What's up w/ the rampant canonization?

[AdaptingChaos]

All these little bits of "canonization" that has been going on lately on the Lego Message Boards, I myself, will not consider them to be canon in anyway due to Greg mostly "canonizing" them officially just by simply saying "sure" or "okay". Maybe one day he'll probably just answer some other kids request to canonize something by just saying "mhm". It just doesn't feel real to me. It doesn't feel like a definite answer of "Yeah lets canonize this because it will be important and possibly lead to something great in the story." Atleast thats the way I look at it.  

I also have another feeling towards topic, but ill explain some other time.

Oh look at the can of worms I opened.

 

"Rampant canonization" is never gonna stop until the day Greg stops answering questions on LMB.

Dude. 

 

 

 

 

I'd actually consider that a good example of why you can't (even though I'm firmly in the camp that they did have a relationship... and it's kind of an opposite situation anyways). There are still people who genuinely don't know it is not considered canon, and every time it is brought up ever, there is somebody who has to point out that it isn't canon and doesn't matter.

Which was the general point I was getting at - you will always have somebody tell you you're wrong.

I could choose not to accept this new Toa Mangai of the Green, for example, and lament in some future topic about how we never had more than one Toa of the Green that wasn't just an off-hand mention despite being an extra element featured relatively early on compared to others added like Iron or Psionics. There will be somebody that will show up to tell me there is. And it's not like I didn't know that, but feigning ignorance doesn't get that point across and can be even counterproductive. You can't just pretend not to know and still discuss the subject.

~|ET|~

 

That's a very good point, 'cause it leads to things like being talked down to 'cause you were wrong about something that you didn't know got canonized sometime in the last four years of cancellation. The more you canonize bits and pieces, the less and less the general fan supposedly knows (how many people outside of BZPower even know a single thing that becomes "official" here?), and the more high and mighty those who do get to act for little good reason.

 

 

agreed here, i've been told off multiple occasions by certain members for not knowing something that was "common knowledge*"

 

*a lego message board answer

 

I would also hate for this to happen. Not everyone has time to be on the LMB to read everything that is now "canon".

Edited December 6, 2014 by AdaptingChaos

[Quasar]

I'd really just like to address one of my biggest issues with those trying to defend these actions:

 

If I do not like what is being done, NO I CANNOT JUST IGNORE IT!

 

(Capped for emphasis since I already bold... not necessarily yelling. Or maybe I am.)

 

Because there will always, always be somebody there to "correct" you over something you didn't know got canonized or don't like canonized. And it won't matter that you "chose" not to. Nevermind that you really can't just "choose" not to accept something that is fact...  As an example, I am very passionate about the old Star Wars Expanded Universe. But it's not canon now and I can't just choose to believe it is (as much as I would like to, and I really very much would), because going forward everything will be based on the fact that it's not and doesn't matter. It's a flipped scenario here, but still similar. Because to everyone else it is real and that's all that matters. You will always have to deal with being "wrong."

 

What has been happening here lately IS literally just writing fanfiction and pushing it forward. Go write your stories and enjoy that - the fun wouldn't be any different. But doing it with the canonization agenda shouldn't be happening.

 

~|ET|~

 

I feel like if I were more invested in the story, this is the attitude I'd have. I mean, asking Greg to clarify bits from the old story is one thing, but again, it just seems odd to keep asking him to make what amounts to headcanon official.

 

I mean, isn't that literally what fanfic is for? To take all your interpretations and ideas and implement them into the main story? Isn't it a bit odd for, like, this one headcanon to ascend  to actual canon? I mean, I could be wrong since I don't know how every post-story bit became canon, but it seems to me that it's potentially limiting to fans who've expanded the universe for themselves but otherwise stick to canon as much as possible.

 

Like, let's pretend I got super invested in that random Voya Nui Matoran w/ the Mask of Aging (the most important dude, obv). Let's say I came up with their whole backstory, element, and decided that they were just wearing a deformed Hau that plays a huge role in their story. Then all of a sudden the main story's all like nah, that Matoran is actually wearing a Mask of Aging. I doubt I'd get mad or anything, but it'd kind of bug me. I mean I put in all this time coming up with a story for this Matoran and then someone else's headcanon basically comes in and trumps mine, y'know? It's one thing for someone to say, "actually in my version of things they've got this new mask I came up with," but instead it's now official. That Matoran has that mask as mandated by GregF (not to say you should take everything he says super seriously, but still), and the only thing I can do is ignore it.

 

It's an extreme example I guess, but still, I get the impression that maybe these things are best left to the individual. Or groups. I remember in my lurker days there was like a group of BZPers who spun off their own stories from the main one and voted on what the group would accept into their overall canon. Maybe that's a better approach than asking GregF to make things canon? Or at least go through the voting thing (I've seen a couple polls in this forum for stuff like this, so maybe this should be the new standard rather than just going to GregF and asking him if such-and-such can be canon).

