Rpg: Starscape

[Alex Humva]

OOCXom, it was happening on like page 3. Little late.Also, Rover, I was referring to MY guy, not your peeps.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Ah, roger. So long as the fellow is mentioned as existing and moving and such, I'm cool with it. No guarantee of instant detection, of course - otherwise, what would the point of stealth missions be?

[Alex Humva]

OOCAlready ahead of you Rover. One of these days I might have to make a novelization of this RPG, just so people read the background fluff going on.

[Lara White]

OOC: Yeah, that should be a rule of thumb. Unless someone botched it majorly, no instand detection.

[Xomeron]

Heck, moving shouldn't be much matter unless you happen to have a telescope pointed at the ship. It's transmitting and firing engines that give you away, and even then ion engines can be pretty stealthy.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: I was referring more specifically to mention of the fellow's actions as he's going about his job.And detection away from the planet is largely a matter of luck. The closer you get, the luckier the planet's sensor systems are likely to get. On re-entry, the probability of detection is very high - somewhat lower if you're away from population centers, but still very high.

[Veeci]

Ooc: (@Alex): Yes, the Leben only know about a 1/3 of the Sector and it's outdated, but regardless it would be helpful information for the Alizarin regardless seeing that, as far as I know, they have no real idea whats on this side of the river. And the Leben have, albeit miniscule, some knowledge of the Thernians since they've been through 1-32 and 1-31.I feel that I should explain why the Leben are doing what they are. They have extremely limited traditional technology which means no guns, no atom bombs, no high-power computing. They are at a real disadvantage at the moment. For their own defense they need to obtain specimens of other species to develop biological weapons to actually affect them or else they will be creamed. With the TAP surrounding them they are getting desperate, hence Niikka's actions. (@Power) Ic (2-5): "Well, we can't deny that we're in more of a strategic pinch than your species is at the moment, however the TAP is right on your borders as well. Who's to say they won't attempt a strike again. Do you have any bargaining pieces if it were to happen again? If you're not convinced perhaps I can sweeten the deal? My race is very proficient with biological technology as I'm sure you've figured out by now. There's the possibility we could develop something specifically for the Alizarin as a sign of... friendship and future prosperity?""As for the information, we do have that with us, yes."Ic (1-33): The duo of Leben ships entered the system's Keiper Belt and began to search for the possibility of any other species presence, particularly civilian cargo ships passing through.Ooc: Oh my, if I botch this the Leben are screwed.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Veeci

[Lara White]

OOC: I'd also like to point out that unless you have refrigateration units that can get your hull down from several hundred million Kelvin (Wikipedia is telling me that D-T fusion is most efficient at about 800 mil K) to 3 K, your reactor is going to be visible. You can't run a refrigateration unit without running the reactor to power it. And those are the biggest heat sinks I've ever heard of--presumably the ones they use in combat have ways of cooling off in mid-flight without exposing themselves, I know the Normandy did. And saying you emit no EM radiation is ridiculous--it's literally saying that you absorb all light. You know what else absorbs all light that hits it? A black hole.Saying you can look like an asteroid is silly. From Earth, with modern tech, we can tell the composition of things that are incredibly far away. Finding an asteroid which is shaped like a known alien vessel and is made 100% of resources used by the same race is sure to raise a few red flags.Just my first two cents on Stealth In Space.

[Xomeron]

And that's much less than the infrared light reflecting off an average asteroid

[Akaku: Master of Flight]

