Kraata Reversion

[slifer3000]

Could it be possible to take a Kraata and extract antidermis essence from it? Like, take Krika's essence out of a kraata he made?

[fishers64]

Um, Kraata are antidermis. Nothing to be extracted there. What do you mean by essence?

 

Whether it is possible to convert solid antidermis to a gas is unknown (by me).

[slifer3000]

I mean, taking a Kraata and reversing the process used to make it to form a Makuta.

[fishers64]

I mean, taking a Kraata and reversing the process used to make it to form a Makuta.

 

I don't know about that, but I doubt you could take one Rahkshi and use it to clone the Makuta that it was from. Unless you were like a Great Being.

 

Another possibility is taking a bunch of Kraata and melting them, and collecting the gaseous antidermis from the result. I'm not sure that would work. (I would think I would need more than one Kraata to get enough mass for a Makuta.)

 

Possible, but not likely.

[slifer3000]

How much gas do you need to make a Makuta?

[Makuta of Time]

Well that's the thing, we don't know. Such things are in the knowledge of the GB's. They have a lot of power, and they can do almost anything. It would probably be as much used as in the Hindenburg

[Sumiki]

I don't think it'd work unless you got enough Kraata from the same Makuta - otherwise you'd have a bunch of antidermis from a bunch of different Makuta floating around and it'd never become a cohesive clone of any particular Makuta.

[Art Vandelay]

You would need a lot more antidermis than you would be able to extract from Kraata first of all (If you could extract any antidermis at all from a Kraata. We don't know much about the chemistry of antidermis or how it works, but I would assume that every sample of antidermis has a mind of some sort, and trying to fill Makuta armor with antidermis from Kraata would create a weird Rahkshi in Makuta armor thing. I don't think you can create a Makuta from any old antidermis. Only the Mata Nui or the Great Beings can create new Makuta. (But Makuta weren't originally made of pure antidermis.) But once the antidermis is created, it has a mind forever. Of course, Makuta can create new antidermis beings in the form of Kraata because it is a part of their essence, but again I don't think it would work in reverse.

Edited June 3, 2013 by MX5Miata

[Click]

Well, Makuta can regenerate (I believe it is one of their powers) or else they would just create Kraata until they were nothing, so assuming this was possible (although I've never seen any canon examples in the story), there should be some point where the Makuta's sentience could take over and their natural regenerative powers would kick in, finishing the job.Still, I'm not sure this would work. The only ways I can think of to revert solid antidermis to gaseous would probably involve killing the Kraata. From what I've seen, the Kraata emerge from the Makuta fully alive, probably borrowing from their life force. In order for the possibly-resulting Makuta to form, it would need more life energy, theoretically.

[bonesiii]

Could it be possible to take a Kraata and extract antidermis essence from it? Like, take Krika's essence out of a kraata he made?

Firstly, 'essence of Makuta' was the term used in 2003 for antidermis, before we knew that term (it was used in 2006 as a mysterious substance briefly, until it was confirmed the two are the same). So if that's what you had in mind, Krika's essence is the antidermis of the Kraata. And since the Kraata is made of that essence, extract anything from the Kraata and you've extracted Krika's essence.

 

But what makes it "essence" and whether that can become a new Makuta is unknown. My guess it it would just make a really fat Kraata. In terms of what the mind is like -- maybe a really smart one too, but inherently subservient to the mind of Krika.

 

Unless, of course, you were a Great Being or Mata Nui... maybe. The GBs made the pool of antidermis which seemingly had a huge number of minds in a hivemind-like state. It seems that there is a finite number of these minds, and the Makuta that were made (and those killed after the Convocation, etc.) subtracted from this original total. So, apparently the GBs created all the Makuta's minds, and Mata Nui just oversaw the making of the individual bodies that these minds were moved into. So I'd say most likely it takes a Great Being (or the knowledge of the GBs) to make a truly new Makuta, without subtracting from the minds still existing in that pool.

 

I mean, taking a Kraata and reversing the process used to make it to form a Makuta.

Reversing the process would technically be Krika (to continue the example) re-absorbing the Kraata.

 

How much gas do you need to make a Makuta?

