Why does everyone say that Alternate Universe make BIONICLE complicate

[Boidoh]

OK, In the poll, when I mean complicated, I mean it in a negative connotation. Because obviously any new thing in BIONICLE makes a story more complex, which in itself is a synonym of complicated. So when I use complex, it is positive, complicated is negative. 

 

 

 

I was bored today. I already finished reading all the serials, and comics I could find online and was just randomly clicking around BS01. I saw the link to HS01 and said, "Hey, I wonder what's going on with HERO FACTORY." So I decided to check it out. I typed in a couple names I recalled, I never got into the series. So I typed in Furno. I said, "Eh, not as fleshed out as BIONICLE character pages, but whatever." So then I got to the bottom of the biography...

 

'Alternate Universes'

 

I'm assuming these came from the books, cause only Greg does these kind of things.

 

Anyways, my point here is, why all the hate about the AUs in BIONICLE? The most common one is that people say it makes BIONICLE confusing. I WOULD have agreed with you, if it was me before July 2014.

 

Before then I never bothered reading the serials, checking out the comics, or even read a single BIONICLE book, I never even knew they existed. I never even played MNOG then. I never even knew what it was. Then I did some simple stuff. I rewatched the movies to get back into BIONICLE. The only reason I got back into was because of those rumours. Then after that I found the comics online, then I read all the serials. All that stuff that looks complicated, is only complicated because you probably don't know where they even came from. After indulging my self with the books and stuff, I could probably fully explain the AUs and more without even pausing.

 

See, when I was looking at that HF page of Furno, the only complex part to it was the AUs. I said what the normal AU hater would say about them. Oh, this makes HF so complicated. I mean, look at the name, Reality 3232323242.5, Reality 342423432434554786.8. What were these, Greg pressing random keys? I had no idea where they come from, no idea whats their purpose, and wouldn't care if they lived or died. My point here is, it probably only looks complicated to me because I KNOW NOTHING about HF. To the HF fan, these probably expanded the universe or whatever, but to me, it just makes some unnecessary complexity, because I don't know about HF a lot, I probably watched the first couple episodes when I was 10 or 11, but other than that I have no idea what's happened and would never waste valuable time looking up, buying or reading a HF book.

 

Oh, and here is just some food for thought. In HF, according to HS01 (which should really be called HS10 because BIONICLE was released in 01' and HF in 2010...) there are 5 AUs, and in BIONICLE there are ALSO FIVE! 5, FIVE! The SAME AMOUNT.

 

Of course there are the other little pocket dimensions, like the City of Silver, or Field of Shadows and the the barely useful ones that never got a story like the dimension where Annona was banished, the one Brutaka was talking about with the light creatures, the one where the Makuta extra stuff goes, and the one where the order locked up Tuyet. And those are just the ones off the top of my head. I don't know if there are any more. And those little ones are just irrelevant, but make the story more interesting and allows for more creative fanfics.

 

;tldr;

 

1. In my OPINION, the only reason I THINK is why people call AUs complicated, is because they PROBABLY never read the serials. All AUs were featured in serials. (not counting pocket dimensions)

 

2. HF's AUs are complicated to me because I never read any of the books, nor did I care for the little details. I never even cared for the story at all.

 

3. HF has the same amount of alternate dimension as BIONICLE, 5.

 

4. HFs AU names are stupid. Let me make up one. Reality 29934378.3. or maybe Reality 23423535235789987654321.4?

 

5. AU is a shortened term for Alternate Universe, if ya didn't know...

 

 

*NOTE* This is not meant to be a hate message to ANYONE AT ALL who dislikes AUs. This is just me voicing my opinion on the matter. If you don't like them, and you read all the serials and may be a big BIONICLE fan, then OK. I respect your opinion. I by no means dislike or will dislike anyone just because they share a different opinion than mines. This is just me, sharing what I think. 

 

This note is probably unnecessary but is just a reminder to make sure no arguments break out in this topic, but none probably will.

