Is Antidermis affected by light?

[fishers64]

It's implied in Bionicle that light is supposed to be painful for beings of shadow. But how bad is it? If I aimed a searchlight at some antidermis in a dark room (perhaps a Makuta whose inner light was drained), would that actually damage the antidermis? Or cause pain for the Makuta?

 

Or not? It's just a light beam, right?

 

Could Takanuva actually kill/hurt the Makuta with his light powers? Or is the contrast purely poetic? What do you think?

[Just A Dot]

I would think that elemental light would be effective, so unless your searchlight is elementally fueled, it'd have no effect.

[Wazdakka]

I believe that the only PHYSICAL damage that Takanuva's light powers can do is heat/laser blasting things.

 

Yeah... your searchlight is going to irritate Makuta the same way that pointing a penlight at your friend bothers him.

[Kopekemaster]

I think it would cause actual pain for them, creatures of shadow. I think of it in a similar way that a bright light hurts your eyes, in an inexplicable way. It is a different kind of pain, yet one nonetheless.

 

But I'm guessing that it would have to be elemental light, not just regular light (like GG said).

[NuvaTube]

I don't really know...But I suspect that a flashlight would annoy Antidermis, but Elemental Light would hurt to varying degrees or outright kill (depends how much was used).

 

I am certain however that a Toa of Light could kill a Makuta, especially if they're in a vulnerable form like Antidermis, although because of the Toa Code they'd be very unlikely to.

 

And of course a Makuta could kill a Toa [of Light] with Elemental Shadow. Whereas being in normal shadow would just be annoying because you can't see.

[bonesiii]

The Voyatoran seemed to work just as well in daylight as night when antidermified, so it shouldn't be like Orcs who would try to avoid even a flashlight beam, no. GG's answer seems right, although IMO an extremely powerful blast of it, like a highly focused beam of sunlight (versus just a spotlight) should be bad for them. My statement for the lightstone rifle that the blast of light when the lightstone projectile explodes could harm them was canonized, too, so yeah.

 

As for kill, well... it's unclear exactly what light actually does to shadow beings, or more specifically, why it would do anything at all. So no real idea how to tell if it could do that. If it is just "deeply stunning", then killing might be entirely off the table. They are not actually made of shadow, they just use it as a basic power and have no moral light in their minds. That's not necessarily remotely the same as their life force.

Edited November 6, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

Sorry, related question:

 

So is the difference between Light EE hitting a being of shadow and just plain old light, whether it's harmful?

Edited November 6, 2013 by fishers64

[Zacian]

I'm not really sure. Well what I think is that plain light is just irritating while Light EE could actually do damage to them.

[NorikSigma]

The Voyatoran seemed to work just as well in daylight as night when antidermified, so it shouldn't be like Orcs who would try to avoid even a flashlight beam, no.

Bear in mine that the antodermis is in a 'shell' of sorts: the Voyatoran's body. This means that it would be less affected by light.

Sorry, related question: So is the difference between Light EE hitting a being of shadow and just plain old light, whether it's harmful?

I suppose so, but I think the reason why EE light is more dangerous is the iintensity, not because of EE-ness, but the intensity of light.

[bonesiii]

Bear in mine that the antodermis is in a 'shell' of sorts: the Voyatoran's body. This means that it would be less affected by light.

Are you sure? I always thought it was a cloud hovering over the surface of their body, so more open to light. I say this because (aside from the art depiction that clearly looks like this) they could be safely freed by firing EP at them. Presumably the EP hits the antidermis first, and destroys it (since it isn't in Kraata form therefore not destined to transform). Otherwise wouldn't it be hitting the Matoran first and either transform or destroy him before doing anything to the antidermis?

 

Just wrote the part of 2006 plot in my retelling that mentions this, so kinda need to know.

[Chro]

I always had the impression that the antidermis was contained inside the Matoran. When the Inika fired EP at them, the Zamor spheres did their weird phase thing, going through the Matoran itself and hitting the antidermis inside them somehow. I don't know how this would fit in with your detailed scientific explanations of protodermis on a molecular scale ( ) but I'd think that the "transform or destroy" effect would happen on a small enough scale that the antidermis would be destroyed with minimal harm to the Matoran itself.