IC: 1-10"Upon your request, we do have files of our own species should you be curious enough to take a look at them." simply said Thadanox. Thernian Computers are still electronic, so the Files (OOC: Which would pretty much be my profile,) are quite minimal in size.IC: 2-5"Alright. Basiclly, us Thernians made a breakthrough in Slipspace technology, and soon after we discovered a race known as the Kalarii. Apparently they also discovered a Race known as the natsirt. eventually my leader and the leaders of the other two races joined up and formed an alliance, as im sure you're aware of. It wasnt long after the agreements took place that The Natsirt's announced its concern of your species being potential enemies. They asked us to send aid for an attack before we even made our decision and it was torn enough as it was. We more or less tagged along to prove our part in this newly made alliance, although once us Thernians fully understood the situation at hand, our leader ultimatley decided to pull out our forces, as you may had noticed. shortly after the Natsirt and Kalarii followed suit, and left us with the more or less neutral state we are at now." Voxxik paused for a moment to let the Alizarin take in all the information. "This caused many uproars and rebellions, and the blame for the push for a unnecisary attack was placed on the Natsirt leaders. The Natsirt as a result reformed there leadership, replacing there old warmongers who ordered the attack with much more sensible and peacful authority. Because of all this, the Natsirt are worried of an attack provoked by there previous leaders, and as such so are we.""That being said, the Thernians would like to apologize for taking part in posing a threat to your species and your forces. We realize that we followed in the footsteps of those who made a horrible mistake, and we feel it is most unfotunate that we have left such a negative impression on your kind. We would like to request that there is to be no more hostilities towards eachothers races, and perhaps one day the TAP and your kind can once again trust eachother.""If you agree to help us in this matter, our leaders will do all we can to publicly premote peace with the Alizarins, and convince the other species, especailly the natsirt, to do the same. We want no war, as im sure you probably dont either. Once things get straightend out and if everything goes well, our race would be more then willing to trade information and resources with your species."Voxxik sighed, before finally bringing up the last matter at hand:"In the event that what were trying to avoid does occur, and battle takes place, we would like to assure you that if we do join the fight, it is only for the sake of keeping our alliance with the TAP, and we refuse to attack any civilian people or structures they posses."--Akaku: Master of Flight

Edited November 28, 2011 by Akaku: Master of Flight

[Lara White]

OOC: I believe that's what is known as a "non-sequitur" Xom. -.-

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Thing is, though, that asteroids don't put out their own energy. They reflect stuff or absorb it. A ship putting off energy and reflecting it at the same time is going to glow like hot coals. Your sole chance at stealth is in hoping the enemy isn't looking where you're at.

[Lara White]

OOC: I'm glad someone else read that site. :w:

[Xomeron]

OOC: Which is of course a pretty huge chance.

[Kothra]

OOC: Akaku, this post here...

[Lara White]

OOC: With modern tech, a full scan of the sky can take four hours. I would not be surprised to see dedicated systems that exist only to scan the sky (and not distant galaxies) with future tech being able to do the same thing in much less time.IC: Licht's computer relayed the Thernian files to the Infinitus as well.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Lloyd: the White Wolf

[Akaku: Master of Flight]

OOC: ###### i completley missed that xDediting...--Ak

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Anything within the inner solar system is pretty much bound to be detected. If you just go on the edge, you've got a good chance of only being detected after you've left, but you're still going to be detected, logged, and passed on to neighboring systems.

[Necro]

OOC: How about we just establish ingame distances away from the colonization effort in the solar system in-question at which point you're detected, a range where you roll a random number generator and it tells you whether or not you are, and a range where you're not, and restrict weapon distance so you can't just shoot while invisible? Because this is already causing more bickering than I like.

[Xomeron]

And you expect to pick out one particularly bright speck out of the entire sky, which is filled with hundreds of thousands of specks(asteroids, which will ALL show up on a scan of this resolution?Necro: Aye. I'll work on some numbers.

Edited November 28, 2011 by King Of Shadows

[Lara White]

OOC: Well, the problem is that A: We could very easily have colonies across the system, so we'd have to track those instead of just using them as fluff (I know that both Gallia and Ithaka have MP3 Elysium-style setups for gas mining on their gas giants), and that's not including ships we have out on patrol. We have no way of ensuring that whoever is doing the RNG rolling isn't fudging it, and restricting weapon distance A: makes no sense, since there isn't a cutoff range in space (max effective range, but theoretically, if you know where something is going, you can hit it 100% of the time) and it eliminates a legitimate tactic.Xom: When one of them is far hotter than any of the others? Yep.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Considering that the light is going to get there eventually, and the ship is definitely going to show up, at the very least, as an aberration, on scans. It might take hours for it to be noticed, but it will, at some point, be noticed. The key to stealth missions lies in either speed - having your job done by the time you're noticed - or trickery - flying under a false flag or some other method of avoiding an accurate assessment of your threat level.

