HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Which really has nothing to do with whether it can be sapient or not. It can be very good at running complex nonlinear equations quickly and still be about as sapient as a coffee cup. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrd Bid Ful Araed Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I find it hard to take anything seriously if its going to be measured in something as snigger-inducingly named as gigaflops. They can achieve sentience if they like, but I'm just going to be giggling at that behind their back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) Xom, I don't think you quite understand the concept behind chemical, biological, and quantum computers. Which is cool because I don't really either. However, my understanding is they don't perform equations the same way. You can't measure it by gigaflops, no more than you can measure the human brain by gigaflops. And yeah I know they've measured the brain with gigaflops, but measuring the brain with gigaflops is a terrible benchmarking tool because the brain simply doesn't work that way.Also I question the logic of photonics being less than electronics. Sure, electronics is tried and proven, but Moore's law will hault at some point; we're getting down to the nanometer manufacturing processes, experts can easily see us hitting the bare minimum (one atom) in a few decades. At which point it peaks out and simply can't go any faster without getting bigger. Photonics suffer similarly, except that you can do a lot more for a lot less power and space. @Rover; I'm thinking of adaptive programming here, which is basically summed up as "the machine learns." Which is entirely possible, once the techies around the world figure it out.@Power; hey now, don't diss the gigaflops man Edited September 20, 2012 by Void Prophet Alex Humva Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrd Bid Ful Araed Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) @Power; hey now, don't diss the gigaflops man *Sniggers* Edited September 20, 2012 by Lord of Adders Black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLuke Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 "Gigaflops". Quote BZPRPG Profiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 With the scale we're talking about though, it'd probably be better to use tera or petaflops. Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Vetinari Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Don't mock science! Gigaflops are awesome!Do not anger science! It will smite you with the power of Tesla! Quote I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLuke Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) ^^ Which still sound funny. Edited September 20, 2012 by BenLuke-116 Quote BZPRPG Profiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The fact that adaptive programming still hasn't been figured out kind of means that you can't say that it's definitely possible on a binary computer. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Yes, I can't say with absolute certainity that it's going to happen, but there's no laws of programming or mathematics saying it can't happen, and recent work with Apple' Siri, amongst many other projects of similar nature, and the NSA really wanting their hands on a computer that can learn, plus the whole cyberwarfare front (adaptive computer viruses would be absolute murder), I feel fairly confident it's going to happen by 2060. Definitely enough in the realm of this RPG. Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Flops=Fluid Operations Per Second. It's a real computing term.Anyway, I see no reasoning which would make a non-electronic computer any better at odd forms of thinking than an electronic computer. Computers are a series of logic gates. How you approach those logic gates doesn't matter. Like it showed in that one XKCD comic, you could make one with a grid of rocks. All computers perform the same functions, from the brass Analytical Engine to Watson to a Brain.That said, I'm going to allow AI in this. I see no reason why, in fifty years, humanity won't have been able to emulate a human brain; I'm currently emulating a Game Boy Color on my laptop. Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) Yes, but you're assuming the existance of logic gates in this alternative forms. If I understood that admittedly short speech correctly from a while back, quantum computers don't work that way. How they work is something far out of my league to explain, but I believe Wikipedia has some good information.And I most certainly know that the brain isn't a collection of organic logic gates, unless I'm just that much of a failure at biology. Edited September 20, 2012 by Void Prophet Alex Humva Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 ...really. Freaking really?A human brain is very much a different thing from a Game Boy. A Game Boy runs programs. Logic gates, the way computers use them, are used to run programs. You can't have true sapience with 1-0-based logic, because sapient thought is just so much more than that. The best route to go would be a chemical computer, because the easiest way to emulate a human brain is to emulate the way in which the human brain actually works - that is, with electrochemical signals, with thousands of possible combinations at the lowest level of functioning complexity.Basically, with your smarmy little Game Boy comment, you just completely voided your entire argument, which doesn't mean much, because Humva is absolutely right about the human brain not being all that similar to the logic gates employed in binary computing. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Upon some further research, yeah, I'd definitely say chemical computers are going to be my go-to choice for AI. My idea to begin with was a mainframe structure, but with this I might actually get portable robobrains. Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrd Bid Ful Araed Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Flops=Fluid Operations Per Second. It's a real computing term.A real hilarious computing term!Sorry, I'm not helping, am I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Oh look, as it so happens, electronic computers are not limited to 1-0 based logic. They can go as high as they like.Electronic computers are actually physically capable of simulating a human brain; it's just that at present times they don't have the memory or processor power for it. Fifty years from now? Definitely. Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) Also, it isn't fluid operations, it's floating. Floating-point operations per second. Edited September 20, 2012 by Void Prophet Alex Humva Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Vetinari Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The RPG planning topic. Nine times out of ten it ends up being a debate about physics or technology. There are entire websites dedicated to this. I'm proud that we've managed to confine it to RPing. Quote I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Now let's shift the topic back to RP development. AIs are allowed in the 2060 RPGRTS. Hooray. Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Yes yes, but as much as I want sapient AIs, it fills me with shame to think it's only because of a convenient dodging of science. Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Dodging of science nothing. The only thing stopping us from developing AIs today are limits on processor power and memory.Personally, I *despise* AIs in science-fiction. Nothing bugs me more. Despite that, I'm forced to acknowledge that the technology is coming. Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Xom, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you aren't a computer expert. The basis of computer 'thought' is binary code - anything else is done using manipulation of that, but it's that simple base code that's the problem.However, there is no rule saying that RPGs can't dodge science, so do whatever with the 2060 one. Opinions and stats have been provided on computers, but it's your RPG. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Humva Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I on the other hand welcome our future sentient (no I'm not swapping sentient and sapient interchangeably) robotic brethren, but I'm also a bit nutty when it comes to robots.So I've been pondering how to go about population in FoG; I think I'll have some sort of system tied into how rich farms are in a province, so when you start you can figure out how many people your nation could reasonably sustain based off of the food status. Fish should be interesting, as you will be able to claim water bits and pieces. Amazing what fish can do for your diet. Quote 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after." -Isaac Asimov, responding to a letter he had received saying that scientific certainty was false, The Relativity of Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLuke Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Yes yes, but as much as I want sapient AIs, it fills me with shame to think it's only because of a convenient dodging of science."If you wonder how he eats and breathes, and other science facts, you should tell youself, it's just a show and I should really just relax." Quote BZPRPG Profiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Vetinari Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) Some of us enjoy asking questions like that. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go outside and light a collection of high fantasy novels on fire and then dance around it chanting and reveling in the name of the Great God Logic. Edited September 20, 2012 by Basilisk Quote I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm working on the Industry system for S&V. Would you guys like to see Iron Ore and Aluminum Ore tracked as separate resources(since they're very different and found in different parts of the solar system) or combined into a single resource called Ore(since they're functionally very similar) ? Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Are iron and aluminum the only metals that will be tracked? Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Iron and Aluminum are the two most important metals, since they can be used for the best in-space construction material. Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Mmh.Since you're planning on using actual literal Space Elevators, I'm guessing this is going to be a very much soft sci-fi RPG? Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm talking Space Elevators as the scientific sense; a group of cables stretching from a high-up, near-equator point, all the way out to low orbit. The last fifty years have seen enough Material Science Advances to make them possible. Those Space Elevators are mostly a way to get your first few ships into space. Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Upon further research... Yeah, space elevators could conceivably work.Just hope the tether doesn't break, though. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Which is why they're made of extremely strong materials(entirely provided by the 2060s-level Material Science)I seem to remember an argument back in Interstellar Line where you were arguing in favor of a Space Elevator and I was arguing against one... Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Those materials (likely carbon nanotubes) aren't completely indestructible, and if the tether snaps, it's likely that millions of people on the planet below would die.I've been reading through IL lately, and I said and did some incredibly stupid things. Like having a direct democracy that doesn't just implode. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Vetinari Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Yeah. I did stupid stupid things in my early days. I don't talk about those much...and I unperson anyone else who does. Quote I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 We all did.Although one has to point out that not all the cable's mass would come crashing to Earth; a large portion of it would stay in orbit if the cable snapped.Anyway, so far I have Ore(possibly split into two), C.H.O.N., and Money for resources. What else do we need? Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Fissile materials should certainly be kept track of. Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 There really aren't that many. From what I've read, 90% of the fissile materials in the solar system are in Earth, and the other 10% are deep in the cores and mantles of Mars and Venus. Where would you get them? Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Vetinari Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Using the power of glorious communism to dig a hole in glorious red planet.Preferably with a giant Lenin-bot. :PJoking aside, that is a good point. Quote I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalSunshineSister Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Wait, so all of the resources on Earth are 100% accounted for? Quote We will remember - Skies may fade and stars may wane; we won't forget And your light shines bright - yes so much brighter shine on We will remember - Until the skies will fall we won't forget We will remember We all shall follow doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xomeron Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Of course transporting them up from Earth would be ridiculously expensive due to the fact that most fissile material stockpiles have been used up lately. The conversion of most of the world's nuclear weapons to nuclear power plants was one of the factors which allowed large-scale war in the 2030s and 40s, leading to the generally fractured situation of modern politics. Without the threat of nuclear annihilation to stay peoples' hands, war was a lot more common in the last half century than in the one before.Basically, there is Uranium on Earth; it's either been used up or is waiting to be used, and buying it would be rediculously expensive.Besides, a direct Hydrogen-fusion bomb would be simpler to make and cleaner. It's a spaceship drive without the Fusion Shield. Edited September 21, 2012 by Grapple Wizard Quote That being said, thag thag thaggity thag thagness.-Rover "A memo was sent to Astaria asking if it would at all be possible to make a flying goat.""The Astarians responded that making a goat fly would be trivial; making it land safely would be another matter entirely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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