Keep in mind Makuta were not originally in a gaseous state; they were solid biomechanical antidermis. That aside, Makuta Teridax was still a Makuta when he was down to the mass of Turaga Dume, with no hint that that was especially dangerous.

 

IMO it's not about mass, it's about having a unique mental identity with a center of mental identity present in a particular place. Whatever mass is with that center is the individual Makuta, in whatever form it is in. Whatever mass that gets separated is still subservient to that identity's mind, but remotely, whether in the form of a Kraata or just the antidermis as in the projectiles of the Piraka.

 

You would need a lot more antidermis than you would be able to extract from Kraata first of all (If you could extract any antidermis at all from a Kraata. We don't know much about the chemistry of antidermis or how it works, but I would assume that every sample of antidermis has a mind of some sort, and trying to fill Makuta armor with antidermis from Kraata would create a weird Rahkshi in Makuta armor thing. I don't think you can create a Makuta from any old antidermis. Only the Great Beings can create new Makuta. (But Makuta weren't originally made of pure antidermis.) But once the antidermis is created, it has a mind forever. Of course, Makuta can create new antidermis beings in the form of Kraata because it is a part of their essence, but again I don't think it would work in reverse.

Where was it stated that Makuta weren't originally pure antidermis? I've never heard anything to that effect from any canon source. The only part not antidermic was the protosteel armor, and that's the same now as it's always been in terms of percentage, apparently.

 

Well, Makuta can regenerate (I believe it is one of their powers) or else they would just create Kraata until they were nothing, so assuming this was possible (although I've never seen any canon examples in the story), there should be some point where the Makuta's sentience could take over and their natural regenerative powers would kick in, finishing the job.

Note that Teridax absorbed Nidhiki, Krekka, and Nivawk to regain mass he'd lost. Apparently making Kraata would take out a tiny amount of mass, and then he'd need to absorb something to convert the something into more antidermis somehow (IMO probably tearing the protodermis molecules apart and reforming them in switched-up arrangements to make antidermis molecules). The something might have to be a living being, or at least organic matter. So they do not seem to have a regeneration power in the sense of just flipping a switch, glow a little and they're magically replenished or whatnot.

 

Still, I'm not sure this would work. The only ways I can think of to revert solid antidermis to gaseous would probably involve killing the Kraata.

I hope you're not under the (seemingly common) misconception that Makuta can only exist in a gaseous state; see above if so. If you're bringing this up for some other reason, a Kraata converted somehow to a gaseous state should slowly dissipate, and might still be able to find some kind of container in time to prevent its death, if it's smart enough or its master commands it to. But that's irrelevant to turning it into a new Makuta.

 

From what I've seen, the Kraata emerge from the Makuta fully alive, probably borrowing from their life force. In order for the possibly-resulting Makuta to form, it would need more life energy, theoretically.

Maybe, but more likely it would need a different identity, of whatever equivalent protodermis and antidermis have of DNA, and mental learned identity, etc. (Nature and nurture.)

 

 

In light of recent discussions in another topic, one interesting line of experimentation could run like this -- isolate the way a Makuta controls his Kraata remotely, redesign just that part of the Kraata's antidermis code/design, and give it armor (easiest would be Rahkshi armor). That Kraata wouldn't be tampered with in any way but might develop its "wild side" self-preservation and newfound independance into having a distinct personality, eventually becoming a Shadow Kraata with intelligence like a Toa. Then you could make a strong case that this is a new Makuta, just in the shape of a Kraata.

 

Then, if you could next isolate the method that solid organic antidermis in Makuta eventually transformed into gaseous antidermis that still somehow retained their mental identity, memories, etc. -- if you could impart just that to this Kraata as a second step, it could probably change its shape, grow by absorption, etc. And could be much like a clone of the former master (Krika, etc.).

 

However, if you left the process there, note that the "Kraakuta" would still only have one power; whichever power the Kraata had.

 

It wouldn't have an actual shapeshifting power for example, unless it happened to be a Kraata of Shapeshifting. So then you'd need to modify its antidermis molecules yet again to add back all of the Makuta powers. This is a heckuvalotta tampering without messing up its mind; it really stretches credulity that any being in the MU or Spherus Magna other than GBs could ever do it successfully. But it's possible IMO, and if you did all that, you might have a brand new Makuta, not subtracting from the ones in the Origin Pool.

