Toa Mangai of the Green's Kanohi Poll

[Boidoh]

I always thought it was the Turaga's mask, since you know, they used the same suva.

 

I'll say I'll close this here. Even if the MoRC was still an option, at the time it was losing to the MoH by about 5 votes at the time. And the Mask of Healing is only going to get more votes from here on out. There is no way any other option is going to win at this point.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Boidoh

[Tuuli]

You guys let Greg decide too much on what should already be in your head canons, and gen 1 is over so it's not really our place or Greg's place to be deciding what's canon (now?)

[bonesiii]

 

There was also a similar scene in one of the books (Voyage of Fear methinks) where Toa Onewa uses it on a Rahi, and if badmem serves, it only fails because that particular one was really dumb. But he expected it to work on Rahi.

Did he use it before on any Rahi, or was he just taking a guess that it could work?

 

Also, a wee bit off topic, but was it canon or not that the Toa collected Noble Masks? I've heard so many contradicting opinions on that subject.

 

BS01 doesn't say, that I could find, whether Onewa used it on other Rahi previously, and I forget. It could be checked by reading the 2004 books. But we don't need to know that to rule that mask out here. (Since Lewa did use it that way.) 

 

You guys let Greg decide too much on what should already be in your head canons, and gen 1 is over so it's not really our place or Greg's place to be deciding what's canon (now?)

This has nothing to do with headcanon. And yes, Greg decides what's canon.

[Dorek]

On the Turaga masks bit; they obviously acquired them at some point (if nothing else, they were in Kanohi mask packs!), and they came from the Metru Nui Suva cache, but I guess the how is never elaborated upon. It's possible the Turaga doled them out as necessary, but some of the 2005 books should elaborate on that; did it say which masks they hid, or did it just say "masks"?

I always thought it was the Turaga's mask, since you know, they used the same suva.

 

I'll say I'll close this here. Even if the MoRC was still an option, at the time it was losing to the MoH by about 5 votes at the time. And the Mask of Healing is only going to get more votes from here on out. There is no way any other option is going to win at this point.

That's a bit deterministic, no? People aren't voting for MoRC because they don't have all the facts OR the option; seems silly to just dismiss that because the one you like is winning.

 

You guys let Greg decide too much on what should already be in your head canons, and gen 1 is over so it's not really our place or Greg's place to be deciding what's canon (now?)

Ras, I think you've made your point that you don't like any more additions to the canon. And certainly, other people share that opinion as well, but it does ultimately come back down to him for a final decision, which he still has the authority to do. Provided he is making a fully informed and unbiased choice, he can still decide what becomes canon.

[Boidoh]

Throwing stones? The one I like isn't winning. As far as I know, the Mask of Conjuring only has votes from Bonesiii and I.

 

If we were to close the poll at when the MoRC was still an option, the MoH was still winning. 

[Irrie]

Throwing stones? The one I like isn't winning. As far as I know, the Mask of Conjuring only has votes from Bonesiii and I.

 

If we were to close the poll at when the MoRC was still an option, the MoH was still winning. 

I think that we need to just ask Greg:

"What kanohi can the Toa Mangai of The Green not have?" 

And if he replies with the ones not allowed, create a new poll topic from there. 

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

 

Throwing stones? The one I like isn't winning. As far as I know, the Mask of Conjuring only has votes from Bonesiii and I.

 

If we were to close the poll at when the MoRC was still an option, the MoH was still winning. 

I think that we need to just ask Greg:

"What kanohi can the Toa Mangai of The Green not have?" 

And if he replies with the ones not allowed, create a new poll topic from there. 

 

well there will still be a huge chance that the Mask of Healing would be in the list and a huge chance of that mask winning.

[Irrie]

 

 

Throwing stones? The one I like isn't winning. As far as I know, the Mask of Conjuring only has votes from Bonesiii and I.

 

If we were to close the poll at when the MoRC was still an option, the MoH was still winning.

I think that we need to just ask Greg:

"What kanohi can the Toa Mangai of The Green not have?" 

And if he replies with the ones not allowed, create a new poll topic from there.

 

well there will still be a huge chance that the Mask of Healing would be in the list and a huge chance of that mask winning.

 

True, but we're going to need evidence. 

 

COLD. HARD. FACTS.

 

Know what I'm sayin'?

[Boidoh]

Greg probably doesn't have the time to go through every single mask, and every single possible situation.

[Irrie]

Greg probably doesn't have the time to go through every single mask, and every single possible situation.

