The Elder Scrolls

[Havelock Vetinari]

Restarting Helgen four different times until you get everything about your characters appearance just right.I think I might have mild OCD.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Restarting Helgen four different times until you get everything about your characters appearance just right.I think I might have mild OCD.

showracemenuAnother nifty feature of the PC.

You think beast mode sucks Lev? Just wait until you get dawnguard. The werewolf perk tree makes werewolves so much more viable. I fought the last boss of the main dawnguard story and it was fun. My sprinting power attack can kill almost anyone in 1 hit. It's great. Plus, having 2 other werewolves join you that can also knock enemies to the ground is very helpful in not only a distraction, but doing damage as well.~U_K~

Do they at least give the werewolves and armor rating with Dawnguard? Sure, the powerful attacks and stuff are nice, as is the speed, and all of the boosts from Dawngaurd look good. Only there's almost no defenses given against enemy attacks.Sabre Cat from nowhere? Bam, there goes a fifth of your health. And you can't heal yourself unless there are NPCs in the area. Really, it's only practical using werewolf form in bandit lairs and the like. Out in the wilderness, you're dead meat. And I dread seeing how a Werewolf handles against a frost breathing Dragon that can sap away their stamina and can't be tossed back.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

In other news, my one-man genocidal crusade against the Thalmor continues. I plan to make myself a wall out of their bodies....A wall made out of the bodies of thousands of Thalmor surrounding Skyrim! With my reanimated servants manning it! Yes...an elf wall guarded by elf zombies....

[Wotz]

Do they at least give the werewolves and armor rating with Dawnguard? Sure, the powerful attacks and stuff are nice, as is the speed, and all of the boosts from Dawngaurd look good. Only there's almost no defenses given against enemy attacks.Sabre Cat from nowhere? Bam, there goes a fifth of your health. And you can't heal yourself unless there are NPCs in the area. Really, it's only practical using werewolf form in bandit lairs and the like. Out in the wilderness, you're dead meat. And I dread seeing how a Werewolf handles against a frost breathing Dragon that can sap away their stamina and can't be tossed back.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Some of the perks include giving a 100 point boost to health and stamina, consuming most creatures (so killing the Sabre Cat and eating it is no problem), increase in damage etc. I've never encountered a Dragon while in beast form but after wiping out the population of several villages I doubt it would be as hard as you think.

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

In my Skyrim experience I've mutated into a werewolf just twice. Once, when you recieve this power during the Companions questlinbe. I get to the passage, go to Skyrim and, just out of the Whiterun gates, a frost dragon attacks me.The second time, trying to acquire the Master Criminal achievement ( which I later found to be un-unlockable ). Riften guards needed just few arrows to kill me.I don't think I'll ever transform into beast form again. Too low health. I prefer my Daedric Armor.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Emile A239

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

In my Skyrim experience I've mutated into a werewolf just twice. Once, when you recieve this power during the Companions questlinbe. I get to the passage, go to Skyrim and, just out of the Whiterun gates, a frost dragon attacks me.The second time, trying to acquire the Master Criminal achievement ( which I later found to be unlockable ). Riften guards needed just few arrows to kill me.I don't think I'll ever transform into beast form again. Too low health. I prefer my Daedric Armor.

This man speaks the truth. And my Daedric armor unnecessarily passes the armor cap twice (mostly because I can)Master Criminal was a fun one to go for. Mostly, I just went to every city and killed a guard. Except Whiterun. I killed Nazeem.I hate Nazeem. He's my least favorite NPC in the game.@ Basilisk; There are no limits on magic. Thus, you must reinforce the walls with Bone Dragons.~In other news, my newest, pure mage character isn't even halfway to level 50, but he can already wipe Dragon Priests across the map singlehandedly. Well, not quite. Breton Magic Resistance + Tower Stone Resistance for 50% Resist Magic, plus a Potion of Destruction for +60% Damage, and a bunch of other potions...Giants Toe + Wheat is a 1000 GP potion for him when I use Krosis, Hide Bracers of Minor Alchemy, and a ring I enchanted. Potions that cost that much cause almost 15% of a skill increase on their own. Unlike Potions of Restore Health... I think a thousand of those can get you one skill up.EDIT: Also. Potions are now my currency.-Toa Levacius Zehvor Edited July 28, 2012 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

In my Skyrim experience I've mutated into a werewolf just twice. Once, when you recieve this power during the Companions questlinbe. I get to the passage, go to Skyrim and, just out of the Whiterun gates, a frost dragon attacks me.The second time, trying to acquire the Master Criminal achievement ( which I later found to be un-unlockable ). Riften guards needed just few arrows to kill me.I don't think I'll ever transform into beast form again. Too low health. I prefer my Daedric Armor.

This man speaks the truth. And my Daedric armor unnecessarily passes the armor cap twice (mostly because I can)Master Criminal was a fun one to go for. Mostly, I just went to every city and killed a guard. Except Whiterun. I killed Nazeem.I hate Nazeem. He's my least favorite NPC in the game.In other news, my newest, pure mage character isn't even halfway to level 50, but he can already wipe Dragon Priests across the map singlehandedly. Well, not quite. Breton Magic Resistance + Tower Stone Resistance for 50% Resist Magic, plus a Potion of Destruction for +60% Damage, and a bunch of other potions...Giants Toe + Wheat is a 1000 GP potion for him when I use Krosis, Hide Bracers of Minor Alchemy, and a ring I enchanted. Potions that cost that much cause almost 15% of a skill increase on their own. Unlike Potions of Restore Health... I think a thousand of those can get you one skill up.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

I can understand you, Nazeem is so boring...Also, I can't get Master Criminal because it's the Italian version. So, it's bugged and holds don't recognise bounty properly. Therefore, even if I did genocides in every possible city, even if I had at least 3000 septims of bounty, it still couldn't accept those and considered them as 0 septims.I think you've leveled up a lot with those Giants Toes, they are a very fast way to level up Alchemy.

