The Limits of the Kanohi Mohtrek

[Indigogeek]

Hi all, I've been pondering recentlly. What are the limits of the Kanohi Mohtrek? Could bitil have brought forth past versions of himself pre mutation? Can versions of bitil brought forth also use this power? If so, couldn't one bitil just bring only a couple forth, and those versions bring back a couple, etc, so hay little concentration was needed. Could bitil have escaped the storm by just continuing to make clones? ( this may not work, as if the original bitil were to be destroyed, all of them would be.) sorry, i just have a lot of confusion about the limits of this.

[bonesiii]

Hi all, I've been pondering recentlly. What are the limits of the Kanohi Mohtrek? Could bitil have brought forth past versions of himself pre mutation?

Yes.

 

Can versions of bitil brought forth also use this power?

Oy. Not sure, but maybe. I don't recall anyone ever asking this.

 

If so, couldn't one bitil just bring only a couple forth, and those versions bring back a couple, etc, so hay little concentration was needed. Could bitil have escaped the storm by just continuing to make clones?

I don't see how. More likely he would mess up the past because they would be killed.

[Indigogeek]

 

Hi all, I've been pondering recentlly. What are the limits of the Kanohi Mohtrek? Could bitil have brought forth past versions of himself pre mutation?

Yes.

 

>Can versions of bitil brought forth also use this power?

Oy. Not sure, but maybe. I don't recall anyone ever asking this.

 

If so, couldn't one bitil just bring only a couple forth, and those versions bring back a couple, etc, so hay little concentration was needed. Could bitil have escaped the storm by just continuing to make clones?

I don't see how. More likely he would mess up the past because they would be killed.

 

Mess up the past? What do you mean? Do the actions versions of bitil do reflect on the current bitil? (lets say bitil brings forth a version of himself, and it loses a leg, will current bitil now be missing a leg? will past bitil remember/still lose a .leg?

[Lara White]

I believe that is how it functions, yes.

 

[fishers64]

Could bitil have brought forth past versions of himself pre mutation?

 

Yes, this was verified multiple times. Although it was risky, because the mutagen could mutate those past versions, affecting the past and making things worse.

 

Can versions of bitil brought forth also use this power?

 

Yes, probably. I found an answer that said all the past Bitils summoned would know what their mask power was, and that makes sense - after all, Bitil knew what mask power he had in the past. So I'm going to say that they could probably use it. Of course, that begs the question of Bitil summoning a past version of himself that had already summoned a clone army, whether he would summon that clone army as well. Having a randomly cloned army appear around you and finding yourself using your mask for no apparent reason would be creepy, however. I think after the first time that happened, Bitil would make a mental note to not ask his past versions to make more past versions to avoid that, and since his past versions already knew that, he would avoid that unpleasant experience.

 

If so, couldn't one bitil just bring only a couple forth, and those versions bring back a couple, etc, so hay little concentration was needed. Could bitil have escaped the storm by just continuing to make clones? ( this may not work, as if the original bitil were to be destroyed, all of them would be.)

 

Possible, but like I said, that would send a bunch of Bitil-armies back into the past, which probably could seriously mess things up. And negatory to the energy storm survival thing - if it can kill you, it can also kill all of your past selves you summon, too.

 

 

 

Mess up the past? What do you mean? Do the actions versions of bitil do reflect on the current bitil? (lets say bitil brings forth a version of himself, and it loses a leg, will current bitil now be missing a leg? will past bitil remember/still lose a .leg?

 

 

Bitil considered his Mohtrek a curse as much as a blessing, as he often found himself with injuries at random times and without any memory of what happened, due to being part of future battles.

 

So yes.

 

[Toa Smoke Monster]

What are the limits of the Kanohi Mohtrek?

I believe there is a limit to how many copies of themselves a Mohtrek wearer could make. I think the maximum limit is 50, if I'm not mistaken.

 

As for the others questions, well, everyone else pretty much answered them.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Toa Smoke Monster

[Kumata]

Here's something I always wondered. Past Bitils retain whatever damage they've taken when they return to the past but lose their memory of the time summoned. Couldn't Bitil have scratched messages into a past self's armour, so as to deliver hints from the future?

[bonesiii]

Here's something I always wondered. Past Bitils retain whatever damage they've taken when they return to the past but lose their memory of the time summoned. Couldn't Bitil have scratched messages into a past self's armour, so as to deliver hints from the future?

And here's Exhibit C... or are we now on Exhibit Z yet? -- on why this mask power should not have been used in a story with a rule against time travel.

 

Yes, it would seem that should be possible. We could argue that by luck Bitil isn't that bright, but it's just a mask power -- anyone could presumably procure that power and you'd think someone would think of it in 100,000+ years of life.

 

Unless of course the Great Beings put a rule in the power's programming to prevent that. Perhaps there is some kind of rule in protodermis itself, that applies to all time powers, to adapt them to avoid such things, but I dunno.

[Technus19]

I believe there is a limit to how many copies of themselves a Mohtrek wearer could make. I think the maximum limit is 50, if I'm mistaken.

As for the others questions, well, everyone else pretty much answered them.

Wait couldnt a motrek user bring one past self which could then summon another past self until infinity. Just to be super clear: User 1 summons User 2 who summons User 3 and so forth.This would sperad the mental strain on to all the summoned past selves.Or the strain on the present day wearer could lead to a massive migraine.

[bonesiii]

 

I believe there is a limit to how many copies of themselves a Mohtrek wearer could make. I think the maximum limit is 50, if I'm mistaken.