Doesn't hurt to ask, right? 

How about, instead of asking him to go through all of them, ask him if he has any objections to any more Kanohi, other than the ones he already ruled out. 

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

True, but we're going to need evidence. 

 

COLD. HARD. FACTS.

 

Know what I'm sayin'?

I wasn't saying that it will be in the poll no doubt, I said there is a chance it would be part of the poll still and...   well it maybe obvious that it will still be where it was, if you think of it logically.

 

 

 

Greg probably doesn't have the time to go through every single mask, and every single possible situation.

Doesn't hurt to ask, right? 

How about, instead of asking him to go through all of them, ask him if he has any objections to any more Kanohi, other than the ones he already ruled out. 

 

Well are you or anyone going to do that, or do I have to just do everything for you all

[Spiderus Prime]

I voting The Rode,because it's awesome.

[Dorek]

Throwing stones? The one I like isn't winning. As far as I know, the Mask of Conjuring only has votes from Bonesiii and I.

 

If we were to close the poll at when the MoRC was still an option, the MoH was still winning.

Well, you had mentioned earlier that you wanted to switch your vote; since you seem to be counting hands in the air as opposed to the actual data entries, I figured you still wanted it as a pick. If not, my mistake.

 

 

Greg probably doesn't have the time to go through every single mask, and every single possible situation.

Doesn't hurt to ask, right? 

How about, instead of asking him to go through all of them, ask him if he has any objections to any more Kanohi, other than the ones he already ruled out.

 

Well, the issue is making sure he has all the facts when making those decisions; if Greg ruled out the Pehuki because "nobody with a Pehuki has ever been in combat", that would be an erroneous decision, because people with Pehuki's HAVE been in combat (at least once, Norik in Comic 25 =P). He's counting on us to make sure we have all these ducks in a row BEFORE it gets brought to him, otherwise it's not being fair (to him or to the fanbase).

 

My whole issue is that he dismissed the Rahi Control mask without (as far as I can tell) remembering that there was a very similar scenario with a Rahi Control user against the Kanohi Dragon where it apparently didn't help, so that shouldn't invalidate it as an option.

[Sumiki]

No mask.
 
The canonizations have far since passed the point of utter ridiculousness. Why must there be such focus on filling inconsequential gaps in the first generation when we're on the cusp of G2?

[Archon~]

Cuz the first generation is still an awesome story and is left unfinished and that personally irks me. Any tidbits of info we get are gold to me.

 

I don't care about Gen2 that much but I'm not lashing that out on all the topics dedicated to it, so yeah.

 

If people don't like new info to Gen1, that's fine, no need to be so vocal about it. Not like your voice will change anything.

[bonesiii]

I don't think we need to restart the poll. I'm now convinced Greg's reasoning to dismiss the MoRC is reasonable enough (especially since it would also apply to Mind Control presumably, and I don't think that can be seen as rare... so I guess we have to resort to bad luck to explain why they didn't get a Toa in the team with either of those -- although somebody should mention this to Greg to make sure he realizes there should also be a rule against anybody in the Toa Mangai having a Komau too ).

 

Sumiki, as far as I know it's a matter of preference, like Dorek said to Ras. But if you're not interested in new canon details for Gen1, you can just ignore them, rather than banning them from those who do have the tastes to be interested.

 

And Gen2 is not mutually exclusive with Gen1 getting some new expansion. I don't see why we can't do both.

[Dorek]

I still think this poll needs a redo, but since we're just charging ahead regardless, clearly we don't have the luxury for such things as fact-checking.

 

I hold out hope that whatever comes next (I'm sure there will be more...) is more organized.

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

I really hope the great Hapori Tohu, will update this place to put the G1 Bionicle and the G2 Bionicle separated...   anyways.

 

My whole issue is that he dismissed the Rahi Control mask without (as far as I can tell) remembering that there was a very similar scenario with a Rahi Control user against the Kanohi Dragon where it apparently didn't help, so that shouldn't invalidate it as an option.

I don't remember the Mask being use against the Kanohi Dragon, it maybe something I forgotten, could you tell me where this had happen.

(I am looking for this info still but yet to find none)

 

Or have you made this up, think that we are just going to automatically take that as fact, like a little kids. If you want to bring that up (witch you should of had long again if ti's true) then you should being up where this information is from.

Edited December 4, 2014 by ShadowWolfHount

[Sumiki]

Cuz the first generation is still an awesome story and is left unfinished and that personally irks me. Any tidbits of info we get are gold to me.