[bonesiii]

Well, I should correct something from my previous post -- I guess it would really hit the Matoran and the antidermis at about the same time. But there's another problem -- the Zamor themselves turn intangible on contact. It's basically like a water balloon. Both the antidermis and the EP should be released just outside the Matoran, and continue to splash over their outside due to momentum.

 

And antidermis is a cloud that can hold form, only slowly dissipating, so my interpretation seems possible. If the antidermis or EP go inside the Matoran, I'd think it would have to "seep" in from the outside, rather than being released inside. But I'm probably wrong.

 

Anyways, I suppose EP might be fully capable of "knowing" it shouldn't transform/destroy the Matoran (I guess it kinda has to know that either way), if it hits both, but if it's released inside, I don't see how it would actually hit only the antidermis. Plus, how would it get spread around through the whole Matoran? Would it be released inside the metal itself? An outside-splash would seem to explain how it spreads out.

Edited November 12, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

 

 

Jaller triggered the launcher. The sphere flew straight and true, striking one of the Matoran in the chest and passing harmlessly through his body. Then the sickly glow faded and the Matoran looked around as if he had awakened from a long sleep.

 

That's the EP spheres.

 

 

 

[Zaktan] triggered the mechanism, and it hurled the small zamor sphere at the Matoran, striking him dead-on. The sphere turned immaterial once more and passed into the Matoran's body, releasing its contents.

 

None of this explains why the EP destroyed the antidermis and not the Matoran. I guess it could be that the EP destroyed the antidermis and transformed the Matoran (from slaves to normal Matoran).

 

The only other explanation I can think of (which is pretty dumb) is that the EP entity likes having Matoran around as pawns and killing them is not in its better interest. Both of these are rather lame, but could work.

[bonesiii]

Please note that those quotes only confirm what we knew already -- that the crystal spheres themselves (the outer wall; the container) turn intangible, and momentum keeps them flying through the target. That doesn't say whether the contents are turned intangible briefly so they could be released inside the body. And seems truer to Ockham's razor to think that the contents never turn intangible at all so stay outside. (To explain where I'm coming from there, in case it wasn't already clear. )

 

I guess it could be that the EP destroyed the antidermis and transformed the Matoran (from slaves to normal Matoran).

If my thinking is right, then the EP should be in roughly the same amount as the antidermis, and react with it in such a way that the two neutralize each other, so it would be similar to a chemical reaction. Since those are (in this explanation) more reactive, and both are released outside and "splashed around" (at least at first), the EP would logically be drawn to the antidermis cloud, eating through it. Then there would be no more left to affect the Matoran.

 

But this falls apart if the antidermis is inside the Matoran, IMO. The closest antidermis would (I think) get destroyed first, but then you'd have a spherical area inside the Matoran directly exposed to the EP, which would transform or destroy just that part right away (or so I'd think). So you could end up with a dead Matoran with a hole in his middle.

 

We could rescue the idea and just say that the EP is advanced enough that if it senses any antidermis it would suspend its normal reactions even against physical internal barriers. But it just seems overcomplicated so I'd only go there if it was confirmed the contents themselves are released inside the body, versus outside. I can see EP pushing easily through air, but through a body seems less likely.

 

On the other hand, does the antidermis mind-control require that it be inside the brain? Probably not -- infected masks don't. But maybe.

[fishers64]

I guess my issue is more with the language here:

[Zaktan] triggered the mechanism, and it hurled the small zamor sphere at the Matoran, striking him dead-on. The sphere turned immaterial once more and passed into the Matoran's body, releasing its contents.

This seems to imply (to me ) that the contents of the sphere are released after the sphere passes into the Matoran's body.

 

In further case, how would you freeze an entire being in time or draw away an entire being's power if it was just on the surface?

 

All right, time for the big weapons...

3) Why do they become intangible when they hit their targets?3) To use another medicine analogy, think of the zamor sphere as a gel-cap. If the gel-cap doesn't dissolve in your system, the medicine inside it can't help you any. If the zamor sphere doesn't go intangible, it can't release its contents inside you.

