Matoran "birth"

[Sybre]

I've been thinking about this for a very long time, and I decided to ask:Can Matoran actually be "born" or created or is a certain amount put into the universe and no more are added? If they are somehow born, how does it happen?This is the place to discuss it.-Kreos

[ALVIS]

We do​ know that more Matoran could be made in Metru Nui, by the will of the Turaga, and that Artakha and the Makuta had the capacity and materials to create Matoran. But how Matoran are exactly created is something Greg and the other story writers always swore would be kept a secret, intentionally.

[dee.3x3]

I too have been pondering this lately, isn't it something to do with protodermis?

[Hexann]

But how Matoran are exactly created is something Greg and the other story writers always swore would be kept a secret, intentionally.

Why would they do that?

[Sybre]

We do​ know that more Matoran could be made in Metru Nui, by the will of the Turaga, and that Artakha and the Makuta had the capacity and materials to create Matoran. But how Matoran are exactly created is something Greg and the other story writers always swore would be kept a secret, intentionally.

That is something I have failed to think of.

I too have been pondering this lately, isn't it something to do with protodermis?

That is not likely, because protodermis is normally a key component of weapons, tools, armor, and more.

But how Matoran are exactly created is something Greg and the other story writers always swore would be kept a secret, intentionally.

Why would they do that?

Even during the end of secret-filled series, there are still secrets are still kept. Maybe Greg wanted us to come up with something. I don't really know.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

If Makuta could do it, would they use viruses like they would to create a Rahi?

[Athmos]

Probably not. Matoran had 'brains' able to do critical thinking. Rahi just did what their instinct told them to. I think it was a complicated process.

[Ektris]

How Matoran were created was also an intentional secret we were never going to - and will never, now - learn.I do not recall it every being said that Makuta could create Matoran. In fact, I do believe it was just the opposite.All we know is that they could be made and were whenever they were needed, but nothing more.~|ET|~

[WeatherDragon]

Yes, Greg and the story team has kept it a secret so far and probably will forever.

[Alyska]

Matoran Factory. They build Matoran.

[PDPsi HAN]

I too have been pondering this lately, isn't it something to do with protodermis?

That is not likely, because protodermis is normally a key component of weapons, tools, armor, and more.

Not necessarily. Protodermis is the main component of the mechanical part of their bodies, aka the "armor".

[Tenebrae Invictus]

Matoran Factory. They build Matoran.

Yes, I heard there was a worker there who screwed up the creation process and they made a deformed Matoran. The Turaga said it couldn't do any work, and the worker's only response that day was, "Sorry, it's my first day on the job!"On topic, like people have said earlier, creation is a deliberately mysterious process that is done only by will of Turaga.Ah, these topics always come around. Edited May 14, 2012 by Tenebrae Invictus

[P~M]

Matoran Factory. They build Matoran.

Yes, I heard there was a worker there who screwed up the creation process and they made a deformed Matoran. The Turaga said it couldn't do any work, and the worker's only response that day was, "Sorry, it's my first day on the job!"On topic, like people have said earlier, creation is a deliberately mysterious process that is done only by will of Turaga.Ah, these topics always come around.

I don get it...

[fishers64]

They're not "born" - they're built by Turaga, Artahka, and others using machines, parts, and organic matter.

Matoran Factory. They build Matoran.

Yes, I heard there was a worker there who screwed up the creation process and they made a deformed Matoran. The Turaga said it couldn't do any work, and the worker's only response that day was, "Sorry, it's my first day on the job!"On topic, like people have said earlier, creation is a deliberately mysterious process that is done only by will of Turaga.Ah, these topics always come around.

I don get it...

What don't you get?The post Tenebrae quoted was a play on "Hero Factory: We build Heroes". I'm assuming his commentary was as well...

[Tenebrae Invictus]

They're not "born" - they're built by Turaga, Artahka, and others using machines, parts, and organic matter.

