Toa Kaita?

[742mph]

So I was re-watching the series of cutscenes at the end of MNOLG yesterday when I thought of something. If all it takes to form and maintain a Toa Kaita is three Toa and enough concentration, then why don't we see them more often (besides it getting old in real-life terms, of course)? It makes sense with the Toa Metru, since they probably didn't even know that they could form Kaita, but what about the Inika/Mahri and the Nuva while in Karda Nui? Both would have known about them, the latter because they had formed Kaita themselves and the former because they were once Matoran who probably heard about it from Takua.My best guess as to why Kaita are formed so rarely is that the GBs programmed it into the Toa as--say it with me--a failsafe, only for critical situations such as a battle with a Makuta or with three Bohrok-Kal. They could have given the Toa an instinct of sorts not to form Kaita unless they thought it was absoulutely necessary to prevent them from abusing it in unforeseen ways. Forming Kaita excessively might also be detrimental to a Toa's physical and mental health, preventing them from operating on their own if they're used to being only one-third of an organism.Any other ideas?

[makuta_icarax]

I think they find it very uncomfortable- they sort of give up their own individuality. I would imagine that it is physically and mentally exhausting, and if it didn't work for whatever reason, then it would leave them very vulnerable.I think destiny probably plays a role, too, especially in the case of forming a Matoran Kaita. That's a lot of power for just any three Matoran to be running around with.

[Meta-Mind]

To be frank, I think it's mostly because the developers stopped making three-Toa combo models after 2005, and the Metru didn't have the experience to form Kaitas. It also might be because GregF thought it was "overused" and didn't want to see it abused each year. Of course, it's all conjecture, I suppose.As far as story goes, your theory works fine. I personally think it was because Toa Kaita required a high degree of unity between the team, something only a team which had been together for a while (such as the Mata) could achieve.

[Chro]

I think makuta_icarax hit the nail on the head here. Another potential reason is something that I see used often in stories and such... a larger and more powerful single entity has weaknesses against a few powerful seperate enemies. If the Nuva or Inika had gone Kaita, they likely would have found it more difficult to defend against the more numerous Makuta, Piraka, or Barraki.Oh, by the way, welcome to the site, 742mph.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Chro

[bonesiii]

This is another of those "extra padding" type things that were added to the 2001 story but that would have been old if repeated and annoying to have to explain again, so they started acting like they didn't exist (Golden Kanohi, even collecting Kanohi, etc.), plus, let's face it, Kaita are hopelessly ugly.In-story, the concept was around with some of the side stories. Takutanuva was a two-fusion, similar to a Kaita. And I think one of the DH's origin stories was related. Plus Vezon's origin was like the opposite. In general, I think it was much simpler than most of yall's theories -- the other Toa teams acheived their goals without it.

[Chro]

In general, I think it was much simpler than most of yall's theories -- the other Toa teams acheived their goals without it.

There goes Bones, stealing our thunder with the obvious answer. Really though, I don't care whether or not you say "it was their destiny to not need to be a Kaita", that's kind of a poor reason not to put more in the story. With some of the sets nearer to the end of the Ignition arc, I think it wouldn't have been to hard to make some awesome combiners for, say, the Mistika Nuva (though if they did, they would likely decanonize them).

[742mph]

Another potential reason is something that I see used often in stories and such... a larger and more powerful single entity has weaknesses against a few powerful seperate enemies. If the Nuva or Inika had gone Kaita, they likely would have found it more difficult to defend against the more numerous Makuta, Piraka, or Barraki.Oh, by the way, welcome to the site, 742mph.

Now that I think about it, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Any fusion, after all, is essentially several beings' power compacted into a single being, and compacting things is just increasing their density (focus) but reducing their volume (area of effect). In simple terms, the fusion would be more powerful than the sum of its parts but couldn't focus on everything at once. That makes it easier to see how, say, all six Barraki acting seperately could bring down two Toa Mahri Kaita but not six individual Toa Mahri.Thank you for welcoming me, by the way, although I'm not actually new here. I used to be "Vikrota: Toa of Randomness" or something like that on the old forum, but I left for a couple of years and I can't access my old account on this new forum.

[Chro]

Thank you for welcoming me, by the way, although I'm not actually new here. I used to be "Vikrota: Toa of Randomness" or something like that on the old forum, but I left for a couple of years and I can't access my old account on this new forum.