 

Edit: I wanted to change the topic name since it was cut off. Can any mods change it to "How can AUs make BIONICLE Complicated if HF also have?" Thanks.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Boidoh

[toa kopaka4372]

 

 

it just makes some unnecessary complexity

I predict that most responses that view AUs negatively will contain this. Also, "bloated." A lot of people actually just straight up dislike the serials, and that's partially because that's where a lot of the alternate universes in the story showed up. While it's mostly true that the alt. universes weren't strictly necessary for the story, I thought they were very entertaining and sometimes thought-provoking, and were used to explore some very intriguing ideas. So yes, I do think they make the story a little more complex, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Boidoh]

I love compexity in BIONICLE, but there is a clear difference between being complex, and being complicated.

 

For example, the simple definition of 'Matoran' is complex, if I give one meaning, I would have to explain several words like Kanohi, elemental prefixes, and other stuff.

 

Complicated would be things that are just too hard to understand. I'd say how to build a car from scratch is complicated. And math... 

 

 

Erm, I'll just fetch some meanings.

 

com·plex   [adj., v. kuhm-pleks, kom-pleks; n. kom-pleks] Show IPA

adjective

1.

composed of many interconnected parts; compound; composite:a complex highway system.

 

 

com·pli·cat·ed   [kom-pli-key-tid]  Show IPA

adjective

1.

composed of elaborately interconnected parts; complex:complicated apparatus for measuring brain functions.

2.

difficult to analyze, understand, explain, etc.: a complicatedproblem.

 

 

OK. Erm... They seem to be synonyms... I prefer number 2 for complicated.

 

So for the sake of sanity in this thread.

 

Complex - Positive Connotation

Complicated - Negative Connotation 

 

 

And please, please, please don't go around picking out every time I mistakenly used the word complex in a negative fashion in my first post. I was just typing what came to me.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Boidoh

[bonesiii]

The way this poll is worded makes it seem unnecessary -- by definition, alternate dimensions necessarily do make the story complicated.

 

It sounds like what you're trying to ask is if we like them (for the complexity they bring to it), but that's not what you asked. The question as asked has only one objective answer -- yes, they do, so that's how I voted. And yes, I've read the serials.

 

 

As for whether I like them, yes and no. I enjoy greatly a story with more limitations, and yet also enjoy stories that break past limitations. It's hard to put into words in any simple way (and I don't have time right now for a giant philosophical analysis ). I tell stories about them in my fanfics, so obviously I like them when used right. But I did think some of the uses in Bionicle didn't do it right. Basically as I've said before, they sometimes seemed too "cheap" -- like the downsides of it weren't taken seriously enough. The approach I have tried in my retelling is to bring a sense of "this is a very bad door to be opening" to it, which I felt the canon needed more of. And it's also an important source of major danger in both of the other fanfic series I'm involved with (the Paracosmos being my own invention, and it's also there in the EM in a very different way).

 

And also, I see great value in a story where such "out theres" aren't even possible.

 

My longstanding interest in sci-fi and the fact that time travel has been such a major component of sci-fi stories led me to a love of temporal mechanics. But then Bionicle came into the picture with its actual rule against it, bended a few times (some of them with this very component itself, alternate dimensions with different rates of time speed), broken technically with Bitil, but by and large it tried to take that rule seriously. The one major potential breaking of the rule, the risk of the destruction of the Vahi, was treated with deadly seriousness. I loved that, and even though it meant a huge fan of temporal mechanics couldn't get that out of Bionicle, somehow that limit being taken seriously actually made it refreshing.

 

My sense of alternate dimensions is like that. Bionicle didn't treat them with anywhere near the same amount of seriousness (although part of why I liked Takanuva's journey was that it came the closest of any of them). And that made the enjoyment of them ironically go down for me. Dunno if that helps explain it but yeah.

