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Alright, so I don't know if this has been done already, and if it has, then my apologies.

 

Anyway, I'm making this topic for the discussion of Protodermis; how it was made from EP, its properties, and such. Energized Protodermis too. 

 

Alright, so first of all, how in the world can protodermis exist both as a clear, water-like liquid, and as a hot, molten metal-like liquid? 

 

I actually went on a bit of a writing spree yesterday, and came up with a theory. Mind you, this is a bit scientific, so... anyway. I think that protodermis might actually not be regular matter, but rather something that might be called "psuedo-matter", quantum machines of relatively the same size as normal atoms, but with many intricate, controllable properties.

 

So... discussion?

Edited by Toa Onaku
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how in the world can protodermis exist both as a clear, water-like liquid, and as a hot, molten metal-like liquid? 

well you see, its existence relies on the power of pure concentrated suspension of disbelief.

 

....as do most other things in Bionicle, seeing as it's about as soft of a science fiction universe as you can get.

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how in the world can protodermis exist both as a clear, water-like liquid, and as a hot, molten metal-like liquid? 

well you see, its existence relies on the power of pure concentrated suspension of disbelief.

 

....as do most other things in Bionicle, seeing as it's about as soft of a science fiction universe as you can get.

 

No duh, chief inspector. But the purpose of the question is rather to find some way for it to work.

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how in the world can protodermis exist both as a clear, water-like liquid, and as a hot, molten metal-like liquid? 

well you see, its existence relies on the power of pure concentrated suspension of disbelief.

 

....as do most other things in Bionicle, seeing as it's about as soft of a science fiction universe as you can get.

 

No duh, chief inspector. But the purpose of the question is rather to find some way for it to work.

 

well, should be easy since Greg said real world physics don't apply, right? you could just say it's a synthetic substance which the GBs created with technology far superior to what we have right now on Earth. pretty much explains it all away. if you want more details than that, i have to say you're probably overthinking it.

 

then again, i could be missing some crucial details, so feel free to disregard what i say.

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So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion. 

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So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion. 

well, according to Greg, yes. granted, that's regarded as one of his worst canon decisions ever, but it's there.

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Alright. New plan. How about still thinking of some way that protodermis COULD work in our universe?

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Simple answer: there is no way it could work.

 

Good answer: bring the great beings and make them help us. They were the ones that changed the highly dangerous energized protodermis into the material with nearly limitless properties.


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Alright. New plan. How about still thinking of some way that protodermis COULD work in our universe?

Maybe protodermis isn't a single substance, but a class of substances, like matter and dark matter in our universe. It's a unique group of elements (protosteel, liquid protodermis, crystalline protodermis, etc.) which, by some physical property unique to them, can easily be split or combined to form each other.

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Well, that's what my theory of psuedo-matter is all about. In essence, a mass of sub-atomic machines made of various building blocks within the universe.

 

Also, on the topic of energized protodermis, I think i have a reasonable theory for that, which doesn't really need the whole sub-atomic machine thing. It could basically be a mass of "grey goop", a.k.a. many, many nano-machines that have the ability to change or destroy other matter constructs.

 

 

Alright. New plan. How about still thinking of some way that protodermis COULD work in our universe?


Maybe protodermis isn't a single substance, but a class of substances, like matter and dark matter in our universe. It's a unique group of elements (protosteel, liquid protodermis, crystalline protodermis, etc.) which, by some physical property unique to them, can easily be split or combined to form each other.

 

That makes sense. Like I said, "psuedo-matter".

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Also, on the topic of energized protodermis, I think i have a reasonable theory for that, which doesn't really need the whole sub-atomic machine thing. It could basically be a mass of "grey goop", a.k.a. many, many nano-machines that have the ability to change or destroy other matter constructs.

Maybe energized protodermis is some kind of Boltzmann brain, formed far earlier than we thought possible due to the unique properties of ordinary protodermis.

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Yeah, that's one option. Another is my old cyberclay theory, that it's like nanites that project programmable forcefields to mimic effects (similar to yours but all made of normal matter), and my upcoming one I keep teasing ('cuz I have to rewrite parts of it now and haven't had time :P) explains it all as a molecule (Greg had once confirmed it's a molecule, though it seems it was in a post on the old forums, not a PM, and the quote has been lost; he recently forgetconned it in the LMB with an "I don't know" answer).