 

I don't care about Gen2 that much but I'm not lashing that out on all the topics dedicated to it, so yeah.

 

If people don't like new info to Gen1, that's fine, no need to be so vocal about it. Not like your voice will change anything.

Sumiki, as far as I know it's a matter of preference, like Dorek said to Ras. But if you're not interested in new canon details for Gen1, you can just ignore them, rather than banning them from those who do have the tastes to be interested.

 

The problem about the über-canonization is that it is an endemic one. At best, it doesn't add depth to the story and at worst (GB Velika, Red Star, etc.) have only made things worse in the minds of many fans by destroying the few semblances of mystery that have made 2001 nostalgic and 2015 promising. I'm not the only one to think this; as best, those in favor and those opposed to extensive canonization are 50-50.

 

​Does this particular canonization impact anything? I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't. But in as far as the story being unfinished is concerned, I'm more curious about the dangling plot threads generated by 2010's rushed ending than stuff that doesn't actually impact anything major.

 

I'd actually welcome a proper ending to G1, but all the same, I wouldn't consider that a canonization as much as a continuation. I'd probably be at least a little unhappy with Greg's writing—it went downhill after Time Trap IMO—but there'd at least be closure to the story.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Sumiki

[Archon~]

But see the post2010 plot isn't being meased with anymore simply cuz Greg "forgot", even though i think thats bs. Now, we are just getting miniscule details, to fulfill the plot's loose ends that we can wrap up, like who the last Toa Mangai is. Is it important? God no. Is it interesting and offer insight into a past event in Bionicle? I'd say yes.

 

Basically all the minor stuff that's canonized offers the fans something to hang on to and all the theorists of Gen1 to keep doing what they do best. Honestly I'd much rather prefer the continuation of post 2010, it was honeslty beginning to sound epic, and Takanuva's role in the GB civil war would be just... *fangirl scream moment*. But anyway, the point is: just how there are many mysteries left with Greg starting the 2011 story, there are also mysteries of the past that should be wrapped up IF possible. In the case of the Ba Toa and Toa Cordak this makes perfect sense. Honestly, if we could select masks and weapons for other old Toa that would just be swell.

Do you kind of understand the benefit of these canonizations now?

[Boidoh]

I still think this poll needs a redo, but since we're just charging ahead regardless, clearly we don't have the luxury for such things as fact-checking.

 

I hold out hope that whatever comes next (I'm sure there will be more...) is more organized.

 

I can guarantee you that the next one will be more organized, if Greg agrees with having a vote about his weapons. Since I'd need a list of them first and what-not, then after suggestions have been made a poll will be made and any stuff to ask Greg will be done from beforehand.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I really hope the great Hapori Tohu, will update this place to put the G1 Bionicle and the G2 Bionicle separated...   anyways.

 

My whole issue is that he dismissed the Rahi Control mask without (as far as I can tell) remembering that there was a very similar scenario with a Rahi Control user against the Kanohi Dragon where it apparently didn't help, so that shouldn't invalidate it as an option.

I don't remember the Mask being use against the Kanohi Dragon, it maybe something I forgotten, could you tell me where this had happen.

(I am looking for this info still but yet to find none)

 

Or have you made this up, think that we are just going to automatically take that as fact, like a little kids. If you want to bring that up (witch you should of had long again if ti's true) then you should being up where this information is from.

I believe he is talking about the first chapter of the Dwellers in Darkness serial. In it, Kualus wore the Mask of Rahi Control. But its not stated that he tried to use it on the Kanohi Dragon or Tahtorak. (In fact, its not mentioned that he was wearing this mask until Chapter three of that serial.) Here is the link to the first chapter of said serial:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Dwellers_In_Darkness#Chapter_1

Edited December 4, 2014 by Toa Smoke Monster

[SarracenianKaijin]

But see the post2010 plot isn't being meased with anymore simply cuz Greg "forgot", even though i think thats bs. Now, we are just getting miniscule details, to fulfill the plot's loose ends that we can wrap up, like who the last Toa Mangai is. Is it important? God no. Is it interesting and offer insight into a past event in Bionicle? I'd say yes.