Edited December 6, 2014 by Quasar

[Pomegranate]

Yeah, another issue that I don't think was really explained is that rather than pinching Greg for answers, it's more about bringing him things to stamp with the "canon" seal of approval. It doesn't even feel like real canon, it wasn't something that would've ever been in the story except by Greg saying someone else's idea is acceptable, and it's just not the same. I don't once remember a time when someone asked a question and Greg came up with an explanation involving new characters or elements or events or new ways that things work, it's always some random fan's ideas ascending. Why would anyone be really invested and interested in that? I mean, I understand how and why, but to the rest of us it seems very unnecessary, more a "for glory" thing like was said on the previous page, and not an actual expansion of the world and story as would be respected if the actual writer presented it. It can feel like everyone is getting away with tarnishing the story and claiming it for themselves and convoluting it, ya know? 

There's only so far you can go with pushing fanon before you have to wonder what the point is.

[bonesiii]

I'd really just like to address one of my biggest issues with those trying to defend these actions:

 

If I do not like what is being done, NO I CANNOT JUST IGNORE IT!

Bolding is mine.

 

I presume you don't mean this literally, and you meant "not agree with", rather than "not like."

 

Yes?

 

If so, then you're clearly misunderstanding, because I'm only talking about matters of taste, not identifiable, legitimate issues like the plausibility problem with Toa Cordak.

 

Sorry that's all I've got time to say right now, though.

 

 

Edit: Oh, okay... I'm seeing some borderline problematic posts, and some points that probably should be answered ASAP to avoid the risk of more problems if they aren't answered soon... so I'll put on my moderator hat... just a little () and insist on taking some extra time...

 

 

 

he wouldn't be likely to throw in a bunch of meaningless garbage because people want him to

 

Again it needs to be asked if you're confining this to the legitimate mistakes (let Toa Cordak ever be the rallying cry for this point LOL)... because I'm talking about the complaints that are based on personal tastes. In those cases, "meaningless garbage" is clearly in the eye of the beholder.

 

And there are demonstrable examples here -- the weapon a character will hold, for example, or their appearance (or every single detail about the setting lol). Tolkien would include those things, with extensive notes beyond just in-story revelations. But that is the kind of thing some are complaining about now, like the current mask poll.

 

He also established entire side characters and their backstories that never made it into stories.

 

 

it leads to things like being talked down to 'cause you were wrong about something that you didn't know got canonized

 

You're going to get a few people who do that for worldbuilding stories, yes. But should we throw out the baby with the bathwater? You can ignore them too, or point out the folly of that. (Preferably politely. )

 

But I've been watching story discussion here for a decade, and even just in this topic, it's obvious that it's usually the other way around. Usually (not always) the fans of the worldbuilding seem fairly jovial, probably because their tastes are being pleased in part, but it's those who happen to have tastes against it who seem to want to talk down to us, and frankly seem to think that all normal decorum goes out the window and it's okay to borderline troll. (No offense, guys, but it needs said that we do notice how you're behaving...)

 

So, if worldbuilding of that level/type is wrong because of some talking down happening, then is complaining about it also wrong because some of the complainers (not all!) talk down to others too?

 

 

agreed here, i've been told off multiple occasions by certain members for not knowing something that was "common knowledge*"

 

But RL, you have a tendency in many of your recent posts to be combative. If you start out intending to rile people up, do not be surprised when it works, even just a little. You often miss that if you had talked about the exact same ideas but in a polite, friendly, constructive manner, you would get an entirely different reaction. And in my experience, usually you get that said to you when you have acted condescending in claiming that a misconception was in fact the fact, as if it was indisputable. That can make "actually, this is common knowledge" an appropriate response. But you could have learned about this in a much more pleasant way by being pleasant yourself in the first place.

 

The world is often like that (not always, sadly). While putting good in doesn't always get you good out, it's also true that if you put bad in, you're pretty much always going to get bad out.

 

 

All these little bits of "canonization" that has been going on lately on the Lego Message Boards, I myself, will not consider them to be canon in anyway due to Greg mostly "canonizing" them officially just by simply saying "sure" or "okay". Maybe one day he'll probably just answer some other kids request to canonize something by just saying "mhm". It just doesn't feel real to me. It doesn't feel like a definite answer of "Yeah lets canonize this because it will be important and possibly lead to something great in the story." Atleast thats the way I look at it.

 

This idea has been brought up before, and somebody else wrote up a really good answer to it (I think I added some points). I really don't have time to dig it up or retype the whole idea, but basically people who don't follow the LMB regularly (which is okay, but read on) often only see the handful of times when Greg slips up, and miss the thousands of times where he pours way more thought into it than any of you likely ever will (not an insult -- it's his job!), and nobody notices because it's not a problem.

 

(The part to read on to -- while it's obviously completely okay not to follow the more in-depth stuff; that's purely a matter of taste... at the same time, if that's your choice, then please don't act as if you DO know what is the case. Know your own limits, yanno? Don't judge when you don't have the facts... doesn't mean you are under an obligation to dig them all up on this, since it's just entertainment; if it's not fun for you, okay. But it does mean that if you don't have them, don't judge!)

 

 

I mean, isn't that literally what fanfic is for?

 

Now that's the most important subject to this topic. I'm surprised it took this long for it to come up (or maybe me to notice it lol). Unfortunately I really am out of time. Suffice to say, it's been discussed before, about the community aspect of a canon!

Edited December 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

agreed here, i've been told off multiple occasions by certain members for not knowing something that was "common knowledge*"

 

But RL, you have a tendency in many of your recent posts to be combative. If you start out intending to rile people up, do not be surprised when it works, even just a little. You often miss that if you had talked about the exact same ideas but in a polite, friendly, constructive manner, you would get an entirely different reaction. And in my experience, usually you get that said to you when you have acted condescending in claiming that a misconception was in fact the fact, as if it was indisputable. That can make "actually, this is common knowledge" an appropriate response. But you could have learned about this in a much more pleasant way by being pleasant yourself in the first place.