As for the others questions, well, everyone else pretty much answered them.

Wait couldnt a motrek user bring one past self which could then summon another past self until infinity. Just to be super clear: User 1 summons User 2 who summons User 3 and so forth.This would sperad the mental strain on to all the summoned past selves.Or the strain on the present day wearer could lead to a massive migraine.

Exhibit ZA?

 

Or maybe there's simply a rule on the total copies present regardless of who brings them? Or perhaps only the original user can use the mask on "his end" while the others are locked into a different state?

[fishers64]

 

 

I believe there is a limit to how many copies of themselves a Mohtrek wearer could make. I think the maximum limit is 50, if I'm mistaken. As for the others questions, well, everyone else pretty much answered them.

Wait couldnt a motrek user bring one past self which could then summon another past self until infinity. Just to be super clear: User 1 summons User 2 who summons User 3 and so forth.This would sperad the mental strain on to all the summoned past selves.Or the strain on the present day wearer could lead to a massive migraine.

 

Exhibit ZA? Or maybe there's simply a rule on the total copies present regardless of who brings them? Or perhaps only the original user can use the mask on "his end" while the others are locked into a different state?

I don't know whether there is a "total maximum", but I think I can rule out the second possibility.

7. The final question’s a bit long; when say Bitil is called to the future by a future self does he suddenlydisapear? Or is it just like a duliplicate of his body that gets sent to the future and the effects return to his orginal body? 7) He does disappear, but he gets returned a micro-second after the time he left, so no one notices the disappearance.

So it is actually the real Bitil that gets sent forward.

 

3. And a couple curiosities of my own. Bitil’s mask summons past selves. Well, since he has to tell them why they’re where they are, is this only because they know what they’re supposed to do, because they know what their mask power is and therefore know that Bitil summoned them? 3) Sure

This question is confusing, but I think it means that the duplicates of Bitil arrive in the future with full mental capacity.

Edited April 24, 2013 by fishers64

[Technus19]

3. And a couple curiosities of my own. Bitil’s mask summons past selves. Well, since he has to tell them why they’re where they are, is this only because they know what they’re supposed to do, because they know what their mask power is and therefore know that Bitil summoned them? 3) Sure

Maybe all the bitlis/mothrek users are connected telepathically when summoned sorta like a hive mind.

[Axilus Prime]

I'm wondering how he avoids risk of destroying the time stream. I always used to think he did that by summoning himself from extremely small points in time.

 

Like, say, he has a second of peace and quiet, right before a battle with him in it resumes, at some point in his past. Now if he brought himself from the battle, his allies could lose while he was gone. But what if he summoned himself from one nanosecond during the battle, and then the next nanosecond, and the next, and the next...

 

Basically a load of clones with no significant repercussions despite having summoned them out of a crucial time in his life.

 

Anyone else think this is plausible?

[bonesiii]

I don't know whether there is a "total maximum", but I think I can rule out the second possibility.

Pardon me if I'm just being dense, but I'm not getting how those quotes rule out that possibility or really have anything to do with it. Maybe I didn't word it clearly, but I meant basically that Future Bitil activates his mask, and it reaches back in time to (for simplicity let's just stick with one copy here) Past Bitil, senses whether Past Bitil has that mask, and if so, locks Past Bitil's mask into an mode that prevents it from activating too. So Past Bitil couldn't summon an endless chain of other Past Bitils re: Technus19's concern.

 

Just to explain the idea -- of course, maybe an endless chain IS possible but nobody ever wants to try it.

 

 

3. And a couple curiosities of my own. Bitil’s mask summons past selves. Well, since he has to tell them why they’re where they are, is this only because they know what they’re supposed to do, because they know what their mask power is and therefore know that Bitil summoned them? 3) Sure

Maybe all the bitlis/mothrek users are connected telepathically when summoned sorta like a hive mind.

That quote seems to be saying he has to speak out loud to give them orders. I'd agree it would make sense if not for that quote, though -- because the mask does seem to already mess with the mind, since the Past Bitils forget what happened when they're sent back.

 

 

I'm wondering how he avoids risk of destroying the time stream. I always used to think he did that by summoning himself from extremely small points in time.

Like, say, he has a second of peace and quiet, right before a battle with him in it resumes, at some point in his past. Now if he brought himself from the battle, his allies could lose while he was gone. But what if he summoned himself from one nanosecond during the battle, and then the next nanosecond, and the next, and the next...

Basically a load of clones with no significant repercussions despite having summoned them out of a crucial time in his life.

Anyone else think this is plausible?

Not entirely sure what you're asking. In what specific way, if you could elaborate, are you worried about destroying the time stream? As I understand it, if a Past Bitil is killed, time is messed up, creating an alternate timeline. But it's not like time is destroyed like if the Vahi breaks re: Vakama's Time Trap speech.

 

As for what you're asking if it's possible, I can't tell what you're asking that isn't simply a restatement of what we already know the mask does. Again, pardon if dense. And what allies are you referring to, losing what in what timeframe and context? Do you mean ally clones of himself? I must be missing something here.

Edited April 24, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

 

I don't know whether there is a "total maximum", but I think I can rule out the second possibility.

Pardon me if I'm just being dense, but I'm not getting how those quotes rule out that possibility or really have anything to do with it. Maybe I didn't word it clearly, but I meant basically that Future Bitil activates his mask, and it reaches back in time to (for simplicity let's just stick with one copy here) Past Bitil, senses whether Past Bitil has that mask, and if so, locks Past Bitil's mask into an mode that prevents it from activating too. So Past Bitil couldn't summon an endless chain of other Past Bitils re: Technus19's concern.

