's far too definitive to say "no one likes non-combat games" as, quite frankly, I do enjoy the non-fighting aspect of TBRPG's a bit, as fightfightfight (rinse, repeat) can get horrendously dull over a short period of time, and it's nice to RP characters in different settings and situations (so they're not acting the same way every post). As for the last I wasn't sure whether or not those countries were actually useable by any means, and figured that they weren't (by how things were worded), so may I suggest including a part about like "If you want to do something involving one of the minor nations listed in the world map, send me a message so we could work something out." Personally, if I played it, I'd have an idea for a story with a character who isn't a soldier on the frontlines and who would be affiliated with a minor country, but I won't get into that right now for there's more points I should move on to.

I was a little worried about that. However, the reason I picked diametric opposites isn't to say which is better--it's more of a "blarg you're all cool dudes" kind of thing. If political discussions become a problem I can nix them.

I'm more tentative about it because I am staff here, and just like how we can't allow a TBRPG with modern religious factions fighting each other, it seems (to me) that we would have the same stance when it comes to modern political-ideals fighting against each other. I would suggest to perhaps nix the usage of "communism" (as that's the word that would, likely, lead to some argument amongst members that could delve into the political arena) and perhaps come up with a different word for it. I'd view that as acceptable, for not many people know how the system works (and jump to some crazy conclusions when the word is mentioned) and so calling it by something else might avert any political discussion or turmoil that could crop up otherwise.On this regard, I'm coming from a position where a wholly judge approved game was shot down by Than in the past due to it being to overt in the religious arena (sort of in this manner) and I'm applying that ruling to equally affect the political rule as well. (Which is why I figure renaming a relatively unknown system, in terms of how it functions, may work better -- sort of like how we've had Greek Mythology TBRPG's in the past, and could probably house a Roman one if someone had the idea to make that).

You still don't seem to grasp how the combat system works. Just wait until we can get that combat example and your worries--at least, the one you voices in point three here--should be assuaged. There is plenty of room for "Bob lunges across the barricade as the firing stopped, taking the brief window of opportunity to move down the hall as his allies covered him" et al. I've stated and restated it but you don't seem to get that.

From my perspective, the combat system feels too much like a table-top game system. It seems like, from what is said about it, that the characters are more or less pieces to be moved about an imaginary game board and that actions stack (like in many popular trading card games, from what I gather) and that the GM resolves every action. From a player perspective, it doesn't seem like a system that would work better than what is popularly used, in fact, it seems like it would be a lot slower (as the GM would have to keep up with every single fight, every action done by every player) and in order for fights/conflicts to be resolved players would be stuck waiting for the GM(s). For some people, it would potentially kill the chance to have a midnight RPing session with a friend or two (either in the topic, or via a jam session) and for others it would feel restrictive to ingenuity and writing. All of the actions seem like they would happen after the fact, as in, both players cannot be firing upon one another simultaneously, or smashing a particularly brutal battle in one post (done via a jam session or such), with both characters able to simultaneously react to one another, taking damage at the players' discretion and as per the players' plots (like, perhaps a player wishes to have a character lose an arm, or become blinded, but needs another player to further this -- it seems more like a punishment to be subjected to a fairly long, drawn out, numeral-rich battle system only to develop a character or to further a plotline).As a judge, a lot of players who have posted about this game seem to also dislike the battle-system, which likely means that many more in the TBRPG community may also dislike it and thus not play (which would kill the game pretty fast). There's so much to TBRPing that feels like its killed by this particular system, as it seems like things have much less to do with the surprise and suspense of battles in, like, novels and has more to do with predictability and nothing really coming at someone out of nowhere (a la, chess). Plus, it also seems like battles will take a much longer time to be resolved through this system, especially if a GM is not immediately available, and that it will be more of a hassle to the players than something that makes the game more fun. (It also seems like it gives GM's more to do than resolving a minor dispute would, and at a much higher toll). Generally, I'm all for new and interesting ideas of how to carry things on, but it just doesn't seem like this will make the game more fun and, to me and from some others who have voiced their opinions in this topic, it seems like it would detract the fun instead of augment it.I'll hold any more judgment until the example is done, as that would give a better insight to how you intend for this system to work, but as it's written it just seems like... well, what I described above.

[Lara White]

Spink's right: this RPG lacks a sense of adventure, character development, and flexibility that your standard RPG is expected to have and replaces it all with a narrow objective to battle and battle.

