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Makuta_of_Oz

Names and possible contradiction regarding Toa Mangai

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I have two questions re. the Toa Mangai.

 

The first is more a story idea because I'm a control freak and want a say in the canon I could see the naming of Naho Bay after one of the team's Toa of Water being a pattern. I think more locations on Mata Nui could also be named after other Toa Mangai in their honour. My ideas are below:

  • Hura-Mafa River, which flowed from Mount Ihu to Naho Bay, could be named after 2 of the 4 Toa Mangai of Ice, Hura and Mafa (not sure which, nor can I figure out the names of the others)
  • Lake Kanae, a lake located in the jungles of Le-Wahi and Kanae Bay where Lewa washed ashore, could both be named after the Toa Mangai of the Green, Kanae
  • The Motara Desert, in Po-Wahi, could be named after the Toa Mangai of Stone, Motara
  • Papa Nihu Reef, off the coast of Onu-Wahi, could be named after the Toa Mangai of Earth, Nihu

I could also see a few landmarks named after significant Matoran who didn't make it to Mata Nui, just like how Mount Ihu was named after Ihu the Ko-Matoran seer. For example:

  • Leva Bay being named after a Po-Matoran called Leva
  • Tiro Canyon being named after a Po-Matoran called Tiro
  • The Kumu Islets being named after a Ga-Matoran called Kumu

Is it still possible to submit stuff like this? At the very least I think it'll be good for discussion.

 

 

My second question involves a contradiction I found on BS01. According to the Bionicle Encyclopediae, after the Toa/Dark Hunter War, "Several of the Toa Mangai left the city for other islands, in order to have new adventures of their own." The remaining Toa Mangai except Lhikan were then killed by Eliminator. But according to BS01's table detailing each Toa Mangai, ALL of the Toa we don't know, plus Naho, are deceased and couldn't be revived in the Red Star, implying they all remained on Metru Nui and were killed by Eliminator. If some left the island before that culling, how did they die in such a similar manner? How do we know they're not still out there?


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Re. the first idea: Ages ago, I approached Mr. Farshtey with that same thought... I will admit, more because my teenage self wanted to have a place in Bionicle history than any other reason, and I certainly hadn't thought on it in as much detail as you have. He pretty effectively shot me down with (and I'm paraphrasing because I no longer have the message) something along the lines of "are all the places where you live named after famous people? Probably not. So why would you expect that to be the case on Mata Nui?"

 

...which is low-key ironic, because around here, a ton of the streets ARE named after former mayors of the city. But as he had clearly seen right through me, and rightfully so, I didn't want to press the issue.

 

 

Even far removed from my regrettable motivation of the time, however, I can still see the potential in the idea - particularly with the level of thought you've put into it here. It does, after all, seem odd that the Turaga would single out only one member of the team to honour in such a way. This long after the original run's end, I don't see any reason why Greg wouldn't approve some of this to canon; but I've also no idea if it's possible to contact him any more or not.

Edited by Darth Jaller

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"New legends awake, but old lessons must be remembered.
For that is the way
of the BIONICLE."

---

Skyrise bios: Tarutu, Kastir, Littiuu, Alarei / Six Kingdoms bios: Varxii, Zecrillia, Jabali

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Addressing your second question: If memory serves, the Toa Mangai were each sent out on missions that were actually traps where they were killed by Eliminator.

Then why does it say on BS01 that some left the island to go on their own adventures? The reinforcement Toa from the Toa/Dark Hunter War I understand, but the article specified the Toa Mangai, which I assume meant the ones who fought the Kanohi Dragon.


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Addressing your second question: If memory serves, the Toa Mangai were each sent out on missions that were actually traps where they were killed by Eliminator.

Then why does it say on BS01 that some left the island to go on their own adventures? The reinforcement Toa from the Toa/Dark Hunter War I understand, but the article specified the Toa Mangai, which I assume meant the ones who fought the Kanohi Dragon.