[Wotz]

I killed Nazeem.I hate Nazeem. He's my least favorite NPC in the game.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

What I hate is how he acts so snobby even though he sleeps in an inn and criticizes the market stall owners all day.Well, I should have said that in the past tense, because I consumed his (black) heart.

[Havelock Vetinari]

@ Basilisk; There are no limits on magic. Thus, you must reinforce the walls with Bone Dragons.

Of course! Hm. Let me see...Ah yes. I'll also need a tower made out of the bones of elves with a skull throne contained within it. Probably have Elenwen's zombie shamble about to bring me food and books...Ah. If only I could do that in game. The Thalmor deserve it. Edited July 28, 2012 by Basilisk

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

I killed Nazeem.I hate Nazeem. He's my least favorite NPC in the game.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

What I hate is how he acts so snobby even though he sleeps in an inn

Hahaha, right!And, about annoying guys, Forsworn still are some of the toughest enemies, even at level 55. Especially those Briarhearts. I had to call a storm to clear an area. Edited July 28, 2012 by Emile A239

[Wotz]

And, about annoying guys, Forsworn still are some of the toughest enemies, even at level 55. Especially those Briarhearts. I had to call a storm to clear an area.

Really? I just charge in and spam power attacks and shield bashes, being the hardheaded Nord Warrior that I am

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

And, about annoying guys, Forsworn still are some of the toughest enemies, even at level 55. Especially those Briarhearts. I had to call a storm to clear an area.

Really? I just charge in and spam power attacks and shield bashes, being the hardheaded Nord Warrior that I am

Perhaps because my Heeavy Armor skill is not high enough. But they're very fast at striking and have sharp senses. I've never gotten to assassinate one of them, and I've been for most of my Skyrim play time a Sneak master.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Really? My Vampire Assassin never had any trouble with them. Stabbed a Foresworn leader to death while he slept.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

I don't have any problem fighting Forsworn. But I still used Call Storm to wipe out an entire valley of them. It's that valley right outside of where you find the Ancient Shrouded Armor, with the teleporting Hagraven.Oh, they ran.@ Emile; Bugs suck. And yeah, it's the toes. It must be a bug, because the Fortify Health effects are 300 seconds instead of 60.@ Basilisk; Assassinations are fun. And yeah, I really hate Elenwen. She's the one who tortured Ulfric Stormcloak during the Great War, so really, I'm pretty much ready to destroy her and her embassy. Which I did, by kiting a Dragon over there and watching it kill everybody in the back where I couldn't reach. Keep in mind this is Level 50 and I'm using a normal Dragon, not a Blood Dragon or Frost Dragon or Elder Dragon or Ancient Dragon or Starting to Fall Apart Because He's So Dang Old Dragon.@ Wotz; He and his wife were supposed to own Chillwind (?) Farm outside the city. But they never finished the farm, or its space in the world. It's not his fault that Bethesda didn't finish the game. But everything else is, including the return of the Dragons and the Great War. With that in mind, there was no problem killing him. After all, he caused thousands of deaths. Terrible of him.Or maybe I just despised him for not addressing me as God-King of the Mortal and Immortal, as is my rightful title.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

Ah. Storm call. Is there any problem you can't solve?I'm hoping the next DLC gives me the chance to launch some Thalmor out of catapult. Why? Because.

[Angel Beat]

I barely use Call Storm, tbh.It tends to kill my follower.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I barely use Call Storm, tbh.

That's what expendable zombie thralls are for.

[Angel Beat]

Eww, zombies.

[Wotz]

Dang, I wish I'd waited until Dawnguard to get married. Serana is a much more worthy spouse than Jilsda or whatever the heck my current wife's name is. According to the Wiki you can't marry her though, so I guess I'm having an affair :lol:A werewolf having an affair with a pure vampire instead of his housecarl wife. That's the weirdest love story in Skyrim I've ever heard.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

"Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it can't solve?" - Xykon, Epic Lich SorcererYou are continuing down your path to the dark side, Basilisk.@ Wotz; Still a better love story than twilight. But if you think that's weird, you haven't seen the shippers. In any case, I prefer Ysolda to any of the Housecarls.Which leads me to this - what is the archetypical fairy tale, fantasy story that you all heard when you were little kids? The Dragon steals the princess, and the hero saves her.Which begs this - how is it that Skyrim, the first ES game with Dragons, and the first ES game where you can marry, doesn't have a Dragon kidnapping your spouse when you're away? That would be epic.Courier: I've got a letter. Let's see here... your wife got kidnapped by a Dragon.Dragonborn: ... what?<<< Rescue (Spouse's Name) from (Random Dragon Lair) and defeat (Dragons Name)>>>-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Edited July 28, 2012 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Wotz]

Someone needs to make a moderator of that, like with the castle from Shrek or something.

[Havelock Vetinari]

"Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it can't solve?" - Xykon, Epic Lich SorcererYou are continuing down your path to the dark side, Basilisk.

