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How long was Lhikan alone?


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#1 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 11:12 AM

I have a simple question that has really been bothering me: How long was Toa Lhikan the sole protector of Metru Nui between his teammates dying and the Toa Metru being created? It appears to be quite a long time since by the time the Toa Metru come into being, no one speaks about the other Toa Mangai and only Lhikan's statues are present everywhere. Yet, if it was a very long time, why would Makuta allow this one Toa to remain in the city for so long? I looked on BS01, but there was no specification to the time Lhikan was alone.


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#2 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 11:46 AM

Well I don't know how long exactly, but Makuta's plan to kill all Mangai went very slowely, over the course of hundreds of tears he kills the Toa Magai one by one. The raison Lhikan survived till the last: He is incredibly tough ik fight, one of the most skilled Toa to have ever lived, it toon some time to actually capture him.
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#3 Online ChroXumo

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 12:10 PM

It could be that the city doesn't seem to remember or speak of the other Mangai because of Teridax's influence on them all. Just an idea. ;)


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#4 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 12:25 PM

I used to think that the first Toa Mangai were captured very quickly... but I guess I had a wrong approach to that, then. The slow disappearances make a lot of sense. Still doesn't explain why only Lhikan is spoken about, though. I don't know about Makuta's influence... or course as Turaga Dume, he had a lot of control and authority over the Matoran. Maybe that explains something.


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#5 Offline Kaanfight

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 12:25 PM

no, they knew about them, they didn't speak about them because they were all dead or worse.


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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 02:27 PM

BS01 says the death of the team was 1001 years "ago" before story present. The thousand is the Dark Time, so apparently just one year at most, quite possibly much less.

 

As for the statues, that doesn't mean anything. The movie producers etc. had no images of the others to work from, so could only show us Lhikan statues. Plus, he was team leader. As for talking about them, the short time is exactly what makes it work -- people usually don't notice someone is missing until they're gone unusually long. In a universe where most of them have been alive 100,000 years, missions might take years or even decades without seeming strange, so they probably just assumed the others were busy somewhere.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 29 2013 - 06:32 PM.

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#7 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 02:37 PM

"1001 years ago" because that was when Lhikan died. But there's no mention of the others. You got this from the Toa Mangai page, right?


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#8 Offline The Phantom Terror

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 02:54 PM

Also, it was part of Makuta's plan to allow him to live for a while so that he could pass on the Toa stones to the Toa Metru, so that they can become Turaga, and so on and so forth. So, in a nutshell, Makuta had everything planned, his losses, deaths of his enemies, etc. Also, Lhikan was revived :D!


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#9 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 03:24 PM

Also, it was part of Makuta's plan to allow him to live for a while so that he could pass on the Toa stones to the Toa Metru, so that they can become Turaga, and so on and so forth. So, in a nutshell, Makuta had everything planned, his losses, deaths of his enemies, etc. Also, Lhikan was revived :D!

Also, it was part of Makuta's plan to allow him to live for a while so that he could pass on the Toa stones to the Toa Metru, so that they can become Turaga, and so on and so forth. So, in a nutshell, Makuta had everything planned, his losses, deaths of his enemies, etc. Also, Lhikan was revived :D!

Huh no, the Toa stones were not part of Makuta's plan, that was the very flaw in it which actually resulted in his ultime defeat.

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#10 Offline The Phantom Terror

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 03:27 PM

How so? Because if he didn't have the Toa Metru created, they couldn't have aided the Toa Mata in their quest, Takanuva would probably never exist, and Jaller would be running around without a mask.


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#11 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 03:36 PM

Also, it was part of Makuta's plan to allow him to live for a while so that he could pass on the Toa stones to the Toa Metru, so that they can become Turaga, and so on and so forth. So, in a nutshell, Makuta had everything planned, his losses, deaths of his enemies, etc. Also, Lhikan was revived :D!

