Magma Swords

[T.B.O.C]

So, I was thinking about this, and really couldn't figure this out.Tahu's Magma swords are most likely made of some sort of metallic protodermis, as most armor/tools in the Mu are. But, most metals (in my knowledge) will melt in molten protodermis. Tahu's swords have been shown multiple times to be able to be in lava (not neccesarily molten protodermis, as it was on Mata Nui)So, what material is it made from? I wouldn't assume protosteel, as that can be melted, as weapons have been forged from that, so what are they made of?I did look on BS01, but there wasn't amazingly helpful material on the subject. So, does anyone know?

[Ektris]

Huh. That's actually a very good question.I would hazard a guess that when it would be used as a surfboard, he used his control over Fire and heat to somehow keep them cooled.~|ET|~

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Didn't the Ta-Matoran in Ta-Koro have surfboards that allowed them to surf over the lava? Maybe Tahu's Magma Swords were made in a mixure with a similar material of those boards and metallic photodermis.

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

Perhaps it is still protodermis, but with some other metallic element mixed in to raise its melting point.

[Taipu1]

Matoran/Toa of Fire have heat resistance, and perhaps that can somehow stretch to Tahu's tools. Whether it's a conscious thing hes doing, I'm not sure.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Energized Protodermis does some crazy things. Pretty sure it altered the tools of the Toa Nuva so that they are much more resistant to heat and cold than any normal tool could be.

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

Huh... I have an idea.A few years ago I asked this question to Greg:

Are there alloys of Protodermis besides Protosteel? Like armor is made out of one while weapons are made out of another?-Ladon

Yes

I would imagine that whatever kind of metal Tahu Nuva's swords are made out of, it would be a Protodermis alloy that hasn't been specifically named yet. After all, different Toa deal with different situations, so it makes some sense that they get tools made with different alloys that meet the specifcations of their envrionment.

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

I agree with Ladon, but it's still a really good and hard question.

[Makuta Matata]

The EP probably changed the Toa Mata's weapons to be more specific to their abilities and needs.

[fishers64]

Since lava boards were made for surfing out of a certain kind of rock, that Artahka might have incorporated this kind of rock into Tahu's orginal sword to provide heat resistance. However, it is established that the orginal tools had heat resistance, regardless of source.[Edit: Landon is probably right, there was a different alloy in the tools to provide the initial heat resistance]

Energized Protodermis does some crazy things. Pretty sure it altered the tools of the Toa Nuva so that they are much more resistant to heat and cold than any normal tool could be.

Probably this has merit; the original tools had heat resistance; the Energized Protodermis probably expanded it and made it more powerful. Also, the OP mentioned "actual lava" Source? If we're talking Voya Nui, remember that that is an island from inside the MU, and lava from it is proto-based. Edited April 22, 2012 by fishers64

[T.B.O.C]

Since lava boards were made for surfing out of a certain kind of rock, that Artahka might have incorporated this kind of rock into Tahu's orginal sword to provide heat resistance. However, it is established that the orginal tools had heat resistance, regardless of source.[Edit: Landon is probably right, there was a different alloy in the tools to provide the initial heat resistance]

Energized Protodermis does some crazy things. Pretty sure it altered the tools of the Toa Nuva so that they are much more resistant to heat and cold than any normal tool could be.

Probably this has merit; the original tools had heat resistance; the Energized Protodermis probably expanded it and made it more powerful.Also, the OP mentioned "actual lava" Source? If we're talking Voya Nui, remember that that is an island from inside the MU, and lava from it is proto-based.

Mata Nui, from the artificial volcano on the island. I'm not exactly sure, but was it molten protodermis? I didn't think it was...

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

Since lava boards were made for surfing out of a certain kind of rock, that Artahka might have incorporated this kind of rock into Tahu's orginal sword to provide heat resistance. However, it is established that the orginal tools had heat resistance, regardless of source.[Edit: Landon is probably right, there was a different alloy in the tools to provide the initial heat resistance]

Energized Protodermis does some crazy things. Pretty sure it altered the tools of the Toa Nuva so that they are much more resistant to heat and cold than any normal tool could be.

