The Elder Scrolls

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. And wouldn't you find it strange, then, that mortals were able to discern based on the writings of the scrolls what events would precede the return of the World Eater? None of this was random - it was all as was written in prophecy before the current age.

Actually, according the USEP article, the future predicted by the scrolls can change, or isn't definite. The Elder Scrolls are probably a magical version of some sort of advanced probability computer. With magical time-traveling abnormalities thrown in.

Look at those writings. It all started with Jagar Tharn sundering the Staff of Chaos. Then, the fall of the Numinidum and the events at Red Mountain. The Emperor is assassinated, and the stone of the White Tower is destroyed. Luckily, the events of Oblivion managed to, just as they began it, end it. Saved reality. White Tower, or the White-Gold Tower, was destroyed by the Aldermi afterwards, but that was of little consequence.

Reality doesn't need saving, it's held up by universal laws. The Elder Scrolls prove nothing, they are likely the relics of some long lost advanced magical civilization, or penned by a powerful spirit. The advanced magic involved means both are equally likely.

2. One Dwemer did survive. He survived because he wasn't on Mundus when the dwarves did what they did. He then ended up getting Corprus and becoming a bloated, legless creature in the most awesome Dwemer Spider/Wheelchair ever.Whatever happened, though, it wasn't a disaster. Or it could have been. Maybe it's what they wanted, maybe not. Maybe both. Who knows - but they're gone, and have either passed into another realm or just died. Or both. Impossible to say. It's what happens when you mess with the fundamental building blocks of a plane.We'll have to wait and see, though.

I know of him, a tragic tale. Whatever the Dwemer meddled in, be it spirit or as you contend, god, it's evident that if someone managed to harness it...It might have been an extension into their research regarding the Centurions-if a Soul Gem can power Centurion, what can the manifestation of a powerful spirit do? Well, we do know the answer to that actually....Well, the comparison of the Heart to a Soul Gem conjures all sorts of nasty possibilities for the fate of the Dwemer. That could explain the power of Dagoth Ur...using the souls of Dwemer dead to fuel his spells and armies. This just went someplace horrible.

Which becomes pointless when things happen that said Razor cannot explain. The Elder Scrolls, for one, cannot be explained by magic - and they're the title of the series, for goodness sake. Nobody can explain them. Trying to explain them with word doesn't even work, alas poor Septimus. They don't even really exist, but they do. Nobody knows how many there are. Nobody knows much of anything.

I've offered explanations above. Merely because something is difficult to understand does not mean it is impossible. There are still viable alternatives. The Razor is still in effect. The Elder Scrolls are difficult to explain, but I relish the challenge. Magic is a handy-catch all for this sort of thing.

I raise your Occams Razor to what I shall call Mehrunes Razor - the universe of a fantasy setting is a fantasy setting, and you have to immediately assume that every strange story, rumor, or pretty much anything is going to be true, because the laws of our world cannot be applied to them - Dragons being able to actually fly despite the physical impossibility, fire coming from peoples hands.

Magic. The addition of a new force does not mean the automatic negation of other forces, merely the modification of existing theories to accommodate those forces. Gravity is still in effect, the sun is still in the sky and the planet is still rotating. Normal forces are in effect, magic can merely suspend or modify them for awhile, depending on the users magicka.

Furthermore, according to Mehrunes Razor, anything and everything is and is not possible. At the same time. What you know cannot be applied purposefully to a work of fiction. Especially the Elder Scrolls, considering the entire thing is, lorewise, just a figment from the dreams of a sleeping godhead, and that everything that is, is all just part of that.

Show me the evidence. That's actually my battle cry. I charge into bandit forts shouting that as my Undead thralls follow me.

I love how everything above this is all about the metaphysics of a fictional universe, but this is just talking about morals.

And the morals are basically an afterthought here.

Anyways. History is written by the winners. When Skyrim is united under a High King and has a stable central government that can stand against the Dominion as the Redguards of Hammerfell did, then Ulfrics actions at Markarth will no longer be important. He'll be loved by some, hated by others, but most will respect him for having power and using it.

Not exactly. There are some interesting history books out there that observe the loser's side of things. The winner don't come off looking like the good guys. I cannot support Ulfric on a moral level. He talks of Nord freedom, but takes freedom away from others.