 

The world is often like that (not always, sadly). While putting good in doesn't always get you good out, it's also true that if you put bad in, you're pretty much always going to get bad out.

 

 

i don't intend to rile up conflict i intend to avoid it almost all the time. :0

 

and-

 

I never once said a misconception was fact? I'm just an example of an "average bionicle fan" with little to no access to the sprawling disorganised heap this franchise calls media.

 

How am i supposed to know what the "mask of healing*" is? (and don't say check bs01, because i wouldn't go looking for something i didn't know existed)

 

*this is an example, i don't actually care what it is

[fishers64]

I'm not saying it's bad necessarily, it's just... odd. These seem like bits of headcanon that would be neat details in someone's own story, but again I ask, why do they have to be, like, GregF certified or something?

Note the original question to this topic. So far I haven't heard a good answer for this, other than the standard "because I can and I want to lol."

 

I like to think it is because having it approved ostensibly makes it so the writer of Bionicle approves of your logic behind your story. That makes it easier to write it a sense - it's easier to be confident in your logic if someone else agrees with you on it, especially if that person is considered a "expert".

 

The problem tends to be the impression, at this point, that Greg has forgotten some of the old story, and now people are questioning how reliable an authority on the old story he is. He's no longer an "expert" anymore, and it's kind of starting to show. Both in the "Toa Cordak" matter and the "moons" argument. Then people push the blame onto the LMB question-askers for drawing out logically implausible answers or just answers they don't like or both. Then the whole trend gets a bad name.  As I've said previously, I'd like to see that thing shut down. If we can't get reliable information out of it, what good is it?

 

This has been going on for many, many years, basically ever since Greg started directly interacting with the fan community on a regular basis- so, more or less, for a good 10 years straight, with a little break in the middle for his family. The fans like to fill in every little gap, and at this point it's just to have something new and keep the story alive, I guess. It's really not a new trend, and it's never really been a particularly popular one with everyone.

I think this person brings up a good point - this has been going along for ten years. People sound like its a new thing here - it's not. What changed is the "quality" of the canonizations. Hence the backlash. 

 

I'd really just like to address one of my biggest issues with those trying to defend these actions:

 

If I do not like what is being done, NO I CANNOT JUST IGNORE IT!

I don't think that something you don't like is a thing to ignore. If you don't like something, you should pay attention to the fact that you don't like it - is it just taste or is there a reason?

 

Because there will always, always be somebody there to "correct" you over something you didn't know got canonized or don't like canonized. And it won't matter that you "chose" not to. Nevermind that you really can't just "choose" not to accept something that is fact...  As an example, I am very passionate about the old Star Wars Expanded Universe. But it's not canon now and I can't just choose to believe it is (as much as I would like to, and I really very much would), because going forward everything will be based on the fact that it's not and doesn't matter. It's a flipped scenario here, but still similar. Because to everyone else it is real and that's all that matters. You will always have to deal with being "wrong."

 

What has been happening here lately IS literally just writing fanfiction and pushing it forward. Go write your stories and enjoy that - the fun wouldn't be any different. But doing it with the canonization agenda shouldn't be happening.

 

~|ET|~

Only in yonder forum. But nobody here is going to defend a forgetcon or a canonization that doesn't make any sense with established canon, ET. There are a few rules in S&T that go beyond canon - rule #1 is that canon needs to make sense with itself. If Greg stopped giving coherent answers that didn't seem to make sense and were basically gibberish, we wouldn't call them canon. We're sensible human beings.

 

I hope.  

[Dorek]

So much good discussion! This is more what I wanted my topic to be =P.

Only in yonder forum. But nobody here is going to defend a forgetcon or a canonization that doesn't make any sense with established canon, ET. There are a few rules in S&T that go beyond canon - rule #1 is that canon needs to make sense with itself. If Greg stopped giving coherent answers that didn't seem to make sense and were basically gibberish, we wouldn't call them canon. We're sensible human beings.

 

I hope.  

Well, the problem is there's a lot of grey area. For instance (in what I call "established non-canon") is something Greg previously ruled out for whatever reason that he hasn't remembered he ruled out still fair game if he brings it back into play? The answer is probably "depends", but there you have it.

 

And in a much more topical example, there's the Toa Mangai Kanohi poll. Greg ruled out the Mask of Rahi Creation because he thinks it would make the battle too short; I disagree with that, since we have a very similar example of Toa with said mask against the Kanohi Dragon where the MoRC is apparently ineffective. As far as I can tell, this was never brought up, and because it's apparently "full speed ahead" there's a poll result I terribly disagree with but have no recourse for, and the "canon" result has since been recorded.

 

The system we have here isn't perfect, even if we are all (mostly) intelligent human beings. That's where the issues come from.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

Because there will always, always be somebody there to "correct" you over something you didn't know got canonized or don't like canonized. And it won't matter that you "chose" not to. Nevermind that you really can't just "choose" not to accept something that is fact...  As an example, I am very passionate about the old Star Wars Expanded Universe. But it's not canon now and I can't just choose to believe it is (as much as I would like to, and I really very much would), because going forward everything will be based on the fact that it's not and doesn't matter. It's a flipped scenario here, but still similar. Because to everyone else it is real and that's all that matters. You will always have to deal with being "wrong."