 

Basically all the minor stuff that's canonized offers the fans something to hang on to and all the theorists of Gen1 to keep doing what they do best. Honestly I'd much rather prefer the continuation of post 2010, it was honeslty beginning to sound epic, and Takanuva's role in the GB civil war would be just... *fangirl scream moment*. But anyway, the point is: just how there are many mysteries left with Greg starting the 2011 story, there are also mysteries of the past that should be wrapped up IF possible. In the case of the Ba Toa and Toa Cordak this makes perfect sense. Honestly, if we could select masks and weapons for other old Toa that would just be swell.

Do you kind of understand the benefit of these canonizations now?

 

Fiction isn't about fundamentalism.

 

Stop talking about writing stories and "loose-ends and mysteries" as if its logbook on people's taxes. What Kanohi a character speciifically wears is not interesting, nor has the story ever offered much in terms of why it should be considered interesting. It does not offer any insight of his character any more than the exact number of popped zits on my face when I was a teenager.

 

This isn't revealng mysteries. Its being nosy and gossiping about fictional characters.

[Iku]

 

But see the post2010 plot isn't being meased with anymore simply cuz Greg "forgot", even though i think thats bs. Now, we are just getting miniscule details, to fulfill the plot's loose ends that we can wrap up, like who the last Toa Mangai is. Is it important? God no. Is it interesting and offer insight into a past event in Bionicle? I'd say yes.

 

Basically all the minor stuff that's canonized offers the fans something to hang on to and all the theorists of Gen1 to keep doing what they do best. Honestly I'd much rather prefer the continuation of post 2010, it was honeslty beginning to sound epic, and Takanuva's role in the GB civil war would be just... *fangirl scream moment*. But anyway, the point is: just how there are many mysteries left with Greg starting the 2011 story, there are also mysteries of the past that should be wrapped up IF possible. In the case of the Ba Toa and Toa Cordak this makes perfect sense. Honestly, if we could select masks and weapons for other old Toa that would just be swell.

Do you kind of understand the benefit of these canonizations now?

 

Fiction isn't about fundamentalism.

 

Stop talking about writing stories and "loose-ends and mysteries" as if its logbook on people's taxes. What Kanohi a character speciifically wears is not interesting, nor has the story ever offered much in terms of why it should be considered interesting. It does not offer any insight of his character any more than the exact number of popped zits on my face when I was a teenager.

 

This isn't revealng mysteries. Its being nosy and gossiping about fictional characters.

 

 

 

I think the point you're trying to make (sans ad hominem hostility) is that the Toa of the Green is deceased. Properly deceased - killed by Eliminator such that he cannot be revived on the Red Star (Eliminator's energy blasts fried their neural circuitry, preventing their consciousness's from being revived on the Red Star).

 

As such, deciding these details is inherently pointless and doesn't really add enough to the narrative to warrant a poll, or even bother Greg about this. 

 

I would much rather ask for story details about his (as yet unfinished) continuation of the 2010 story. If we could at least find out the major plot points of the future story (e.g. how Kopaka and Pohatu will get off the Red Star/save its current prisoners), we can find some closure in Gen1. 

[Dorek]

I believe he is talking about the first chapter of the Dwellers in Darkness serial. In it, Kualus wore the Mask of Rahi Control. But its not stated that he tried to use it on the Kanohi Dragon or Tahtorak. (In fact, its not mentioned that he was wearing this mask until Chapter three of that serial.) Here is the link to the first chapter of said serial:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Dwellers_In_Darkness#Chapter_1

Precisely; the fact that he DOESN'T use it on the Kanohi Dragon (or the Tahtorak, for that matter) is more telling. His useful capacity is as a Toa of Ice, which it's established are the most effective against the Dragon, rather than as the owner of a Mask of Rahi Control, which suggests that the mask is in some way ineffective in that battle. There could be other reasons for that (such as Greg not having decided on that mask right then and there for Kualus), but since this is all retroactive canonization anyway, I can't fathom why the scenario isn't even being considered, yet alone being used to make a decent case for Rahi Control.

 

I would much rather ask for story details about his (as yet unfinished) continuation of the 2010 story. If we could at least find out the major plot points of the future story (e.g. how Kopaka and Pohatu will get off the Red Star/save its current prisoners), we can find some closure in Gen1.

Basically, people would rather get small tidbits than nothing at all. As unfortunate as it is, the "story" portion of Gen 1 is over. The serials are unfinished, and even if we get small tidbits on what could have happened (which is less-than-likely, since Greg typically did not plan too many things out in advance), it's hard to consider them "canon" because they didn't actually occur in the story; while the idea of Takanuva as a peace broker in a GB war sounds neat, there's no telling how that would have actually been written, or if the story would have certain other demands for him not covered by that "destiny", so it's tough to consider that as Takanuva's actual destiny.