And the means were justified. Making a point. That was the justification. Was it a good one? Not necessarily. But it was one. And killing off a couple hundred people may not be my slice of pie, but you can hardly say that the Empire weren't responsible for any massacres during their time around.

Of course not. But the Empire, at least, seems to be learning. With Ulfric, the whole cycle would start up again. I'd take a government that's against racism but commits massacres over government that's racist and commits massacres. One is better, neither is ideal.

Heck, if Dovy were still posting on this topic, he could probably list a dozen of them. From Morrowind. On the island of Vvardenfell. In the same year.

It's against slave-holding elves. They don't count. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. That's because the Scrolls cannot be read for certain. What's written there changes almost every moment. But some things will always happen. The World Eater Returning. The sundering of the Staff. Everything that always happens in an Elder Scrolls game, no matter what. The scrolls with the events of Morrowind written on them probably have a trillion alternate ways of going because of how much more freedom you have with NPC interaction. Like killing Vivce or... well, anybody.2. Ah, flat-world atheism. But that's the thing - none of the spirits, as you call them, even have power over the scrolls. There is literally no being that exists in the ES Universe that can do anything other than guess at the Scrolls purpose. And again, the Scrolls aren't magic. No known magic is identified with them. They're just the Elder Scrolls, and they are. And aren't.3. Err.. they did go someplace, with that Centurion. That's the entire end fight of Morrowind. Dagoth Ur used the plans of Kagrnac to build a second Numidium, this one powered by the Heart of Lorkahn. The golem, Akulakhan, was destroyed by the Nerevarine before its completion, along with the Heart. The Mantella was used to simulate the Heart of Lorkahn with the first Numidium by the Empire, because they had no way to use the Heart itself.The Heart was not, however, a soul gem. It was a heart containing the full, remaining power of an Aedric (or Daedric, if you believe Mankar Cameron in his assertions that Mundus is a plane of Oblivion that the Aedra stole from Lorkahn - which I don't, mind you) god.4. The Elder Scrolls are impossible to explain, however. Try to explain them and... well, Septimus. And when you say magic is a handy catch-all, then what is magic? Is magic simply how you would explain what you cannot explain?5. Only the sun isn't in the sky. Well, not as we know it. It's not a star made of gas, it's a giant gap in the universe from which magic, and thus life, flows into the world. The planet rotates, but as it isn't in orbit with anything, it has no reason to. And I offer my counter. Rather than assuming everything is the same until proven otherwise, I state that everything is different until proven otherwise. As a work of fictional fantasy crafted by people of the real world, it must have some sets of familiarity, but if it did not it would be unrecognizable, and people couldn't empathize with the characters or have emotion/understanding.However, as a work of fictional fantasy, you cannot assume that things will be as they are in the real world. Instead, you must assume that they are not until the writings or what you view in that world prove otherwise. If you're told you're on Earth, that's one thing. But if you're told you're in another world where there's magic and gods and it's not Earth, everything changes. You have to assume so until otherwise. My base assumption with a fantasy setting like that is flat world, sun is magic sky hole or whatever. But that's because some of my first Fantasy books were the Chronicles of Narnia, the greatest fantasy kitchen sink ever made.Now this obviously doesn't work in Sci-Fi, or other genres of fiction. But in Fantasy it does.6. Look up the word CHIM. To put it simply, the entire world is just the figment of an all powerful beings imagination and you are actually a fragment of nothing. However, by fully accepting that fact, you become nothing, because you have conceived what you cannot conceive. However, if you do manage to conceive that you are nothing, and in fictional world, but still manage to say that "I am a person", then you gain the ability to change the world. To put it really simply, it's how the Devs explain the ' button opening the console. Supposedly, Vivec and Tiber Septim both achieved such status. Supposedly.~~~ Non-Metaphysics Section ~~~1. Of course.2. My Social Studies teacher had a whole list of books from the Southern viewpoint for the Civil War. But if you ask your average American, they'll say the South was a bunch of evil, racist slave owners. Because that's what they learned from the actual textbooks, and not the teachers showing other things.As far as Nord freedom - it's Skyrim. It's their home. They have every right to have freedom in their own homeland. The others who come there are living under Nord protection, in Nord occupied land. They have to adapt, or be the Dragonborn and the best soldier in the Stormcloak army. Those are their choices.3. I'd take a government that grants me the freedom to worship whoever I choose and protects my family from being executed by a bunch of pointy-eared, Simpson-skinned, hate-mongering, genocide-planning elves. But that's just me.4. Then, since you love the Argonians so much, how many do you think were killed in Black Marsh during attacks? I'd reckon a lot. Though what you're saying is pretty racist.-Toa Levacius Zehvor Do not post links to sites with forums. -B6

Edited July 29, 2012 by Black Six

[Havelock Vetinari]

First things first. This is the most fun I've had in days. I'm a debate-berserker. The more you throw at me, the happier I am!