 

What has been happening here lately IS literally just writing fanfiction and pushing it forward. Go write your stories and enjoy that - the fun wouldn't be any different. But doing it with the canonization agenda shouldn't be happening.

 

~|ET|~

Only in yonder forum. But nobody here is going to defend a forgetcon or a canonization that doesn't make any sense with established canon, ET. There are a few rules in S&T that go beyond canon - rule #1 is that canon needs to make sense with itself. If Greg stopped giving coherent answers that didn't seem to make sense and were basically gibberish, we wouldn't call them canon. We're sensible human beings.

 

I hope.  

 

 

Pretty sure greg started being unreliable sometime in 2009 or so.

[Dorek]

(reposted from the other topic because I feel it needs to be said at least twice)

 

Also I just want to say (because I know Greg has read these before, even if he can't comment) that I hope he doesn't take anything negative away from this; I would never want him to stop answering questions, and I think the fact that he cares enough to interact with the fans years after BIONICLE ended is absolutely brilliant. We're a strange, fickle, and oft cantankerous bunch, but we're all bound by the love of BIONICLE, even if we express that in different ways.

[fishers64]

Do you have any evidence that Greg became unreliable in 2009, Lalonde?

 

And in a much more topical example, there's the Toa Mangai Kanohi poll. Greg ruled out the Mask of Rahi Creation because he thinks it would make the battle too short; I disagree with that, since we have a very similar example of Toa with said mask against the Kanohi Dragon where the MoRC is apparently ineffective. As far as I can tell, this was never brought up, and because it's apparently "full speed ahead" there's a poll result I terribly disagree with but have no recourse for, and the "canon" result has since been recorded.

The system we have here isn't perfect, even if we are all (mostly) intelligent human beings. That's where the issues come from.

We can't expect perfection. And what's with the (mostly) lol?

 

IIRC, it was Kualus who used the MoRC against the Kanohi Dragon to limited effect. I'm open to hunting down that quote (and if someone hasn't done that already) presenting that case to Greg; I do have a rarely used LMB account. 

 

I think that it would make more sense for the Bo-Matoran to have a Mask of Healing instead of Rahi Control, however; it just makes more sense with his element. Presenting the case could ensure that it's an option for the other 9 or so masks though. 

 

If it's already been done and nerfed, there's nothing I can say - that would be an issue between you and Greg, not between you and the canonization-happy people. 

[bonesiii]

How am i supposed to know what the "mask of healing*" is?

Here's the issue -- why do you make it a burden?

 

To me, as a fan of worldbuilding, I see new things on the horizon as something to look forward to learning. Negativity shouldn't be part of it (at least not when legitimate constructive criticism doesn't come into it... there's more to that but my point is, on examples like this, with a power that makes obvious sense in the world, and it's just that you don't know it yet).

 

If I'm not into a story, it doesn't annoy me that I don't know its details. If I am partially into it, I just see it as something possibly to look forward to, and in the meantime, patience (like Star Wars -- I know barely anything of the Expanded Universe, but none of that annoys me; if I ever have time and my tastes reach a point in the change that tastes naturally go through in human lives, and I have time, I may turn to learning about it more ).

 

Why see it as "have" to know?

 

 

A few other points re: previous discussion.

 

This is LEGO. ALL lines from LEGO used to be virtually nothing but worldbuilding.

 

The story was an addition.

 

 

Also, Tolkien actually included a lot of worldbuilding right in the stories, at least in LotR and Silmarillion (not so much in the Hobbit, but a fair amount). In the book version of the open of LotR, almost nothing seriously bad happens for a long time, and he explains detail after detail of a peaceful folk preparing for a party. Seriously, think about it.

 

And if you think because he did it in such an endearing way delivered in-story versus a reference source on the side (though he had those too), that nobody ever complains about it, think again. I've met people often who do.

 

 

We also need to keep in mind that Tolkien wasn't writing for a toyline. The comparison needs to be adjusted for that; a somewhat silly "this guy has this cool mask and this cool weapon" actually appeals to kids in the target age. Admittedly, this is a bit trickier to understand for Gen1, since no original fan of 2001 is in that age -- however, the story is still designed to appeal to new kids even if they come at it late and it no longer sells current toys (just advertises in a general sense for LEGO... and now for Bionicle's return). While it's obvious that "cool mask" isn't as sophisticated as things in stories can be, that isn't always a bad thing.

Edited December 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[Dorek]

 

And in a much more topical example, there's the Toa Mangai Kanohi poll. Greg ruled out the Mask of Rahi Creation because he thinks it would make the battle too short; I disagree with that, since we have a very similar example of Toa with said mask against the Kanohi Dragon where the MoRC is apparently ineffective. As far as I can tell, this was never brought up, and because it's apparently "full speed ahead" there's a poll result I terribly disagree with but have no recourse for, and the "canon" result has since been recorded.

 

The system we have here isn't perfect, even if we are all (mostly) intelligent human beings. That's where the issues come from.

We can't expect perfection. And what's with the (mostly) lol?