Oh, sorry about that. I'm relatively new here myself, so I didn't know, haha. Anyways, your focus / density / power explanation is more detailed than exactly what I was thinking of, but is pretty much the same point, so thanks for explaining that further.

[Toa of Nerds]

I think that only Toa destined to form Kaita can form them. The Toa Mata were destined to do so and so they could, whereas other Toa teams weren't. Or maybe the Mata were the first Toa to figure it out, and later Toa just didn't have the opportunity to do it?-don't touch my pocket protector

[Toa Nidhiki05]

So I was re-watching the series of cutscenes at the end of MNOLG yesterday when I thought of something. If all it takes to form and maintain a Toa Kaita is three Toa and enough concentration, then why don't we see them more often (besides it getting old in real-life terms, of course)? It makes sense with the Toa Metru, since they probably didn't even know that they could form Kaita, but what about the Inika/Mahri and the Nuva while in Karda Nui? Both would have known about them, the latter because they had formed Kaita themselves and the former because they were once Matoran who probably heard about it from Takua.My best guess as to why Kaita are formed so rarely is that the GBs programmed it into the Toa as--say it with me--a failsafe, only for critical situations such as a battle with a Makuta or with three Bohrok-Kal. They could have given the Toa an instinct of sorts not to form Kaita unless they thought it was absoulutely necessary to prevent them from abusing it in unforeseen ways. Forming Kaita excessively might also be detrimental to a Toa's physical and mental health, preventing them from operating on their own if they're used to being only one-third of an organism.Any other ideas?

Well for one reason, the powers granted are rather negligible - some extra control over elements, extra strength, and multiple Kanohi powers (although they cannot be used in combination). For another, if a Toa Kaita dies its members all die. Generally speaking, in combat it is not a good idea to make yourself larger and more visible. It is much easier to target and destroy a single Kaita than three individual Toa spread out over multiple locations. Strictly speaking, forming a Kaita would be a last-ditch move most of the time.That isn't to say such fusions or the situations where they are useful are uncommon, however - we simply haven't seen them very often in use, similar to how Turaga have never been demonstrated to use their elemental powers on-screen. My guess would be, just as Greg said the Mata Nui Turaga frequently used their powers to protect their village, that Toa Kaita are formed sometimes, but the vast majority of such events would happen off-screen. -TN05

[Makuta_of_Oz]

I imagine very few Toa would've known that it was possible. As for the Inika, maybe they just never thought of it, since they were still becoming used to being Toa to begin with.I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Orde, Chiara and Zaria might become a Toa Kaita at some point on their mission.

[Night Terror]

This is another of those "extra padding" type things that were added to the 2001 story but that would have been old if repeated and annoying to have to explain again, so they started acting like they didn't exist (Golden Kanohi, even collecting Kanohi, etc.), plus, let's face it, Kaita are hopelessly ugly.In-story, the concept was around with some of the side stories. Takutanuva was a two-fusion, similar to a Kaita. And I think one of the DH's origin stories was related. Plus Vezon's origin was like the opposite. In general, I think it was much simpler than most of yall's theories -- the other Toa teams acheived their goals without it.

But, but... I liked them! :PI think Meta-ind just gave you the real reason. The story, after all, focuses on the sets. If no Kaita model was formed by LEGO, there wasn't much of a reason to put them in the story. Not that Greg, if he ever returns to write serials or something, can't use them

[Makuta_of_Oz]

This is another of those "extra padding" type things that were added to the 2001 story but that would have been old if repeated and annoying to have to explain again, so they started acting like they didn't exist (Golden Kanohi, even collecting Kanohi, etc.), plus, let's face it, Kaita are hopelessly ugly.In-story, the concept was around with some of the side stories. Takutanuva was a two-fusion, similar to a Kaita. And I think one of the DH's origin stories was related. Plus Vezon's origin was like the opposite. In general, I think it was much simpler than most of yall's theories -- the other Toa teams acheived their goals without it.

But, but... I liked them!

Me too! In fact I thought the Toa Mata Kaita were some of the best combiners in the series!