Been there. Done that. Completed the perk tree.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Good news everyone!I've just found that the vampire skin-tone change for my favorite race, the Bretons is bugged. Head doesn't match the rest of the body. So I'm experimenting with Nords and I think-I think-with a few more iterations, I'll have a character that looks human. Now I've made a test character to test out the effects of Vamprisim on Nords. I'm worried it might destroy my lovingly crafted faces.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

I got Skyrim for Christmas. it's one of my favorite games. Right now my main is a khajiit named Do'Rakha. The only real problem that I have with this game is that killing nazi Stormcloak patrols gets me a bounty, even though the Imperial Legion won the Civil War. How long is the Dawnguard questline?

Dawnguard is a 0 hour questline.Wait. Do you have an X-Box? Oh, then it's like 20, 30 hours or something. Dunno.And Nazi. Pfft. As if we haven't heard that one before. Everybody always uses the same crude names for the Stormcloaks. *Sigh*EDIT: @ Basilisk; Not too much as long as you don't get bugged. My Female Imperial didn't really look any different, asides from skin tone changes.-Toa Levacius Zehvor Edited July 28, 2012 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

Hey! I admit they have a point! A good point! I just don't like how they treat the lizard-folk!

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Hey! I admit they have a point! A good point! I just don't like how they treat the lizard-folk!

Bah! The Argonians are a bunch of tree worshiping (admittedly, the trees are immortal, hyper intelligent life forms) savages. Except for the ones that aren't. In any case, the Dunmer behaved no differently in Morrowind to Nords living there, and the Argonians, as stated above, are as xenophobic as it gets. The Altmer and Bosmer speak for themselves. It's perfectly alright for elves and lizard freaks to murder anybody who enters their homeland, but not Nords?Sorry, but if you tossed a Nord into Black Marsh, there would be absolutely no difference. And at least the Stormcloaks don't eat/torture any of the Argonians living in Windhelm, they just throw them out on the docks. And at least they don't murder you for worshiping a god. And at least they don't cannibalize. Or completely disregard customs and traditions. And at least they try to claim their right to rule the realm through honorable combat.I should stop this, really. Before it goes out of control.To celebrate life I've changed to a Stormcloak avatar. Woot.Edit: @ Axalara; Racist? Look above. They're barely the worst, when you compare them to the elves, and the argonians, and pretty much everybody except the Khajiit - and they just care about money and moon sugar. Ulfric has shown himself to be a charismatic leader and a skilled tactician in combat, and is the best choice to have against the Thalmor.-Toa Levacius Zehvor Do not link to sites with forums. -B6 Edited July 29, 2012 by Black Six

[Havelock Vetinari]

Oh no. I would like an Elder Scrolls debate. It's refreshing to argue about fantasy politics. The one kind of politics that doesn't depress me. Though how would you feel about a different subject? Say Necromancy?..Incidentally, test complete. Results semi-conclusive. Managed to design a human-looking Nord and promptly infected him. The face becomes gaunt and bony, which is to be expected. The skin change is nowhere near as radical as that of the Breton male. Eye color change remains consistent however. Will report further observations as they are noticed....Oh. I just realized I sound like that fellow who wrote the Physicality of Werewolves. That's not good.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Point 3 - No, it's not. And at least you don't sound the like guy who wrote 'N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis!'Point 1 - It's just magic, but you shouldn't be turning up graves or using bodies in tombs and the like. Personally, I couldn't care less about what somebody did with my body, as long as it wasn't used as a prop in a Twilight movie or 2012. That would be a shame to my ancestors and descendants alike for centuries to come.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Katuko]

The Thalmor are completely off their rocker. Their ultimate plan is to kill everything, it seems. They want neither the Empire or the Stormcloaks to win, just tire each other out. In the end I don't think it really matters whether it's Tullius or Ulfric that gets to tango with them, because in stories where the world's is at stake it all tends to end in an alliance against the greater evil anyways, main character at the center.That said, I preferred not to do the Civil War quests. Both sides have their ups and downs, which is the point. If Ulfric wins, the Nords get back their normal way of life, while some racism might be present. If the Empire wins, it seems like the races can cooperate, but Talos is lost. Talos going away due to Empire victory seems to be mostly because of the Thlamor influencing them, though, so I wonder if the problem couldn't be solved by joining forces against the Thalmor first.They are really like the Nazis of Elder Scrolls: Nobody really likes them, and their ultimate plan threatens the existence of everything. So the question I have: If the Thalmor were no longer an issue, and the Empire wouldn't need to outlaw Talos... would any side be truly better than the other?

Which leads me to this - what is the archetypical fairy tale, fantasy story that you all heard when you were little kids? The Dragon steals the princess, and the hero saves her.Which begs this - how is it that Skyrim, the first ES game with Dragons, and the first ES game where you can marry, doesn't have a Dragon kidnapping your spouse when you're away? That would be epic.

Depending on the damsel... just marry the dragon. :PWhat I find interesting is that while you can marry a lot of people, there are no Khajit or Altmer available without mods or console commands. Altmer I can kinda see, since most of the ones present are Thalmor anyways, but while Khajit are wanderers and rather rare I'd have thought at least one or two would be there as an option. A few (very few) Argonians are, after all.

Personally, I couldn't care less about what somebody did with my body, as long as it wasn't used as a prop in a Twilight movie or 2012. That would be a shame to my ancestors and descendants alike for centuries to come.