With all due respect, that is a daft accusation with no basis in fact whatsoever. They're teenagers with the weight of the world on their shoulders and horrors playing before their eyes on a daily basis and learning to doubt everything they've ever trusted in, how is that not food for character development? You'll be travelling all over the freaking continent, how is that not adventure? You'll be determining the course of a war, how is that not flexible?I am seriously insulted by your imprecations, sir.

In short, I would not join it, and neither would most RPers. Of course, I'm on hiatus from RPing, but even if I wasn't, everything about the RPG turns me off because it goes against what I feel the RPing experience is all about. That, and it's just one more hypothetical scenario.It's annoying me now that I'm looking at the RPGs around BZPower and realize that most of them are just sci-fi and fantasy conflicts with with different battle lines. I don't want that, and if that's what it all amounts to then I'm literally going to never get past the opening synopsis. What a good RPG needs these days is a good sense of story and direction, not just setting.Your Honor,Tyrannosaurus Kraggh

You know? I agree with you on that one. Too many games are just straight fightfests. Unfortunately, no one on BZP (except me and a select few others, apparently) want anything other than a fightfest. Note how Starscape was run--as a war simulator, not an international politics simulator. Strith Karla learned from that mistake, but Starscape still illustrates my point. To Save The World or whatever it is: black and white fightfest between superheroes and villains. Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Destiny: black and white fightfest in a fantasy world. Halo: Retribution: Black and white (possibly grey? Not sure) fightfest in a science fiction world.No one wants a game that doesn't have combat. I'm simply trying another format of combat. Given, the story is about as far from black and white as World War One was (fitting, considering it's based off of World War One), but I'm experimenting. If you look at the RPGs I make, that's what I do. Night of Infinity was the first Bionicle Science Fiction RPG on BZP--smashing success (just ask Kini). Darkspace was the first RPG to let the players control the storyline to such an extent that when they messed up, the badguys won. Permanently. Cradle of Civilization was the first RPG to simulate the advancement of technology from nothing to sheer fortresses (unfortunately the forum upgrade killed its activity). The Island, which suffered because I was offline at the time, was the first RPG Contest entry to introduce a Mafia-style mechanic to an RPG.I experiment. I shake the boat. I upset the status quo. This is just the same thing.

so may I suggest including a part about like "If you want to do something involving one of the minor nations listed in the world map, send me a message so we could work something out." Personally, if I played it, I'd have an idea for a story with a character who isn't a soldier on the frontlines and who would be affiliated with a minor country

I'll do that, thanks for the advice. And yes, I'd love to focus on espionage, but no one else seems interested. If you want to make an espionage-based character, go right ahead.

. I would suggest to perhaps nix the usage of "communism" (as that's the word that would, likely, lead to some argument amongst members that could delve into the political arena) and perhaps come up with a different word for it. I'd view that as acceptable, for not many people know how the system works (and jump to some crazy conclusions when the word is mentioned) and so calling it by something else might avert any political discussion or turmoil that could crop up otherwise.

Will do.

in fact, it seems like it would be a lot slower (as the GM would have to keep up with every single fight, every action done by every player) and in order for fights/conflicts to be resolved players would be stuck waiting for the GM(s).

Hence the existence of an assistant GM. I've seen this problem crop up before, which is why I added the assistant GM position to avoid it. (I confess I didn't know about the requirement for a co-GM until Humva told me).

For some people, it would potentially kill the chance to have a midnight RPing session with a friend or two (either in the topic, or via a jam session) and for others it would feel restrictive to ingenuity and writing.

Well the obvious solution is to have a GM present, but you do have a point. It'd be a bit slower than normally possible. Those of us who enjoy strategy RPGs, however, have enjoyed this system in the past.

All of the actions seem like they would happen after the fact, as in, both players cannot be firing upon one another simultaneously, or smashing a particularly brutal battle in one post (done via a jam session or such), with both characters able to simultaneously react to one another, taking damage at the players' discretion and as per the players' plots (like, perhaps a player wishes to have a character lose an arm, or become blinded, but needs another player to further this -- it seems more like a punishment to be subjected to a fairly long, drawn out, numeral-rich battle system only to develop a character or to further a plotline).