Probably this has merit; the original tools had heat resistance; the Energized Protodermis probably expanded it and made it more powerful.Also, the OP mentioned "actual lava" Source? If we're talking Voya Nui, remember that that is an island from inside the MU, and lava from it is proto-based.

Mata Nui, from the artificial volcano on the island. I'm not exactly sure, but was it molten protodermis? I didn't think it was...

If you're referring to the island of Mata Nui, I doubt it-- it was on the surface of an actual planet, so I assumed that the molten material beneath the planet's surface was actually molten rock, not protodermis.[i realize that protodermis can come in a form similar to rock, but you know what I mean.]

[T.B.O.C]

Since lava boards were made for surfing out of a certain kind of rock, that Artahka might have incorporated this kind of rock into Tahu's orginal sword to provide heat resistance. However, it is established that the orginal tools had heat resistance, regardless of source.[Edit: Landon is probably right, there was a different alloy in the tools to provide the initial heat resistance]

Energized Protodermis does some crazy things. Pretty sure it altered the tools of the Toa Nuva so that they are much more resistant to heat and cold than any normal tool could be.

Probably this has merit; the original tools had heat resistance; the Energized Protodermis probably expanded it and made it more powerful.Also, the OP mentioned "actual lava" Source? If we're talking Voya Nui, remember that that is an island from inside the MU, and lava from it is proto-based.

Mata Nui, from the artificial volcano on the island. I'm not exactly sure, but was it molten protodermis? I didn't think it was...

If you're referring to the island of Mata Nui, I doubt it-- it was on the surface of an actual planet, so I assumed that the molten material beneath the planet's surface was actually molten rock, not protodermis.[i realize that protodermis can come in a form similar to rock, but you know what I mean.]

The lava didn't come from the planet, the island is artificially created, as well as the volcano, the flora, and the rock, all from Energized Protodermis, so it may be protodermis-based.

[bonesiii]

To the latest few posts, it was molten protodermis pumped from Ta-Metru. If it had been from the planet that would imply a volcano had cut right through the robot's brain Core, through Metru Nui, and through his face, so that would kinda be bad. And it was probably (as I've said in other recent topics) cooled down a lot by the time it reached there, compared to the much hotter molten proto in Ta-Metru, so less likely to melt things.Also, Tahu can absorb heat, so he might be able to keep things from melting, especially the Tool he focuses his power through.

[Dralcax]

Why don't a Toa of Water's tools rust? A Toa of Fire's tools melt? After all, the Metru were given a bunch of tools to choose from, so Onewa could have just as easily picked up Nokama's blades. I think that a Toa Tool connects to the Toa in some way so that usage would not break it. This is also how elemental powers can be focused through the tools.

[bonesiii]

Chaos, there's no reason to think Toa Tools are made of corrosive metal. Same goes for the metal of the mechanical part of the biomechanical beings; all of that would logically be made of non-rusting metal. But yeah, I think another way to put it is that Tahu has strong heat resistance due to being a Toa, and his swords focus his power, so it makes sense the swords would have the same resistance, or better even.

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

To the latest few posts, it was molten protodermis pumped from Ta-Metru. If it had been from the planet that would imply a volcano had cut right through the robot's brain Core, through Metru Nui, and through his face, so that would kinda be bad. And it was probably (as I've said in other recent topics) cooled down a lot by the time it reached there, compared to the much hotter molten proto in Ta-Metru, so less likely to melt things.Also, Tahu can absorb heat, so he might be able to keep things from melting, especially the Tool he focuses his power through.

Hadn't thought about the face thing... but still, I have no idea how the systems in Mata Nui's face work so...So Ta-Metru just pumps up molten protodermis through... what, exactly? And what purpose would that serve?But back on the topic of Tahu's fire swords, if he used his power to make sure they don't overheat, wouldn't that mean he would be constantly putting effort every time he gets into a fight? Wouldn't that be distracting? Or at least a bit weakening?

Why don't a Toa of Water's tools rust? A Toa of Fire's tools melt? After all, the Metru were given a bunch of tools to choose from, so Onewa could have just as easily picked up Nokama's blades. I think that a Toa Tool connects to the Toa in some way so that usage would not break it. This is also how elemental powers can be focused through the tools.