What about it being used as an undead servant? Simple stuff like taking coats or cleaning shelves. Would that be down with you? :lol:I've told my sister that if she feels like it, she can stuff my corpse and use it as a coat hanger. Or really, do whatever with it, since I'm dead and all. Offer gleefully accepted. Should I be worried? Edited July 28, 2012 by Katuko

[Havelock Vetinari]

Well. We have nothing to debate about on that front then. With one small change, if robbing a grave or tomb would allow me to say, raise an undead army to save a town under attack by Thalmor, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Bah! The Argonians are a bunch of tree worshiping (admittedly, the trees are immortal, hyper intelligent life forms) savages. Except for the ones that aren't. In any case, the Dunmer behaved no differently in Morrowind to Nords living there, and the Argonians, as stated above, are as xenophobic as it gets. The Altmer and Bosmer speak for themselves. It's perfectly alright for elves and lizard freaks to murder anybody who enters their homeland, but not Nords?

They've built a viable civilization and managed to invade Morrowind and win. They are many things, but savages isn't one of them. Savages is a loaded term anyhow-by our standards, Rome was full of savages and yet it's often held up as a true civilization. I fully admit they're aren't perfect. They're just as flawed as the Nords. Flaws don't excuse flaws. Witness what Ulfric did to Markarth. I have eyewitness testimony! Don't deny it!

Sorry, but if you tossed a Nord into Black Marsh, there would be absolutely no difference. And at least the Stormcloaks don't eat/torture any of the Argonians living in Windhelm, they just throw them out on the docks. And at least they don't murder you for worshiping a god. And at least they don't cannibalize. Or completely disregard customs and traditions. And at least they try to claim their right to rule the realm through honorable combat.

Not all traditions and customs are good ones. Witness the Temple in Morrowind. Or the traditions and customs of the Sload. Also, the Bosmer religion is a bit...squick...by our standards, but it doesn't seek out innocent victims to kill and eat. As for the right to rule through honorable combat...there's no honor in combat. It's dirty, by it's very nature. Edited July 29, 2012 by Black Six

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

@ Katuko;I'm going to point out the irony in saying 'the Thalmor just want them to tire each other out' and then saying 'I don't want to choose'. If you choose one, they win the war quickly and the Thalmor lose. If you don't, more Imperials and Stormcloaks die, and the war continues.The thing that the Thalmor did that most upsets me, other than banning Talos and wanting to destroy the universe and mass attempts at genocide and the great war and everything else they did, would be claiming they defeated the Oblivion crisis. Pfft. I bet their wizards don't talk to Sheogorath much, if you get my meaning.And as for my dead body, I would be more than happy to have my corpse put to use. But I doubt it would be of much.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@ Basilisk;The Argonians were only able to invade Morrowind and win because most of the province got ripped apart by an asteroid crashing into the center of Vvardenfell and making a volcano erupt. The Dunmer could have easily repulsed them if they still had their full strength. But as it is, they didn't.And Ulfric Stormcloak challenged the High King to combat. By Nordic traditions, he should have been eligible for High King simply for being the stronger warrior. Some might say his use of the voice was unfair, but it wasn't a form of magic or trickery, it was making use of his actual abilities to show that he was a master of the voice, yet another thing to rise him above a weak predecessor.And squick doesn't begin to describe getting the munchies for your best friend. ~~~~Oh, time to post. Remember everybody - the last Towers cannot fall. If the last of the Towers fall, the Thalmor win. If Talos ceases to be worshipped, he will not be able to maintain the towers. Reality will end. The Thalmor win.And don't try looking up obscure Elder Scrolls lore unless you hate your brain. If you really want to mess with yourself that much, play Slender.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

I subscribe to the greater/lesser spirit approach. Which is to say, I subscribe to the old ways mentioned in the Gods and Worship. It makes the most fundamental sense and before anyone brings it up, the relative similarity of each societies creation myths could be attributed to cultural diaspora, so I don't put to much stock in Talos existing as the god described, let alone being the only thing holding up reality. He's probably just a very powerful spirit.

The Argonians were only able to invade Morrowind and win because most of the province got ripped apart by an asteroid crashing into the center of Vvardenfell and making a volcano erupt. The Dunmer could have easily repulsed them if they still had their full strength. But as it is, they didn't.

Which shows intelligence and the ability to mobilize and move quickly on their part....as I recall, they also survived the Oblivion Crisis mostly unscathed while so-called civilized Kingdoms burnt.

And Ulfric Stormcloak challenged the High King to combat. By Nordic traditions, he should have been eligible for High King simply for being the stronger warrior. Some might say his use of the voice was unfair, but it wasn't a form of magic or trickery, it was making use of his actual abilities to show that he was a master of the voice, yet another thing to rise him above a weak predecessor.

Nordic tradition is...not a good ideal. Trail by combat isn't a good way to pick a leader. If a fellow can swing a great sword well, that's well and good. But he might not be all that bright in regards to politics. Better to have someone who can't hit worth a darn but knows how to play the game and win then someone who only knows how to hit a problem until goes away. The Thalmor problem won't be solved with brute force, at least, not at first. Their grip needs to be weakened-a rebuilt Thieves guild would be invaluable for this. Or say, the College of Winterhold and it's illusion spells. Both of these things the Nords disdain when they could help win the war.Do not link to sites with forums. -B6 Edited July 29, 2012 by Black Six