Matoran Factory. They build Matoran.

Yes, I heard there was a worker there who screwed up the creation process and they made a deformed Matoran. The Turaga said it couldn't do any work, and the worker's only response that day was, "Sorry, it's my first day on the job!"On topic, like people have said earlier, creation is a deliberately mysterious process that is done only by will of Turaga.Ah, these topics always come around.

I don get it...

What don't you get?The post Tenebrae quoted was a play on "Hero Factory: We build Heroes". I'm assuming his commentary was as well...

The first remarks were a reference to Ordeal of Fire.

[Ektris]

They're not "born" - they're built by Turaga, Artahka, and others using machines, parts, and organic matter.

No, we don't know that for sure at all. We know a Turaga can order their creation, but we do not know if they directly build them or are in any way involved in the process after getting it started.~|ET|~

[bonesiii]

In addition to the above answers, we know that there are certain machines in Metru Nui that handle this, since Greg confirmed that on Spherus Magna these can be retrieved so more Matoran can be made on SM. What we don't know is how these machines operate, what raw materials or energies might be needed to run them, etc. except that apparently it requires a Turaga's approval (though that might just be a legal/governmental issue, not part of a machine's programming).Greg also answered why they intended to never reveal it. Essentially they felt that to reveal the specifics of how this worked would ruin the mystique of Matoran, that it was cooler if this key mystery was one that was always open for fans to wonder about. Mystery is a big part of what made Bionicle great, so to solve everything would rob it of its mystery, and this one goes right to the heart of Bionicle, the people (Matoran) that populate it.We do also know that Matoran can rebuild themselves, so it's not much of a stretch to theorize that the origin machines do the same basic thing, for most of the bodies anyways. Brains might be quite different.

I too have been pondering this lately, isn't it something to do with protodermis?

Everything in the MU has something to do with protodermis, because everything there is made out of it.

That is not likely, because protodermis is normally a key component of weapons, tools, armor, and more.

You seem to have heard a false rumor or something that protodermis is just one material in the MU, no, everything there is some type of protodermis. Not just a "key component" either -- all of it is protodermis. (This does not apply to Spherus Magna though; but for more detail I recommend looking up protodermis on BS01. ) Edited May 15, 2012 by bonesiii

[P~M]

They're not "born" - they're built by Turaga, Artahka, and others using machines, parts, and organic matter.

Matoran Factory. They build Matoran.

Yes, I heard there was a worker there who screwed up the creation process and they made a deformed Matoran. The Turaga said it couldn't do any work, and the worker's only response that day was, "Sorry, it's my first day on the job!"On topic, like people have said earlier, creation is a deliberately mysterious process that is done only by will of Turaga.Ah, these topics always come around.

I don get it...

What don't you get?The post Tenebrae quoted was a play on "Hero Factory: We build Heroes". I'm assuming his commentary was as well...

The first remarks were a reference to Ordeal of Fire.

I SEE HOW IT ISI still can't get myself to want to see the HF movies, so the reference was lost on me.I got the Matoran Factory part, though. I knew that much. Edited May 15, 2012 by Totally Not P~M

[Toatapio Nuva]

I always imagined creating new Matoran would require some pre-existing Matoran to sacrifice part of their life force. I hate the idea Matoran would be built like machines, cause they're not. I'd also like to think there have been many "generations" of Matoran, so that Hahli, for example, didn't exist from the beginning of everything. But that's just my opinion, nothing to do with any facts.So they're just robots. Sigh...

[bonesiii]

I always imagined creating new Matoran would require some pre-existing Matoran to sacrifice part of their life force. I hate the idea Matoran would be built like machines, cause they're not. I'd also like to think there have been many "generations" of Matoran, so that Hahli, for example, didn't exist from the beginning of everything. But that's just my opinion, nothing to do with any facts.So they're just robots. Sigh...