 

Just to explain the idea -- of course, maybe an endless chain IS possible but nobody ever wants to try it.

 

What I was trying to establish with those quotes (sorry for not being clear) was that all Past Bitils summoned really are Bitil, with all the capabilities of Bitil, mental and physical thereof, at that particular point in time (which could allow for the daisy-chain theory, as I'm going to call it).

 

Now, I don't know if Bitil can directly control all the time-summoned clones of himself via his mask (of course, he probably should be able to, seeing as the time-summoned clones are all him, and it is his mask ). That second quote seems to suggest he can't, though, and that his mask acts like a summon/sendback switch, nothing more.

 

So I go back and forth on it.

[Indigogeek]

Wait is Bitil aware of the split second he's been sent forward? Like does he relize he was just summoned. If so, couldn't Bitil predict his death is coming soon if he's not being summoned?

[fishers64]

Wait is Bitil aware of the split second he's been sent forward? Like does he relize he was just summoned. If so, couldn't Bitil predict his death is coming soon if he's not being summoned?

 

I don't know about the first, but the second question is unlikely. Impending death would likely cause Bitil to use his mask more to ward off certain doom, then if the next few days had him quietly relaxing at Destral. I doubt Bitil could predict his death based on it.

[Master Inika]

I feel like this was the last 2008 mask power LEGO thought of, a few minutes before their deadline.

 

"Hey, what if one of them could summon clones of himself from the past?"

"Can't do it. We'd have to disclose if the clones could summon more clones-"

"No time! Past cloning it is."

 

 

I'm wondering how he avoids risk of destroying the time stream. I always used to think he did that by summoning himself from extremely small points in time.

 

Like, say, he has a second of peace and quiet, right before a battle with him in it resumes, at some point in his past. Now if he brought himself from the battle, his allies could lose while he was gone. But what if he summoned himself from one nanosecond during the battle, and then the next nanosecond, and the next, and the next...

 

Basically a load of clones with no significant repercussions despite having summoned them out of a crucial time in his life.

 

Anyone else think this is plausible?

I assumed that, no matter how long Bitil is summoned to the future, he returns at the exact moment he was summoned, as if he never left. Hypothetically, this could have significantly reduced his lifespan, but then, so did the energy storms.

 

One has to wonder why Bitil kept the mask if he hated it so much.

[bonesiii]

One has to wonder why Bitil kept the mask if he hated it so much.

Hate is such a strong word. But if we are to use it, he's a being who drained all his moral light, so you could say he just hates it less than the alternatives. Anyways, this is what BS01 says:

 

Bitil considered his Mohtrek a curse as much as a blessing, as he often found himself with injuries at random times and without any memory of what happened, due to being part of future battles.

So it's a half-half thing, if we're to take that wording literally (and it says nothing about how he values the alternatives). Also keep in mind he's very ambitious. And in the Bitil quote at the top of the mask's BS01 page, I'd say he sounds rather happy with the mask:

These aren't just doubles — they are me. They are all me. Each one plucked from my past to aid me in the present. An instant army, ever loyal, and I can call on as many as I need.

Incidentally, didn't notice until now the end of that quote seems to imply there's no limit to the number... Although the page goes on to state that the concentration needed goes up for each one, but that's just the present one.

Edited April 24, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

Probably no choice. Maybe it was the mask that he thought would help him the most in Karda Nui, and then he got stuck with it. Or more likely, ever since Teridax's plan set in masks are in short supply (seeing as Matoran are the main mask-makers, and I doubt many would volunteer to make immoral masks for a Makuta).

[Technus19]

From what i remeber they (gorast,krika) were locked into their bug forms by pit matagen so maybe he couldnt take it off any more?, And could he summon clones from before his mutation?

Edited April 25, 2013 by Technus19

[Hitoshura]

Yes, he could summon pre-mutation forms of him, but we don't see that in the comics due to artist licence.Which leaves me thinking, when a past self is transported to the future, would the time stop for him? Like, let's just say Bitil was at a "Makuta Meeting"(sorry, only thing I could think of ), and a future self uses the mask to bring the Bitil in the meeting to the future. Would time freeze there? Or the other Makuta just see him disappear? I'm thinking it's most, or very likely it's the former, but I'm not too sure. Besides, the latter sounds a bit absurd to me.

[boston100]

I always thought it was kinda god moding.

just sayin

[bonesiii]

Yes, he could summon pre-mutation forms of him, but we don't see that in the comics due to artist licence.Which leaves me thinking, when a past self is transported to the future, would the time stop for him? Like, let's just say Bitil was at a "Makuta Meeting"(sorry, only thing I could think of ), and a future self uses the mask to bring the Bitil in the meeting to the future. Would time freeze there? Or the other Makuta just see him disappear? I'm thinking it's most, or very likely it's the former, but I'm not too sure. Besides, the latter sounds a bit absurd to me.

Did you see fishers' quotes up there? This one in particular:

 

He does disappear, but he gets returned a micro-second after the time he left, so no one notices the disappearance.

Not entirely sure if that answers your question but seems to as I read it.

 

I'm getting a sense from both your post and Axilus Prime's earlier that some of you might be having trouble with the idea of time in the past versus the "field trip in the future", but I don't want to put words in yall's mouth, and this is a confusing subject with many different possible interpretations of most statements about it. But if it helps, just for the record and in case anyone is confused by this, as soon as a Past Bitil goes forward, time in the setting where he was yanked away from is irrelevant. It doesn't "stop", really, it just has no relation to him anymore because he's not there (or then) anymore. Now he's moved to the future time, and he could stay in the future time for what to him would be hours, and still go back to just a micro-second after he left the past (as recorded by the past).