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. Talos obviously has a great deal of power over the world. In Morrowind, you encounter an avatar of him manifested on the physical world that grants you the ability of supernatural luck, in the fortress of Ghostgate just before you go about saving the entire world from an insane self-made god. In Oblivon and Skyrim, you can see that his shrines cure your ails and empower your Voice, just as his Amulets do.That book doesn't really work because we know of the concepts of Aedra and Daedra. The Aedra were the spirits who remained on Mundus and helped create it after being tricked by Lorkhan, and both Arkay and Talos eventually joined them (Arkay, like Talos, was a mortal man at one point). The Daedra were those who did not participate, and maintain their full powers. One thing of note is that the Aedra can die, just as Talos can die by having himself cut off from worshippers. The Daedra, however, are immortal spirits and can never die - if they are destroyed, they just reform in Oblivion.And he's not the only thing that's holding up reality. He's just a major part of it. The Towers (White-Gold, Crystal-Like-Law, etc.) were all representations of things holding up reality that have been collapsing. Reality is already falling apart because so many have been destroyed. Talos is one of the few things supporting the remaining ones - cut off his worshipers, he dies, and reality gets even weaker.Heck, the players are partially responsible. Look at Alduins Wall - the events of the previous games almost all led to one of the towers ending. All of this that's been happening is the reason that Alduin was able to get free of the currents of time in the first place. The Thalmor aren't helping at all - their destruction of White Gold Tower in the Imperial City and attempts to root out Talos are just two things. Who knows what else they're acting out.2. Yeah, they're intelligent. The fact that they're intelligent in the games show they're intelligent. But they're still brutal, and compared to the other races of Tamriel have little civilization. And really, when most of a population gets wiped out, and they're still suffering from their figures of worship all dying off/vanishing... well, I'm pretty sure that the village of Falkreath could have taken Morrowind.3. That's why Ulfric Stormcloak currently counts amongst his most trusted allies an individual who is perfectly willing to employ magic and mages in combat against the Thalmor. And sure, you would be right if Ulfric was just some guy swinging a greatsword. The problem is that he's also the most charismatic figure in all of Skyrim, and a good tactician.And besides, we've got an army of Dragons. Or at least, wewill. Frankly, shouting an Ancient Dragon or four into submission and forcing them to swear fealty should be enough to wipe out a legion of Thalmor. Because Dragons are immune to Illusion magic. And that was their only home from...

Ancient Dragon: Strun Bah Qo!Thalmor Leader: What's that? *Gets blasted dead*Other Thalmor: Everybody get to cover! *Blasted**Thalmor dying everywhere*Blood Dragons (3): *Land in the middle and begin ripping everybody to shreds as they are wont to do* Yol Toor Shul!Dragonborn: *On a hill nearby, with Odahviing* Tell them they're doing a good job with the Thalmor, once they're done. They're free to take any survivors as slaves or fodder, along with dividing any of the treasures carried by the Thalmor, save the weapons - Elven craft is good, and our troops could use it.High King Ulfric Stormcloak: *As Odahviing flies away* Truly, Dragonborn, this is a glorious day. The Elven squads sent to move through the Rift were stopped just south of Autumnwatch Tower by our forces, and with their main force gone, we shall surely prove victorious on this day.Blood Dragon: Fus Roh Dah! *Sends an entire squad of archers flying*High King Ulfric Stormcloak: Once the storm ends, call the dragons off. We can mop up the survivors.Dragonborn: Then we shall bloody our blades before the end of this day.

And before you say 'but they only use their breath shouts', think again. Old books describe them as being able to slow time and summon storms from nowhere. They can easily do so, we just don't see them using them in game.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

Talos obviously has a great deal of power over the world. In Morrowind, you encounter an avatar of him manifested on the physical world that grants you the ability of supernatural luck, in the fortress of Ghostgate just before you go about saving the entire world from an insane self-made god. In Oblivon and Skyrim, you can see that his shrines cure your ails and empower your Voice, just as his Amulets do.

Like I said, a powerful spirit, likely capable of granting boons. The effects of his shrines could be explained via magical enhancement as could the luck. Magic is capable of many things and it only makes sense that a Spirit would have access to it. Witness the Wispmothers, whom I believe are lesser spirits or rather, aborted gods. Perhaps the god-spirits of the late Snow Elves, barely kept intact by the degenerate worship of the few Falmer who remember them. There is nothing indicating he is a god, merely a powerful spirit.

That book doesn't really work because we know of the concepts of Aedra and Daedra. The Aedra were the spirits who remained on Mundus and helped create it after being tricked by Lorkhan, and both Arkay and Talos eventually joined them (Arkay, like Talos, was a mortal man at one point). The Daedra were those who did not participate, and maintain their full powers. One thing of note is that the Aedra can die, just as Talos can die by having himself cut off from worshippers. The Daedra, however, are immortal spirits and can never die - if they are destroyed, they just reform in Oblivion.

Bah. Pure myth. Aedra and Daedra are names, nothing more. There is no proof they created Mundus and Occam's razor would suggest it is a planet much like Earth, formed in the same way. The abnormalities with the moons can easily be explained by the presence of magic, which appears to be able to defy the laws of the universe. There is no fundamental proof Talos is a god, therefore, in my view it is likely he is not. I'm certain the Akvari have their own version of events and they'll be just as wrong. The Spirit/Lesser Spirit approach neatly explains everything and requires the least modification from our normal reality. Occam's razor.

And he's not the only thing that's holding up reality. He's just a major part of it. The Towers (White-Gold, Crystal-Like-Law, etc.) were all representations of things holding up reality that have been collapsing. Reality is already falling apart because so many have been destroyed. Talos is one of the few things supporting the remaining ones - cut off his worshipers, he dies, and reality gets even weaker.

Hardly likely. Crystal-Like-Law was a tower, a great tower certainly, enchanted without a doubt, but the idea that it's the only thing keeping the Sun in the sky is...well, unlikely. Spirits are ascended mortals, but reality is hardly dependent on them.

Yeah, they're intelligent. The fact that they're intelligent in the games show they're intelligent. But they're still brutal, and compared to the other races of Tamriel have little civilization. And really, when most of a population gets wiped out, and they're still suffering from their figures of worship all dying off/vanishing... well, I'm pretty sure that the village of Falkreath could have taken Morrowind.