[Axilus Prime]

^This, pretty much.I actually think the Nuva Kaita looked great and far better. Truth be told, I like Kaita, and while playing with a friend's sets once, pretended the Jovan combiner was a Kaita.Anyway, Metru didn't know it or have the experience. Inika, on the other hand, may not have even been able to due to energy interference. (or what Makuta_Icarax said)Mahri, though? Probably the Pit Mutagen, or once again what Makuta_Icarax said.Just some random little explanations. I would have loved to see '08 Nuva Kaita though.

[Podu]

I guess the problem with Kaita is that the Kaita has no memory of what goals the Toa had. The Kaita Mata was successful because the goal of the Toa Mata was obivious - scary monsters block the way, Kaita beats monsters, quick-win Toa-victory. Besides, forming Kaita requires time, something that Inika/Mahri lacked.In reply to the post above me, Mahri team was never affected by the Pit Mutagen. Their transformation is by Ignika.

[Meta-Mind]

Well, I've sort of developed a theory as to why the 2008 Nuva didn't form Kaita.According to BS01:

Wairuha Nuva would not have access the abilities of the Adaptive Armor.

So, uh, let's just say it would've been a long fall. Edited October 1, 2012 by Meta-Mind

[The 1st Shadow]

Well, I've sort of developed a theory as to why the 2008 Nuva didn't form Kaita.According to BS01:

Wairuha Nuva would not have access the abilities of the Adaptive Armor.

So, uh, let's just say it would've been a long fall.

But where was it stated that the Nuva knew about that? We know Artakha told them what it could do, but do we know if even he knew about that limitation? I'm all for the theory that the Nuva were trying to have more sets of eyes, seeing as the were up against seven (later eight) Makuta, as opposed to just the one (Teridax) they faced before. Six Toa instead of two separate Kaita evened the odds a bit more. Edited October 6, 2012 by ~The 1st Shadow~

[The Iron Toa]

I liked the Kaita, as a concept and as set combos. It's a shame that versions for the other Toa weren't made, but I've managed to make Kaita from my custom Toa and I'm not that great a MOCist, so I think most people could pull off a good Metru, Inika, or Mistika style Kaita or a mixture. I would guess Toa don't know the technique automatically, but it wouldn't be a secret known only to a few, at least not when Toa were common. And Kaita are hard to form and have their disadvantages - they're a bigger target and have only one point of view instead of three. Also, another reason the Kaita wouldn't be formed in Karda Nui is Makuta can break them apart into individual Toa. This happened to Akamai and Wairuha in Mangaia and if the idea to form Kaita in Karda Nui occurred to the Toa Nuva, they probably remembered that ability of the Makuta.

[Noble Tehurye]

In general, I think it was much simpler than most of yall's theories -- the other Toa teams acheived their goals without it.

There goes Bones, stealing our thunder with the obvious answer. Really though, I don't care whether or not you say "it was their destiny to not need to be a Kaita", that's kind of a poor reason not to put more in the story. With some of the sets nearer to the end of the Ignition arc, I think it wouldn't have been to hard to make some awesome combiners for, say, the Mistika Nuva (though if they did, they would likely decanonize them).

Quite right, I honestly think it had a little to do with a lack of effort on Lego's part to want to make a nice combiner. Still, Destiny does have a lot to do with it... it would've been real great to see an Inika Kaita, though. We almost got one anyways, with Toa Jovan. A real epic combiner, IMHO.

[Klak]

I think it's a combination of the reasons explained above. Lego didn't want combiner sets to be advertised as much in the latter years (well, there still were combiner sets, they just weren't a big part of the story, often becoming side characters or creatures). Greg might not have wanted to overuse the "Let our powers combine" idea.The Inika/Mahri were probably not strong enough as a team to be able to form something like that, and the Toa Nuva had already become too powerful to find it necessary. Plus, it wouldn't work with Adaptive Armor. :PAnother reason could be that the Mahri/Inika didn't face a single threat like the Toa Mata did. Jaller and co. were fighting the Piraka (who constantly betrayed one another and formed their own alliances), Vezon and Fenrakk, Brutaka, the Barakki (who also had trust issues), Hyraxxon, Teridax, and Gadunka, all within a short timespan; unlike the Toa Mata, who pretty much fought Teridax and his minions, and later the Bohrok.This means that they had to divide themselves to accomplish tasks more efficiently.