 

Regardless of how it does it, the basic answer is pretty simple.

 

Since the same basic stuff in real life (energy in the form of matter in certain arrangements) produces the physics behavior of water or lava or metal or whatever, other methods that get to the same results (energy fields in certain arrangments) can obviously produce the same effects.

 

Modern videogames are already getting very close in many ways to this with virtual "materials" that are programmed to imitate the behavior of real matter (or fictional matter in many cases). And biology can imitate much of it in ways similar to my molecule theory. I see it as boiling down to two basic options -- 1) something weird makes energy fields that imitate the energy fields of matter (which are what determine physics behavior including water/lava/metal), or 2) something holds rearrangeable bits and pieces of normal matter into the right placements to get those physics the old-fashioned way. Either way works because real world matter can do those things, and personally I think Greg may be better off deciding never to pick one in this case, or never revealing it anyways.

 

The real question is what runs the protodermic (and energy-based for that matter) "powers" and other things, and there we get beyond easily understandable physics. My ancient "Wacky Physics" topic did explain most of it though, and so far I haven't seen anything to contradict it (though it wasn't meant as a theory so much as "for fun" to see how it could work in real life); pinpoint electromagnetic fields or related sub-energies (in the case of gravitons, matter/energy conversion,etc.) with opposite charges aligned with atoms/etc. being generated inside matter to move it "telekinetically", like how a magnet can move a piece of metal. Just about all powers could use some variant on that. But what would generate these fields so far seems to require the "somehow step" of fiction as far as I know (hence why we aren't making them now :P), beyond really bulky and complicated electromagnet generators for some matter.

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well, the short answer is "a load of artakha bull" because it seems like whenever Mr. Greg described or explained porotodermis, he made it up as he went along.

 

with that in mind, my only adivce is to take the states of proto, and how they actually relate to each other, with a grain or two of proto-salt. :t


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So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion.

well, according to Greg, yes. granted, that's regarded as one of his worst canon decisions ever, but it's there.

 

Screenshot2014-10-19at65747PM_zps46c01dc

 

Anyway, I always assumed that Protodermis has many, many, many sub-categories that are more specific than just 'solid', or 'liquid'. That variation enables some explanations some events when Bionicle's laws of physics contradict themselves. I guess it COULD work like that in our universe, but maybe not at the same time.

Edited by The Irrational Rock
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Honestly I'm okay with protodermis as the physical incarnation of magic. Everyone complains about Bionicle losing its mysticism, but the more we learned about protodermis, the less sense it made, not more. In my opinion that should be interpreted as a trait of a fantastical substance, rather than a purely physical one.


( The bunny slippers hiss and slither into the shadows. ) -Takuaka: Toa of Time

What if the Toa you know best were not destined to be? Interchange: The epic begins

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I always assumed that Protodermis was the basic matter of the Bionicle universe. The building blocks of the physical universe. Energized protodermis was basically matter, at such a primal level that acted differently from matter based on regular protodermis.

 

Since Energized Protodermis was rare and no other matter was based on it, it doesn't appear to follow the same laws that most matter follows, because really those laws only work for regular protodermis based matter, but matorans assumed that those laws applied to all matter.

 

 

That or energized protodermis is somehow the medium by which higher powers ineract with the matoran universe.


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well, the short answer is "a load of artakha bull" because it seems like whenever Mr. Greg described or explained porotodermis, he made it up as he went along.

 

Given how much trouble we had/have understanding our universe, it's kind of understandable Greg didn't/doesn't have a complete theory of how the physics of Bionicle work. :P

 

 

So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion. 

well, according to Greg, yes. granted, that's regarded as one of his worst canon decisions ever, but it's there.

 

 

On this point, the physics -has- to be different, there'd be far too many things happening in the Bionicle universe that aren't possible with out physics. As far as I'm aware he tended to take the fairly reasonable stance of "the physics is the same except where it can't be". That is it's only different where it needs to be to allow him to do what he needs to in the story.

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well, the short answer is "a load of artakha bull" because it seems like whenever Mr. Greg described or explained porotodermis, he made it up as he went along.