Emphasis mine.

Hello, Greg. Lately, people have been saying that EP is the cure for the Piraka's virus, even because you said it. But if you shoot EP at a Matoran, not only it will hit the virus, but it will obviously hit the Matoran. It is not the virus' destiny to change, so it will be destroyed. But what of the Matoran? It's not its destiny to change into Matoran Nuva (Or something) so they would be destroyed as well. So, EP would or wouldn't work as the cure? Let's say you have a wall, and it has paint on it, and underneath the paint is wallpaper. You can scrape the paint off without scraping off the wallpaper, because the paint is the top layer. Same thing here -- the virus overlays the Matoran, so it is the virus the EP affects, not the Matoran. Remember the way zamor spheres work -- they turn intangible and deposit their contents inside the target, so the virus is the first thing the EP encounters. nAnd that's how the EP affect the virus without affecting the Matoran.

Hmm...so the virus is coating like the inside of the Matoran, and the EP passes in and hits the virus first. Bingo. The fact that the Zamor juice spreads everywhere inside helps with the question above... *keeps searching*

 

 

 

9) I think it was elaborated in 2006that it would be possible to kill a Makuta if you could crack open Makuta-armor and then fire a EP-filled Zamor sphere through the hole into the Makuta (since EP reversed the antidermis effect on ensalved Voyatoran). Is this still canon?

9) No, I never said that. The antidermis affected by the EP was a minute amount, and since a Makuta's energy is not a solid, a Makuta could simply break off the energy affected and still exist. The only known way to kill a Makuta would be to shatter his armor and then keep him out of another body long enough for his energy to disperse, or possibly with a strong enough blast of light energy.

 

Hmm...

Edited November 12, 2013 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

I see... So I was sort of half right -- the antidermis must be both in and a bit out? So sort of like mist coming off of them, so it's still the first thing the EP hits? If I read that right.

 

And now that you post those, my (lousy) memory is rushing back of seeing those quotes back in the day lol.

 

In further case, how would you freeze an entire being in time or draw away an entire being's power if it was just on the surface?

It really would be irrelevant since those are energy effects and would envelop the entire being including the inside regardless of whether they spread from an external point of contact or an internal one. It's matter that's tricky (especially when released inside solid metal... still not sure how that would work).

 

Edit: I'm still confused though -- I thought it could only trigger on "impact", and how do you impact a gas/energy cloud? His use of the word target makes me wonder if there's an ingredient of mental designation of a target, much like many mask powers... but probably not.

Edited November 12, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

Er, none of the answers I dug up seem to be helpful on that number.

 

My guess is that the sphere hits the Matoran, and turns intangible once inside, but inside there's nothing for the EP to hit but antidermis, so it destroys all that. The antidermis seems to be "covering the inside of the machine".

 

Sphere hits Matoran, EP hits antidermis.

 

(Although that would pose a problem if you were trying to kill a Makuta with it...)

[bonesiii]

Maybe Zamor themselves have a built-in power to target the biological components only, which would at least solve the metal issue (neither antidermis nor EP would go there) and maybe help explain how the antidermis spread out in the first place (although they don't have blood, they might have some system that moves things around).

 

The EP's targeting of the antidermis specifically could be something in the Zamor power (first thing to check is if there are foreign substances in a target, so the Zamor power would be designed to function well for antidotes as well as 'poisons', and if there is nothing to counteract, it then targets the biology?), or just the EP itself being smart.

 

By "target" in this post I mean, only allow the contents to become tangible again when passing through (foreign substances or biology, and not metal). Could work I guess...

[fishers64]

That would make sense, considering that the Zamor launchers are metal. Except for this:

 

 

 

10) The zamor spheres have to reach certain speed to turn intangible (Like the Kanoka to activate their powers), I mean, you can hold one in your hand and it won't fall through it, unless it is coming fast?

Yes

 

But the Zamor do have selective intangibility powers, as indicated here:

 

 

 

3) Okay, Zamor go intang. when they hit the target. What happens to the empty sphere after that? Goes back to tangible after hitting and lands on the ground behind the target? What if it falls into the ground, does gravity keep pulling it down? Or does it just not go through ground usually?