[Axilus Prime]

I guess the problem with Kaita is that the Kaita has no memory of what goals the Toa had. The Kaita Mata was successful because the goal of the Toa Mata was obivious - scary monsters block the way, Kaita beats monsters, quick-win Toa-victory. Besides, forming Kaita requires time, something that Inika/Mahri lacked.In reply to the post above me, Mahri team was never affected by the Pit Mutagen. Their transformation is by Ignika.

I meant the mutagen could be running external interference. Alternatively, splitting up their bodies in that environment would let the stuff inside.

[Noble Tehurye]

I think it's a combination of the reasons explained above. Lego didn't want combiner sets to be advertised as much in the latter years (well, there still were combiner sets, they just weren't a big part of the story, often becoming side characters or creatures). Greg might not have wanted to overuse the "Let our powers combine" idea.the Toa Nuva had already become too powerful to find it necessary. Plus, it wouldn't work with Adaptive Armor.

I think that's the somewhat unfortunate truth.Er... unless you mean the Phantoka/Mistika Toa Nuva (you did mention the adaptive armor) then the earlier 2003 Toa Nuva did make one Kaita: Toa Nuva Kaita Wairhua. 'Twas during the Bohrok-Kal strike, and that Kaita was defeated by the Bohrok-Kal kaita Ja, simply because the Nuva had lost their elemental powers.

[Klak]

I think it's a combination of the reasons explained above. Lego didn't want combiner sets to be advertised as much in the latter years (well, there still were combiner sets, they just weren't a big part of the story, often becoming side characters or creatures). Greg might not have wanted to overuse the "Let our powers combine" idea.the Toa Nuva had already become too powerful to find it necessary. Plus, it wouldn't work with Adaptive Armor.

I think that's the somewhat unfortunate truth.Er... unless you mean the Phantoka/Mistika Toa Nuva (you did mention the adaptive armor) then the earlier 2003 Toa Nuva did make one Kaita: Toa Nuva Kaita Wairhua. 'Twas during the Bohrok-Kal strike, and that Kaita was defeated by the Bohrok-Kal kaita Ja, simply because the Nuva had lost their elemental powers.

Oh, my bad, I meant during the time the Toa Inika were around, not earlier.

[Logan Tec]

I think a real life reason is because there was always going to be a duel gender kita if you had 2 or 1 or 3 kitas which is just super werid if you think about it i mean when in molg the 2 kitas both act like boys but one had gail in it so i think it was just kinda werid for younger ppl to see a duel gender kita. and understand that it means. i don't even understand how that works . and there was that one part were the 6 matoren form the Metru-nui story formed a kita all 6 of them it was in one of the books about the morbozax (no idea how to spell that) they were defending them self's from something but then akmou split off from them and that froced them all to split apart so it has happned at least 3 story years in a row but no other story has it in it so it was used 3 years in a row so if the matoren knew how to make a kita couldn't the toa metru as well?

Edited October 3, 2012 by tecnokua

[Meta-Mind]

I think a real life reason is because there was always going to be a duel gender kita if you had 2 or 1 or 3 kitas which is just super werid if you think about it i mean when in molg the 2 kitas both act like boys but one had gail in it so i think it was just kinda werid for younger ppl to see a duel gender kita. and understand that i mean i don't even understand how that works . and there was that one part were the 6 matoren form the Metru-nui story formed a kita all 6 of them it was in one of the books about the morbozax (no idea how to spell that) they were defending them self's from something but then akmou split off from them and that froced them all to split apart so it has happned at least 3 story years in a row but no other story has it in it so it was used 3 years in a row so if the matoren knew how to make a kita couldn't the toa metru as well?

First off, Kaita take on the gender of the majority of their constituents. Since both Lewa and Kopaka are male, Wairuha was male.The example on Metru Nui was technically a Matoran Nui, which is... somewhat different. However, you still raise a good point about the Metru and the Great Disk-finding Matoran: if Tehutti had discovered what Unity could do for Matoran, why didn't he share the idea with the Metru? On the other hand, Tehutti may have only known of Matoran Nui (he says something he once saw in the Archives which "could help them," but never specified what), not Toa Kaita. It may have just been an oversight on his part, even. There's also the possibility that Tehutti still wasn't sure what to think about the Metru, and was uncertain if that kind of power would break the team apart. Edited October 3, 2012 by Meta-Mind

[Noble Tehurye]

Oh, my bad, I meant during the time the Toa Inika were around, not earlier.