Well, it certainly wouldn't happen in one post, no, but I don't see why any RPed fight I've ever been in couldn't be applied to this system. It wouldn't be hard to have a hit cause a lost arm or eye or whatever--I don't have a table sitting around saying "6--put out an eye" or "2--take off a leg." Once your character takes damage, it would be very easy to choose, by yourself, how they're injured.

As a judge, a lot of players who have posted about this game seem to also dislike the battle-system, which likely means that many more in the TBRPG community may also dislike it and thus not play (which would kill the game pretty fast).

I'm trying to get people to experiment with something new. If they don't want to, it's a tragic loss of new experience. If they're willing to try it, then I can refine it and make it more enjoyable. However, I do intend to try and sway as many people to my side--as you may have noticed.

There's so much to TBRPing that feels like its killed by this particular system, as it seems like things have much less to do with the surprise and suspense of battles in, like, novels and has more to do with predictability and nothing really coming at someone out of nowhere (a la, chess).

Hahaha...oh boy. Where to start. Let me just say that as someone who's played this game, Murphy's Law of Combat applies fully. No plan survives contact with the enemy. There's nothing like that first moment when you realize "oh shoot, that artillery has a lot longer range than I thought it did."

Plus, it also seems like battles will take a much longer time to be resolved through this system, especially if a GM is not immediately available, and that it will be more of a hassle to the players than something that makes the game more fun. (It also seems like it gives GM's more to do than resolving a minor dispute would, and at a much higher toll).

I don't mind the added work, and if it buries me, again, that's what the assistant GM is for. Fights would take longer, but the NPC protocol prevents them from stalling due to absent players.I hope I've been able to address everything fairly magnanimously (aside from Kraagh's first point...that was pretty insulting to me personally) to your satisfaction. I'm glad you're willing to wait until we have an example. Edited February 12, 2012 by Lloyd: the White Wolf

[Jean Valjean]

From what I've noticed, players like to invent characters who break the mold from time to time, so it's entirely possible that a person may want to play as a civilian who has noting to do with combat just to try something different.To Fullbringer, I'm not criticizing RPGs for generally being of the same genre. Heck, it's the genre that I want to play as well. I guess that stuff like Strio Karla and Dulce et Decorum Est are based on rather impersonal conflicts and what I see is just a proposal for a setting and a hypothetical scenario. What I feel is that a conflict and a plot are two different things, and I wouldn't join and RPG unless it felt from the get-go that there was an inherent plot. I remember in some of the RPGs of the past - back when I was into RPGs - important characters in the game were included in the pitch and I found that they were more accessible and made the RPG immediately more involving. I'm saying accessible main characters are the key, but some element that can get the player character involved in a more personal way. I think people judge RPGs not on the situation, but based on how much opportunity they have to create their own stories and their own interesting character arcs.Dang, I'm not sure if I delivered a coherent point there. Perhaps Strio Karla will turn out well and of course the players who help it succeed will enjoy it. But what I'm waiting for is something that makes it apparent at once that my individual characters are important and that the setting of the RPG is there specifically to aid the RPer in his or her private initiatives. Of course, this is coming from a guy who only ever participated full-time in the "Reality RPG" (but that eventually degenerated into a war between God-mods that caused me to give up on it, although before that it was pretty cool how almost all of the story arcs were connected in some way).Your Honor,Tyrannosaurus Kraggh Edited February 12, 2012 by Tyrannosaurus Kraggh

[Blessed Blade]

Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Destiny: black and white fightfest in a fantasy world.

Err... Actually, there's only been a handful of fights, so far. There's been a lot of sneaking around, or just plain talking right now, more so than fighting. There's been fighting in the dungeons that pop up, of course, but a totally puzzle-based dungeon isn't out of the question, and might actually be happening shortly. I can't comment any further than that, however, not right now. =P

I think people judge RPGs not on the situation, but based on how much opportunity they have to create their own stories and their own interesting character arcs.

I would actually agree with that, because, well, I believe it. The question is, however, if that fits in the story or not. *Remembers how I shoved Zero/Megaman X into the old Dragon Ball Z RPG* ... Yeah... Not the greatest idea I had, to be honest. =P Did not help a bit that I had approval from the guy who was running that to do an arc or two. >>'

[Lara White]

Blade: I'm just judging from the opening post, because that's what my RPG is being judged on.