>Also, it was part of Makuta's plan to allow him to live for a while so that he could pass on the Toa stones to the Toa Metru, so that they can become Turaga, and so on and so forth. So, in a nutshell, Makuta had everything planned, his losses, deaths of his enemies, etc. Also, Lhikan was revived :D!

Huh no, the Toa stones were not part of Makuta's plan, that was the very flaw in it which actually resulted in his ultime defeat.

 

Lhikan creating a new time of Toa was apart of Makuta's plan.  It was just that Mata Nui got in the way and had Lhikan, through a deceived Makuta, choose the correct Matoran to become the Toa who would save Metru Nui.  Makuta wanted the Toa to fail so he could rule the universe.


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#12 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 03:37 PM

How so? Because if he didn't have the Toa Metru created, they couldn't have aided the Toa Mata in their quest, Takanuva would probably never exist, and Jaller would be running around without a mask.

Yes I'm sure, he had a full plan for later tought out but we never learned what it was.

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#13 Offline The Phantom Terror

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 03:45 PM

So, in other words, can we agree that he DID have a plan, but made some minor edits along the way?


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#14 Offline Katuko

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 04:04 PM

How so? Because if he didn't have the Toa Metru created, they couldn't have aided the Toa Mata in their quest, Takanuva would probably never exist, and Jaller would be running around without a mask.

Without the Toa Metru (and later Turaga) to interfere, Makuta might very well just have shapeshifted into a Turaga again and misled the Toa Mata. He was well on his way to enact the plan of mind-wiping Metru Nui's Matoran so they would follow him instead of anyone else. Takanuva was a dangerous foe, and one which he tried to stop from coming into being at all. Even if he planned to fake his loss anyways, it's a lot easier to fake against someone who isn't actually a direct threat. Jaller is small fry and would be meaningless to Makuta, at least at the time of the Great Cataclysm.I believe it was said that Makuta wanted to Toa-ify the Matoran who became the Toa Metru precisely because he had been led to believe they were not the destined heroes, and thus they would be easier to manipulate/kill if he had to. Were this not the kind of story it is, I find it likely that Makuta could just have straight up murdered Vakama - and then his fellow Toa - in the fight that led to his temporary imprisonment without any ill effect. The Matoran would be comatose, the Vahi would be somewhere nearby, and the Toa Metru would all be dead and unable to interfere. The Toa Mata would still awaken due to the Cataclysm, and with Teridax there to misguide them, his plan could proceed unhindered (from his point of view).As it happened, he was tricked and defeated, but I found it clear that he did not intend to keep Vakama around at all. He wanted to grab him with the Shadow Hand and absorb him. But yes, he did have a plan which he modified a bit as necessary. His armor being destroyed in the fight with Takanuva was not his intention, for example, and so he had to wing a new plan when the Piraka arrived.

Edited by Katuko, Mar 29 2013 - 04:05 PM.

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#15 Offline The Phantom Terror

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 06:27 PM

OK, thank you for elaborating. Now I understand.


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#16 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 06:40 PM

Tthat's a question I've been wondering since it would be nice to deal with in that history retelling I'm writing -- was Makuta banking on the Toa-izing failing, by choosing non-destined Matoran? Or did he think that all he needed to do was ensure that the wrong team of Toa was made at the time, that the others like Nuhrii and company might or might not be destined to be Toa, but if so, they would be destined to handle some other problem, not stop him.

 

Or maybe a bit of both? That he was hoping they were non-destined but would have settled for Toa-izing the wrong team at the wrong time?

 

Haven't yet had time to research this more carefully, dunno if an answer exists.

 

I certainly don't think his Plan depended on the proper Toa being destined at that time, so I agree the double-deceit was a huge part of what led to his undoing. We've established in many past topics that he is a plans within plans kind of guy, who pursued multiple avenues of strategy so that if one failed he could fall back on alternatives and contingencies. He probably felt he could work around the right Toa coming to be, but he wasn't your typical arrogant "I can't possibly fail" type of villain -- he knew that making his success more likely by preventing the arising of threats was in general wise.