Does protodermis rust? Can it? :blink:EDIT: Never mind; Bones already answered the rust thing. Edited April 23, 2012 by Ladon: Lord of Hesperides

[fishers64]

If it's all in the Toa, what about Matoran armor and lava boards? Ta-Matoran have not control over fire, so I doubt that that resistance comes from their minds.Heat-resistant protodermis does exist, and Tahu probably has that in his tools.

[bonesiii]

And what purpose would that serve?

Well, the purpose it has served is to fuel the Mangai volcano. On an island that exists to be camouflage, which makes sense. We typically think of random islands in the middle of oceans to be made by volcanoes, right? If you found one with no evidence of a volcano you might think it was odd, but one with a volcano you wouldn't think twice about.If there is a secondary purpose to it I'm not sure what that might be.And fishers, I agree lava-resistant material could easily be in the Tool too. I personally prefer to think in Tahu's case there isn't, though, just to be true to the principle that any Toa could use any other Toa's tools -- so any roughly lava-board shaped Tool could work as a surfboard for him. No idea if that's canon, though. But it is definately confirmed that that material is used in lava surfboards and in the lava pipes. Edited April 23, 2012 by bonesiii

[Hexann]

I believe a Toa's weapon's endurance has to do with the element he or her is in control of. Thus scence Tahu is toa of fire his weapons will be able to endure lava.

[Ladon: Lord of Hesperides]

And what purpose would that serve?

Well, the purpose it has served is to fuel the Mangai volcano. On an island that exists to be camouflage, which makes sense. We typically think of random islands in the middle of oceans to be made by volcanoes, right? If you found one with no evidence of a volcano you might think it was odd, but one with a volcano you wouldn't think twice about.If there is a secondary purpose to it I'm not sure what that might be.

...okay, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up, Bones.

[fishers64]

And fishers, I agree lava-resistant material could easily be in the Tool too. I personally prefer to think in Tahu's case there isn't, though, just to be true to the principle that any Toa could use any other Toa's tools -- so any roughly lava-board shaped Tool could work as a surfboard for him. No idea if that's canon, though. But it is definately confirmed that that material is used in lava surfboards and in the lava pipes.

I would disagree with that principle for the Toa Mata/Nuva. While others have pointed out that the Metru's tools were selected by their users and could be interchangable, the Mata/Nuva were designed by Artahka, and each of those tools that they came with orginally were specifically designed for each one of them. For example, Tahu's and Kopaka's swords were a good match for what they were doing, but a heavy sword doesn't work well underwater, so Gali didn't have it. Onua had claws instead - better for digging through earth. When they became Toa Nuva, those tools became even more unique and specialized to individuals. Innate lava resistance would just go along with that trend. And then again, there is that scene in MoL where Tahu and Gali both surf on the board. We know that Gali doesn't have heat resistance on the scale Tahu does, so Tahu has enough concentration to surf double on the board and keep it from melting? Really?

[Dralcax]

And fishers, I agree lava-resistant material could easily be in the Tool too. I personally prefer to think in Tahu's case there isn't, though, just to be true to the principle that any Toa could use any other Toa's tools -- so any roughly lava-board shaped Tool could work as a surfboard for him. No idea if that's canon, though. But it is definately confirmed that that material is used in lava surfboards and in the lava pipes.

I would disagree with that principle for the Toa Mata/Nuva. While others have pointed out that the Metru's tools were selected by their users and could be interchangable, the Mata/Nuva were designed by Artahka, and each of those tools that they came with orginally were specifically designed for each one of them.For example, Tahu's and Kopaka's swords were a good match for what they were doing, but a heavy sword doesn't work well underwater, so Gali didn't have it. Onua had claws instead - better for digging through earth.When they became Toa Nuva, those tools became even more unique and specialized to individuals. Innate lava resistance would just go along with that trend. And then again, there is that scene in MoL where Tahu and Gali both surf on the board. We know that Gali doesn't have heat resistance on the scale Tahu does, so Tahu has enough concentration to surf double on the board and keep it from melting? Really?