The Dunmer enslaved races, the Altmer I don't need to explain, the Nords will fight amongst themselves or anyone else (witness: their history)...violence seems to be the standard here. But the fact we meet significant populations of all these races with no interest in war and domination, it's wrong to judge them by the actions of their respective nations. The lizard-folk on the docks seem nice enough and hardly deserve their treatment. Taking down the Stormcloaks would improve their quality of life a great deal-as it would the Dunmer. The Thalmor hunters that would come for Talos worshipers is regrettable, but they can hide or the Thalmor can be slain by say, the local Dragonborn. But the racism against other races will be here to stay in Skyrim if the Stormcloaks win, it's a long term bet taking them down. Certainly. But the Thalmor are a problem that won't last long. As you said, with some Dragons on the side of, say, the Empire, the Thalmor will fall.In short, racism would be gone, or at least, stamped into the underground and the Thalmor would die. Win win.

That's why Ulfric Stormcloak currently counts amongst his most trusted allies an individual who is perfectly willing to employ magic and mages in combat against the Thalmor. And sure, you would be right if Ulfric was just some guy swinging a greatsword. The problem is that he's also the most charismatic figure in all of Skyrim, and a good tactician.

I don't deny that. It's his methods I decry. Witness Markarth. Nothing justifies that.

And besides, we've got an army of Dragons. Or at least, wewill. Frankly, shouting an Ancient Dragon or four into submission and forcing them to swear fealty should be enough to wipe out a legion of Thalmor. Because Dragons are immune to Illusion magic. And that was their only home from...

That I agree with. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1, 2, and 3. You might think that. But you'd be wrong.Whether that is your belief, or you accept the existence of actual gods, there is one thing that can be held true - the Towers hold reality. Destroy all of the towers, and reality is gone. Talos, whether you believe he is a powerful spirit or a god, is helping where other towers (Red Mountain, White-Gold Tower, Crystal-Like-Law, Walk-Brass) have fallen in securing realty. And it's not the towers, really, but their stones - the Amulet of Kings for White-Gold Tower, for instance.The question, of course, is how. The how is answer by the fact that he is a mortal man that became a god. Get rid of Talos, and the universe no longer has a mortal man bound to it. The next step is then, of course, to kill mortal man. Reality falls. The end. And the elves become immortal.The Dwemer tried the same thing. Only it didn't involve genocide and the destruction of gods.4. Only with Skyrim independent from the Empire, all remaining traces of Thalmor power will be destroyed long before a war against the Dominion begins, so the Thalmor can't also cause trouble from within with their remaining Justiciars. And as stated above, that only helps against the Thalmor if the Thalmor were fighting a war of physical battle - what they're doing is trying to destroy all of humanity, nay, the possibility of humans existing.5. Yeah. He routed the Forsworn and killed their leaders. I can't really speak on their behalf - they consort with Hagravens, undergo terrible rituals, murder people... oh, and the goat heads. Those are kind of creepy. No, really. They're really flipping creepy.6. Of course.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

Whether that is your belief, or you accept the existence of actual gods, there is one thing that can be held true - the Towers hold reality. Destroy all of the towers, and reality is gone. Talos, whether you believe he is a powerful spirit or a god, is helping where other towers (Red Mountain, White-Gold Tower, Crystal-Like-Law, Walk-Brass) have fallen in securing realty. And it's not the towers, really, but their stones - the Amulet of Kings for White-Gold Tower, for instance.

Towers are towers, they're aren't what's holding up reality. We have universal laws for that. If reality was falling apart, there would be I think, drastic changes to the way things work. But gravity is still in effect. The second law of thermodynamics seems to be functioning.

The Dwemer tried the same thing. Only it didn't involve genocide and the destruction of gods.

The Dwemer certainly meddled with powerful magic, that I won't contest. But there is nothing substantiated to back up the god angle. The Dwemer left precious little records behind. It could have reasonably been extremely powerful magic. Likely a mass malfunction, perhaps a massive liminal bridge or some such. The experiment conducted by a learned sage in Winterhold would seem to agree with this, as he vanished as the Dwemer did. However, a skilled mage is able to summon his shade. Much like the shades found in Dwemer cities in Morrowind.

Only with Skyrim independent from the Empire, all remaining traces of Thalmor power will be destroyed long before a war against the Dominion begins, so the Thalmor can't also cause trouble from within with their remaining Justiciars. And as stated above, that only helps against the Thalmor if the Thalmor were fighting a war of physical battle - what they're doing is trying to destroy all of humanity, nay, the possibility of humans existing.

Hardly. As my arguments above stated, they may think they're destroying the universe but all they are likely doing is weakening a powerful spirit. Albeit one of symbolic importance to humanity. The Acturian Heresy has some interesting things to say on the matter of Talos, who knows what magics he may have learned from the Underking.

5. Yeah. He routed the Forsworn and killed their leaders. I can't really speak on their behalf - they consort with Hagravens, undergo terrible rituals, murder people... oh, and the goat heads. Those are kind of creepy. No, really. They're really flipping creepy.