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#17 Offline Watcher on the Walls

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Posted Mar 29 2013 - 06:48 PM

Well, Makuta came to Metru Nui about 150 years(I think) before the Great Cataclysm, and he hired Dark Hunters to get rid of all the Toa Mangai. But I don't think we know how long the Dark Hunters were there.
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#18 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 02:14 AM

Well, Makuta came to Metru Nui about 150 years(I think) before the Great Cataclysm, and he hired Dark Hunters to get rid of all the Toa Mangai. But I don't think we know how long the Dark Hunters were there.

I have no idea where you got that number, but the timeline clearly states it was in the 1001th year before story present. Everything from him arriving there on, related to the takeover, is stated to happen at that time, which is apparently a year at most, IMO likely just a few months. Unless the timeline is wrong on that which would be nice to know. :P

 

Edit: A possible nitpick too, I'm not sure Teridax needed to arrive. He was the Makuta of Metru Nui, but not entirely certain what that entails canonically. I don't see it stated on BS01's timeline or Teridax page. Anywho.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 30 2013 - 02:17 AM.

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#19 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 04:49 AM

Didn't Makuta infect Mata Nui with the virus 300 years before the Great Cataclysm? Wouldn't that mean that he had to pose as Dume that early? I think it would make sense since he wanted to be in control of the process anyway and I suppose masquerading as Dume was the reaosn he was able to infect Mata Nui at all.

 

Also, what BS01 says does not prove anything in this case, because it only says that the last member of the Toa Mangai died 1001 years before present. There is no specification of the time Makuta was posing as Sume or when the first Toa fell. It just says it was part of The Plan, which we all know. :P


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#20 Offline Katuko

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 07:14 AM

Edit: A possible nitpick too, I'm not sure Teridax needed to arrive. He was the Makuta of Metru Nui, but not entirely certain what that entails canonically. I don't see it stated on BS01's timeline or Teridax page. Anywho.

Makuta can teleport, so I dare say he'd be in and out as he pleased, with the population none the wiser. Your average Matoran wouldn't have any idea of his whereabouts, only the local Turaga and/or Toa would be concerned with that. He could be in his luxury suite at the top of the Coliseum tower, or he could be off to Destral to speak with the Brotherhood, or maybe he would be somewhere else entirely.Makuta were never really shown to care much about individual cases in their region (he appeared to "fix" the Archives Massacre because it was destroying the city's workforce), so they would probably not find it strange that no Makuta showed up "just" because some Toa had disappeared and new ones arrived.

Edited by Katuko, Mar 30 2013 - 07:15 AM.

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#21 Online ChroXumo

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 08:28 AM

but he wasn't your typical arrogant "I can't possibly fail" type of villain

Well he was, but unlike most, he had the plans to back up that claim.


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#22 Offline maxim21

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 09:42 AM

Also, what BS01 says does not prove anything in this case, because it only says that the last member of the Toa Mangai died 1001 years before present. There is no specification of the time Makuta was posing as Sume or when the first Toa fell. It just says it was part of The Plan, which we all know. :P

When Makuta began posing as Dume is specified. And it's indeed 1,001 years ago.

Nidhiki, Krekka and Eliminator are hired around the same time, according to this timeline, so Toa should have begun to be killed around this time, too.


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#23 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 09:59 AM

Also, what BS01 says does not prove anything in this case, because it only says that the last member of the Toa Mangai died 1001 years before present. There is no specification of the time Makuta was posing as Sume or when the first Toa fell. It just says it was part of The Plan, which we all know. :P

When Makuta began posing as Dume is specified. And it's indeed 1,001 years ago.

Nidhiki, Krekka and Eliminator are hired around the same time, according to this timeline, so Toa should have begun to be killed around this time, too.

 

Oops, I guess I missed that then. Thanks for the reference!


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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 30 2013 - 01:03 PM

Didn't Makuta infect Mata Nui with the virus 300 years before the Great Cataclysm? Wouldn't that mean that he had to pose as Dume that early?