The tool is "paired" with Tahu, so to speak.

[fishers64]

And fishers, I agree lava-resistant material could easily be in the Tool too. I personally prefer to think in Tahu's case there isn't, though, just to be true to the principle that any Toa could use any other Toa's tools -- so any roughly lava-board shaped Tool could work as a surfboard for him. No idea if that's canon, though. But it is definately confirmed that that material is used in lava surfboards and in the lava pipes.

I would disagree with that principle for the Toa Mata/Nuva. While others have pointed out that the Metru's tools were selected by their users and could be interchangable, the Mata/Nuva were designed by Artahka, and each of those tools that they came with orginally were specifically designed for each one of them.For example, Tahu's and Kopaka's swords were a good match for what they were doing, but a heavy sword doesn't work well underwater, so Gali didn't have it. Onua had claws instead - better for digging through earth.When they became Toa Nuva, those tools became even more unique and specialized to individuals. Innate lava resistance would just go along with that trend. And then again, there is that scene in MoL where Tahu and Gali both surf on the board. We know that Gali doesn't have heat resistance on the scale Tahu does, so Tahu has enough concentration to surf double on the board and keep it from melting? Really?

The tool is "paired" with Tahu, so to speak.

Eeeeggzactly! It was designed by His Amazingness Artahka himself for specific use by one Tahu. Lava resistance included free of charge.

[Toa of Nerds]

Hadn't thought about the face thing... but still, I have no idea how the systems in Mata Nui's face work so...So Ta-Metru just pumps up molten protodermis through... what, exactly? And what purpose would that serve?

Just a thought, but the volcano is Mata-Nui's nose, right? So does that mean that the lava is essentially Mata-Nui's snot?But on topic, I think there is some sort of protodermis alloy that is strong enough to surf on lava. The villagers of Ta-Koro did it all the time, so there's no reason why Tahu's swords wouldn't do the same. However, I'm sure that Tahu's elemental powers do increase the metal's heat resistance to even beyond the normal resistance of the metal.-don't touch my pocket protector

[Dralcax]

Hadn't thought about the face thing... but still, I have no idea how the systems in Mata Nui's face work so...So Ta-Metru just pumps up molten protodermis through... what, exactly? And what purpose would that serve?

Just a thought, but the volcano is Mata-Nui's nose, right? So does that mean that the lava is essentially Mata-Nui's snot?

No, it's saliva. Ihu is the nose.

[bonesiii]

And fishers, I agree lava-resistant material could easily be in the Tool too. I personally prefer to think in Tahu's case there isn't, though, just to be true to the principle that any Toa could use any other Toa's tools -- so any roughly lava-board shaped Tool could work as a surfboard for him. No idea if that's canon, though. But it is definately confirmed that that material is used in lava surfboards and in the lava pipes.

I would disagree with that principle for the Toa Mata/Nuva. While others have pointed out that the Metru's tools were selected by their users and could be interchangable, the Mata/Nuva were designed by Artahka, and each of those tools that they came with orginally were specifically designed for each one of them.For example, Tahu's and Kopaka's swords were a good match for what they were doing, but a heavy sword doesn't work well underwater, so Gali didn't have it. Onua had claws instead - better for digging through earth.When they became Toa Nuva, those tools became even more unique and specialized to individuals. Innate lava resistance would just go along with that trend. And then again, there is that scene in MoL where Tahu and Gali both surf on the board. We know that Gali doesn't have heat resistance on the scale Tahu does, so Tahu has enough concentration to surf double on the board and keep it from melting? Really?

His elemental resistance is automatic, "always on", so if it extends to the surfboard then mental concentration isn't needed.Also, I'm not saying the shapes of the Tools they actually have aren't designed for them; this is obviously true, but that any Toa could, if they lost their own Tool, borrow any other Toa Tool and do just as well with it specifically with their elemental power. (Or so the principle would go if it is canon.)

[fishers64]

His elemental resistance is automatic, "always on", so if it extends to the surfboard then mental concentration isn't needed.Also, I'm not saying the shapes of the Tools they actually have aren't designed for them; this is obviously true, but that any Toa could, if they lost their own Tool, borrow any other Toa Tool and do just as well with it specifically with their elemental power. (Or so the principle would go if it is canon.)