1. That's because the Scrolls cannot be read for certain. What's written there changes almost every moment. But some things will always happen. The World Eater Returning. The sundering of the Staff. Everything that always happens in an Elder Scrolls game, no matter what. The scrolls with the events of Morrowind written on them probably have a trillion alternate ways of going because of how much more freedom you have with NPC interaction. Like killing Vivce or... well, anybody.

It's claimed that it's because they cannot be read for certain. The scientific method has not been applied to that, it's unsubstantiated and thus subject to Occam's razor. Something could have prevented the sundering of the staff, maybe something prevented the death of Generic Emperor 506 and stopped it from happening for a few centuries. There's no evidence that they aren't magical probability machines. Albeit very advanced ones, likely requiring aid from various tools lost long ago.

2. Ah, flat-world atheism. But that's the thing - none of the spirits, as you call them, even have power over the scrolls. There is literally no being that exists in the ES Universe that can do anything other than guess at the Scrolls purpose. And again, the Scrolls aren't magic. No known magic is identified with them. They're just the Elder Scrolls, and they are. And aren't.

So it's claimed. Again, there is no evidence that this is true. We only have a faulty historical record and the word of some beings that failed to understand them. Show me the evidence! Occam's razor still applies then, the simplest explanation, be it Spirit-based or ancient civilization based is likely the correct one. This is fun, we have two totally incompatible views of Mundus and they're both supported by various parts of the lore. This is why I love the Elder Scrolls. It's contradictory, it's records can be faulty. Just like the real world.

3. Err.. they did go someplace, with that Centurion. That's the entire end fight of Morrowind. Dagoth Ur used the plans of Kagrnac to build a second Numidium, this one powered by the Heart of Lorkahn. The golem, Akulakhan, was destroyed by the Nerevarine before its completion, along with the Heart. The Mantella was used to simulate the Heart of Lorkahn with the first Numidium by the Empire, because they had no way to use the Heart itself.

I'm aware of that, but the mere possibility that every action Dagoth Ur took could have been powered by the souls of the dead is...disturbing.

The Heart was not, however, a soul gem. It was a heart containing the full, remaining power of an Aedric (or Daedric, if you believe Mankar Cameron in his assertions that Mundus is a plane of Oblivion that the Aedra stole from Lorkahn - which I don't, mind you) god.

It could have contained the force of a powerful spirit yes, but we have no idea what the Dwemer did with the object whilst it was in their possession. I'm annoyed by their lack of respect for posterity. I can't ignore the possibility and if I were able, I would investigate.

4. The Elder Scrolls are impossible to explain, however. Try to explain them and... well, Septimus. And when you say magic is a handy catch-all, then what is magic? Is magic simply how you would explain what you cannot explain?

He could have had a preexisting condition and exposure to the scrolls simply pushed him to the breaking point. Magic is merely another force in a universe, one that can defy other parts of it. That is how I view it.

Only the sun isn't in the sky. Well, not as we know it. It's not a star made of gas, it's a giant gap in the universe from which magic, and thus life, flows into the world. The planet rotates, but as it isn't in orbit with anything, it has no reason to. And I offer my counter. Rather than assuming everything is the same until proven otherwise, I state that everything is different until proven otherwise. As a work of fictional fantasy crafted by people of the real world, it must have some sets of familiarity, but if it did not it would be unrecognizable, and people couldn't empathize with the characters or have emotion/understanding.

That's what the people of Mundus think or at least most of them do. But they're not right. We thought the world was flat once, we were wrong. We thought the sun revolved around the Earth once. We were wrong. What you describe would change the world radically, it would be utterly unrecognizable. You can't make one thing with suger and spice and then make almost the same exact thing with a human heart and the skin of a dog. It doesn't work that way. As for the meta part of that post, a lot of this up to player to determine. Probably part of the reason they made everything contradictory.