Why?

 

I think it would make sense since he wanted to be in control of the process anyway and I suppose masquerading as Dume was the reaosn he was able to infect Mata Nui at all.

No, being Dume was all about getting the Matoran into the pods. :) The virus affected Mata Nui himself (apparently the Core Processor, or perhaps some more indirect system).

 

Also, what BS01 says does not prove anything in this case, because it only says that the last member of the Toa Mangai died 1001 years before present. There is no specification of the time Makuta was posing as Sume or when the first Toa fell. It just says it was part of The Plan, which we all know. :P

I don't know how you figure. That's not what the Timeline I'm reading is saying... I checked it like five times. :P [I see now after I typed the following and read on you got this, but might as well put it here FTR. :P]

 

Here's the section in question:

 

 

1,001 Years Ago
 
  • ██ Makuta Teridax begins his plan to assume control of Metru Nui.
  • ██ A Worm species of Rahi Teridax had captured escape and enter Bohrok.
  • ██ The Makuta creates the Karzahni plant to drive the Matoran to the center of the city. However, Karzahni proves too willful and independent, prompting Teridax to abandons his project and create the Morbuzakh instead.
  • ██ Teridax captures Turaga Dume and places him in a Matoran Sphere, causing the Turaga to enter stasis. Teridax takes his Kanohi Kiril and masquerades as Dume.
  • ██ Teridax hires three Dark Hunters, Nidhiki, Krekka, and Eliminator for his plot. Nidhiki and Krekka are to patrol the city and do whatever Teridax bids them, while Eliminator is to wait outside the city and eliminate the Toa Mangai.
  • ██ Teridax sends the remaining Toa Mangai and the city's Chronicler, Kodan, on missions to close the Sea Gates of Metru Nui's Great Barrier. Eliminator kills them.
  • ██ Teridax requests the Ta-Matoran Vakama, the best Mask Maker in Ta-Metru, to forge a Mask of Time.
  • ██ The Great Spirit Mata Nui changes the stars above Metru Nui, making Teridax believe that the six Matoran who did know the location of the Great Disks were destined to become Toa. Mata Nui then planted in Teridax's mind that Vakama, Nokama, Matau, Onewa, Whenua, and Nuju would make an ununified Toa team.
  • ██ Teridax places the Morbuzakh plant in the Great Furnace, where it wreaks havoc on Metru Nui. Many Matoran are abducted by the monstrous plant.

 

The Teridax page also confirms at least that the hiring of the DH to kill the Mangai happened after he took over for Dume, which this begins by saying happened 1001 years ago (I'm assuming it could be at the beginning of that year, so might be almost 1002 years ago, though, since the Matoran were on Mata Nui 1000 years and story present is about a year and a half after that, but point is, nowhere near 150 or 300 years before the GC). Here's that quote:

 

He began his initial takeover by capturing the city leader, Turaga Dume, and placing him in a Matoran Sphere, forcing the Turaga into a deep sleep. Using his Shapeshifting powers, Teridax disguised himself as Dume, bringing in a pet Nivawk, which he used to spy on the city. Following this, he also hired three Dark Hunters, Nidhiki, Krekka, and Eliminator. Nidhiki and Krekka were ordered to patrol the city, and follow any requests made by Teridax, while Eliminator was stationed outside the city. Teridax sent most of the city's Toa outside the city on missions, and they were quickly exterminated by Eliminator, leaving only Toa Lhikan to guard the city.


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#25 Offline ToaDraconixMahvi

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Posted Jun 14 2013 - 08:01 AM

I know how long. In study for 3 years, I learned Lhikan was alone for roughly 3000 years, give or take 100 years. That's in actual time from the ligjt coming from he eyes.

Edited by ToaDraconixMahvi, Jun 14 2013 - 08:03 AM.

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#26 Online Black Six

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Posted Jun 14 2013 - 08:30 AM

Revival.Thread closed.
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