 

Given how much trouble we had/have understanding our universe, it's kind of understandable Greg didn't/doesn't have a complete theory of how the physics of Bionicle work. :P

 

 

So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion. 

well, according to Greg, yes. granted, that's regarded as one of his worst canon decisions ever, but it's there.

 

 

On this point, the physics -has- to be different, there'd be far too many things happening in the Bionicle universe that aren't possible with out physics. As far as I'm aware he tended to take the fairly reasonable stance of "the physics is the same except where it can't be". That is it's only different where it needs to be to allow him to do what he needs to in the story.

 

 

um. what, may i ask, required the physics of the world to be notably different from our own?

 

(outside the proto-matter-garble, that is. though i don't think that really counts as a physics based problem? :0)


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So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion.

well, according to Greg, yes. granted, that's regarded as one of his worst canon decisions ever, but it's there.

 

Screenshot2014-10-19at65747PM_zps46c01dc

 

Anyway, I always assumed that Protodermis has many, many, many sub-categories that are more specific than just 'solid', or 'liquid'. That variation enables some explanations some events when Bionicle's laws of physics contradict themselves. I guess it COULD work like that in our universe, but maybe not at the same time.

 

Mata Nui! That is the best advice animal I have ever seen! You are a genius!


I HATE SCORPIOS


 


~Pohatu Master of Stone, 2015

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well, the short answer is "a load of artakha bull" because it seems like whenever Mr. Greg described or explained porotodermis, he made it up as he went along.

 

Given how much trouble we had/have understanding our universe, it's kind of understandable Greg didn't/doesn't have a complete theory of how the physics of Bionicle work. :P

 

 

So basically, Bionicle exists in a universe with different physical properties than our own? That kind of throws everything off, in my opinion. 

well, according to Greg, yes. granted, that's regarded as one of his worst canon decisions ever, but it's there.

 

 

On this point, the physics -has- to be different, there'd be far too many things happening in the Bionicle universe that aren't possible with out physics. As far as I'm aware he tended to take the fairly reasonable stance of "the physics is the same except where it can't be". That is it's only different where it needs to be to allow him to do what he needs to in the story.

 

 

um. what, may i ask, required the physics of the world to be notably different from our own?

 

(outside the proto-matter-garble, that is. though i don't think that really counts as a physics based problem? :0)

 

Pretty sure you'd run into conservation of energy and action problems if you took our current approach. Like there are work around, but I suspect any work around you had would just lead to another violation later on. I could go through a specific example at some point, but I'm fairly confident the ability to generate elements etc... and the transformations of elemental energies into actual effects wouldn't fit any current model we have. :P

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Rahkshi Lalonde, don't forget what we went over in the previous topic about "need." It wasn't really about "need" but "want" (though Adventurer is right in a sense that to please those that want something like that, you need to do it :P) -- and if you personally have a different taste to not want it, it won't feel the same to you. That's really all you need to know to understand why LEGO wanted to do it and yet you didn't want them to do it -- you happen to have a different personal taste, which is normal and healthy. You just need to accept it. :)

 

 

IMO it wasn't so much about explaining things as taking opportunities to build on something cool and make it cooler (for those with the tastes to like it). Protodermis was probably originally just meant to be the cliche "magic rare stuff you mine", but when they needed a transformation in 2002 to Toa Nuva, they decided to use the same stuff rather than invent some OTHER magic rare stuff. Then for 2004 somebody came up with the idea of having many different types of it, enough to build a whole world out of. They probably instantly recognized that this would "rescue" it from being just a cliche and went for it on those grounds.

 

At the same time it did help explain away most of the comic-book physics and I'm sure that was another reason they went for it, but I doubt it was the main motivation. Probably the main reason was that it was a cool idea and fun to think about (if you like this kind of thing :)).

 

As for it "making less sense the more we learned", that depends on how you decide "what makes sense." It was defined as a fictional substance that can imitate basically anything and do basically anything, as long as a specific type has been "mixed" right to have the right "instructions" (for powers, when pure), or has the right "impurities" for matter imitation. I don't see what we learned that makes that not make sense?