However, as a work of fictional fantasy, you cannot assume that things will be as they are in the real world. Instead, you must assume that they are not until the writings or what you view in that world prove otherwise. If you're told you're on Earth, that's one thing. But if you're told you're in another world where there's magic and gods and it's not Earth, everything changes. You have to assume so until otherwise. My base assumption with a fantasy setting like that is flat world, sun is magic sky hole or whatever. But that's because some of my first Fantasy books were the Chronicles of Narnia, the greatest fantasy kitchen sink ever made.

Except they provide the possibility of other explanations. And the world behaves in much the same way, the Sun rises and sets, wind blows and weather seems to conform to the norm for the most part. My base assumption with any world, be it fantasy or otherwise, is always in line with Occam's Razor.

6. Look up the word CHIM. To put it simply, the entire world is just the figment of an all powerful beings imagination and you are actually a fragment of nothing. However, by fully accepting that fact, you become nothing, because you have conceived what you cannot conceive. However, if you do manage to conceive that you are nothing, and in fictional world, but still manage to say that "I am a person", then you gain the ability to change the world. To put it really simply, it's how the Devs explain the ' button opening the console. Supposedly, Vivec and Tiber Septim both achieved such status. Supposedly.

Looked it up. Got nothing. But based on what you described, even if it is mentioned in a lore book, it's just claim like any other, one that has yet to be tested via the scientific method.

2. My Social Studies teacher had a whole list of books from the Southern viewpoint for the Civil War. But if you ask your average American, they'll say the South was a bunch of evil, racist slave owners. Because that's what they learned from the actual textbooks, and not the teachers showing other things.

Personally, I think the majority of the South was simply misguided-but let's not drag a Civil War debate into this.

As far as Nord freedom - it's Skyrim. It's their home. They have every right to have freedom in their own homeland. The others who come there are living under Nord protection, in Nord occupied land. They have to adapt, or be the Dragonborn and the best soldier in the Stormcloak army. Those are their choices.

Just because someone in my village and they're from another land does not give me the right to throw them into a slum or demand they accept my ways or be thrown into a slum. It's common decency.

3. I'd take a government that grants me the freedom to worship whoever I choose and protects my family from being executed by a bunch of pointy-eared, Simpson-skinned, hate-mongering, genocide-planning elves. But that's just me.

Personally, I'd take the government that isn't run by someone who might/might not be an asset of those Elves who downright said that his death would hurt their cause.

4. Then, since you love the Argonians so much, how many do you think were killed in Black Marsh during attacks? I'd reckon a lot. Though what you're saying is pretty racist.

The second someone tries to own another sentient being, they lose the right to exist. Edited July 29, 2012 by Black Six