[Lara White]

OOC: If you think we're being infuriatingly stubborn about this, Xom, I've been doing amatuer research and analysis on interstellar warfare and peripheral topics for years. I'm merely pointing out the flaws in the arguments.

[Necro]

OOC: Well, the problem is that A: We could very easily have colonies across the system, so we'd have to track those instead of just using them as fluff (I know that both Gallia and Ithaka have MP3 Elysium-style setups for gas mining on their gas giants),

OOC: Be more specific. Because right now all I'm getting out of this is "We'd have to make the gigantic posts actually useful instead of just being giant"

and that's not including ships we have out on patrol.

The patrol range is the range where you have to roll digital dice.

We have no way of ensuring that whoever is doing the RNG rolling isn't fudging it,

So then we'll find one with a record you can check. There are billions of sites on the internet, I guarantee you there's a random number generator with a displayable history somewhere.

and restricting weapon distance A: makes no sense, since there isn't a cutoff range in space (max effective range, but theoretically, if you know where something is going, you can hit it 100% of the time)

This is a game. I don't care that this is supposed to be overtly hard sci-fi and we're supposed to apply logic. It's a game before it's a hard sci-fi story, and to compensate for the fact that there aren't many people who'll play with years of military training, some things applicable in real-life are going to go out the window for the sake of making the game a game, instead of pages upon pages of bickering. As was often the case in IL.

and it eliminates a legitimate tactic.

Which is? You're going to need to be more specific, this isn't really very helpful.Also I just noticed we finished negotiations. Will get to work on my IR.IC: "Um." As he spoke, Argus gestured to the Alizarin host. "We actually were brought here by the Tsui'nau. I don't mean to be presumptuous, but we're both a long way out, and without transport. Is there any sort of way you could ferry us back?"

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: The legitimate tactic I see it eliminating is pretty much any form of long-range sniping. At the edge of the system, you have hours of time in which you aren't going to be detected at all. If you fire off some lasers while you're there, they'll know you're attacking right around the same time the lasers hit. Missiles and ballistics would be detected rather sooner, and could conceivably be defended against, but a good shot with lasers from millions of miles away could be a very clever way to get one over on your enemy.

[Necro]

OOC: No artillery sniping. That's just silly from a gameplay perspective. Unless you want to write up a new class of ships specifically dedicated to it, and bear in-mind to offset the advantage that a long-distance, undetected first-strike gives, it'll need a high industry cost.

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Oh, bah. I'm beginning to think this would work better as an RTS.Whatever, though. Everything is stealthy and you can't shoot farther than the tip of your nose, if you like. I'm going to drop the science.

[Lara White]

OOC: Well, the problem is that A: We could very easily have colonies across the system, so we'd have to track those instead of just using them as fluff (I know that both Gallia and Ithaka have MP3 Elysium-style setups for gas mining on their gas giants),

OOC: Be more specific. Because right now all I'm getting out of this is "We'd have to make the gigantic posts actually useful instead of just being giant"

I mean that it's that much more data we have to track, instead of simplifying it to "we hold this system."

and that's not including ships we have out on patrol.

The patrol range is the range where you have to roll digital dice.

Point taken.

We have no way of ensuring that whoever is doing the RNG rolling isn't fudging it,

So then we'll find one with a record you can check. There are billions of sites on the internet, I guarantee you there's a random number generator with a displayable history somewhere.

I have yet to find one that stores its data for any longer than one session, but I suppose you could.

and restricting weapon distance A: makes no sense, since there isn't a cutoff range in space (max effective range, but theoretically, if you know where something is going, you can hit it 100% of the time)

This is a game. I don't care that this is supposed to be overtly hard sci-fi and we're supposed to apply logic. It's a game before it's a hard sci-fi story, and to compensate for the fact that there aren't many people who'll play with years of military training, some things applicable in real-life are going to go out the window for the sake of making the game a game, instead of pages upon pages of bickering. As was often the case in IL.