 

It isn't just from not reading the stories using it, trust me, although I'm sure there's some people who didn't give it a chance, so for some that may actually be a factor. I dunno if what I'm saying is only my perspective -- maybe others who didn't like it (much) had completely different reasons, I dunno. So, for whatever it's worth. =)

Edited August 9, 2014 by bonesiii

[toa kopaka4372]

But I did think some of the uses in Bionicle didn't do it right. Basically as I've said before, they sometimes seemed too "cheap" -- like the downsides of it weren't taken seriously enough. The approach I have tried in my retelling is to bring a sense of "this is a very bad door to be opening" to it, which I felt the canon needed more of. And it's also an important source of major danger in both of the other fanfic series I'm involved with (the Paracosmos being my own invention, and it's also there in the EM in a very different way).

 

Hm...interesting approach there. For BIONICLE, I feel like the purpose of the AUs was to explore different "what if" scenarios and the ramifications they'd have on the world and the psyche of the characters involved more than the technical details. Viewed from that perspective they were mostly a smashing success, but from yours I could see why you could have a problem with it.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I really like the AUs. To me they open up so many great possibilities and I love all the serials featuring them, especially Dark Mirror.

[fishers64]

Yes, they make things more complicated, and yes, I read the serials. *kicks theory out the door*

 

I actually didn't like the alternate dimensions when they were first introduced that much. (What, there isn't enough action in the canon universe for you writers?). But over the year 2008 and afterward, they really grew on me. I liked the concept of alt. Teridax, and Tuyet getting cut in half by a portal (the concept of it, not the actual execution, ugh), even though I originally thought the Dark Mirror story was kinda pointless. Basically I found things to like about each of the alternate dimensions as time wore on. They were cool. 

 

IMO Dark Mirror was a horrible story, and reading that negative disaster first threatened to reflect on my perceptions of the whole concept. I'm glad it didn't.  

[Element Lord of Milk]

The only time I can remember where an AU made the story more complicated was when Tuyet came back and her being alive was explained through her hiding in an alternate universe and the Pit's Tuyet being a decoy. There was also Light Teridax, but I don't think it really made it that much more complicated. The other times Alternate universes have appeared (Only Takanuva and Vezon's adventures if I'm not mistaken) they've been pretty tangential to the main story.

 

I quite liked seeing different AUs, as it gave us an idea of what might have happened if things had gone a different way, how characters would have reacted differently, and in the case of The Kingdom, Light Teridax, and the universe Vezon briefly visited where Mata Nui completed his mission normally, even how those Universes might have been a better case scenario.

[Banana Gunz]

I don't think alternate universes complicate anything. They can sometimes make situations where characters (i.e. Good Teridax) are introduced and can have an effect on the story, which can confuse some as to their origins if they don't keep in-the-know. But for the most part, I think they can be fun and refreshing from the main story. I mean come on, Dark Mirror and the Kingdom were some of my favorite Bionicle serials just because of how different they were and how you could see characters in ways you wouldn't normally imagine them.

 

I don't think they really complicate anything in HF, in fact much less than Bionicle. In Bionicle, the alternate universes could have an effect on the story and were often explored and interacted with characters from the main world. In HF (to my knowledge) the alternate universes made up were made for one book, in which I can't remember if and main timeline heroes actually visited, and if they did, I don't think it affected the main time line at all.

 

The only thing complicated about the HF alternate universes is the names (which I agree are pretty absurd and needlessly complicated!), which could easily be substituted for simpler ones if people cared to. In fact, most of the alternate universes in Bionicle don't exactly have official names to my knowledge. People simply refer to them as they are. This would be the same case with Hero Factory if they hadn't already been given names.

 

The only times I've seen AU's get silly or "complicated" is when they're used to explain something or cause something poorly. For example, Tuyet's apparent non-death and the weird portal that opened up between Mazeka and Vultraz (which was apparently caused by Vezon but was not explained in that serial and was completely random and coincidental). It all depends on how you weave an AU dimension into a story, it can be done well or poorly like anything else.

 

Edit: It's also notable how AU's affect the story indirectly. It can sometimes give the readers a clearer image of the main time line as well. For example, we never knew what Tuyet's personality exactly was like until we got the Dark Mirror serial. Also, it shows a deeper look into the characters by showing what they are capable of being if things have gone different. This has been shown definitally with Teridax and helped us see what the Toa could be if they didn't believe in mercy and the Toa code. We got a perspective on heroes in Bionicle that they are a lot more fragile than we thought.