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Of course. It's been somewhat more entertaining than my alternatives for the day, so I won't complain.1. See, though, everything in the World says that it will happen, and that it has happened. We know that Jagar Tharn sundered the Staff, because it happened, and led to the Empire being badly weakened. Which, as is fitting for the first Elder Scrolls game, the beginning of everything bad that happened. Before Tharn came around, the eight towers were still standing. Reality was perfectly secure.2. Mehrunes Razor, all possibilities can and are and are not real. Because it's a fantasy setting. Oh, and for your proof, I would go with whatever the Devs say. And don't trust only what's in-game - a good deal, nay, near 90% of what we're talking about falls outside the bounds that they bring up with in-game books. You need to read the weird, dev made stuff. Check the Imperial Library for that kind of information. Most of my arguments are made based on what is stated by them, under the idea that all things must be accepted as true and not true, instead of accepting the most simple explanation as a certain truth.3a. Unsettling, but most certainly untrue. The presence of Dwemer Specters in the Dwemer Ruins of Morrowind, the ash piles amongst the ruins under Mournhold, and the fact that one of those spirits was still able to communicate, indicate something more... strange.3b. No, we don't. All we know is that they were able to create tools that could extract power from the artifact... or destroy it. And, more importantly, create a tool that allowed them to be used without you going ka-blam. Oh, and if you were investigating, you'd thus be in the Elder Scrolls universe. And you're competing against mages who have devoted their entire life, hundreds of the years in the case of some elves, to learning about the Dwemer. And they still know almost nothing about their disappearance. And I don't know how smart you are, but I can assume that they're probably a lot smarter than both of us. Unless we got our hands on some Fortify Intelligence potions.4. So you consider magic a catch-all that explains anything that bends other law of reality? But did you not say earlier that magic is just another law? If one law contradicts all other laws, does that not make it the strongest law - the only law, really, with all others being how things work unless they don't work that way.5a. Of course the stuff is put there for the player determine, to make it feel like a real world. If people want to adventure through Skyrim as though it were just a hidden area of Scandinavia, they could go ahead and do so.As for them being wrong - but they're not. They are right. Everything they see and know is based around certain facts. Facts like when that nice kid Martin Septim snapped open the most powerful necklace on the planet, a dragon made of pure energy came and banished a 200 foot tall demon, and then turned into a statue, and portals that other demons came through started closing.The fact that they can, on certain days, communicate with said Demon or other powerful cosmic entities, and the fact that they can travel to these realms beyond what they know, shows proof.However, look at it this way. Pretend that the real world that we live in doesn't exist. We're on Mundus. Tell me what proof, then, we have that the sun is a gas ball? What makes more logical sense, that gases in the sky cause light, or that it's a hole in reality that magic bleeds out of. Considering you can jump through a portal to Sovngarde and follow a giant black dragon into the realm that lies beyond that hole, and meet with the souls of the dead, I'm gonna say... hole. Definitely hole.5b. Then we're at somewhat of a bad spot. The idea that everything is as close to the real world as it can be completely contradicts with the idea of a fantasy story, and makes the debate somewhat harder to move either way.6. Try ' CHIM Elder Scrolls' or something like that, then. And use Google. Everything else sucks. Anyways - that's the problem. You cannot test CHIM. In fact, the idea itself means that by testing it and trying to disprove it, you're willing to accept it's not true, and that the world is a real place and not an imagination. The fact you wish to test it means that you cannot comprehend it, just be default, and you are thus just another little fragment to the dream that is the Elder Scrolls universe.====2. Agreed. I had that debate last year. It was a lot louder than this one, but that's because the smart people on both sides had the dumb people shouting stuff at them to make it more exciting.3. Ulfrics death only hurts the Thalmor cause because of the Stormcloak Rebellion. The moment that Ulfric wins the war by executing Tullius and reuniting Skyrim, the war is over. Skyrim is no longer being weakened. It doesn't matter if Ulfric is alive or not - as long as somebody is leading a rebellion and Skyrim is in civil war, and Skyrim is weaker, everything is going according to plan. It's not Ulfric who is an asset, it's the war that's an asset. The fact that only Ulfric can lead a rebellion is all that matters. Once the rebellion wins...Simply put - the War is in the Thalmors best interests, Ulfric being alive made the War go longer, Ulfric has to live. Ulfric wins the war, Skyrim has a strong leader. Now Ulfrics death is in their interests.You really take that Dossier too seriously. 4. I could have a field day with this one, but it goes beyond BZPower restrictions. Needless to say, my beliefs are best summarized as "I wouldn't keep them, but if you criticize a man for hindering another mans rights, are you not also denying a man his right to actions?"-Toa Levacius Zehvor :Flagusa;

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. See, though, everything in the World says that it will happen, and that it has happened. We know that Jagar Tharn sundered the Staff, because it happened, and led to the Empire being badly weakened. Which, as is fitting for the first Elder Scrolls game, the beginning of everything bad that happened. Before Tharn came around, the eight towers were still standing. Reality was perfectly secure.

The Scrolls could be self editing. "Whoops. That just happened. Better change this and this and...." The wiki article does say it's not absolute and as I recall, there were some rather nasty wars taking place before Tharn. This is just another part of the cycle of history, ups and downs that due the nature of Mundus and magic tend to have far reaching effects that we would not see in our world. It's evident the Dragonborn are part of some enchantment weaved by the Dragon-Spirit Akatosh, their fall or even them being weakened would have the extreme effects we've seen.