Fair enough.

[T.B.O.C]

To the latest few posts, it was molten protodermis pumped from Ta-Metru. If it had been from the planet that would imply a volcano had cut right through the robot's brain Core, through Metru Nui, and through his face, so that would kinda be bad. And it was probably (as I've said in other recent topics) cooled down a lot by the time it reached there, compared to the much hotter molten proto in Ta-Metru, so less likely to melt things.Also, Tahu can absorb heat, so he might be able to keep things from melting, especially the Tool he focuses his power through.

I'd doubt that it's pumped from Ta-Metru, as that would involve an amazing series a pipelines feeding into the volcano, and that's unreasonable too - The Mangai is huge, and on an island way larger than Metru Nui, and we've seen the scope of the Mangai: large lava rivers running, a large lava lake separate from the crater itself. I don't think that amount of molten prototdermis could exist on Metru Nui at a time, regardless of being able to make that much either.

[bonesiii]

I'd doubt that it's pumped from Ta-Metru, as that would involve an amazing series a pipelines feeding into the volcano, and that's unreasonable too - The Mangai is huge, and on an island way larger than Metru Nui, and we've seen the scope of the Mangai: large lava rivers running, a large lava lake separate from the crater itself. I don't think that amount of molten prototdermis could exist on Metru Nui at a time, regardless of being able to make that much either.

Just in case I didn't make this clear, this isn't my theory: Greg confirmed it, so there's really no need for doubt. We don't know all the specifics, but we do know that's the basic answer.How much is on Metru Nui at a time is irrelevant, because this lava doesn't stay on Metru Nui, it's pumped up to the surface. The length of a pipe has virtually nothing to do with the flow rate. However long it is, if you send a liquid through it at the same rate, it comes out the other end at roughly that rate. And it was a slow-flowing lava river, so not much would need to be pumped at a time to keep it up. (If anything the real issue is that it must be draining the Silver Sea slowly, but probably Mata Nui has elemental systems to fix that.)Where else would it come from? Any other automated systems that heat liquid protodermis would be farther south and so the pipes would have to cross even a greater distance. A furnace system in the ceiling of the dome could work, but there would never be Matoran to maintain it. Plus the liquid protodermis is in a level sea down at Metru Nui's level, so it still would have had to be pumped up to such a furnace anyways.It would be a shorter journey if a furnace was put next to or in the Great Barrier, but no Matoran lived there. They could have, but it would have been less efficient for their society. Also more distance might be a good thing if the lava had to cool from its super-hot Ta-Metru state before reaching the volcano.Finally, why would it be amazing that there is a sufficient system in a giant robot to handle whatever surface "special effects" are needed? Or at least, more amazing than it already is amazing to have such a giant robot to begin with? :PEdit: Choice of word "society" is bad; I'm sure it'll give people the impression of the sapience that wasn't planned, but I just mean in terms of closeness of the different types who are working together with their different jobs. Edited April 26, 2012 by bonesiii

[T.B.O.C]

I'd doubt that it's pumped from Ta-Metru, as that would involve an amazing series a pipelines feeding into the volcano, and that's unreasonable too - The Mangai is huge, and on an island way larger than Metru Nui, and we've seen the scope of the Mangai: large lava rivers running, a large lava lake separate from the crater itself. I don't think that amount of molten prototdermis could exist on Metru Nui at a time, regardless of being able to make that much either.