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Pretty sure you'd run into conservation of energy and action problems if you took our current approach. Like there are work around, but I suspect any work around you had would just lead to another violation later on. I could go through a specific example at some point, but I'm fairly confident the ability to generate elements etc... and the transformations of elemental energies into actual effects wouldn't fit any current model we have. :P

 

well, i think the main thing shouldn't be to invent new physics, but rather to, i dunno. stop breaking the law of conservation of matter? just a suggestion. (elemental powers are something non-bionicle things have used without claiming their physics were "different", so that doesn't really stand as an excuse for this kinda stuff. :0)

 

 

Rahkshi Lalonde, don't forget what we went over in the previous topic about "need." It wasn't really about "need" but "want" (though Adventurer is right in a sense that to please those that want something like that, you need to do it :P) -- and if you personally have a different taste to not want it, it won't feel the same to you. That's really all you need to know to understand why LEGO wanted to do it and yet you didn't want them to do it -- you happen to have a different personal taste, which is normal and healthy. You just need to accept it. :)

 

Hmm, is that a slight hint of passive agression i taste? i thought that wasn't in season this time of year.

 

 

As for it "making less sense the more we learned", that depends on how you decide "what makes sense." It was defined as a fictional substance that can imitate basically anything and do basically anything, as long as a specific type has been "mixed" right to have the right "instructions" (for powers, when pure), or has the right "impurities" for matter imitation. I don't see what we learned that makes that not make sense?

 

No, no that does not make sense, what that makes is Deus-Ex-Machina, and a plot device. :t


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Well, obviously it's a plot device. What solid protodermis rock were you hiding under? The thing abput protodermis is that it's the good kind of plot device. Look how it's still being debated now, ten years after the fact. That, my friends, BZ-Koronans, and Takanuva, is what writers love to see.


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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Well, obviously it's a plot device. What solid protodermis rock were you hiding under? The thing abput protodermis is that it's the good kind of plot device. Look how it's still being debated now, ten years after the fact. That, my friends, BZ-Koronans, and Takanuva, is what writers love to see.

 

the good kind as in... the kind that fills every single plot role you could ever want it to?

 

that's kinda the opposite of a well-written plot device, which usually serves its role before crawling back into the flaming abyss it was conjured from until a new chosen one can wrench it from a rock or something.

 

it'd be like if mithril wasn't just mined by dwarves, or crafted by dwarves. but was their food, drink, sky, plants, and heck. even the dwarves themselves were 50% mithril!

 

, but it's okay because it's a fantasy element, and is compelling in it's enigmatic ways!

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well, i think the main thing shouldn't be to invent new physics, but rather to, i dunno. stop breaking the law of conservation of matter?

First, the law of physics is conservation of energy, not conservation of matter; matter is under the category of energy, and (as nukes prove) matter can be converted to energy and vice versa. We don't know that Bionicle does break conservation of energy; if it does, that's okay as it's a fictional universe. It's a well-known principle in physics that alternate universes may have alternate physics. But just about everything that some assume is meant as that can also be easily interpreted as conversion of one type of energy to another. When Toa Energy multiplies by six, for example, that might be new energy coming into being, or it might simply be some unknown energy (maybe just heat from the environment or something like that) being converted to add on.

 

The only reason we don't state absolutely that it doesn't break that, as far as I recall, is that Greg has so far declined to definitely rule it out.

 

(elemental powers are something non-bionicle things have used without claiming their physics were "different", so that doesn't really stand as an excuse for this kinda stuff. :0)

Actually yes, by definition any fictional world with elemental powers is claiming something is different. Most fiction creators simply don't comment on the issue. Greg commenting on it is a sign of his unusually high interaction with fans, not so much an inherent design difference between Bionicle and other fictions. In the real world, you can't just aim a sword at something and have energy fly out that turns into ice. We can imagine some ways that parts of it might be done with real-world physics, but since we can't yet do it ourselves, we can't be sure it doesn't take something beyond what our world allows. Even if it can be done, Bionicle isn't necessarily saying the physics ARE different, but that you can't assume they're the same, since it's a totally different universe. :)

 

And if they ARE different, so what? Why would that be bad?