 

Bits on concluded story are a lot easier to receive, since it's easier to suss out the details and make sure that we maintain a certain level of accuracy with pre-established facts (which it's our job, as fans, to keep track of!).

 

That said, since Greg seems to be taking a fair amount of his time out to reply to fan questions, I'd love to see him try and give that up for a week or two in exchange for writing a new chapter, but I'll say that's wishful thinking at this point =P.

[bonesiii]

The problem about the über-canonization is that it is an endemic one. At best, it doesn't add depth to the story and at worst... have only made things worse in the minds of many fans

I actually think this is on the right track for some instances, like Toa Cordak. I don't get that one. But come on -- it's a mask, and an important Toa team. I don't think that applies here.

 

Then again, it's your vote and you vote on your tastes, so "no mask" is certainly a valid way to vote.

 

Most of the rest of what you said (well, other than wishing the serials would be finished -- but we need to face that this isn't happening, for good reasons, and this is common knowledge already), I don't think works.

 

Masks on a Toa team's faces, for example... is that really a 'mystery'?? But that goes back to an age-old debate about leaving some characters undefined, which I agree with, within reason, just don't think mystery is the right word, but that might be semantics. Although Archon's post calls it a mystery, but I see that as in a different sense of the word, just that people want this team to be more defined, not "sense of mystery". I dunno.

 

[Edit: And having followed discussions for years about which characters are widely agreed to be on the "off-limits list", I don't recall the Toa Mangai being one of them. Usually it's Helryx, for example. It seems like fans generally want the Toa Mangai to be filled out in basics. Plus, although I'm not happy about this, the Helryx thing is usually for appearance, and if Healing wins, there's still no appearance. ]

 

What Kanohi a character speciifically wears is not interesting

I do think these kinds of things should probably have a polling stage to ask just that, actually. IS it interesting to a noticeable number of people? Claiming yes/no doesn't answer it. Let's test it! But then again, Greg gets these questions, and he knows what he's asked over and over, and I've seen this subject a lot. So at the very least we do know it is interesting to a lot.

 

And another issue with that is, if it doesn't interest some, like I said, so what? They can just ignore it. There's lots of things in the entertainment world that don't interest me because of my tastes, but I let the exist to please the people they are for.

 

It does not offer any insight of his character

Doesn't track -- what mask you choose (if you choose it) says a lot about your personality. And if it's just sort of granted to him, it's still something the character has to learn how to handle. Although admittedly I think people are picking Healing for more of a generic reason. One of the reasons I picked Conjuring was that the idea that came up in previous topics about a book of proven 'spells' for it could be neat, and having a character who has that implies they're out of the box but also reasonably cautious, like a mix of bookworm and practical.

 

(Also 'cuz I'm biased lol. But only a little. )

 

I think the point you're trying to make (sans ad hominem hostility) is that the Toa of the Green is deceased. Properly deceased - killed by Eliminator such that he cannot be revived on the Red Star (Eliminator's energy blasts fried their neural circuitry, preventing their consciousness's from being revived on the Red Star).

 

As such, deciding these details is inherently pointless and doesn't really add enough to the narrative to warrant a poll

Also doesn't track. Characters aren't ONLY interesting/relevant/etc. if they happen to be still alive at "story present" -- that's about as purely arbitrary as you can get...

Edited December 4, 2014 by bonesiii

[Archon~]

 

 

But see the post2010 plot isn't being meased with anymore simply cuz Greg "forgot", even though i think thats bs. Now, we are just getting miniscule details, to fulfill the plot's loose ends that we can wrap up, like who the last Toa Mangai is. Is it important? God no. Is it interesting and offer insight into a past event in Bionicle? I'd say yes.

 

Basically all the minor stuff that's canonized offers the fans something to hang on to and all the theorists of Gen1 to keep doing what they do best. Honestly I'd much rather prefer the continuation of post 2010, it was honeslty beginning to sound epic, and Takanuva's role in the GB civil war would be just... *fangirl scream moment*. But anyway, the point is: just how there are many mysteries left with Greg starting the 2011 story, there are also mysteries of the past that should be wrapped up IF possible. In the case of the Ba Toa and Toa Cordak this makes perfect sense. Honestly, if we could select masks and weapons for other old Toa that would just be swell.

Do you kind of understand the benefit of these canonizations now?

Fiction isn't about fundamentalism.