The only real difficulty might be that Past Bitil would seem to suddenly change positions. Like a jump-cut in film; where maybe he has his right arm raised but suddenly he no longer does. So the witnesses in that context might notice that oddity (and correctly attribute it to his mask since they can see the shape on his face, maybe), unless the mask forces them to move to the same position they left from.

 

Anywho, sorry if this was already clear and I'm wasting time, just hoping this helps.

[Katuko]

The only real difficulty might be that Past Bitil would seem to suddenly change positions. Like a jump-cut in film; where maybe he has his right arm raised but suddenly he no longer does. So the witnesses in that context might notice that oddity (and correctly attribute it to his mask since they can see the shape on his face, maybe), unless the mask forces them to move to the same position they left from.

They would probably be returned to exactly the same position and such, but it'd be rather amusing to have a formal meeting and then suddenly one guy goes "BBLAAAARRRGGGGH" because his arm was lost in future combat.

[Hitoshura]

 

The only real difficulty might be that Past Bitil would seem to suddenly change positions. Like a jump-cut in film; where maybe he has his right arm raised but suddenly he no longer does. So the witnesses in that context might notice that oddity (and correctly attribute it to his mask since they can see the shape on his face, maybe), unless the mask forces them to move to the same position they left from.

They would probably be returned to exactly the same position and such, but it'd be rather amusing to have a formal meeting and then suddenly one guy goes "BBLAAAARRRGGGGH" because his arm was lost in future combat.

From reading this post I thought of another question. Not sure if it was answered, but if a past Bitil's arm got chopped of, then how will the present Bitil respond? Does his arm just disappear?

[Katuko]

From reading this post I thought of another question. Not sure if it was answered, but if a past Bitil's arm got chopped of, then how will the present Bitil respond? Does his arm just disappear?

Pretty much, yes. And if past!Bitil dies, the present one will as well. No word on what happens if past!Bitil loses an arm and then decides to get a mechanical replacement, though. There's also no concrete word on what happens with minor damage. If past!Bitil gets a scratch, he would presumably have time to heal that before he reaches the present time where the battle is currently taking place. On the other hand, just getting that scratch means that the past has changed, and so things might happen differently.And this is why I'd much, much prefer the mask to just clone the user in his or her present form and sync damage between all of them. But no, convoluted time shenanigans it is.

[Vote Saxon]

Maybe the Mohtrek's effect can be compared to the time travelling in "Looper"?

[Hitoshura]

 

From reading this post I thought of another question. Not sure if it was answered, but if a past Bitil's arm got chopped of, then how will the present Bitil respond? Does his arm just disappear?

Pretty much, yes. And if past!Bitil dies, the present one will as well. No word on what happens if past!Bitil loses an arm and then decides to get a mechanical replacement, though. There's also no concrete word on what happens with minor damage. If past!Bitil gets a scratch, he would presumably have time to heal that before he reaches the present time where the battle is currently taking place. On the other hand, just getting that scratch means that the past has changed, and so things might happen differently. And this is why I'd much, much prefer the mask to just clone the user in his or her present form and sync damage between all of them. But no, convoluted time shenanigans it is.

I knew that, just I was thinking of how. Does he just disappear into thin air and he won't feel anything? Or will he just feel agonizing pain? The former seems likely but I'm posting it here because I have doubts. And when he dies, I'm just going to ask the above questions.

[Katuko]

I knew that, just I was thinking of how. Does he just disappear into thin air and he won't feel anything? Or will he just feel agonizing pain? The former seems likely but I'm posting it here because I have doubts. And when he dies, I'm just going to ask the above questions.

We haven't seen it happen in the story, and I don't think Greg has mentioned details about it. Dying should make him blip out of existence immediately unless there are some Back to The Future-esque ripple effects going on, but given the sheer amount of stuff that can happen in the timeline between a past version dying and the present rolling about, I don't think there's much we can say to or from.There's also been a mention about alternate timelines being spawned when a Mohtrek summon dies. One in which the character died in whatever time they were summoned from, and the one you are already in, where they vanish somehow. What this does to the past - or your perception of the past - has gone unmentioned.There was a moment in 8-Bit Theater (a webcomic) where the 4 Light Warriors speak with Sarda, an almighty sage. At some point, he threatens to use his abhorrently strong magic to unmake them from existence, like he did with "the 5th Light Warrior, Bard". Naturally, none of them remember Bard, nor do the comic readers who's been there since the Light Warriors first met up. Sarda apparently remembers, though, since it was he who unmade Bard's existence.Earlier in the comic's run, there was also a single-comic montage where the Light Warriors traveled across the land, gained power, defeated enemies, became legends, etc. Then bam, they were back to where they started the comic strip, with only a vague recollection of having lost something. The reason for this setback? Sarda was messing with time and space again for his own amusement. The comic served as a sort of teaser of what was to come later in the story (as much of a story as it had), but that reboot clearly turned back time a significant amount for everyone else in the world. They had no idea of what they had just missed, either, and events ultimately transpired in an entirely different way.Time travel and erasing people/events messes up the entire timeline. It's the classic butterfly paradox. I mean, let's say I met you 2 years ago. We go into a battle as allies, and I use a Mohtrek to summon a clone from 3 years back. The clone dies, and thus I die. What happens to you? Will you see me vanish, and that's it? ("Oh no, he died!") Or will I vanish, and then history will be rewritten so that we never met? ("Wait... was there someone here?") Maybe you would be in the battle with a different ally, who you are equally familiar with? (No apparent change from your perspective.) Maybe you'd never have gone to the battle at all if I hadn't been there! (Alternate timeline.)