 

 

I think it's all self-consistent, although BS01's Toa Mangai article could afford a rewrite. As I understand it, the adventures that BS01 alludes to are different from the missions that Makuta sent the Toa Mangai on. If that's true, then the timeline goes like this:

 

The 11 Toa Mangai showed up to defeat the Kanohi Dragon ~3,500 years ago. Then 8 of the Toa Mangai left to go on their own adventures, which is why Tuyet, Nidhiki, and Lhikan were the only Toa around Metru Nui ~2,500 years ago during "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet." Tuyet was sent to the Pit then, leaving 10 total Toa Mangai and 2 on Metru Nui. Over the next 500 years, the 8 Toa Mangai who left came back. (We know that because all the Toa Mangai were on Metru Nui during the Toa-Dark Hunter War.) Nidhiki defected during the war, leaving 9 Toa Mangai, who were all on Metru Nui. By the time of the 2004 story, Eliminator had killed 8 of them, leaving just Lhikan.

 

There's a relevant discussion on BS01 here.

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I think the issue is that the Turaga would probably name landmarks after things that they cared about. That doesn't mean that every single Toa Mangai needs to be represented.

 

Maybe Nokama once met Naho. Maybe Nokama read up a lot on Naho and looked up to her. That might be why Naho Bay was named after her, just like how Ihu was a close friend of Nuju's.

 

But even though Vakama looked up to Lhikan, even though the entire team had some interaction with Lhikan and Lhikan was no doubt the most influential Toa on the Toa Metru, there's no landmark named in his honor (although he did get a legend about him).

 

I don't doubt that the Turaga would have tried to keep different parts of their history alive in the naming of various landmarks, but each Turaga likely named the landmarks in their own Wahi differently, based on their own personal values. If they have dead or lost Matoran friends that they care about, I would expect that they might name landmarks after them. It's also entirely possible that the names come from legends told in Metru Nui, from sections of the archives or long-lost beasts or the names of streets or knowledge towers that the Turaga once visited or lived on or spent time in. 

 

This is just my personal opinion, mind you, but I don't think we need such alterations to the lore to be officially endorsed if they never impacted on the story itself. These are fun things to consider but I do find myself a bit frustrated at the alterations to canon that didn't get mentioned otherwise in the story. Making up lore is a lot of fun, and it's enjoyable if you can squeeze that into a story or make a MOC or something, but I think a part of the value of Bionicle is the space it offers for creativity. To my mind, if every landmark had a Greg approved canonical history that the name came from, that means there's less room for fanart to make it's own interpretations.

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Part 1: Fight for Freedom                        Wisps of Memory

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:kaukau: I agree with the final statement of TheArchAngelleofJustice.  That is, certain things about the island of Mata Nui need to be kept mysterious and open to interpretation.  One of the things that made Bionicle Bionicle was that it knew how to constantly entertain the imaginations of fan fiction writers.  If you explain too many things that don't need explaining, it takes away from that.

In a different scenario, I can see myself having another opinion.  If Greg had been the type of worldbuilder who, like Tolkein, thoroughly developed multiple volumes of history, all for the sake of inventing fictional languages, and that had been a staple feature of Bionicle, that would have been great.  However, while it had its own alphabet, Bionicle quite famously did not invent its own language.  Conlanging wasn't at its core, so it isn't critically important that we know the origin of absolutely every word in the Matoran culture.

 

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I think Greg once said there was nothing named after Lhikan on Mata Nui because it would have been too painful for Vakama, so he got the legend of Lhii instead. That was back when I wanted to call the beach at the begin and end of MNOG "Lhikan Beach."

A lot of fans (including me) have latched onto this idea. Example: https://biosector01.com/wiki/Energy_Siphon_Blade This thing's original name was the Nihu-Motara Energy Siphon Blade, and involved a Toa Mangai of Water and a Toa Mangai of Stone. Since the contest only canonized the weapon's functionality, not its history, this isn't canon, but it's still an interesting thought. This is where the BIONICLE fandom can be a little pedantic. I personally think canonizing the general principle of Mata Nui locations being named after Metru Nui heroes is interesting, but meticulously assigning each Toa a location, based on nothing more than it being in their same elemental region, adds to little to be worth doing. For me, the possibility that there might have been a Toa Leva is more interesting than a hard yes or hard no that that the lake and bay were named after a Toa Mangai.


"You are an absolute in these uncertain times. Your past is forgotten, and your
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"
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