I thought so, it's okay. Sorry if I made you feel bad.But yes, what you said makes sense.

[Dralcax]

The Mata had years of extensive combat training. They could easily form Kaita (relatively, that is). However, the Metru and Mahri were relatively new, and usually had their hands full just surviving and didn't have time for physical and mental training.

[Sir Kohran]

Ultimately it results from the construction aspect of Bionicle effectively vanishing from sets after 2004 or so to make way for action features and poseability, because Lego thought kids were no longer interested in the creative building aspect that featured prominently in the early years. So complex builds and combiners faded away from both the sets and story.One only needs to look at the set reviews for evidence of this change.Boxor, 2002: 'Let me say right off the bat that I found this model to be one of the most fun to assemble of any I've had in recent memory [...] it's still so intriguing to see how all of the steps come together in the end to create the synchronized movement that it doesn't matter. It's just plain fun to build.'Umbra, 2006: 'The build itself was pretty straightforward, what with nearly every piece being available in past sets. The set is so simple, it’s almost impossible to make a mistake'Ackar, 2009: 'The building is mundane. If you have built an Inika or any of the canister-level sets since 2006, you do not require the assistance of Ackar's instruction booklet. Limbs plug together and snap onto the torso: that is all.'

[bonesiii]

Kohran, there's definitely some truth to what you say, but those three sets aren't really the best comparisons, are they? The first two are titan sets, and Ackar is a canister set, while the Bara Magna sets actually included some very complex sets again -- the vehicles. The canister sets were always fairly simple; in some ways they got more complex later with more joints, etc. (Though they removed gears.)Also, there were still combiners in later years. Look at Gaardus. They just didn't use the Fusion explanation as much.

[man774]

On bs01, It says that the hordika couldn't form a kaita, beuase they laked the mental discepline. I think that the reason for the toa nuva not forming a kaita while in karda nui was that they were split up and couldn't form them (lewa &kopaka were speteratd from gali, and pohatu was sepperated from tahu & onua), also because they would not be wearing the adaptive armor, meaning the phantoka would fall to their deaths, and the mistika would probably be effected by the swamp and be mutated in some way.

[Katuko]

Since the Toa managed to defeat Makuta in 2001 even after getting split up and the Nuva Kaita got beaten by an enemy Bohrok-Kal Kaita, the Toa might simply not have considered it a good option after those first few times. The Kaita wouldn't really have been necessary in the first place, since on both occasions the enemy was defeated by quick thinking rather than the Kaita's direct power. Of course, when their strategy seemed to be "brute force first" then the individual Toa would not have been able to get back up after a Manas trashing, so that's one plus in the Kaita book. They tank physical blows better.The Makuta had Magnetism and stuff, though, and the Piraka too had some powers that could easily have messed up even a Kaita (such as spellbinder vision or "perfect prison"), depending on how much the Kaita power increase allows the Toa to counter special abilities. The Bohrok-Kal viewed it as a threat, and they merged before they stopped the Nuva with their powers. They must have considered it necessary to power up in order to match the Nuva Kaita, but once they did so they had no trouble, and it seemed to me like they hit with overwhelming force in order to shake their enemy's mind(s) and not to overcome physical resistance. Magnetism could have floored the Kaita, for example, but it would not have made it/them pass out and separate.

[Dralcax]

It seems that the only advantage to forming a kaita is to combat a single enemy with brute force. Otherwise simple teamwork will suffice.

[The Legendary TNT]

It seems that the only advantage to forming a kaita is to combat a single enemy with brute force. Otherwise simple teamwork will suffice.

So, couldn't the Inika have formed Kaita to beat up Vezon and Kardas?

[Dralcax]

It seems that the only advantage to forming a kaita is to combat a single enemy with brute force. Otherwise simple teamwork will suffice.

So, couldn't the Inika have formed Kaita to beat up Vezon and Kardas?

They didn't have the same experience and training the Nuva did.

[bonesiii]

Vezon & Kardas were only defeated by a special Zamor Axonn gave the Inika that froze them in time. Probably if it took that to defeat them, then whether six separate beings fight it (without the Zamor) or two fused beings wouldn't make any difference.

[BULiK]

Another point, set wise, is that after 2003 the combiners were almost all new characters, so they just didn't want to reuse the same concept again and made interesting new creatures instead..