 

Oh, I was just being snarky there =P. I mean, statistically speaking, somebody's not intelligent :U

 

IIRC, it was Kualus who used the MoRC against the Kanohi Dragon to limited effect. I'm open to hunting down that quote (and if someone hasn't done that already) presenting that case to Greg; I do have a rarely used LMB account.

Well, technically he never uses it at all, likely because it hadn't been decided as his mask at the time. That said, since this is all pulling details out of nothing as it is, that still needs to count for something.

 

I think that it would make more sense for the Bo-Matoran to have a Mask of Healing instead of Rahi Control, however; it just makes more sense with his element. Presenting the case could ensure that it's an option for the other 9 or so masks though.

Mostly a debate for the topic itself =P. I'm not opposed to the Mask of Healing (although I always thought the canonization of THAT mask itself was a little ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there) just that overall things aren't being given a fair shake.

 

If it's already been done and nerfed, there's nothing I can say - that would be an issue between you and Greg, not between you and the canonization-happy people.

Well, there's two issues in that; one is that I don't use an LMB account (I have one, technically, but it's not really something I use, so for the sake of the argument, let's say I don't have one at all), as I'm sure many people also don't. There's certain problems with a relatively fragmented userbase that can't be solved, and I'd say this is one of them.

 

Secondly, if a poll is conducted improperly here, on BZP, by users, that is absolutely an issue between me and those users, not between Greg and myself. It is their responsibility to make sure everything is done without issue, and if they cannot hack that, then the fault is theirs. The fact that it then gets taken to a place I have no access to (issue one) only further compounds the issue.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Why see it as "have" to know?

 

because people like you act as if details like this are a must-know to understand Bionicle? :0

[Mjolnitor]

I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of how fans are "multiplying setting issues". If anything, they're being eliminated.

Whoever proposed gravity and plasma as full-fledged elements, with their own matoran and such.

 

And if that were not fans, but Greg himself, it's even worse.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Mjolnitor

[Archon~]

 

 

I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of how fans are "multiplying setting issues". If anything, they're being eliminated.

Whoever proposed gravity and plasma as full-fledged elements, with their own matoran and such.

 

And if that were not fans, but Greg himself, it's even worse.

I was talking more about canonizations that occured after the series ended. Back then, adding elements was praised, and I believe it started in 2005, but I forgot who initiated it.

 

And honestly, a lot of what I'm seeing on this topic is quite frankly just people whinning. Whinning, because something they don't like is getting canonized, or even worse due to hypocrisy, that something they do like isn't getting added to canon.

[Mjolnitor]

And honestly, a lot of what I'm seeing on this topic is quite frankly just people whinning. Whinning, because something they don't like is getting canonized, or even worse due to hypocrisy, that something they do like isn't getting added to canon.

 

And what I'm seeing in this thread is people thinking that their opinion on what the setting should be and what they can present to Greg for canonizations is superior, and those who do not agree shouldn't discourage them from having fun.

 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Mjolnitor

[bonesiii]

Why see it as "have" to know?

 

because people like you act as if details like this are a must-know to understand Bionicle? :0

No we don't (or I don't, and if others do, go back to the baby-bathwater point -- you'll run into people who make mistakes, but why take down canonization itself -- don't you realize there are mistakes associated with that too?). I just spent two posts trying to get across to you why you shouldn't see any of it as "must-know"!

 

This is what's called a strawman fallacy, RL.

 

Whoever proposed gravity and plasma as full-fledged elements, with their own matoran and such.

 

And if that were not fans, but Greg himself, it's even worse.

About plasma, see here:

 

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/15828-bionicle-generation-1-misconceptions/?p=786686

 

For Gravity, I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting it's a problem to have it as an element. It is a major force of nature.

 

 

And what I'm seeing in this thread is people thinking that their opinion on what the setting should be and what they can present to Greg for canonizations is superior, and those who do not agree shouldn't discourage them from having fun.

Okay, a few things.

 

1) Can we please stop being antagonistic? Archon, your post itself got a little bit that. I know it's easy to do when some others are constantly throwing that at you, but -- and this lesson goes for ALL -- our message is impacted by our behavior. To me I think both sides have some good points, but they often ruin it by being antagonistic. What yall need to realize is that the way humans are, generally, if you put antagonism into a discussion, not only does it NOT help you convince others of your good points, it actually can "solidify" their stubbornness to their own side. Both sides (multiple sides) need to actively avoid this trap. But if Greg, and others reading along, see one side almost exclusively behaving poorly, that is likely to reflect poorly on that side's conclusion. All of you need to keep this in mind.

 

2) Of course, both sides need to remember to keep personal taste out of it when talking about what is better than other things.

 

3) Yet, in terms of story plausibility and fulfilling the ideal role of a worldbuilding story, Mjol, wouldn't you agree there should be some standards and that some proposals will be more "superior" (as in make more sense) than others? We need to have some way to tell the difference between the views saying we shouldn't do something, and those saying we should. Your wording here would suggest that it all comes down to subjective taste, apparently (in which case none are superior, but then why push the issue? That very logic contradicts itself, as if it's really subjective you shouldn't mind that somebody else is getting something that's fun for them -- it seems to me you are indeed implying there's some objective issue with some things... and I agree, but then why act like it's okay for you to think your view is better, but object to us thinking ours is?)