 

In other words, that answer was directed at people who were saying "you can't have elemental powers -- that violates physics." I personally tend to try to explain briefly to them why that's a bad assumption, but Greg goes a simpler route and says "Even if that's so, Bionicle doesn't have to use real physics --- so we can still have elemental powers." (And other stuff.)

 

So, if somebody goes to any other fiction with those kinds of things and says they can't do them "because physics", they should get the same answer really -- it's fiction, it's not supposed to be real!

 

 

bonesiii, on 20 Oct 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:snapback.png

As for it "making less sense the more we learned", that depends on how you decide "what makes sense." It was defined as a fictional substance that can imitate basically anything and do basically anything, as long as a specific type has been "mixed" right to have the right "instructions" (for powers, when pure), or has the right "impurities" for matter imitation. I don't see what we learned that makes that not make sense?

 

No, no that does not make sense, what that makes is Deus-Ex-Machina, and a plot device. :t

This wasn't directed at you, sorry if that wasn't clear -- but I was asking a question. If to you it doesn't make sense... why? I want to understand where this is coming from. :)

 

If it's coming from a misunderstanding of what Bionicle is going for here, maybe we can help clear it up so you'll (or others will) enjoy it more. =)

 

As for DEM, I'm not sure why you bring it up. That refers to a powerful being coming in to save your protagonists from certain doom, versus the protagonists solving their own problems. It has nothing to do with what fictional substances/powers/abilities are allowed in fiction. You might be trying to say "overpowered", but that's where its limitations that it needs to have the right instructions come in. Fiction is allowed to have things that are very powerful, but, as is often said on Once Upon A Time, there is always a price. The Vahi, for example, can bend time itself, but there's a terrible cost; if you lose control, or if it's smashed, time itself can unravel. More power generally means more risk.

 

And re: plot device, yes it is, but why do you see that as bad? So are elemental powers, masks, robots on island, giant robot, mystical legends, riddles, etc.

 

the good kind as in... the kind that fills every single plot role you could ever want it to?

Like we went over in the previous topic, matter can play any role that matter allows, so does that mean we can't have matter? If we all DO want protodermis to fill all the roles it fills, and not the roles we wouldn't want it to fill, then isn't it by definition a good plot device? Doesn't mean there might not be a better one, but the alternatives so far suggested don't seem to do it as well. Even if they did, it's okay for there to be variety in fiction, and protodermis can exist. :)

 

What you're really probably trying to say is that protodermis could ALSO fill roles we DON'T want it to fill. But that would depend on what you want, and most of the roles it fills are typical to fantasy/elements/powers fiction. In fact, most such fiction (especially superhero stories) have far less plausible "explanations" and even try to take place in the same universe as us with physics that should forbid the things they do. Protodermis isn't doing things that this genre of fiction doesn't allow, it's just making much more sense as it does it. :)

 

it'd be like if mithril wasn't just mined by dwarves

Ah, but see, there's the rub -- the mithril "rare magic material that is mined" trope was not so cliche in Tolkien's day, so it wasn't that bad that he did it. But since then, story after story has copied it endlessly, to the point that if you use it, and that's all there is to it (as MNOG portrayed protodermis), it will be a bad thing to most modern fiction fans. You need something different if you want to have a "magicstuff", and protodermis finally rose to the occasion in 2004 as the infinitely flexible substance with strict rules and major downsides.

 

The only viable alternatives I'm aware of are "don't explain it", which is... okaaaayyy... but boring... or "lots of different explanations"... which is okay too if that's your cup of tea. :P But it has its downsides too like being more all over the place and probably not being a good match for young chilluns.

Edited by bonesiii
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i'm uh, noticing a trend in your responses.

 

i have to ask, why do you talk like protodermis is nanomachines? (on that topic, i don't recall anyone on the story team ever saying the toa's elemental powers came from their protodermic components? what?)


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i have to ask, why do you talk like protodermis is nanomachines?