[Toa Zaz]

So if the Bitil from farthest in the past dies, they all die?

[Hitoshura]

Yes.

[ToaKapura1234]

Time travel and erasing people/events messes up the entire timeline. It's the classic butterfly paradox. I mean, let's say I met you 2 years ago. We go into a battle as allies, and I use a Mohtrek to summon a clone from 3 years back. The clone dies, and thus I die. What happens to you? Will you see me vanish, and that's it? ("Oh no, he died!") Or will I vanish, and then history will be rewritten so that we never met? ("Wait... was there someone here?") Maybe you would be in the battle with a different ally, who you are equally familiar with? (No apparent change from your perspective.) Maybe you'd never have gone to the battle at all if I hadn't been there! (Alternate timeline.)

But if we never met, then maybe you never went to the battle either, which means you didn't summon a past self who died which means we did meet which means that ARGH! PARADOX!!!

I'm getting a sense from both your post and Axilus Prime's earlier that some of you might be having trouble with the idea of time in the past versus the "field trip in the future", but I don't want to put words in yall's mouth, and this is a confusing subject with many different possible interpretations of most statements about it. But if it helps, just for the record and in case anyone is confused by this, as soon as a Past Bitil goes forward, time in the setting where he was yanked away from is irrelevant. It doesn't "stop", really, it just has no relation to him anymore because he's not there (or then) anymore. Now he's moved to the future time, and he could stay in the future time for what to him would be hours, and still go back to just a micro-second after he left the past (as recorded by the past).

But if Bitil uses the infinite chain thing (assuming that works) to summon 600 million Bitils all from one milisecond after another, then Bitil is absent for ten whole minutes in the past.

 

Edit: Also, what if say, a Toa, uses a Mohtrek to summon a past self, but the past self stays for many years and gets sent back significantly older?

Edited April 27, 2013 by ToaKapura1234

[Technus19]

Edit: Also, what if say, a Toa, uses a Mohtrek to summon a past self, but the past self stays for many years and gets sent back significantly older?

The user has to maintain a focus on said summon thats what the infinte chain for is each person only summons i copy, but keeping one for years could lead to headaches (probably).They re robots they dont age apart from the toa-turaga cycle.

[bonesiii]

 

Time travel and erasing people/events messes up the entire timeline. It's the classic butterfly paradox. I mean, let's say I met you 2 years ago. We go into a battle as allies, and I use a Mohtrek to summon a clone from 3 years back. The clone dies, and thus I die. What happens to you? Will you see me vanish, and that's it? ("Oh no, he died!") Or will I vanish, and then history will be rewritten so that we never met? ("Wait... was there someone here?") Maybe you would be in the battle with a different ally, who you are equally familiar with? (No apparent change from your perspective.) Maybe you'd never have gone to the battle at all if I hadn't been there! (Alternate timeline.)

But if we never met, then maybe you never went to the battle either, which means you didn't summon a past self who died which means we did meet which means that ARGH! PARADOX!!!

Well, what I'm about to say is NOT a canon answer, but if we assume that it works by pure timeline theory, then we could answer this clearly, and it may be helpful to work through it bit by bit to get a better idea of what canon possibilities there might be. To save time, to begin with I'll link to my post recentishly about how basic timeline theory works (just the part from "First of all" to "With me so far?"); if yall are already familiar with that, read on. Now let's give Katuko's basic scenario with the labeling scheme explained there. First, for Katuko's "I", I'll use Bitil, and for "you" I'll use Bob. There will be three major timelines involved, A, B, and C.

 

3 years ago, Past A begins, in which Bitil survived all summonings. One year later in Past A, Bitil meets Bob. Then two more years later, Bitil and Bob go into battle as allies, and Bitil uses a Mohtrek to grab Past Bitil from 3 years ago.

 

Now the timeline splits -- Past Bitil either survives or does not. If he survives (Future A), then at the end of the battle, Past Bitil is sent back to 3 years ago, with his memory of the time trip erased, and becomes the Bitil who meets Bob and later enters battle with him and survives to summon himself. Bob A lives on from that point, seeing whatever happens after that battle. This version (Timeline A) must happen because we need Bitil to survive for a while to use the Mohtrek 3 years later, ironically.

 

This much is simple, but what happens if he dies (Future B and its consequent, Timeline C) is what we're curious about.

 

Under strict timeline theory, Bob would simply see Current Bitil still there in Future B, but Past Bitil would be laying there dead. This is the part that is most questionable whether it happens canonically, so bear with me. But this is just what we would have to conclude IF the power follows pure timeline mechanics, with no "Back to the Future" extra effects. Whenever Current Bitil loses concentration of the mask (possibly through being killed because he needed Past Bitil to win the battle), the body of Past Bitil jumps back into the past. Under this explanation, the Bob who is in this timeline (call him Bob B) never gets to find out what would have happened if he wouldn't have met Bitil, and the Bitil of his present (Bitil B) is still there, surviving or dying in that battle depending on purely normal factors at that time, unrelated to time travel.

 

However, this would probably now NOT be considered the Core Dimension. This dimension led to the death of Bitil, inescapably, so we follow the effects of that. My guess is that this timeline is what is being referred to by "an alternate timeline is created" (in which Bitil didn't die). So even though the story would have started here, we now consider it alternate, and our story leaves it.