 

4) And for the canonizations (and, BTW, the LEGO-only canon; the distinction is almost entirely artificial!) that I support, there is clearly good reasoning behind them. Some seem intent on ignoring it for some reason, but if their view is actually right, they shouldn't ignore them; they should engage with those points and show why their reasoning is better.

 

If they can't show better reasoning as to why those things shouldn't be done -- and have it withstand critical analysis -- then yes, they should allow the others to have their fun, same reason you don't take down all other fiction that isn't aimed at your own personal tastes!

 

5) Also, do all of you agree that it's good that others have different tastes than you? This may seem off-topic, but I often get a vibe of a lack of appreciation of this from people who behave in ways like this. (Again I'm not talking about the legitimate complaints like about Toa Cordak here.) Re: "society variety" theory and the like. Or do you actually think your personal taste is better than ours?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

Why see it as "have" to know?

 

because people like you act as if details like this are a must-know to understand Bionicle? :0

No we don't (or I don't, and if others do, go back to the baby-bathwater point -- you'll run into people who make mistakes, but why take down canonization itself -- don't you realize there are mistakes associated with that too?). I just spent two posts trying to get across to you why you shouldn't see any of it as "must-know"!

 

This is what's called a strawman fallacy, RL.

 

Okay then thanks for the tip, next time you bring up a bionicle resource i didn't know about before, i'll just ignore it because i "didn't need to know", :u

[Banana Gunz]

I do agree that in some cases it was excessive and really pretty pointless, but in the case of the extended list of masks, I think they're really cool and having more masks in the story is always good, at least for head canon stories if not the actual.

 

The case of the Toa Mangai... well there always was a curiosity about them, so honestly I don't mind too much but I do agree fans can take things a little far. The problem is that at this point, the fans are the ones making the Gen 1 story. They're not necessarily expanding it, but they're making it more specific and full with their own personal ideas that Greg chooses to canonize. They're not always bad ideas, but I wonder how much Greg actually thinks of them. He's said many times how Bionicle has changed his life, but I wonder how much he is still into it right now, considering how much better it is for him to work on Gen 2 or the other story based themes. I feel that he feels the fans deserve to make what's left of Bionicle their own, and that's not all bad. I simply feel that that is what head canon is for, but I can't say I'm complaining too much, as it doesn't really affect the main story.

[Regitnui]

Rahkshi, Did you read Bones' post?

 

I can certainly agree that different viewpoints are the spice of a discussion, but what seems to be the problem here is people trying to decide what viewpoint is valid without acknowledging the positive points of the other view.

 

Yes, I like getting little titbits. But we have a wonderful opportunity here to get some conclusion for Gen1. Why are we using this opportunity to fill in the little blank spots on the canvas when we can try finish the picture as a whole?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Rahkshi, Did you read Bones' post?

 

I can certainly agree that different viewpoints are the spice of a discussion, but what seems to be the problem here is people trying to decide what viewpoint is valid without acknowledging the positive points of the other view.

 

Yes, I like getting little titbits. But we have a wonderful opportunity here to get some conclusion for Gen1. Why are we using this opportunity to fill in the little blank spots on the canvas when we can try finish the picture as a whole?

 

I read Bones's post, yes. did it make sense? that's irrelevant.

 

(also i saw mention of the extended mask list and that reminded me we still have no idea what these look like most of the time, which is a pretty important part of the mask to know about...)

[Regitnui]

 

 

Rahkshi, Did you read Bones' post?

 

I can certainly agree that different viewpoints are the spice of a discussion, but what seems to be the problem here is people trying to decide what viewpoint is valid without acknowledging the positive points of the other view.

 

Yes, I like getting little titbits. But we have a wonderful opportunity here to get some conclusion for Gen1. Why are we using this opportunity to fill in the little blank spots on the canvas when we can try finish the picture as a whole?

I read Bones's post, yes. did it make sense? that's irrelevant.

He made perfect sense, asking people to be less antagonistic. The first thing you post after? Dripping sarcasm. Sarcasm is never a valid debating tool. I don't pretend to know your mind, or follow the conversation's every nuance, but asking for calm in the debate seems pretty clear to me.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

Rahkshi, Did you read Bones' post?

 

I can certainly agree that different viewpoints are the spice of a discussion, but what seems to be the problem here is people trying to decide what viewpoint is valid without acknowledging the positive points of the other view.

 

Yes, I like getting little titbits. But we have a wonderful opportunity here to get some conclusion for Gen1. Why are we using this opportunity to fill in the little blank spots on the canvas when we can try finish the picture as a whole?

I read Bones's post, yes. did it make sense? that's irrelevant.

He made perfect sense, asking people to be less antagonistic. The first thing you post after? Dripping sarcasm. Sarcasm is never a valid debating tool. I don't pretend to know your mind, or follow the conversation's every nuance, but asking for calm in the debate seems pretty clear to me.

 

 

okay, that came out wrong, i see.

 

i honestly did not intend sarcasm there, i mostly don't intend sarcasm, i am just really really bad at debating.

 

Do i dislike the idea of "canonizing"? yes. Do i act antagonistic about it? Not intentionally, no. :0

[Regitnui]

Then, as Bonesiii says, watch your word choice, my friend. Think twice about what you write, because this isn't face-to-face and you don't have to type the first thing that comes into your head.