I'm quoting this just because this is a great example of something I should have added to my above post. Since Matoran are so loved as characters a lot of fans have strong emotions about them, and like revealing Teridax's name, would either love or hate (at least a lot of people) whichever answer was confirmed. So it's better to leave this one up to the imagination.Plus, it doesn't really make a major plot difference how they're made, other than that those machines are involved somehow, so there's no "need to know."

[Dralcax]

A factory in the MU somewhere, probably.

[Sybre]

A factory in the MU somewhere, probably.

That just doesn't seem right. I mean, the Matoran aren't robots. They're biomechanical. They might have been "born" or something somehow.

[bonesiii]

A factory in the MU somewhere, probably.

That just doesn't seem right. I mean, the Matoran aren't robots. They're biomechanical. They might have been "born" or something somehow.

The machines that make them may very well be biomechanical too. We really don't know.But I always sort of imagined that the biological components, namely the brain, were grown something like Matrix babies, and the metal components forged, and these machines just attach all those different parts.

[fishers64]

They're not "born" - they're built by Turaga, Artahka, and others using machines, parts, and organic matter.

No, we don't know that for sure at all. We know a Turaga can order their creation, but we do not know if they directly build them or are in any way involved in the process after getting it started.~|ET|~

Fair enough; the process could be (and probably should be) automated once begun. My "head-canon" () always visaulized the origins of Matoran as organic parts grown in vats that were sheathed up and bonded to a vast array of compact computer hardware, and then the armour would be fitted on. Kinda like a factory, except maybe a bit more streamlined and probably with an observing inteligence in case something went wrong. But I can see how that could annoy some people if that were official, seeing as it makes the GBs into little mad scientists. :/

[Neelh]

Apparently there was a dome thing in Metru Nui that made Matoran fully-grown.Whihch made me sad, as I always wondered what a pregnant Matoran would look like.

[Maganar]

But I can see how that could annoy some people if that were official, seeing as it makes the GBs into little mad scientists. :/

After most of the Spherus Magna-related revelations, I was already under the impression that the GBs were little mad scientists...emphasis on completely mad. I guess that much wouldn't be changed for me if that was made canon!But I still agree with the general consensus that no matter what would be revealed, a lot of people would be unhappy if a canon explanation was granted for this. There are just to many different ways to interpret what we know so far that everyone has accepted into their own personal views of canon. I doubt I would be happy with any canon take on this of one was given. I'm somewhere near Toatapio's camp with my personal take on canon and, as things are, that take on canon is still technically possible. It is likely, however, considering the directions GregF chose, that any canon revelation would have finally excluded that possibility. I will happily settle for this subject remaining the mystery it currently is.

[Indigogeek]

I believe most were made by the great beings to serve as workers in the MN robot.

[Cambion]

I can definitely see Greg's point in not disclosing this bit of information, but due to the kind of person I am, knowing that he did in fact have an answer to this question and won't ever be telling anyone seriously annoys me. XPThen again, I've never been completely on board with the whole fact that Toa, Matoran, etc., are actually just robots. It makes them seem less like people to me, as though the fact that they had pre-defined personalities detracts from that. I guess, though, that that isn't really true, seeing as they are incredibly advanced robots with organic parts and whatever.Anyway. That leads into the fact that I'd actually rather like to see an explanation for this. Yes, I always imagined it one way (less like being built in a factory, more just a sort of coalescing of elemental energy or something stupid like that). But I have a feeling that no matter what my idea is about this subject, Greg's is going to be different, and I can deal with that.

[Vandenreich]

I wish Greg just did give the answer it would solve alot of the ''Romance'' things and end the mass confusion and. I dont see any negetive outcome from knowing.In my opinion they should have organic brains it would be better then just an organic lung and a few muscles.I guess there could be some object that creates them like the ''Allspark'' In some Transformers continuitys.