 

We go back to 3 years ago, and pick up things from there in the third timeline, Timeline C, with Bitil being a dead body that suddenly appears in place of his living body that had been there a millisecond ago. This is now Past C.

 

So Bitil C is a dead body, and the Bob in this timeline is now called Bob C, and won't meet Bitil. Whatever consequences for Bob or the battle 3 years later there might be, they all happen in Past C, which 3 years later is renamed Future C (according to our "omniscient" point of view and labeling scheme choice; to those inside the timeline who don't know of the alternate timeline, nothing related to Bitil happens 3 years later, so we could just call the whole thing Future C from the point at which the dead body arrives, but I'd rather not as I think it's clearer to stick to the rule that the Past/Future labeling split always happens at the same temporal location as measured by clocks, even if in different dimensional locations).

 

This explanation would work for me, if Greg had ever said "yes, we follow strict timeline theory in Bionicle" (although I think I would still rather have Bionicle not go there at all). But instead the rule we got was "we have no time travel in Bionicle", and then he made an exception to the rule without clearly explaining things.

 

Note that the three different timelines do NOT branch from the same point in time, so the labels are a bit strange here. At "3 years ago", you have a choice fork that splits into either Timeline A (Bitil survives) or Timeline C (dead Bitil suddenly appears). Only "3 years later" after Past A does it split into Future A (Bitil survives) and Future B (Past Bitil dies and eventually the body is sent back into Timeline C). I would normally never group them this way, but my labeling system has a rule that the labels go in whatever order follows the order of causality. The odd order is a result of the odd time-looping power of the Kanohi Mohtrek.

 

Likely the story would follow the events of Past A (Bitil lives until in the battle he summons Past Bitil, and Past Bitil dies), and then leap to following the events of Future C (Bitil has now been dead for three years), so the label "Core Dimension" would follow that definition, but this would probably be purely be the choice of the story authors and have nothing to do with temporal physics itself.

 

So anyways, that's one possible answer.

 

A different answer could have this exact same scenario in terms of what actually happens, but a different interpretation of which one the story writers consider the "alternate" timeline. It could mean that the "dead body appears" timeline never becomes the Core Dimension according to the authors. IF this is true and IF there's no additional effects beyond pure timeline theory, then users of the Mohtrek really wouldn't need to worry about whether their clones live or die. They would live on regardless. But methinks this is probably not what Greg had in mind.

 

Other answers become possible if, in addition to time travel, the power causes other effects that deviate from pure timeline theory.

 

In other words, if the killing of a Past Bitil causes other time travel and dimensional travel effects including consciousness travel (as seen in LOST with Desmond in the episode The Constant, for example).

 

I think the answer I would personally like best is this.

 

Use strict timeline theory and the "likely" definition of "Core Dimension" described above, but let the consciousnesses of witnesses of the death jump into Future C, just like our focus as readers jumps. So all witnesses of the battle death stay with the "Core Dimension".

 

I have thought a lot about this sort of "law of time" before, and it can actually make sense if there is something unique about minds that transcends normal material physics. This can be explained in many ways. The explanation I prefer relies on a physics secret from my non-Bionicle stories (to be revealed as a twist, yet it makes some sense from real physics so could work in any story), so I can't say it. LOST seems to imply something similar to it, as both consciousnesses and whole people can time travel. In this case we could most easily just say it's part of the mask power.

 

Regardless of the explanation, I call it the mental timeshield theory, as Star Trek has explained a similar effect with "temporal shields".

 

To explain this with the labeling scheme, pick up the same explanation I just gave at "This much is simple, but what happens if he dies (Future B and its consequent, Timeline C) is what we're curious about." From Future B, Past Bitil is sent back in time 3 years and becomes Bitil C, and Bob C in that timeline lives three years of his life unaware of Bitil. But the mind of Bob B, who just witnessed the death of Past Bitil, jumps "sideways" into Bob C.

 

Under pure mental timeshield theory, the mind of Bob C actually ceases to exist. Under the physics in LOST's The Constant, it would swap bodies into Bob B, so Bob C would suddenly see living Bitil B and the dead body of Past Bitil (and would be really freaked out ).

 

What I prefer is what I call the dual-mind timeshield theory, where (in this analogy) Bob keeps both memories, in one body.

 

Now he is, if you will, Bob BC. He mainly remembers the past of Bob B; meeting Bitil 2 years ago, entering battle with Bitil, seeing the Mohtrek used, and Past Bitil killed. But he is also aware, in a sort of dual consciousness, of the past of Bob C, who never met Bitil at all. The gaining of these two memories will enable him to conclude that his consciousness jumped, and also he will get to find out what happens as a result of Bitil dying three years ago. Likely this will be so momentous to him that from the perspective of people around him in Timeline C, Bob's life will immediately change and he'll want to go investigate what other effects of Bitil's death caused the two timelines to be different.

 

As for Bitil B (the one who used the Mohtrek and then saw Past Bitil die), the moment he sends the body back, the mindshielding effect hits him, but for him it's a bad thing.

 

The "Bitil C" that his mind is supposed to jump in is at best just metal armor (or if Bitil was a human, a skeleton surrounded by rot, dirt, and maggots). So Bitil B's mind dies. The body of Bitil B, in Future B, probably slumps over dead right then, or perhaps becomes a "blank slate" mind, like the perfect amnesia, not even knowing language, etc. Under The Constant's physics, a human in this position would probably suffer a severe nosebleed and then slump over dead.