Eyewitness testimony, he executed civilians who refused to fight with him and people who had merely talked to the Foresworn. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. The laws of the universe are still intact because reality is still, for the most part, being held up. It's not things like gravity that are failing - it's more magical things. When the Dragonfires went out and the Amulet of Kings was separated from the Dragonborn Emperor, it, and the tower it represented, no longer held back the planes of Oblivion. And we get TES IV.Luckily, Martin Septim and the Champion were able to conjure an avatar of the Dragon God of Time, Akatosh, and he was able to reseal the links between Nirn and Oblivion. The statue in the Temple of the One symbolizes that. However, if you look at the game Skyrim, you can see the Daedric Princes have a lot more influence on Mundus then they had in the past. You have glowing spheres, wretched abysses, drawing people into their realms... all things not see in the past!The fact that the end times seem to be rushing closer to their happening can be seen by the return of Alduin the World-Eater. The Song of the Dragonborn, and the verses there - the writings on Alduins Wall. All of it shows the events, the weakening of reality, that lead to Alduin returning to the currents of time after his banishment.2. Powerful magic? They were meddling with more than that - they were meddling with the Heart of Lorkahn. There can be no question that the Heart could make one immortal. Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil never suffered from age, and had powers enough to rival Daedric Princes in combat on the mortal realm. Fighting against Dagoth Ur shows just how much - he cannot be killed, and when you do destroy him, he reforms in the Heart Chamber for round two. His Ash Vampires were tied to the Heart as well, and to him. The blight storms and the like were all caused by the power he had from the Heart.It's impossible to know what happened with the Dwarves, but one thing can be known for certain - they were trying to ascend past their own mortality. Whether or not they succeeded is still unknown.3. That is still where you're wrong. You're looking at things as if it were the real world, but it's not. There are a few things helping aid an unstable mortal realm from becoming as it was in the before times, one where things are actually mortal, and not immortal as the Thalmor seek to be. Destroying the towers and weakening reality isn't meant to kill Talos, it's his destruction that will help weaken reality.4. Do I agree with his methods? No. But he was trying to be thorough, and to make a point. He may not have succeeded 100% on the first, but he certainly did make a lasting point. And you don't see the Stormcloaks destroying Solitude, do you?-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Ultimate_Kardas]

Sabre Cat from nowhere? Bam, there goes a fifth of your health. And you can't heal yourself unless there are NPCs in the area. Really, it's only practical using werewolf form in bandit lairs and the like. Out in the wilderness, you're dead meat. And I dread seeing how a Werewolf handles against a frost breathing Dragon that can sap away their stamina and can't be tossed back.

I don't know what kind of super-sabre cats you're fighting. Besides, they die in about 1 hit. And as Doctor said, there's a perk (the most useful one IMO), which lets you feed off everything except draugr and skeletons. And of course a werewolf can't fight a dragon very well. Heck, a mostly melee player also has a lot of trouble fighting a dragon as well. The stamina thing isn't really a problem though, considering that a werewolf's stamina refills super quickly.

Which begs this - how is it that Skyrim, the first ES game with Dragons, and the first ES game where you can marry, doesn't have a Dragon kidnapping your spouse when you're away? That would be epic.

I know this is a joke and all, but I really question the intelligence of a dragon that wants to do this. "Hmm, maybe I should make the dragonborn really mad by stealing his wife. He only defeated and trapped Alduin's right hand man and then killed Alduin himself. I can imagine this going just fine for me!"And I do think it's pretty cool that your friends can get kidnapped by vampires. One of the first people they kidnapped for me was Aela.

Bah! The Argonians are a bunch of tree worshiping (admittedly, the trees are immortal, hyper intelligent life forms) savages. Except for the ones that aren't. In any case, the Dunmer behaved no differently in Morrowind to Nords living there, and the Argonians, as stated above, are as xenophobic as it gets. The Altmer and Bosmer speak for themselves. It's perfectly alright for elves and lizard freaks to murder anybody who enters their homeland, but not Nords?

I hate that kind of logic though. "If they're doing something mean, I should be able to do it too!" Just because someone else is being rude doesn't give you the right to. Sometimes you have to step up and be the bigger man.I'm not saying you're wrong though. You make a very good point. Especially in a world made up of multiple species.

Yeah, they're intelligent. The fact that they're intelligent in the games show they're intelligent. But they're still brutal, and compared to the other races of Tamriel have little civilization.

Woah now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Argonians may not be the most civilized race (though most of the ones in the games are pretty darn nice), but at least they're not orcs.~U_K~ Edited July 29, 2012 by Ultimate_Kardas

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. However, if you look at the game Skyrim, you can see the Daedric Princes have a lot more influence on Mundus then they had in the past. You have glowing spheres, wretched abysses, drawing people into their realms... all things not see in the past!The fact that the end times seem to be rushing closer to their happening can be seen by the return of Alduin the World-Eater. The Song of the Dragonborn, and the verses there - the writings on Alduins Wall. All of it shows the events, the weakening of reality, that lead to Alduin returning to the currents of time after his banishment.

The enchantment wrought by the Dragon-spirit Akatosh did have a beneficial effect that seems to be failing. Though the damage seems to have been done. I would not expect it to get much worse. The current situation is a far cry from the invasive armies of Dagon. Alduin returned because of the power of an Elder Scroll sending him forwards in time, the Elder Scrolls are immensely powerful magical artifacts, but hardly proof of what you claim.

Powerful magic? They were meddling with more than that - they were meddling with the Heart of Lorkahn. There can be no question that the Heart could make one immortal. Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil never suffered from age, and had powers enough to rival Daedric Princes in combat on the mortal realm. Fighting against Dagoth Ur shows just how much - he cannot be killed, and when you do destroy him, he reforms in the Heart Chamber for round two. His Ash Vampires were tied to the Heart as well, and to him. The blight storms and the like were all caused by the power he had from the Heart.It's impossible to know what happened with the Dwarves, but one thing can be known for certain - they were trying to ascend past their own mortality. Whether or not they succeeded is still unknown.