 

3) Once it is empty, it passes through the target and goes back to being tangible. It does not go intangible again when it hits the floor because it is empty at that point.

 

5) And does the whole surface have to go totally intangible at once? Or could only the top half be commanded mentally, for example, to become intangible so the Piraka (or whoever) filling it with stuff could still hold it? 5) The latter

 

So there's already selective intangibility powers involved, first to detect if there is any substance inside the crystal, then to detect mind waves to only intangible-ize part way. Such a localization would seem feasible, considering that shooting a Zamor at a rock wouldn't be too good, so it would nice if it bounced off that.

 

But that doesn't explain the EP localization, since once the EP is loose and the Zamor is gone, it's still loose in that system. And EP is known to affect mechanical parts as well as biology - if nothing else, when it destroys something, it destroys everything, mechanics, biology, and all. Still, I thought the "coating" theory would explain that.

 

EDIT: To further explain myself, I meant that the antidermis would enter in an "gap" in the Matoran body cavity, invading the rest of it from there. The cure would act the same way - the Zamor would hit that section, forcing the EP to hit the virus first and use up its energy to kill the virus.

Edited November 13, 2013 by fishers64

[Click]

This could also have something to do with Matoran biology. Perhaps they aren't as densely packed as we are, and inside of their armor is just their organs with some empty space, like General Grievous, I guess. The Zamor could penetrate their armor, deposit the antidermis inside the cavity, from which it would spread out into the space and infect what it needs to. Being a gas and becoming tangible again once it goes inside would probably stop it from getting inside the Matoran's lungs or veins. When the EP comes in, it also goes into that cavity and finds the antidermis, then spreads throughout the body killing the antidermis.

At least, that makes sense to me.

[Infrared]

I asked Greg the original question here, thought I'd share:

Hi again! An interesting question was posed on BZPower I thought you might have some insight into:

It's implied in Bionicle that light is supposed to be painful for beings of shadow. But how bad is it? If I aimed a searchlight at some antidermis in a dark room (perhaps a Makuta whose inner light was drained), would that actually damage the antidermis? Or cause pain for the Makuta? Or not? It's just a light beam, right? Could Takanuva actually kill/hurt the Makuta with his light powers? Or is the contrast purely poetic? What do you think?Similarly, given that alternate Teridax purged his inner darkness, what sort of effects would a blast of shadow have on his essence? Thanks!

If he is a being of light, with no darkness at all, then he would be affected the same way Takanuva would be affected.

 

SourceUnfortunately, it's a bit vague, though.

 

Also, I must admit I haven't looked through the later half of the topic with too much depth so this could have been brought up already, but do we know if EP is destroyed when it transforms/destroys? Almost every time EP's been used it's been in a pool, so it's hard to tell if the EP that actually comes into contact with whatever's being transformed/destroyed is itself destroyed or not.

[fishers64]

So if you shot a beam of light at antidermis, you would get light inside the antidermis, making the Makuta like Twilight Taka? It doesn't seem that he answered the question...

Edited November 13, 2013 by fishers64

[Chro]

Yeah, seems like Greg only answered the final part of the question, instead of the main bit. Shame. :/

 

The only known way to kill a Makuta would be to shatter his armor and then keep him out of another body long enough for his energy to disperse, or possibly with a strong enough blast of light energy.

 

This obviously doesn't specify a difference between the effects of elemental or natural light, though. Huh.

[Infrared]

So if you shot a beam of light at antidermis, you would get light inside the antidermis, making the Makuta like Twilight Taka? It doesn't seem that he answered the question...

Yeah, it is sort of unfortunate but I thought I'd share it since he at least took the time to answer part of it. I might be able to rephrase it by asking something to the effect of "is the difference between Light EE and just plain old light hitting a being of shadow whether it's harmful or not" (adapted from post #7 above) if you're still interested (or if you or anyone else wants to ask him by all means go ahead, the topic is here).

Edited November 14, 2013 by Infrared