 

Stop talking about writing stories and "loose-ends and mysteries" as if its logbook on people's taxes. What Kanohi a character speciifically wears is not interesting, nor has the story ever offered much in terms of why it should be considered interesting. It does not offer any insight of his character any more than the exact number of popped zits on my face when I was a teenager.

 

This isn't revealng mysteries. Its being nosy and gossiping about fictional characters.

What the heck are you talking abour? Logbooks? Popping zits? Sounds like you still are a teenager.

 

And what is your problem if some people get to know something relatively irrelevant about G1? Just cuz something isn't interesting to you, it might be to ofher people. By knowing what this Toa's powers and Kanohi were we get a better picture of who this team is composed of and maybe how they worked together.

 

And honestly, if you think new details are annoying or whatever, and if you don't really care about them I suggest you ignore a topic where something you dislike is already set in motion and is approved by the guy who wrote the story. Got a complaint? Take it up with that man. Oh wait, people already did, and he offeres solid reasoning why he's cool with canonizing past minor details, I suggest you look it up.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I might be posting this a little late, but I think it's important for those haven't voted in this poll yet. In case anyone doesn't know, The Mask of Healing won in this poll. The link to confirm this is below.

 

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/11776782/highlight/true#M260113

[Dorek]

Oh I know... trust me =P.

 

I'm still not satisfied with the way this went down, but as mentioned in the other topics, options for recourse are slim-to-none, so I'll have to suck it up over a poorly made poll and hope the next one(s) are better (even though it's looking like they're not).

[Boidoh]

It seems your problem with this one is that your vote was invalidated because I removed the MoRC option. The next one has it, but now your problem with the poll is that it treats characters like a checkmark on a box. I don't get it.

[Dorek]

My issue is that by not interfacing with the community beforehand, a lot of avoidable mistakes crop up. It's never one specific thing, which is what I think you keep trying to angle it as; it's hard to pin things down in such black in white terms.

 

In this case, a poll should never have an option removed mid-voting and then continue on as if nothing happened, especially if people (not just myself, but yes, myself) have their votes completely invalidated as a result. Not only is that unfair to the voters (who are fans with an equal say), but it can drastically change the outcome of the poll, which runs counter to the idea of trying to get a community voice. Maybe Healing would have won anyway, and I'm not saying it shouldn't have, but because things weren't given a fair shake, we can't know for sure.

 

In terms of the next one, lumping them all into a single poll, while more efficient, creates a host of logistical problems, which again runs counter to the idea that we're trying to collectively build a story. You're treating it all as data, and if that is the case, data at least has a set of standards which are not being adhered to.

[Boidoh]

Well, they are all Toa of Ice. It's not like I had it a vote for every other Toa Mangai's mask in one poll. I didn't say, "1st place goes to Naho, 2nd to the Toa of Earth, 3rd to the Toa of Stone, 4th, 5th, and 6th place mask goes to the Toas of Ice." 

 

Well why is it that now people want to treat these like "characters". I forgot who it was, but I'm sure that person kept repeating about how they are like cardboard cutouts with a mask or something like that. I thought a lot of people on the anti-canonization side thought that they were irelevant characters that are a waste of Greg's time, or something like that.

 

EDIT: That second part was supposed to go on another topic. This entire discussion is spread throughout 3 or 4 topics.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Boidoh

[dotcom]

Well, they are all Toa of Ice. It's not like I had it a vote for every other Toa Mangai's mask in one poll. I didn't say, "1st place goes to Naho, 2nd to the Toa of Earth, 3rd to the Toa of Stone, 4th, 5th, and 6th place mask goes to the Toas of Ice." 

 

Well why is it that now people want to treat these like "characters". I forgot who it was, but I'm sure that person kept repeating about how they are like cardboard cutouts with a mask or something like that. I thought a lot of people on the anti-canonization side thought that they were irelevant characters that are a waste of Greg's time, or something like that.

 

EDIT: That second part was supposed to go on another topic. This entire discussion is spread throughout 3 or 4 topics.

But doesn't that run contrary to your point, though? Other people have been arguing that they're not characters, but you have said that you do consider them characters and a such deserve more information. Doing things like grouping all 4 Toa of Ice in the same topic is not consistent with treating them all like characters. People opposed to this think that they're irrelevant, and if you go ahead and treat them as if they are irrelevant, that doesn't solve that conflict. It just muddles your point and confuses things. Stick to your guns. Treat them as characters and give them proper focus, or don't. To the people that argue that this is only like gathering senseless data, it only seems to prove their point, and to those that like the canonization, lumping them together simply isn't that great an idea. You can't please both camps, but try to stay consistent.