Well, I wouldn't use that term exactly; the short name for that is nanites, and I believe Greg at one point denied that it was nanites (or words to that effect). :) As I mentioned, he once called it a molecule, though he has since forgetconned it and the quote was lost, unfortunately (unless somebody out there has it? :P). If it's a molecule, parts of it could work similar to nanomachines -- that's the direction my upcoming theory tries to take. But we don't know that; it might be something more like the topic starter's theory here (quantamachines? :lol:) or even something nobody has yet imagined. It really doesn't matter; we don't need to know what it is. It's enough that we know it's a fictional substance in a fictional universe. :)

 

i don't recall anyone on the story team ever saying the toa's elemental powers came from their protodermic components? what?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Toa are entirely made of protodermis.

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i don't recall anyone on the story team ever saying the toa's elemental powers came from their protodermic components? what?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Toa are entirely made of protodermis.

 

yeah, don't remind me. *i roll my eyes here*

 

but anyway, what i meant is, somewhere, in one of these protodermis-related topics, or a different topic, can't recall. either you or another mentioned protodermis being the source of the elemental energies toa can fire and utilize.

 

but i'm fairly sure that was never backed up by the Bionicle story team, and isn't a credible statement. :0


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Actually I was the one who pointed out that the Element Lords evidently got elemental powers before the Great Beings (who gave those powers) ever discovered protodermis, so it actually isn't quite as simple as protodermis explaining everything. (Although it's also possible that something else enabled that, that has its roots in the energized protodermis in the planet core, but we don't canonically know that.)

 

Anywho, I don't recall stating that Toa elemental powers definitely come from protodermis. But we know that powers, including elemental powers, can come from it, so it certainly seems most likely that it does. (And if not, it's basically irrelevant as we were talking about why it's okay for protodermis to be able to do so many things.)

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Pretty sure you'd run into conservation of energy and action problems if you took our current approach. Like there are work around, but I suspect any work around you had would just lead to another violation later on. I could go through a specific example at some point, but I'm fairly confident the ability to generate elements etc... and the transformations of elemental energies into actual effects wouldn't fit any current model we have. :P

 

well, i think the main thing shouldn't be to invent new physics, but rather to, i dunno. stop breaking the law of conservation of matter? just a suggestion. (elemental powers are something non-bionicle things have used without claiming their physics were "different", so that doesn't really stand as an excuse for this kinda stuff. :0)

 

A way I like to think of it is if it were possible with the physics of our world, why can't we do it? :P


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Pretty sure you'd run into conservation of energy and action problems if you took our current approach. Like there are work around, but I suspect any work around you had would just lead to another violation later on. I could go through a specific example at some point, but I'm fairly confident the ability to generate elements etc... and the transformations of elemental energies into actual effects wouldn't fit any current model we have. :P

 

well, i think the main thing shouldn't be to invent new physics, but rather to, i dunno. stop breaking the law of conservation of matter? just a suggestion. (elemental powers are something non-bionicle things have used without claiming their physics were "different", so that doesn't really stand as an excuse for this kinda stuff. :0)

 

A way I like to think of it is if it were possible with the physics of our world, why can't we do it? :P

 

 

see, that's where the "it's fiction" comes in, before you even say the word "physics".

 

Bionicle is fiction, it doesn't need to explain its stuff, but it felt the need to anyway, for some odd reason. :0


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Pretty sure you'd run into conservation of energy and action problems if you took our current approach. Like there are work around, but I suspect any work around you had would just lead to another violation later on. I could go through a specific example at some point, but I'm fairly confident the ability to generate elements etc... and the transformations of elemental energies into actual effects wouldn't fit any current model we have. :P

 

well, i think the main thing shouldn't be to invent new physics, but rather to, i dunno. stop breaking the law of conservation of matter? just a suggestion. (elemental powers are something non-bionicle things have used without claiming their physics were "different", so that doesn't really stand as an excuse for this kinda stuff. :0)

 

A way I like to think of it is if it were possible with the physics of our world, why can't we do it? :P

 

 

see, that's where the "it's fiction" comes in, before you even say the word "physics".

 

Bionicle is fiction, it doesn't need to explain its stuff, but it felt the need to anyway, for some odd reason. :0

 

 

I agree fictional world with fictional physics. I don't ever remember in the primary story or medium when it was explained? Most of the "theory" we have behind how things work has come from online and not really had a large part in the story?