All I'm hearing here is "I don't care that pre-established rules of this game should apply, I don't want them to, lalala." Xom said that it was going to be hard scifi, to avoid the mistakes of IL, and those of us who know the subject matter better have an advantage.

and it eliminates a legitimate tactic.

Which is? You're going to need to be more specific, this isn't really very helpful.

Observing the acceleration, thrust, and mass of the target, predicting where they will be when your shot reaches them, and then shooting there. It's called leading and it's really the only way to hit someone that you can't aim at in real time. If you can adjust your laser's optics, you can shoot effectively at infinite range. If you pack more delta V into a missile, it can effectively guide your missile to any point. There is no logical basis for a cutoff range. If we want to shoot at each other from across a solar system, I see no reason why we can't.Also, if we drop the science for one aspect of the game, there's nothing stopping us from dropping science in other aspects as well, then we go the way of IL. Edited November 28, 2011 by Lloyd: the White Wolf

[Toast of Awesomeness]

IC: Our capital ship will transport you back to your world, my friends.The Grand Proctor turned towards the other diplomats.Well, this has been a most successful meeting. If all are satisfied, we will be taking our leave of you now.

[Necro]

OOC: Oh, bah. I'm beginning to think this would work better as an RTS.Whatever, though. Everything is stealthy and you can't shoot farther than the tip of your nose, if you like. I'm going to drop the science.

OOC: Honestly, I think a turn-based system would work better. RTS' are too hectic, too much of "Amass a bunch of troops and just steamroll everything", it's one of the reasons I like the idea of a game I saw that I forget the name of, where one player gives the orders, and the ground soldiers are controlled by players in an FPS environment. Much less numbers-oriented, and you don't have to babysit a platoon who'll just stand around getting murderfied if an enemy army comes upon them, and can work on other matters.

I mean that it's that much more data we have to track, instead of simplifying it to "we hold this system."

Or we can come up with a standard layout for systems. I don't see why we haven't, to be honest. It'd make this stuff much easier.

I have yet to find one that stores its data for any longer than one session, but I suppose you could.

I'm pretty sure one of the old user-generated BZRPGs had one. One of Beliwa's, I believe. I'll see if I can dig it up.

All I'm hearing here is "I don't care that pre-established rules of this game should apply, I don't want them to, lalala." Xom said that it was going to be hard scifi, to avoid the mistakes of IL, and those of us who know the subject matter better have an advantage.

First off, the last sentence sounds pretty entitled to me. Second, if that's the case, let me rephrase:This is a game. Games aren't real-life. Unless you're a war commander, we're not going to be able to operate a 100% realistic space warfare setting, and we're not going to be able to get super-detailed without stupid bickering over little discrepancies that would be taken care of by the universe being the universe in real-life. So, we use simplified systems to make it manageable and fun, instead of hectic and argumentative.

Observing the acceleration, thrust, and mass of the target, predicting where they will be when your shot reaches them, and then shooting there. It's called leading and it's really the only way to hit someone that you can't aim at in real time. If you can adjust your laser's optics, you can shoot effectively at infinite range. If you pack more delta V into a missile, it can effectively guide your missile to any point. There is no logical basis for a cutoff range. If we want to shoot at each other from across a solar system, I see no reason why we can't.

I fail to see how limiting weapon ranges doesn't allow leading the target.

Also, if we drop the science for one aspect of the game, there's nothing stopping us from dropping science in other aspects as well, then we go the way of IL.