[Cambion]

I wish Greg just did give the answer it would solve alot of the ''Romance'' things and end the mass confusion and. I dont see any negetive outcome from knowing.In my opinion they should have organic brains it would be better then just an organic lung and a few muscles.I guess there could be some object that creates them like the ''Allspark'' In some Transformers continuitys.

I don't see what's wrong with there being romance in the canon, even if...reproduction...isn't possible. Romance could still exist, as having affection for another seems to be possible for Matoran. Edited May 21, 2012 by Architect

[avmatoran]

Neelh, that is... strange, to say the least.I agree that romance is definitely possible, I think it's happened in canon. As for Matoran creation, I think a machine would build the armor/body, but I don't know what they would do with the brain and other organics and DNA and stuff like that.

[Vandenreich]

I know that its possible and have no problem with it. But Greg said thier isnt any romance and any example's of it like Huki and Macku in MNOLG Are ''Non-cannon'' which IMO was pointless to do I mean, why get rid of something that could add to character depth.Anyways on topic. Well I guess it could be like a Cloning proccess. since orignally the Matoran wernt designd to have Setenitince.so they wouldnt need to design each indivually just one Deisgn and a bunch of Carbon copys. Since besides elements and Masks most Matoran on Metru-Nui are identical save for differant personalitys which spawns from their being setenint.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Deltus

[Neelh]

Guys. Nothing will stop the fan's romance. A fangirl could be the last person on earth and still find two things to pair together.

[Cambion]

I know that its possible and have no problem with it. But Greg said thier isnt any romance and any example's of it like Huki and Macku in MNOLG Are ''Non-cannon'' which IMO was pointless to do I mean, why get rid of something that could add to character depth.Anyways on topic. Well I guess it could be like a Cloning proccess. since orignally the Matoran wernt designd to have Setenitince.so they wouldnt need to design each indivually just one Deisgn and a bunch of Carbon copys. Since besides elements and Masks most Matoran on Metru-Nui are identical save for differant personalitys which spawns from their being setenint.

Note that the MNOLG is considered canon by most fans anyway. It isn't by Greg because the developers of MNOLG weren't affiliated with the story team. At this point, though, it does seem silly for him not to have counted it as canon, seeing as it's viewed as such by the BZPower fanbase, which he included so many fanon submissions from over the last few years.And @Neelh: You just about nailed it right on the head. Shippers gonna ship, and fans are always going to be bending the rules of the story in some way.

[bonesiii]

Then again, I've never been completely on board with the whole fact that Toa, Matoran, etc., are actually just robots. It makes them seem less like people to me, as though the fact that they had pre-defined personalities detracts from that. I guess, though, that that isn't really true, seeing as they are incredibly advanced robots with organic parts and whatever.

They're not robots. They're people, essentially like us (though not at all related, of course; "aliens"). If Angonce's reaction to this discovery is typical, then it seems to me it's not that the GBs hoped they wouldn't become people and would remain robots mentally, but rather they thought mental robots was the best they could achieve, and (like Angonce) would be thrilled to learn they actually made true artificial intelligence. :)Of course, them being people allowed for all the problems caused by Makuta and the like, so maybe the GBs would be disturbed about that, but the discovery was made right about when those problems were finally overcome and the planet was reformed. Aaaand maybe Angonce isn't typical, I dunno. Just sayin'.

I wish Greg just did give the answer it would solve alot of the ''Romance'' things

How so? We already know that the MU beings cannot feel romantic feelings, and we already know new Matoran are made via machines of some unknown kind. I never got the impression learning how those machines worked would add anything further to the topic of their lack of romantic feelings...

In my opinion they should have organic brains it would be better then just an organic lung and a few muscles.

This isn't exactly on-topic, but we don't know that the brains aren't organic. The lungs and muscles are merely the confirmed organic parts. I tend to think their brains are organic too, and that explains how they attained sapience. :)Could be wrong, though, and I'm fine with it remaining a mystery. As a fan of Data from Star Trek TNG, it's just as plausible to me that an artificial, or perhaps crystalline brain could become sapient too.