From what I've noticed, players like to invent characters who break the mold from time to time, so it's entirely possible that a person may want to play as a civilian who has noting to do with combat just to try something different.To Fullbringer, I'm not criticizing RPGs for generally being of the same genre. Heck, it's the genre that I want to play as well. I guess that stuff like Strio Karla and Dulce et Decorum Est are based on rather impersonal conflicts and what I see is just a proposal for a setting and a hypothetical scenario. What I feel is that a conflict and a plot are two different things, and I wouldn't join and RPG unless it felt from the get-go that there was an inherent plot. I remember in some of the RPGs of the past - back when I was into RPGs - important characters in the game were included in the pitch and I found that they were more accessible and made the RPG immediately more involving. I'm saying accessible main characters are the key, but some element that can get the player character involved in a more personal way. I think people judge RPGs not on the situation, but based on how much opportunity they have to create their own stories and their own interesting character arcs.

Personally, I've always found that including profiles for important NPCs has been more of an indicator that the plot is all in the hands of the GM--if you look at Cradle of Civilization, you'll see that it has no important NPCs, just an example profile which is my personal character--but I understand where you're coming from. I did try to give the sense that the plot is in the hands of the players: they're the Spartans to the mooks' Space Marines and occasional ODST, but apparently I failed.

Dang, I'm not sure if I delivered a coherent point there. Perhaps Strio Karla will turn out well and of course the players who help it succeed will enjoy it. But what I'm waiting for is something that makes it apparent at once that my individual characters are important and that the setting of the RPG is there specifically to aid the RPer in his or her private initiatives. Of course, this is coming from a guy who only ever participated full-time in the "Reality RPG" (but that eventually degenerated into a war between God-mods that caused me to give up on it, although before that it was pretty cool how almost all of the story arcs were connected in some way).Your Honor,Tyrannosaurus Kraggh

As I said, your private initiatives are what drive the story forward. Think of it this way: If Master Chief flipped out and quit before blowing up Installation 04, the story would have gone a lot differently. If he'd refused the Arbiter's help because he was racist, it'd have gone differently. So on and so forth.That being said, there are some plot twists regarding how this situation came about that you guys are capable of uncovering. But I'll leave actually finding them up to you.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

As I said, I'm willing to see how this turns out at this point. I'm uncomfortable with the table-toppy-ness, and would like to point out that, while Starscape was run as a space combat thingy, it ended up being space politics for the most part, and, indeed, that's part of why Xom pulled the plug.

[Lara White]

Quick question: aside from the ability to RP a fight, is there anything else you want to see? Because that's what most of these complaints seem to boil down to. I'm trying to please you guys and still keep my experiment going, but it helps if I have clear guidelines. It's a littlefrustrating when I come up with something that I think you guys will like and then you start complaining.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

My only problem with what's there is that I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of dice-rolls, but as that's one I'm willing to put aside, I really should just shut up and go climb back in my little box.

[Archer Vonn]

here's the pitch-few hundred years in the future, enough for space travel to seem reasonable. humanity has recently discovered an inhabitable planet already inhabited by a wide variety of species, but while it is versatile, it's not very developed in terms of technology, thinking aztec or mayan level technology. so while humanity tries to colonize it, human businessmen see the war as an opportunity to plunder the planet, including its many mysterious temples. the primary focus of the RPG is team play. in a war-based rpg it means for team vs team tactics and strategies, but i also want to see how team vs environment element works out. the basic idea is that the other GM and i come up with challenges that take place in the temples, and that the adventures/mercenary teams can work together to solve puzzles, similar to the dungeons in skyrim or what indiana jones does.thoughts?

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

here's the pitch-few hundred years in the future, enough for space travel to seem reasonable. humanity has recently discovered an inhabitable planet already inhabited by a wide variety of species, but while it is versatile, it's not very developed in terms of technology, thinking aztec or mayan level technology. so while humanity tries to colonize it, human businessmen see the war as an opportunity to plunder the planet, including its many mysterious temples.the primary focus of the RPG is team play. in a war-based rpg it means for team vs team tactics and strategies, but i also want to see how team vs environment element works out. the basic idea is that the other GM and i come up with challenges that take place in the temples, and that the adventures/mercenary teams can work together to solve puzzles, similar to the dungeons in skyrim or what indiana jones does.thoughts?

If you can come up with good puzzles that translate well into a TBRPG setting, it might work.Unless the pitch is being made to make an obscure point about somebody else's pitch, in which case huh?