We've already altered the original post for the sake of utility and keeping the game functional and balanced. For example, from a logical perspective, there's no reason allies can't use the shipyards of the other. But you can't so that the game works better. Suggesting that implementing a range system is going to send us into chaos and anarchy is ridiculous sensationalism.IC: "Very well then, that should work." As Argus spoke to the Tsui'nau, Ranes turned to address the Alizarin."We're grateful for being given the opportunity to represent ourselves here, and look forward to the future endeavors between our races." Edited November 28, 2011 by Necro

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Honestly, at this point, I'm agreeing that some aspects of science do need to be altered to fit within the context of the game. Not a free-for-all of carrots-on-sticks or anything (that would cause a matter-antimatter annihilation anyway), just some tweaking to make the big fuzzy fit better within the small boxy world of this game.And Necro, that idea with the single coordinating player and a bunch of FPS-style players sounds amazing.IC(Conference): The General of the Armies stood somewhat awkwardly, waving his hands vaguely in the air to avoid looking as impatient as he really was. Mentioning the coloniser waiting overhead a second time would be really unspeakably rude, so he just waited quietly while everyone else exchanged pleasantries. It was confounding, really - the proper time to say how very glad you are to be somewhere is when you get there, not when it's finally time to leave.The Diemawr diplomats, for their parts, were making the rounds of the remaining visitors, bobbing their heads and waving their hands as they, too, exchanged fairly pointless pleasantries. They'd already spoken to at least one of the delegates five times already.

Edited November 28, 2011 by The Shadows Out of Time

[Xomeron]

OOC: Rover: That's the basic concept of Dust-514New Ship Upgrade, this is based on the real-world cloaking devices being developed.Stealthship: While true stealth in space is close to impossible, these ships can come close; they are coated in exotic materials which bends low-intensity Electromagnetic radiation around the ship; this has a one way effect, depending on the charge applied to the substance. While this technology was perfected by most races late in their Information Age, it can only see limited development on starships due to the materials used to make it being fragile and rare. A Stealthship traps all its EM radiation inside the stealth field, but the effect is one-way; the ship essentially can see but remain unseen. However, the EM buildup can only be held for two hours or so; a ship must release the held energy in a bright flash of light, or the stealth field will destroy itself. The field is a physical object; you can't shoot through it without destroying it.Slots: 1 for Small Ships and Fighters, 3 for Medium, 5 for Large. 10 for Starbases.

Edited November 28, 2011 by King Of Shadows

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: I would giggle so much if there were stealth Starbases. Say, Bob, what's with that empty black sphere of space over your planet?

[Xomeron]

Yep. This is a black-sphere style cloak. So occlusion detection can't spot it.No, you can't tell the black of space from the black of this cloak; it has to pass in front of a radiant object such as a planet or a very close by(less than 10 AU) star.

[Necro]

OOC: And Necro, that idea with the single coordinating player and a bunch of FPS-style players sounds amazing.

OOC: Agreed. I just wish I had the money to spend on digital-only games right now - I don't have an account with enough money for it, and I haven't heard good or bad about it, so I can't justify going and putting money in for it.

OOC: I would giggle so much if there were stealth Starbases. Say, Bob, what's with that empty black sphere of space over your planet?

Weather balloon.Also I'd personally add that the stealthship upgrade can't be active while warping?

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: Xom, can you just make the upgrade take up 10 slots on a Starbase? I really, badly want to have the satisfaction of knowing I can make something really, really stupid.

[Xomeron]

OOC: That kind of defeats the purpose; if you're cloaked but you have to drop the cloak to jump then someone with a tendency for Munchkin playing(not saying it's Lloyd) will have their race consider the few seconds it takes to establish the cloak and assume that brief pulse of infrared light is reason to launch a full scale alert.Edited just for you, Rover.

Edited November 28, 2011 by King Of Shadows

[Necro]

OOC: Fair enough. And personally, I say we let it go on starbases. Sometimes, it's the stupidest things that are the awesomest.Edit: Yay!

Edited November 28, 2011 by Necro

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

OOC: This is totally a picture of my next Starbase design. Top-secret.Ahem. I'm racking my brain to try and find a good application for a stealthy Starbase now that you've given it the go-ahead. I fully intend to accomplish this feat...Wait a tick. I didn't see a mention of stealth fighters. Does it take 1 slot for them, too?

[Xomeron]

Yup. Edited.