I don't see what's wrong with there being romance in the canon

It isn't that there would be anything wrong with it, it is simply that there isn't. It's an alien society whose sapience and apparently emotional capabilities were not intended by their programmers, so it's completely plausible that even though they accidently attained sapience they wouldn't just happen to get all the same feelings as the Agori, Glatorian, and presumably GBs were capable of.And really IMO it's pointless to stress out about it, since we know they're capable of love (as in brotherly love) and are capable of especially close friendships, so it's basically the same thing.

I know that its possible and have no problem with it. But Greg said thier isnt any romance and any example's of it like Huki and Macku in MNOLG Are ''Non-cannon'' which IMO was pointless to do I mean, why get rid of something that could add to character depth.

This is a common misconception; they did not "get rid" of anything, but rather romance in MU beings was never canon. An understandable case of miscommunication; they probably just naturally assumed romance was possible and went for it. That was just one of several noncanon things in the MNOG that happened because they failed to run it by the story team. And it really wouldn't be wise to accept this kind of thing; the point of having a story team is to keep things consistent, so if they wanted the game to be canon they should have run everything by the team. Really the problems in it are so minor the game wouldn't have lost anything by avoiding those little errors. But alas, it's over ten years into history now.They could have just accepted it anyways, but it really doesn't make much sense with the background secret of what these characters' origins are, so the story team decided to stick with that. I always saw that as a hint towards that secret, and it turned out to be true. ^_^And anyways, this is getting way off-topic, lol.

Note that the MNOLG is considered canon by most fans anyway. It isn't by Greg because the developers of MNOLG weren't affiliated with the story team. At this point, though, it does seem silly for him not to have counted it as canon, seeing as it's viewed as such by the BZPower fanbase, which he included so many fanon submissions from over the last few years.

What do you mean by "considered canon"? Most fans, at least on here, know it is only semi-canon. Some consider the noncanon parts true in their "head-canon" though if that's what you mean. :)But really, what good does it do to in retrospect call the story team silly for not accepting things that others did without consulting them? This decision too is well past ten years into history, and it is almost never a good idea to just toss out all of what was said for years to be the case, just to appease a few who can't find peace about it. When something is established in the canon it's best to simply stick with it usually.Those that really want romance in canon Bionicle got it with Agori, etc. anyways. I see this as something that was basically inevitable; given the "big secret" the story team had to keep to themselves, it makes sense there'd be no MU romance, plus the target age didn't want it anyways (now having a place for it fits better since original fans have aged), and it is understandable that the MNOG makers would assume it was possible, and it is understandable that some fans would like it once it was done, understandable the story team would not accept it, but understandable this would upset some fans.Really the solution here is to simply understand all of that and accept that it is the case, and isn't going to change, and move on. Yeah?And let's face it, just giving in to pressure and putting romance all throughout Bionicle would make it far more boring. It'd become just like every other generic story out there in that respect. I like how it is because it is different and it gives something to think and discuss about, rather than just going with the standard mold.BTW, if you want character depth, in that vein, something somebody might be interested to take up in canon-fit fanfics would be the question of what would happen if for example an Agori had romantic feelings for a Matoran, who could not feel them back? If you think about it, it could be deeper this way. Just bringing romance into it, while possible in fanfics, is the easy route. What would happen if you applied more imagination to the puzzle created by the canon as it is? Edited May 21, 2012 by bonesiii

[Cambion]

I really don't feel like quoting one of Bones' great Walls of Text, so. @Bones:1. I like that explanation better. But even though they are, in fact, people, and have free will, are their personalities pre-defined or random? There's that ambiguity again, heh. Anyway, I'm on board with the idea that they really are a sapient species. I've actually taken an interest to this kind of stuff recently, so this is an interesting concept to mess with.2. I meant that many fans consider the events of MNOLG to be a true part of the 2001 storyline.3. "Silly". Wrong choice of word there. "Strange" would have been a better fit. My point was, it would have made sense for them to make MNOLG canon. It's not really a problem that they didn't.4. I was not arguing for or against anything. I'd like to make that clear, since you seem to think that I was. I agree with you about romance in the official Bionicle canon being unnecessary. The reason for my post was to point out to Deltus how it could still be possible and that it is okay to use it in fanfics, like you said.5. You and I are basically trying to make the same point here, I think, so I'll cut the discussion now before things get too out of hand.