[bonesiii]

Doing things like grouping all 4 Toa of Ice in the same topic is not consistent with treating them all like characters.

Folks, please think before you try a criticism. We know literally nothing unique about these four Ko-Toa to distinguish them from one another! If we see establishing their character traits as important, we have to start somewhere with distinguishing them. Masks seem like as good a way as any, as they often say something important about the Toa who picked that power (usually). Having four separate polls asking the same thing makes no sense, because we can't be asking "which mask do you want the Ko-Toa who is said to sneeze a lot to have?" or something. We have NO identifying information about them yet. So four polls would accomplish the same thing as one poll, but do it far less efficiently and confusingly.

 

Maybe in the future Greg will authorize polls asking for people's preferences of the personality traits of the Toa wearing this mask, versus that mask. But we're not there yet.

[dotcom]

 

Doing things like grouping all 4 Toa of Ice in the same topic is not consistent with treating them all like characters.

Folks, please think before you try a criticism. We know literally nothing unique about these four Ko-Toa to distinguish them from one another! If we see establishing their character traits as important, we have to start somewhere with distinguishing them. Masks seem like as good a way as any, as they often say something important about the Toa who picked that power (usually). Having four separate polls asking the same thing makes no sense, because we can't be asking "which mask do you want the Ko-Toa who is said to sneeze a lot to have?" or something. We have NO identifying information about them yet. So four polls would accomplish the same thing as one poll, but do it far less efficiently and confusingly.

 

Maybe in the future Greg will authorize polls asking for people's preferences of the personality traits of the Toa wearing this mask, versus that mask. But we're not there yet.

 

I don't really like the implication that I don't think before I try to comment on stuff but ok.

 

But it's not really that simple. Lumping the 4 Toa of Ice in a single poll causes or opens up the possibility for a few problems (rules out the idea (however unlikely it may be) of Toa having repeated masks within the group, perhaps opens up the possibility for an inaccurate count or mistakes in voting since you're allowed to vote for multiple options) and in general I don't think it's that elegant a solution. I think it'd be more interesting if each Toa had their masks determined one at a time, because then we'd be able to consider what masks we want the Toa to have based not only on their element and the particular situation of the Kanohi Dragon, but also what those masks would bring to the team as a whole. Knowing what other masks already are present in the team certainly could change what masks people choose for the rest of the Toa. Perhaps that's not something that we usually really take into account, and it's certainly not something we can take into account the way it is now, because we're just choosing 4 masks blindly. I guess what I'm clumsily struggling to get across is that the way things are being done does limit in some ways how we're allowed to think of the Toa and the entire mask situation.

 

Though honestly, primarily my post was meant to explain to Boidoh why his reasoning regarding the supposed insignificance of the Toa was faulty. I really don't have much stake or interest in this entire debate, I was simply trying to offer a bit of explanation in that post.

[bonesiii]

I don't really like the implication that I don't think before I try to comment on stuff but ok.

This shouldn't be your reaction, if it is understandable. We can all fail to think things through. Frankly, part of the reason I phrased it that way is I suspected you might be attaching some personal pride to the idea that it's not feasible that this normal human failing might have applied to you. And notice that if you are right, you must be implying that somebody else failed to think their position through. That goes both ways.

 

But it's not really that simple. Lumping the 4 Toa of Ice in a single poll causes or opens up the possibility for a few problems (rules out the idea (however unlikely it may be) of Toa having repeated masks within the group

I already dealt with that in the topic itself. (Incidentally, can we move this discussion into that topic since that's what this is about? If you feel the need to continue it. This one is about the Bo-Toa, not the Ko-Toa.) Might as well quote it here though for those that don't wanna dig it up:

 

I don't see this as likely enough to worry about just yet. Having each member of a Toa team have a different mask, especially since there's already multiple members with the same element, is a strong enough rule in an out-universe sense that I think the rare statistical chance of such a repeat may be justifiably ignored and Greg almost certainly would agree (he'd just say it much more briefly like "Two Toa of Ice with the same mask would be too confusing" or the like).

 

But if people really want to try for it, for some weird reason, Greg can be asked, and a popular result from this poll could just be doubled.