 

Of course, with the Red Star in play, maybe a Mohtrek user (I don't know if Makuta can be revived at all, so let's say Toa Joe) would have their mind transferred into the new body at that point in time.

 

Then there's the "temporal black hole" possibility, in which the death of Past Bitil makes all the Bitils disappear catastrophically and the whole timeline seems to unravel around you (you being Bob), until you die... or are transferred into another Bob, etc.

 

Yarrrrrrr...

 

 

 

I'm getting a sense from both your post and Axilus Prime's earlier that some of you might be having trouble with the idea of time in the past versus the "field trip in the future", but I don't want to put words in yall's mouth, and this is a confusing subject with many different possible interpretations of most statements about it. But if it helps, just for the record and in case anyone is confused by this, as soon as a Past Bitil goes forward, time in the setting where he was yanked away from is irrelevant. It doesn't "stop", really, it just has no relation to him anymore because he's not there (or then) anymore. Now he's moved to the future time, and he could stay in the future time for what to him would be hours, and still go back to just a micro-second after he left the past (as recorded by the past).

But if Bitil uses the infinite chain thing (assuming that works) to summon 600 million Bitils all from one milisecond after another, then Bitil is absent for ten whole minutes in the past.

 

Edit: Also, what if say, a Toa, uses a Mohtrek to summon a past self, but the past self stays for many years and gets sent back significantly older?

1) Most likely the mask has a rule against that kind of "rebounding"; that as soon as a Bitil is grabbed, the moments a little before and after that are now permanently off-limits. (As for how long "moments" would be, no idea, but enough that for the majority of the time Bitil would be visible to observers.) And combining this with the "put back in the same exact pose" rule, the only noticeable difference would be that new armor damage might suddenly appear every few seconds (or if the "moments" are small enough, seem to "fade to worse").

 

2) In addition to Technus's post, all mask powers have rather severe limitations as long as it's a major effect (rather than very weak "always on" powers), and I'd say time travel is a WAY major effect. So I'd think a few hours at most is all they could stay. For a Toa, definitely no longer than one sleep-cycle at the very longest, regardless of the mask's energy limitations, since they would of course lose focus when they fall asleep. That wouldn't apply to Bitil, since Makuta (in their gaseous state) don't need sleep, so the energy limit would be his maximum. And to learn that we would need to hear from Greg (although I assume that bringing forward two past selves makes it drain twice as fast, etc.).

Edited April 28, 2013 by bonesiii

[ToaKapura1234]

Other answers become possible if, in addition to time travel, the power causes other effects that deviate from pure timeline theory.

 

In other words, if the killing of a Past Bitil causes other time travel and dimensional travel effects including consciousness travel (as seen in LOST with Desmond in the episode The Constant, for example).

 

Use strict timeline theory and the "likely" definition of "Core Dimension" described above, but let the consciousnesses of witnesses of the death jump into Future C, just like our focus as readers jumps. So all witnesses of the battle death stay with the "Core Dimension".

 

I have thought a lot about this sort of "law of time" before, and it can actually make sense if there is something unique about minds that transcends normal material physics. This can be explained in many ways. The explanation I prefer relies on a physics secret from my non-Bionicle stories (to be revealed as a twist, yet it makes some sense from real physics so could work in any story), so I can't say it. LOST seems to imply something similar to it, as both consciousnesses and whole people can time travel. In this case we could most easily just say it's part of the mask power.

 

To explain this with the labeling scheme, pick up the same explanation I just gave at "This much is simple, but what happens if he dies (Future B and its consequent, Timeline C) is what we're curious about." From Future B, Past Bitil is sent back in time 3 years and becomes Bitil C, and Bob C in that timeline lives three years of his life unaware of Bitil. But the mind of Bob B, who just witnessed the death of Past Bitil, jumps "sideways" into Bob C.

 

Under pure mental timeshield theory, the mind of Bob C actually ceases to exist. Under the physics in LOST's The Constant, it would swap bodies into Bob B, so Bob C would suddenly see living Bitil B and the dead body of Past Bitil (and would be really freaked out ).

 

What I prefer is what I call the dual-mind timeshield theory, where (in this analogy) Bob keeps both memories, in one body.

 

Now he is, if you will, Bob BC. He mainly remembers the past of Bob B; meeting Bitil 2 years ago, entering battle with Bitil, seeing the Mohtrek used, and Past Bitil killed. But he is also aware, in a sort of dual consciousness, of the past of Bob C, who never met Bitil at all. The gaining of these two memories will enable him to conclude that his consciousness jumped, and also he will get to find out what happens as a result of Bitil dying three years ago. Likely this will be so momentous to him that from the perspective of people around him in Timeline C, Bob's life will immediately change and he'll want to go investigate what other effects of Bitil's death caused the two timelines to be different.

 

Of course, with the Red Star in play, maybe a Mohtrek user (I don't know if Makuta can be revived at all, so let's say Toa Joe) would have their mind transferred into the new body at that point in time.

 

Then there's the "temporal black hole" possibility, in which the death of Past Bitil makes all the Bitils disappear catastrophically and the whole timeline seems to unravel around you (you being Bob), until you die... or are transferred into another Bob, etc.

 

Yarrrrrrr...

 

 

Edit: Also, what if say, a Toa, uses a Mohtrek to summon a past self, but the past self stays for many years and gets sent back significantly older?