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It isn't explained. I don't get why people keep saying that. (And it doesn't need to be.) That's a big part of the whole point of saying that its physics can be different; you don't need to understand how it could be plausible in our world to accept it without explanation; it's a fictional world, so whatever the explanation would be if it was real, it's possible for it to exist in some other universe. :)

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Robots on tropical island. Robots are made of mythical material. Where'd the robots come from? An underground city made of mythical material. That's perfectly logical.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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okie dokie, got my head all cleared up and i guess i'm ready to converse like the human adult of indeterminate gender i am!

 

first off, i've seen several points in this topic refer to protodermis as "having instructions" or otherwise being programmable, and i'm seeing it being taken as fact, so i figured it'd be best to just do a once-over of all the facts of protodermis that can be said with certainty:

 

Energized Protodermis: in the beginning of bionicle's in-story timeline, this substance was locked away in the core of the planet, which gives us Protodermis' true origin. a mistical silvery magma from the core.

 

Energized proto has a few defining features, it's silver as usual, but it also contains raw energy, and has the power to fry or metamorphasise beings that enter it. (later retconned into being an actual sentience, but for the sake of proto as matter being the discussion, that point is moot.)

 

through means unknown, EP can condense down into three stable forms, Solid Proto (a stone) Liquid Proto (a water) and the enigmatic Organic Proto (a thing) I'm only going to talk about the first two, since the last is a pretty broad catagory. :0

 

Solid Protodermis: The "Earth" and "Stone" of the MU, and not actually Protodermis in its base form, but the form most commonly seen. SP seems to be no different from normal rock, it behaves like it and is treated like it on all occasions. is slightly silvery still. also known as "Raw Protodermis"

 

Liquid Protodermis: The only major difference from the "water" it immitates is the silvery color, hence the sea of Protodermis is called the "silver sea", despite the name, this is only one of three stages of Proto to be liquid, albiet the only one that is liquid at room temperature,, and the only one that doesn't fry you on contact.

 

Liquid proto can be purified further, and, according to BS01, is the one you melt down into Molten Proto.

 

Molten Protodermis: Functions like Molten Metal, solidifies into Pure Solid Protodermis (aka: Metallic Protodermis)

 

Metallic Protodermis: A metal analogue, functions like you'd expect, used to make armour, tools, and kanoka disks on metru nui. (if i recall, an advanced version is Protosteel)

 

(then there's a few crystalline proto variants, easily compared to how carbon makes coal, graphite, and Diamond without any other substance interfering.)

 

so, basically, aside from a few small issues (Energized to non-energized conversion never described, Liquid proto oddly being the one that is melted down?) I don't see any flaws with the protodermis setup, and heck, i can let those things pass because it's kinda neat the way liquid proto works, even if it's a bit odd.

 

the point i've been trying to make here all along isn't that proto is inherantly wrong or off. but more of that Organic proto is off compared to its other forms, by being a broader catagory, imitating a form detached from all its other forms with no reason to do so. (complex cellular life, rather than basic atomic or molecular compound.) and also alienating all earth-like organic materials, like trees or meat.

 

Protodermis isn't analogous with all of matter, because on spherus magna, it existed alongside well-known matter, like ice, iron, water, fire, etc. which makes it more like a catagory of matter, one which, until Organic Protodermis, clearly defines itself as more metal-like than anything else, and with a silvery base color. i'm pretty sure it was always supposed to be metal-analogous before anything else.

 

sorry, sorry. this is becoming a rambling, blah. I'm not very good at composing long points like this, but if you wanted me to state, clear and forward, what i think of Protodermis and where my problems lie, there it is. :t

 

 

tldr; I have no qualms with proto being more than "special stuff that is mined" it's more a qualm with the misconception its a broader catagory than it set itself up to be. :0


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Are you sure it's Liquid -> Molten? I thought you melted Solid to get Molten. And you left out Refined Protodermis, which is what masks and Kanoka were cast from.


:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Are you sure it's Liquid -> Molten? I thought you melted Solid to get Molten. And you left out Refined Protodermis, which is what masks and Kanoka were cast from.

 

i always thought solid too, but that's what the BS01 said, and i can't find any better resource for proto-smelting. :0 (refined how? as in refined liquid, or the refined metallic?)


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Corpus Rahkshi characters: Snap, Teeth ,Rose,Kaita

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