[Banana Gunz]

 

*snip*

(also i saw mention of the extended mask list and that reminded me we still have no idea what these look like most of the time, which is a pretty important part of the mask to know about...)

 

 

We do know what they look like, from the comics at least. I do definitely see your point though that we didn't even get good pictures of the masks, which is pretty important to me. I know Bonesii's extended universe topic has good fan art images of those masks (along with some other cool mask ideas and designs). I feel that we should've gotten better images of those masks, but it's not the end of the world...

[believe victims]

(and, BTW, the LEGO-only canon; the distinction is almost entirely artificial!)

 

No, it's not. A bunch of children typing "can this Toa have the Mask of Uselessness?" at an author until he gives a non-commital shrug is different from the story team who knows the universe and story they're trying to create purposefully and meaningfully deciding something.

[fishers64]

 

IIRC, it was Kualus who used the MoRC against the Kanohi Dragon to limited effect. I'm open to hunting down that quote (and if someone hasn't done that already) presenting that case to Greg; I do have a rarely used LMB account.

Well, technically he never uses it at all, likely because it hadn't been decided as his mask at the time. That said, since this is all pulling details out of nothing as it is, that still needs to count for something. 

 Yes, but the Hagah's battle with the Kanohi Dragon didn't last for a month. That would need to be taken into account, would it not?

 

 

 

If it's already been done and nerfed, there's nothing I can say - that would be an issue between you and Greg, not between you and the canonization-happy people.

Well, there's two issues in that; one is that I don't use an LMB account (I have one, technically, but it's not really something I use, so for the sake of the argument, let's say I don't have one at all), as I'm sure many people also don't. There's certain problems with a relatively fragmented userbase that can't be solved, and I'd say this is one of them.

 

Secondly, if a poll is conducted improperly here, on BZP, by users, that is absolutely an issue between me and those users, not between Greg and myself. It is their responsibility to make sure everything is done without issue, and if they cannot hack that, then the fault is theirs. The fact that it then gets taken to a place I have no access to (issue one) only further compounds the issue.

 

I'll admit to not following the LMB much these days; I don't know the LMB posts that inspired Boidoh to yank the polling option out. All the same, perhaps a bit more courtesy (and time, particularly) in allowing members to express their views on a subject would be welcome. 

 

 

(Of course, then you get members complaining that leaving the Mask of Rahi Control on the poll, it's deceptive because people would be voting for something that couldn't be canonized anyway and consequently feeling gypped. There's just no way to win.)

 

* * *

 

Also, one last note - I still think that this is a highly preference-based debate. There seems very little logical basis for these canonizations - but there is very little logical basis against it either. In theory, this debate could go on forever as a result...

[Boidoh]

Tell me how I can make the future polls on Kanohi any better. Instead of arguing about the past, look to the future. Maybe with suggestions I will stop being vilified so much here on BZP.

[Dorek]

 

 

IIRC, it was Kualus who used the MoRC against the Kanohi Dragon to limited effect. I'm open to hunting down that quote (and if someone hasn't done that already) presenting that case to Greg; I do have a rarely used LMB account.

Well, technically he never uses it at all, likely because it hadn't been decided as his mask at the time. That said, since this is all pulling details out of nothing as it is, that still needs to count for something. 

 

Yes, but the Hagah's battle with the Kanohi Dragon didn't last for a month. That would need to be taken into account, would it not?

 

For sure, although the exact amount of time is unspecified; it's implied to be lengthy battle, but they had one more Rahi to deal with, and less people to deal with it. Maybe that's a reason for having it in or not having it in; maybe it was used in the background, or conversely, maybe the Mask of Growth is just OP. There are lots of complexities to the scenario, but there was no acknowledgement of said complexities, and more importantly, there was no follow-up on them, which there should have been.

 

Again, I'm not saying that Healing is a bad option, or that people were wrong to vote for it. I just don't think that all of the facts were aligned when certain poll options were taken out, which subsequently invalidated people's votes and sent the topic spiraling into a completely different direction, which would seem to me solid grounds for a do-over.

 

Tell me how I can make the future polls on Kanohi any better. Instead of arguing about the past, look to the future. Maybe with suggestions I will stop being vilified so much here on BZP.

You can make future polls better by acknowledging the mistakes you have made in the past, for a start. Nobody is vilifying you or even trying to vilify you, but ignoring those mistakes doesn't leave any room for growth. Edited December 6, 2014 by Dorek

[bonesiii]

 

bonesiii, on 06 Dec 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

(and, BTW, the LEGO-only canon; the distinction is almost entirely artificial!)

 

No, it's not.

 

Yes it is. Most of the same arguments used against fan canonizations should logically apply to LEGO's productions. (And sometimes are used, of course.) And most of the same answers to the mistakes in those arguments are used.

 

My point is that this is really a distraction. It shouldn't be "to have fan interaction or not", it should be a productive discussion on guidelines/"rules" to follow in it, and make sure it is up to standards. Because "fans have input or not?" has already been explored in countless past topics and the logic of the debate always comes out the same when we examine every angle. The right answer to this is already know -- yes, within reason. Having to go through that over and over (although expected as obviously not everybody followed past discussions) does have a downside of taking away emphasis from making sure that "within reason" part is done right.