Just in case I didn't make this clear, this isn't my theory: Greg confirmed it, so there's really no need for doubt. We don't know all the specifics, but we do know that's the basic answer.How much is on Metru Nui at a time is irrelevant, because this lava doesn't stay on Metru Nui, it's pumped up to the surface. The length of a pipe has virtually nothing to do with the flow rate. However long it is, if you send a liquid through it at the same rate, it comes out the other end at roughly that rate. And it was a slow-flowing lava river, so not much would need to be pumped at a time to keep it up. (If anything the real issue is that it must be draining the Silver Sea slowly, but probably Mata Nui has elemental systems to fix that.)Where else would it come from? Any other automated systems that heat liquid protodermis would be farther south and so the pipes would have to cross even a greater distance. A furnace system in the ceiling of the dome could work, but there would never be Matoran to maintain it. Plus the liquid protodermis is in a level sea down at Metru Nui's level, so it still would have had to be pumped up to such a furnace anyways.It would be a shorter journey if a furnace was put next to or in the Great Barrier, but no Matoran lived there. They could have, but it would have been less efficient for their society. Also more distance might be a good thing if the lava had to cool from its super-hot Ta-Metru state before reaching the volcano.Finally, why would it be amazing that there is a sufficient system in a giant robot to handle whatever surface "special effects" are needed? Or at least, more amazing than it already is amazing to have such a giant robot to begin with? :PEdit: Choice of word "society" is bad; I'm sure it'll give people the impression of the sapience that wasn't planned, but I just mean in terms of closeness of the different types who are working together with their different jobs.

Oh, I know it wasn't a theory. I just don't really like that as an explanation. To me, it'd make more sense for the generation of lava to be part of the camoflauge system, rather than being pumped from Metru Nui. Either way, wouldn't it eventually run out during the 1000 years of unmaintained Metru Nui? It's known that the Ta-Matoran harvested it on a regular basis, and didn't the matoran melt things down to create it on Metru nui? Wouldn't it have ran out?Either way, it seems that people think so far that 1; Artahka himself designed Tahu's Firesword from a heat-resistant protodermis-alloy, which kept when it was transformed into the Magma Swords; 2, that Tahu's heat resistance as a Toa of Fire and or a Toa Tools ability to conform to the element of it's user affected the Magma Swords, keeping them from melting; or 3, as a Toa Nuva, the blades became more-heat resistant, as they became more unique and alike to it's Toa user. I've probably forgotten something there, but that's what I've developed for now. Edited April 26, 2012 by T.B.O.C

[bonesiii]

Oh, I know it wasn't a theory. I just don't really like that as an explanation. To me, it'd make more sense for the generation of lava to be part of the camoflauge system, rather than being pumped from Metru Nui.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. I can think of no major purpose for it other than being part of the camouflage system. As I said, if you saw an island in the middle of the ocean without a volcano, you'd probably think it odder than one with a volcano, so the volcano could serve as "plausible deniability" as it were.

wouldn't it eventually run out during the 1000 years of unmaintained Metru Nui?

As I said, it's likely there are also automated systems in the giant robot that keep the level of the Silver Sea about equal. This is a universe where Toa, elemental masks, or elemental tools can make water out of energy, so the level could be kept equal by machines using parts with the power of Water.Actually, come to think of it, it's possible that Toa of Water doing their normal job actually would slowly fill up the ocean anyways, so the pump might be preventing an overflow, in fact. That was something I considered back in 2001 for my fanfics; with all this making of new water, somewhere something would have to balance that out, and more so in the MU. But even if not, it's a problem that established powers can easily handle.Once that is handled (and it can be done by automated systems), the rest runs on automation. The Matoran just maintain it, and this is over a scale of hundreds of thousands of years. One millenium against the backdrop of that much time is a drop in the proverbial bucket, so it's very plausible it wouldn't happen to break down in that time. Also, the Rahaga and Dume were there so if it did actually break there'd be someone to fix it.But really, if the giant robot was so flimsy that just a thousand years without direct maintenance would be enough time to break down, it probably could not have ever flown. Keep in mind this is protodermis, a fictional substance, so Earth-based assumptions of wear-and-tear rates don't necessarily apply.

It's known that the Ta-Matoran harvested it on a regular basis, and didn't the matoran melt things down to create it on Metru nui? Wouldn't it have ran out?

Wouldn't the lack of Ta-Matoran being there during the thousand years thus be a benefit to the lava flow? They wouldn't be doing this while up on Mata Nui, so how is it relevant?

[The Great Spirit DM]

I agree with Ladon, but it's still a really good and hard question.

The EP probably changed the Toa Mata's weapons to be more specific to their abilities and needs.

One of these two I say.