 

And it seems to me you're forgetting that four identical polls creates this problem in reverse, and then its likelihood of being a problem goes way up (in light of the above). People are highly unlikely to want two or more Toa of Ice in the same team to have the same face, yet your way would make it possible for them to forget that they'd already voted for a top choice in one poll and vote the same way in another. And since there's no identifying information at all, trying to figure out which poll to put which vote in would be utter chaos.

 

If there's just one mask you want one of them to have and you don't care about the other three, you might feel obligated to vote that in all the polls just so it doesn't get missed, and those results could be misinterpreted as wanting all four to have it. In practice, the next highest vote in all three polls would still be selected, and all you've done is make Boidoh have to work harder to get the same result.

 

So, having four polls doesn't help clear up whether people want repeat masks anyways!

 

But if yall -really- want multiple Toa of Ice in the same team to have the same mask, open up a poll about it!

 

perhaps opens up the possibility for an inaccurate count or mistakes in voting since you're allowed to vote for multiple options)

Not following you with "inaccurate count'. Mistakes in voting is always a risk in any poll, but is also unlikely. And don't see what the multi-option thing has to do with the likelihood of mistakes. Perhaps you could elaborate. But this is all solved by simply paying attention to what you're doing and double-checking before clicking the vote button. (And how would having it be four separate polls help?)

 

and in general I don't think it's that elegant a solution.

Killing four birds with one stone would seem to be the "elegant" option compared to four polls asking the same exact thing.

 

I think it'd be more interesting if each Toa had their masks determined one at a time

That's not a bad idea. It would solve some of the mess problem of the above. I think it's a tossup between the two, though. You can still determine each of your votes one at a time, and indeed have to.

 

(And how would that work? If X mask wins in the first, is it removed from the second? This doesn't solve the alleged issue for the hypothetical supporters of clonism in the Toa Mangai. If not, it's still possible to create the risk of accidentally voting for clonism; presumably the previous result would be announced in the post, but people don't always scroll down. I suppose the chosen option could be marked as such in the poll... but it would still be weird.)

 

because then we'd be able to consider what masks we want the Toa to have based not only on their element and the particular situation of the Kanohi Dragon, but also what those masks would bring to the team as a whole.

That's fair. Still don't think it's enough to take down the results already given, though. Had Boidoh happened to do it that way, it would work, but this still seems less confusing.

 

But maybe discussion needs to continue on this one (in the Ice Toa topic, please). There is a possibility that four top options there could create some sort of conflict. Not sure offhand what that could be, though -- I'm just playing Four-poll-ist's Advocate here. If you want to continue this, we could look at the currently winning options and analyze if there is such a conflict.

[ALVIS]

 

I don't really like the implication that I don't think before I try to comment on stuff but ok.

This shouldn't be your reaction, if it is understandable. We can all fail to think things through. Frankly, part of the reason I phrased it that way is I suspected you might be attaching some personal pride to the idea that it's not feasible that this normal human failing might have applied to you. And notice that if you are right, you must be implying that somebody else failed to think their position through. That goes both ways.

 

 

Okay, I'm sorry, bonesiii, but this is really condescending. I presume you think you're trying to be polite, but you're not succeeding. You're attempting to debunk his argument by implying that he wasn't thinking sensibly when he said it, which is incredibly insulting to his self-control. Please, even if someone disagrees with you, at least give them enough respect to assume that they meant what they said. It is fully possible for two people to think things through and still come to different conclusions.

[bonesiii]

Well, Yalda, it isn't meant to be condescending. If some take it that way, that's unfortunate, but I've experimented with many ways to say this sort of thing, and when it legitimately appears somebody has missed something they could have spotted by thinking it through before posting, there seems to be no real way to say that without the sense that this was somewhat of a failing coming through, but in general the ways I phrase things are based on experience on what works best overall, although of course it's always a learning process. Constructive criticism can include (basically has to) some informing of a failing. And I bring it up especially because failing to do that can lead to flamewars (indirectly, but it is often a factor as people end up talking past each other).

 

And if it's condescending to him, that must work the other way, since I pointed out that if I was wrong, I would be the one thinking less, so was I condescending to myself? The point is that it works both ways.

 

I'm sure there could probably have been a better way to say it, though. But honestly, it's what I felt needed said in that situation.

[ALVIS]

I'm sure there could probably have been a better way to say it, though.

 

And if you agree with me on that point, that's all that matters.

[Voltex]

I voted no on all three options. I'm starting to dislike the excessive canonizing that's going on; I really do wish that Gen. 1 could just be properly left alone.