Indeed. One should only meddle with the physical manifestation of powerful spirit with the utmost caution. I deeply respect the Dwemer, though I suspect disaster befell them. I do hold out hope however, that somewhere, a lost colony still exists. The things Mundus could learn from them! Imagine what a Centurion would do to the Thalmor! Spirits are, by their very nature, deeply empowered with magic. Hence the powerful magic line.

3. That is still where you're wrong. You're looking at things as if it were the real world, but it's not. There are a few things helping aid an unstable mortal realm from becoming as it was in the before times, one where things are actually mortal, and not immortal as the Thalmor seek to be. Destroying the towers and weakening reality isn't meant to kill Talos, it's his destruction that will help weaken reality.

It's simply Occam's razor. Applied. The simplest explanation is one that requires the least deviation from our reality and our understanding of it. The theories I have presented match that criteria. You have no evidence for claims beyond the word of people who follow the gods and make a study of them, people who are somewhat biased on the matter. Looking at it from neutral perspective and applying skepticism to some of the works published indicate there are no solid recorded events that the Gods or these Towers were involved in that could not be explained by magic or the intercession of spirits.

4. Do I agree with his methods? No. But he was trying to be thorough, and to make a point. He may not have succeeded 100% on the first, but he certainly did make a lasting point. And you don't see the Stormcloaks destroying Solitude, do you?

Many man have tried to make that point. Most of them are vilified in our history books. Ulfric is right about many things, but the ends only justify the means if the means themselves are justified. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

@ U_K;1. I don't know either, but it was at Level 30 or so and that Sabre Cat was able to knock me down. And I had invested about 60/40 health and stamina in that character. Now, mind you, I ripped him to shreds after his sneak attack. But still...2. You think I'm joking? Show up to the Dragon lair and get ganged up on by three lower level Dragons (maybe at Levels 1-8 just a normal Dragon, but by Level 50 you have a trio of Frosts going after you) and you've got something that's at least memorable. Or maybe it would just be a super high level dragon.3. It isn't right. I won't argue with that. I'm not much for the Stormcloak intolerance. But the fact that people don't look at both sides of the story amuses me to no end.4. I admire the orcs, to some extent. At least, true orcs who follow orc customs and traditions. Nice armor too. Unlike Argonians and their... leaf armor and spears?@ Basilisk;1. And wouldn't you find it strange, then, that mortals were able to discern based on the writings of the scrolls what events would precede the return of the World Eater? None of this was random - it was all as was written in prophecy before the current age.When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn. Look at those writings. It all started with Jagar Tharn sundering the Staff of Chaos. Then, the fall of the Numinidum and the events at Red Mountain. The Emperor is assassinated, and the stone of the White Tower is destroyed. Luckily, the events of Oblivion managed to, just as they began it, end it. Saved reality. White Tower, or the White-Gold Tower, was destroyed by the Aldermi afterwards, but that was of little consequence.And then, with all of these events, Alduin breaks through the passage of time and returns to the mortal realm. Think about what Esbern says, about how you see the signs but do not recognize them.You isn't just direct at your character. Knowing all of this that comes from the lore, but not recognizing the signs of what is happening, means that Esbern is also talking to you.Haven't you figured it out yet? What more needs to happen before you all wake up and see what's going on?Sure, he might have been talking only about Alduin. But I believe it's the best quote I can use to address your responses.2. One Dwemer did survive. He survived because he wasn't on Mundus when the dwarves did what they did. He then ended up getting Corprus and becoming a bloated, legless creature in the most awesome Dwemer Spider/Wheelchair ever.Whatever happened, though, it wasn't a disaster. Or it could have been. Maybe it's what they wanted, maybe not. Maybe both. Who knows - but they're gone, and have either passed into another realm or just died. Or both. Impossible to say. It's what happens when you mess with the fundamental building blocks of a plane.We'll have to wait and see, though.3. Which becomes pointless when things happen that said Razor cannot explain. The Elder Scrolls, for one, cannot be explained by magic - and they're the title of the series, for goodness sake. Nobody can explain them. Trying to explain them with word doesn't even work, alas poor Septimus. They don't even really exist, but they do. Nobody knows how many there are. Nobody knows much of anything.I raise your Occams Razor to what I shall call Mehrunes Razor - the universe of a fantasy setting is a fantasy setting, and you have to immediately assume that every strange story, rumor, or pretty much anything is going to be true, because the laws of our world cannot be applied to them - Dragons being able to actually fly despite the physical impossibility, fire coming from peoples hands.Furthermore, according to Mehrunes Razor, anything and everything is and is not possible. At the same time. What you know cannot be applied purposefully to a work of fiction. Especially the Elder Scrolls, considering the entire thing is, lorewise, just a figment from the dreams of a sleeping godhead, and that everything that is, is all just part of that.Mindscrew.4. I love how everything above this is all about the metaphysics of a fictional universe, but this is just talking about morals. :PAnyways. History is written by the winners. When Skyrim is united under a High King and has a stable central government that can stand against the Dominion as the Redguards of Hammerfell did, then Ulfrics actions at Markarth will no longer be important. He'll be loved by some, hated by others, but most will respect him for having power and using it.And the means were justified. Making a point. That was the justification. Was it a good one? Not necessarily. But it was one. And killing off a couple hundred people may not be my slice of pie, but you can hardly say that the Empire weren't responsible for any massacres during their time around.Heck, if Dovy were still posting on this topic, he could probably list a dozen of them. From Morrowind. On the island of Vvardenfell. In the same year.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Edited July 29, 2012 by Toa Levacius Zehvor