[Art Vandelay]

Where was it stated that Makuta weren't originally pure antidermis? I've never heard anything to that effect from any canon source. The only part not antidermic was the protosteel armor, and that's the same now as it's always been in terms of percentage, apparently.

Sorry, I didn't really word that correctly. What I meant to say is that Makuta were not originally gaseous, and that they were biomechanical and later evolved into their current state.

[slifer3000]

Makuta can only regenerate organics, I believe.

 

Think about it this way: A scientific equation or formula exists to create Kraata (albeit a fictional one). I am pondering the possibility of going through this equation backwards, to go from Kraata to gaseous antidermis, instead of vice versa.

[bonesiii]

Think about it this way: A scientific equation or formula exists to create Kraata (albeit a fictional one). I am pondering the possibility of going through this equation backwards, to go from Kraata to gaseous antidermis, instead of vice versa.

So are you specifically asking about reversing the process that the now-gaseous Makuta do in making solid organic antidermis? That alone? It seems to me that if that alone is all that's being considered, it would simply create antidermis as used in 2006. Should be possible, but it wouldn't make a new Makuta anymore than separating a part of a Makuta's gaseous antidermis as the Piraka did for the Zamor would make one.

[slifer3000]

Well how much gas is needed to make a Makuta? Makuta are just gas so wouldn't you have a Makuta with even the smallest amount?

[fishers64]

Well how much gas is needed to make a Makuta? Makuta are just gas so wouldn't you have a Makuta with even the smallest amount?

I would think you would need a certain amount of the stuff before concious, Makuta-like thought would be possible. Otherwise you would just end up with Rahkshi, albeit gaslike. Edited June 3, 2013 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

If there IS a minimum at all, I would guess the size of a Matoran's brain (which is presumably about the size of a human brain). The known minimum is a Turaga's mass, but as I said this does not appear to be an absolute minimum.

 

But technically my theory mentioned in one of the earliest posts would mean that it has little to nothing to do with size, technically. If you took just a Kraata's mass out, or even 10% of a Kraata's mass out of the origin pool and pulled out a Makuta's consciousness into it you would have a new Makuta. It might not be as smart as a full-sized Makuta but that would be like a human baby, which starts out with no brain at all and gradually grows in brain capacity and intelligence. So in other words, by absorbing more mass and gaining experience, a brand new ubertiny Makuta could eventually grow to become like a normal Makuta.

 

So basically I think that a Makuta with less mass in one place (at the center of mind) than a brain would be possible -- heshe would be mentally handicapped but still an individual Makuta. Above brain size, any other size would be acceptable (with the excess acting like a body). IMO.

[slifer3000]

I might use this idea for a fanfic, reviving a Makuta such as Krika

[Hexann]

How much gas do you need to make a Makuta?

You would probably need every type of Kratta there is.

[Kopaka25]

Could this mean that cloning is possible for Makuta, i.e. they take out some of their essence, isolate it and let a new Makuta develop from it?

[slifer3000]

It wouldn't be a new makuta, just a part of them. I Have an idea for a fanfic that each Makuta took a small vile of their essence and hid it somewhere in the MU, and reviving them is possible as long as these Makuta viles exist

[Kanakalackin]

How much gas do you need to make a Makuta?

0_0 Are you planning on creating over-powered beings that want nothing less than ruling the universe?

[slifer3000]

Um... no... pfft... that'd be crazy...

[Kanakalackin]

I was just joking.

[Kopekemaster]

 

I mean, taking a Kraata and reversing the process used to make it to form a Makuta.

 

I don't know about that, but I doubt you could take one Rahkshi and use it to clone the Makuta that it was from. Unless you were like a Great Being.

 

Oh boy. I need to write a story about that now.

 

But I would think probably not. At least, it seems very unlikely.

[slifer3000]

 

 

I mean, taking a Kraata and reversing the process used to make it to form a Makuta.

 

I don't know about that, but I doubt you could take one Rahkshi and use it to clone the Makuta that it was from. Unless you were like a Great Being.

 

Oh boy. I need to write a story about that now.

:[

[bonesiii]

Guys, this is getting a little chatty. I don't want to stifle discussion or anything but let's try to stay on-topic.

[slifer3000]

Like my topic about OP villains..?