 

@fishers64: I honestly have to agree with you, though I wish I didn't have to. If Dark Mirror was an entire fleshed out novel, it could've been really amazing, but as it was all crunched down to a single serial, the story felt rushed and un-motivated.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Removed297]

I've read them, and I don't think they over-complicate things, but I think that the whole universe jumping trope is overused.

 

It's just a way to justify writing AU stories, since without a tie to the main universe, Greg wouldn't have any justification to write them as a LEGO employee. I think all the AU stories would make great "what if" tales, if separate from the inclusion of dimension-hopping main universe characters.

Edited August 10, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Adventurer]

Yes they make the story more complicated, but I wouldn't say TOO complicated. I think they add a lot to the mythology of the world and allows Greg to explore the characters in ways that can't be done in the main story (the what-ifs I think allow different sides of characters to be explored as well as showing the importance of certain events). That being said I don't think they're nessecary either, but on the same hand they're not harming anyone by being there either. They can quite easily be ignored if someone finds them too complicated and just wishes to follow the main story.

[LordofBionicles]

I don't thinks so because there aren't many of them, just 5 actually, compared to Marvel and DC comics who have lots of them you loose track!

[Pomegranate]

I never minded them, I always loved AUs, 'cause I'm a sci fi geek who happens to really like alternate worlds and interacting with them, but Bionicle would've been better off without them. 

Bionicle was already so enormous in scale; opening up portals to alternate worlds, and exploring them, and bring a character or two back? That's just too much, and breaks the thin walls of suspension of disbelief already crumbling as wackier and wackier things went on.

[ToaKapura1234]

Fun fact: Alternate universes were first mentioned in a 2002 comic, specifically the first page of "A Matter of Time," so there was precedence for what Greg did. And I liked the alternate universes. To answer Bones' concern I think the reason the AUs were taken more seriously in Takanuva stories was because they were serious and a big shock and a big deal for him, but for Vezon it was just the next escalation in his crazy life viewed through crazier eyes.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Toa K

[toa kopaka4372]

Fun fact: Alternate universes were first mentioned in a 2002 comic, specifically the first page of "A Matter of Time," so there was precedence for what Greg did. And I liked the alternate universes. To answer Bones' concern I think the reason the AUs were taken more seriously in Takanuva stories was because they were serious and a big shock and a big deal for him, but for Vezon it was just the next escalation in his crazy life viewed through crazier eyes.

Really? That's interesting. Which comic?

[ToaKapura1234]

 

Fun fact: Alternate universes were first mentioned in a 2002 comic, specifically the first page of "A Matter of Time," so there was precedence for what Greg did. And I liked the alternate universes. To answer Bones' concern I think the reason the AUs were taken more seriously in Takanuva stories was because they were serious and a big shock and a big deal for him, but for Vezon it was just the next escalation in his crazy life viewed through crazier eyes.

Really? That's interesting. Which comic?

 

A Matter of Time

Edited August 10, 2014 by Toa K

[Boidoh]

 

How was it mentioned.

[ToaKapura1234]

When the picture of Tahu Nuva running with the horde of Tahnok following him is shown, it says:  "This is not an alternate timeline."

[Boidoh]

A yes this: http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Tyranide/comics/mata-nui/11/01.jpg

 

Oh and, you just had your 666th post...

[Toa Smoke Monster]

1; 2. No, I never thought that the AUs made the story more complicated. 

 

3. I voted yes for this, but it really only applies to the first couple AUs that were shown in-story. 

 

I'm under the belief that it was overuse of AUs that made some people dislike them being in the Bionicle storyline, and not the concept itself. I really liked them when they were shown, like in Dark Mirror and The Kingdom. But as the serials went on, I felt that whenever one or more of our characters from the main universe ended up in an AU, it took away from showing events that were going on in the main universe. I know it could be argued that we saw things in them that we probably wouldn't have seen otherwise, like Light Teridax. But I can't help but feel they should've been scaled back a bit in favor of more story from the main one.