 

And I think a lot of the trigger-happy canonizations in fact happened as a reaction against the antagonism to any and all canonization. Being combative doesn't change minds -- it only makes your opposition more likely to do "so there" type things, and make it all worse. (The blame for this lies on both sides.)

 

A bunch of children typing "can this Toa have the Mask of Uselessness?" at an author until he gives a non-commital shrug

I've addressed this before. Suffice to say, this is what I often call "mocking tone" fallacy. It falls apart for two reasons:

 

1) Like any fallacy, it can work both ways. Canon made by LEGO can also be described in a mocking tone (and has been).

 

2) It can also be rephrased in a positive way. (Note first that the idea of "useless" masks has been addressed before too. Suffice to say, you would have to first back this up in each case. It seems obvious that powers that are useless are not approved, and also easy to think of uses for the ones that are there, but that's a tangent we've had plenty of whole topics for.) You can say that fans who have followed the story for a long time and know a lot, and/or who have a strong interest in it (thus a good handle on what those tastes entail) provide a perspective that LEGO happened to miss, but recognizes as consistent with the same goals they set out to do when they made their contributions on their own to the canon.

 

is different from the story team who knows the universe

But:

 

1) Many fans DO know the universe.

 

2) Greg, the one approving it, also knows the universe. (And he can reject bad ideas and accept good ones even from fans who DON'T know it well.)

 

Obviously due to human nature there will be forgetting and failings, for all. But even with Greg's failings it must be remembered that he has forgotten more about Bionicle than most of us will ever know.

 

they're trying to create purposefully and meaningfully deciding something.

Which, again, works both ways!

 

Why are we using this opportunity to fill in the little blank spots on the canvas when we can try finish the picture as a whole?

Greg has already given good reasons why an actual story continuation for Gen1 will (almost certainly) not be done. And keep in mind when he answered a lot of questions about what he had in mind to do next, people complained about that too. But personally, he can do both.

 

okay, that came out wrong, i see.

 

i honestly did not intend sarcasm there, i mostly don't intend sarcasm, i am just really really bad at debating.

Thank you for saying that. Honestly, the best way to be good at debates is to be humble like this, at every opportunity you can think of. It isn't even so much about having superior/sound logic (although only that decides truth of course), it's about fighting the temptation of pride. And I get it -- I've been there. Took me time to learn to be better, you know?

[Archon~]

Tell me how I can make the future polls on Kanohi any better. Instead of arguing about the past, look to the future. Maybe with suggestions I will stop being vilified so much here on BZP.

I gave you an idea for that on the current poll that's going on for what you can do for the future. And I strongly think you should shoot bonesiii a pm or something trying to establish the most effective way of organizing the polls for the rest if the Mangai's Kanohi, since that won't be a small task at all. Primarily, when we do that, I think a poll to determine who wore the Kakama should be determined first.

[fishers64]

Tell me how I can make the future polls on Kanohi any better. Instead of arguing about the past, look to the future. Maybe with suggestions I will stop being vilified so much here on BZP.

Let all the information on a particular option for something come out. Let us talk about the options before removing things out of the poll. Sometimes things take a little time to work out the details and nuances.

 

And trust me, nobody here is vilifying you. I thought that I was being vilified in previous times on BZPower by certain members, when it turned out they were just taking issue with some of my points. Being criticized for something not adding up right isn't the same as being vilified. 

[Boidoh]

So all I need to do is just don't remove options...

[Archon~]

Not necessarily, just learn to be patient. Things like these should be well discussed before any big decisions are made to satisfy most of the fans. Sit back, relax, discuss, give it time.

[fishers64]

So all I need to do is just don't remove options...

No, if a bunch of people (like all of us) are clamoring for its removal, then it should be removed. But give at least a few hours after the first few posts come up before dashing off to PM Greg and quickly stripping the option out of the poll.

Not necessarily, just learn to be patient. Things like these should be well discussed before any big decisions are made to satisfy most of the fans. Sit back, relax, discuss, give it time.

What the man said. Edited December 6, 2014 by fishers64

[Boidoh]

A bunch of people begged for the Green to be removed, because it was "a non-sensical option", but did I do it? No. Does that make me a bad person, because I didn't listen to the members of community?

[fishers64]

A bunch of people begged for the Green to be removed, because it was "a non-sensical option", but did I do it? No. Does that make me a bad person, because I didn't listen to the members of community?

No, because we debated it out and figured out how it makes sense. It's not intuitive, but when we sorted it out, it made sense in the end. That was a success of this process, as opposed to the mask poll. 

 

Leave time for the objections and the reasoning against them to come out.

[Dorek]

And perhaps make a "pre-poll" of sorts so that these things can be discussed BEFOREHAND, which would save everybody a lot of headaches. Open up with "hey this is an idea, do people like it, if so, list reasons why you like it, if not, say why not".

 

Facts are facts and opinions are opinions. One needs to be established before the other can be intelligently and accurately ascertained.

[Mjolnitor]

 

For Gravity, I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting it's a problem to have it as an element. It is a major force of nature.

That's the problem.

Also, sci-fi vibe.

[Zidonaro]

Oh look at the can of worms I opened.

 

"Rampant canonization" is never gonna stop until the day Greg stops answering questions on LMB.

 

So ummm, no offense, but you look like one of those blind fans that even if Greg said "Flying real world pigs live in the skies of Metru Nui" were canon, you would be okay with it.