[bonesiii]

But even though they are, in fact, people, and have free will, are their personalities pre-defined or random? There's that ambiguity again, heh.

Well that's another thing I like being left unanswered. I have pretty complicated views about free will and random, which could be summed up as "both and" rather than "either or". But we're off-topic enough here so yeah.

3. "Silly". Wrong choice of word there. "Strange" would have been a better fit. My point was, it would have made sense for them to make MNOLG canon. It's not really a problem that they didn't.

Fair enough, but the issue, then, is more with "make sense". To me it makes sense there would be no romance in the MU. The desire for there to be is coming from fans who wish to import a fuller range of human emotions (or Agori, etc.) into these artificial beings. And also of course we didn't always know as much about what they were exactly, but the point I'm making is that the story team did know, all along. :)Could romance developing in artificial life-forms make sense? Sure, but there really was no driving desire among target fans for it to be, so IMO it's more interesting if they go the more original route. See what I'm saying? In other words, "strange" is basically a synonym of "original", at least if there's an audience for it. (Lol this makes me think of America's Got Talent auditions lolzzzz.) And in this case there clearly was an audience for it at the time. What I've observed is that as the original audience has aged, you see more "want romance in MU" posts, and the "don't want" posts slowly faded over time, just as you'd expect to see. :)Also, the real problem with just blanketly declaring MNOG canon is that in other, very trivial details, it contradicts other canon. This particular scene I don't think is a problem for the canon as-is. Think about it, the MNOG and online videos after it never directly stated "what you're seeing here is romance." It could be interpreted as very close friendship, which is canon. People seem to assume the scene is one of the things meant to be noncanon when the story team says that romance isn't canon, and the MNOG is noncanon wherever it contradicts canon, but as far as I know the actual scene itself was not called noncanon (I might be wrong; Greg certainly said a thousand and more things over time so maybe he did say that).

I was not arguing for or against anything. I'd like to make that clear, since you seem to think that I was. I agree with you about romance in the official Bionicle canon being unnecessary. The reason for my post was to point out to Deltus how it could still be possible and that it is okay to use it in fanfics, like you said.

Right on, then. Edited May 22, 2012 by bonesiii

[Cambion]

It contradicts the canon? In what other ways? I'm interested to know, because I thought all along that it didn't. XD Same with MNOLG 2, actually.Again, I'd like to state that I completely agree--incorporating romance into the canon would have been unnecessary and probably a bad idea. I understand Lego's focus on the "target audience" very well--I think we all do around here.When I said that it would make sense for them to have canonized MNOLG, I wasn't really talking about just the relationship in question here. I meant the general storyline of the game, which I like because I think it adds a bit more depth to what was, at the time, a rather one-dimensional story (if a deliberately one-dimensional one), as it focused more on the life of the Matoran and less on the adventures of the Toa, who were, of course, what the story was all about.

[bonesiii]

Everything in MNOG is already "canon unless it contradicts other canon"; that includes the vast majority of the story. The whole ending sequence especially is canon.One example of a contradiction is how they handled the Suvas and the Golden Masks. Very trivial, so no real harm in just those parts being noncanon.

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

I'd go with this opinion: they were made by the GBs at the very beginning of the MU and they could be "built" by Artakha. However, how do they get to life is something that will remain in Greg's mind. Much like the Holy Grail.