[Boidoh]

But I think that the only serials that had AUs besides Dark Mirror and the Kingdom were Brothers in Arms, and Reign of Shadows, where majority of Vezon's dimensional hoppings take place.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Boidoh

[ALVIS]

Now, I liked the alternate universes, at least the first few. The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were really great stories, and the Field of Shadows and the City of Silver were both very interesting locations. But once the Melding came in and screwballed Brothers In Arms, I began to get tired of them. Vezon's subsequent romp through the Great Spirit Makuta AU and the Spherus Magna AU (gosh, could there be a more boring AU than Spherus Magna?) just tired me out, and the continued existence of Alternate Teridax and the Shadow Takanuva in the main dimension, not to mention Tuyet's annoying resurrection retcon, just removed all patience I had for alternate universes.

 

When they were kept as one-off side stories, with no effect on the main plot, the AUs were really great things. They let Greg and us look at how things could have turned out differently in the plot and examine possibilities that would otherwise have been restricted by canon. But when characters from AUs cross into the core dimension and can affect the course of history, that REALLY bothers me. It disturbs the sanctity of the core dimension and keeps it from playing out its own story, and that goes against everything I hold dear.

 

An example of when AUs did not go too far is in the second installment of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series, The Great Hunt. The AUs are presented as weird locations to which the characters can travel, but since they are artificial divergences from history, they cannot actually affect the real story. And that's a good balance to strike.

[Banana Gunz]

Now, I liked the alternate universes, at least the first few. The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were really great stories, and the Field of Shadows and the City of Silver were both very interesting locations. But once the Melding came in and screwballed Brothers In Arms, I began to get tired of them. Vezon's subsequent romp through the Great Spirit Makuta AU and the Spherus Magna AU (gosh, could there be a more boring AU than Spherus Magna?) just tired me out, and the continued existence of Alternate Teridax and the Shadow Takanuva in the main dimension, not to mention Tuyet's annoying resurrection retcon, just removed all patience I had for alternate universes.

 

When they were kept as one-off side stories, with no effect on the main plot, the AUs were really great things. They let Greg and us look at how things could have turned out differently in the plot and examine possibilities that would otherwise have been restricted by canon. But when characters from AUs cross into the core dimension and can affect the course of history, that REALLY bothers me. It disturbs the sanctity of the core dimension and keeps it from playing out its own story, and that goes against everything I hold dear.

 

An example of when AUs did not go too far is in the second installment of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series, The Great Hunt. The AUs are presented as weird locations to which the characters can travel, but since they are artificial divergences from history, they cannot actually affect the real story. And that's a good balance to strike.

 

You do bring up a good point; it's kinda silly if you're pulling out solutions to problems and such out of no where. The main universe should be able to hold it's own story without interference.

 

Tuyet's revival is a good example of where this has gone wrong. Death is such an open thing in Bionicle that you can make a thousand excuses using alternate dimensions to bring a dead character back to life (in fact now with the red star's functionality revealed, we kinda do have one really stupid excuse to bring back anyone to life).

[Mailli]

They're essential to some of the plot, such as Tridax's army of Shadow-Takanuva.

This is one of the events that is typical of the Makuta's genius and cunning.

 

However, I dislike reading too much into alternate universes because I think that they fit the main story better if they are left as mysterious places, allowing fans to imagine twisted possibilities for themselves.

[NorikSigma]

They add a layer of complexity(good kind) and raise many interesting "what ifs" and ideas.

 

With the Prime Universe being so well-defined and hedged in, the AUs reallu add a little bit more depth to the story that could not be done inside the main universe.

[LimeFlavouredLibertarian24]

Is Bionicle 2015 reboot considered to be an alternate universe?

[Boidoh]

LOL, that reminds of when Patrick asked Squidward, "Is mayonnaise an instrument?"

 

Please read this in Squidward's voice.

 

"No, BIONICLE 2015 is not an alternate universe."

"Neither is BIONICLE 2016."