1) Most likely the mask has a rule against that kind of "rebounding"; that as soon as a Bitil is grabbed, the moments a little before and after that are now permanently off-limits. (As for how long "moments" would be, no idea, but enough that for the majority of the time Bitil would be visible to observers.) And combining this with the "put back in the same exact pose" rule, the only noticeable difference would be that new armor damage might suddenly appear every few seconds (or if the "moments" are small enough, seem to "fade to worse").

 

2) In addition to Technus's post, all mask powers have rather severe limitations as long as it's a major effect (rather than very weak "always on" powers), and I'd say time travel is a WAY major effect. So I'd think a few hours at most is all they could stay. For a Toa, definitely no longer than one sleep-cycle at the very longest, regardless of the mask's energy limitations, since they would of course lose focus when they fall asleep. That wouldn't apply to Bitil, since Makuta (in their gaseous state) don't need sleep, so the energy limit would be his maximum. And to learn that we would need to hear from Greg (although I assume that bringing forward two past selves makes it drain twice as fast, etc.).

1. Well, that makes about as much since as possible with time travel, but what if Bob's in another dimension? Which timeline can he return to? Both? And do Bob's memories get altered immediately, or when he returns to his dimension or never?

 

2. But what if Bitil became an uber Makuta like the one in The Kingdom by absorbing all other Makuta and maybe even the antidermis pool?

 

Edit: Also, could you steal the mask, weapons, armor, etc. from past Bitl and/or give him new stuff?

Edited April 28, 2013 by ToaKapura1234

[bonesiii]

1. Well, that makes about as much since as possible with time travel, but what if Bob's in another dimension? Which timeline can he return to? Both? And do Bob's memories get altered immediately, or when he returns to his dimension or never?

2. But what if Bitil became an uber Makuta like the one in The Kingdom by absorbing all other Makuta and maybe even the antidermis pool?

Edit: Also, could you steal the mask, weapons, armor, etc. from past Bitl and/or give him new stuff?

1) Well, under my mental timeshield theory we're already inventing rules beyond strict timeline theory anyways, so we could make up rules to make any option work.

 

He could go to whichever dimension he traveled to, as long as this Bob originated in the dimension that the dead body of Bitil was sent to. (That's most likely.) Or we could say that since he's not there in the target dimension, that Bob would die, while Dimensional Traveler Bob would be unaffected. Under that option, then we could say that when Traveler Bob comes back, he gets the memories, or we could say that if the memories don't immediately enter a body they dissipate into nothing and Traveler Bob would simply come home, with no result.

 

There's really no way to judge which would be the case, without getting very specific into mechanisms of why all this would happen. As it is, the only real justification I'm giving for the dual-mind timeshield theory is personal preference (and really a second choice; my top preference is pure timeline theory because it's so neat and clean).

 

So whatever the writer would prefer could work.

 

2) I'm not sure which part of my post in your quote this is direct at, so not sure what to say. What are you asking?

 

3) I was wondering the same myself, and really no idea. My gut instinct would be that whatever matter is brought forward must go back (what goes up must come down, etc.). So if you took Past Bitil's mask, it would disappear anyways when Current Bitil stopped focusing. What I'm not sure about is the giving of new stuff to him. Like, say you splash paint on him, does the paint go back? I has no idearzorz. I guess it comes down to authorial preference again.

[Technus19]

2. But what if Bitil became an uber Makuta like the one in The Kingdom by absorbing all other Makuta and maybe even the antidermis pool?

Makuta (teridax) didnt gain power rather grew in size and mind AKA he became fat and smart.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Technus19

[fishers64]

 

2. But what if Bitil became an uber Makuta like the one in The Kingdom by absorbing all other Makuta and maybe even the antidermis pool?

Makuta (teridax) didnt gain power rather grew in size and mind AKA he became fat and smart.

I thought it was "fat and dumb", considering that he had to divide his mind to absorb the wills of Nidiki and Krekka.

 

Anyway, not sure what this has to do with the Mohtrek, and I got lost somewhere where all the Future A's and C's came out with no B's, creating a headache of temporal proportions. I guess if Bitil became "an uber-Makuta" he could bring more copies of himself back from the past and keep them in the future for longer. But not indefinitely; eventually he would have to send them back and the alternate universe thing would happen.

 

I'm pretty sure Bitil in the present is unaffected by his use of his mask in the present - only future uses of the mask affect Bitil in the present. That's the canon answer, and if I haven't already quoted it, here it is:

 

 

8. Let’s say, that sometime before Bitil was sent to Karda Nui, he fought a Toa of Ice. The Toa had frozen Bitil in super hard ice, but Bitil was able to survive via Ice Resistance and kill the Toa. If that Toa had survived, he would decided to go rouge and kill Teridax.

In present time, Bitil uses his Mohtrek to summon himself right before he is trapped in his icy prison. Past Bitil is mutated by the swamp waters, and Present Bitil eventually has to sent Past Bitil back. But without his Ice Resistance power, Past Bitil cannot survive the super hard ice, and dies.

Now that Toa of Ice goes rouge and kills Teridax, That means Bitil is never sent to Karda Nui, and never summons himself (from that time anyways). This creates a paradox. Is the timeline now ultimately destroyed?

8) First, how do you know mutated Bitil does not have his ice resistance power? But let’s say he doesn’t -- what would happen is you would create an alternate timeline where Bitil died in the past, and Teridax dies, etc. Just as in the Kingdom or Dark Mirror, when something happens, all the other things that could have happened end up in alternative universes of their own.

[ToaKapura1234]

2) I'm not sure which part of my post in your quote this is direct at, so not sure what to say. What are you asking?

What if he did that and then summoned a past Bitil, kept him in the future for years, and then sent him back?