[Archer Vonn]

i'm pitching my own rpg.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

Okay. In that case the response along the lines of "It should be pretty cool as long as the puzzles are clever."

[Archer Vonn]

i'm very arrogantly clever. it'll work out very well about 40% of the time and the rest of them should be passable if slightly annoying.

[Alex Humva]

So 40% Portal and 60% Super Scribblenauts Adjective Levels?Eh, I'd give it a go just for the good stuff.

[Comment Expired]

If you want dice, why not just do the RPG externally with a client?Heck, set up a D20 system with MapTool, Fantasy Grounds, Vassal, OpenRPG, or GameTable.BZP is for roleplaying, not number-crunching.I'd totes recommend you a great site for this sort of thing, but can't due to BZP's rule so oh well.

[Toast of Awesomeness]

here's the pitch-few hundred years in the future, enough for space travel to seem reasonable. humanity has recently discovered an inhabitable planet already inhabited by a wide variety of species, but while it is versatile, it's not very developed in terms of technology, thinking aztec or mayan level technology. so while humanity tries to colonize it, human businessmen see the war as an opportunity to plunder the planet, including its many mysterious temples. the primary focus of the RPG is team play. in a war-based rpg it means for team vs team tactics and strategies, but i also want to see how team vs environment element works out. the basic idea is that the other GM and i come up with challenges that take place in the temples, and that the adventures/mercenary teams can work together to solve puzzles, similar to the dungeons in skyrim or what indiana jones does.thoughts?

Avatar + puzzles?Eh, seems pretty cool. I'd play it, if I could be an alien.

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Quick question: aside from the ability to RP a fight, is there anything else you want to see? Because that's what most of these complaints seem to boil down to. I'm trying to please you guys and still keep my experiment going, but it helps if I have clear guidelines. It's a littlefrustrating when I come up with something that I think you guys will like and then you start complaining.

More freedom in character creation. We all have to start off at the same level, which means I can't choose to lay as, say, a level 4 captain who's lengthened experience with the war has made him world-weary and veering on mutinous. Or a level-1 farmer in one of the Lorstons who's holding out for a loved one in the army. This is putting aside the dislike I have of putting levels/movement/health in a profile to begin with...And we have to have a bunch of set attributes fitting into those categories of yours, which is what first led me into thinking of the chess analogy. You might as well say that one of our attributes is that we can only move along diagonals

[Alex Humva]

Um, Power, quick question; why do you protest the level start here, but didn't do so when I got not one, not two, but three Outbreaks past you?

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

As I recall I did complain about the levels system in that but I could see you needed them for functionality so let them slide. Plus there was always a chance that you could outwit or outmanoeuvre a higher-level character even if you were a speck compared to them in terms or raw power. Here...not so much. A higher-level character has more health, has more movement and has more attributes. I see no way of stopping them.This is why I would prefer to see this example of RPing Lloyd mentioned. Because otherwise I cannot disassociate the game with something to be played on a table rather then online

[Alex Humva]

Well, me and Lloyd are working on it, but thanks to life it might not be done today. We'll try all the same.But honestly I have to agree with you on the level disadvantage thing. A level three facing a level ten simply doesn't stand a chance mathematically, and that is something me and Lloyd will try to figure out how to solve. Because on one hand it makes sense; a level ten obviously has had a lot more experience fighting thus knows a lot more than a newbie. Would you expect in the real world for some freshly minted enlisted private who went up against an experienced veteran officer lieutenant commander to win? They might, by some chance, but most probably not. This is why we have dice; not so we can say 'Bob rolls six, he wins. Hooray', but so we can RP and come to a kinda-sorta fair conclusion from attacks.But at the same time, it means unless new players luck out, they'll get destroyed in combat against vets. So it's a mixed bag.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Sweetroll Thief Alex Humva

[Lara White]

If you want dice, why not just do the RPG externally with a client?Heck, set up a D20 system with MapTool, Fantasy Grounds, Vassal, OpenRPG, or GameTable.BZP is for roleplaying, not number-crunching.

*coughIPSystemcough*

I'd totes recommend you a great site for this sort of thing, but can't due to BZP's rule so oh well.

Shoot me a PM or something, then. *shrug* I like exploring new things, I'm willing to hear ya out if you can figure out a way to get it to me privately.