2. Mehrunes Razor, all possibilities can and are and are not real. Because it's a fantasy setting. Oh, and for your proof, I would go with whatever the Devs say. And don't trust only what's in-game - a good deal, nay, near 90% of what we're talking about falls outside the bounds that they bring up with in-game books. You need to read the weird, dev made stuff. Check the Imperial Library for that kind of information. Most of my arguments are made based on what is stated by them, under the idea that all things must be accepted as true and not true, instead of accepting the most simple explanation as a certain truth.

I'm leery of trusting things that weren't mentioned in ingame books or in official novels, they could easily be written off as a joke later on. Occam's razor hasn't let me down yet, so I see no reason to abandon it now.EDIT: Did some research. It's all semi-official at best. Part of some sort of private roleplay. Bethsoft has issued no statements on it, so it's probably not even semi-official.

3a. Unsettling, but most certainly untrue. The presence of Dwemer Specters in the Dwemer Ruins of Morrowind, the ash piles amongst the ruins under Mournhold, and the fact that one of those spirits was still able to communicate, indicate something more... strange.

Indeed. I just stumbled onto that spirit wondering the wiki. Hm, I'm very annoyed with the Dwemer now. What kind of scientists are you?! Posterity man! Posterity!

3b. No, we don't. All we know is that they were able to create tools that could extract power from the artifact... or destroy it. And, more importantly, create a tool that allowed them to be used without you going ka-blam. Oh, and if you were investigating, you'd thus be in the Elder Scrolls universe. And you're competing against mages who have devoted their entire life, hundreds of the years in the case of some elves, to learning about the Dwemer. And they still know almost nothing about their disappearance. And I don't know how smart you are, but I can assume that they're probably a lot smarter than both of us. Unless we got our hands on some Fortify Intelligence potions.

If I was in the Elder Scrolls universe, I would be a Vampire or Lich by now. Once the tyranny of death no longer looms over me, I can devote as much time as I'd like to solving that puzzle. I'm not saying I'll figure it out within four centuries, but things will tend to add up. Granted, there's also a chance that during the course of my experiments and dungeon delving that I'll go the way of the Dwemer. Whatever they poked their hands into was big. Being a dedicated empiricist, I'm obligated to poke it as well. With a long stick preferably.

4. So you consider magic a catch-all that explains anything that bends other law of reality? But did you not say earlier that magic is just another law? If one law contradicts all other laws, does that not make it the strongest law - the only law, really, with all others being how things work unless they don't work that way.

I consider it something that modifies reality, but the rest of reality can account for it. You might be able to turn off gravity for yourself or a castle for awhile. But gravity will eventually reassert itself once the magical energy runs dry. Then the other laws return in force and the whole things comes down. The other laws are not by products of magic, they stand on their own. Without a way to conduct tests, I can only speculate on how this works, but Occam's razor is a useful tool for determining the basics.

5a. Of course the stuff is put there for the player determine, to make it feel like a real world. If people want to adventure through Skyrim as though it were just a hidden area of Scandinavia, they could go ahead and do so.

Indeed. Though that would stretch things. We're basically rehashing the debate the Aeylids and Dwemer had.

As for them being wrong - but they're not. They are right. Everything they see and know is based around certain facts. Facts like when that nice kid Martin Septim snapped open the most powerful necklace on the planet, a dragon made of pure energy came and banished a 200 foot tall demon, and then turned into a statue, and portals that other demons came through started closing.

A side-effect of a powerful Spirits enhancement. Nothing more. Two ascended beings clashed, it's only natural people, beyond a few dedicated scholars of the Old Ways, would think them gods. The Sun behaves like the orbital body that we know and love. Occam's razor suggests it is of the same type.

The fact that they can, on certain days, communicate with said Demon or other powerful cosmic entities, and the fact that they can travel to these realms beyond what they know, shows proof.

Against, likely an effect of magic acting on the universe and the energy of Greater Spirits. Doesn't change the fact of gravity or the behavior of the sun. It merely proves the existence of powerful beings, something I never denied.

However, look at it this way. Pretend that the real world that we live in doesn't exist. We're on Mundus. Tell me what proof, then, we have that the sun is a gas ball? What makes more logical sense, that gases in the sky cause light, or that it's a hole in reality that magic bleeds out of. Considering you can jump through a portal to Sovngarde and follow a giant black dragon into the realm that lies beyond that hole, and meet with the souls of the dead, I'm gonna say... hole. Definitely hole.

Oh. We don't know it's a gas ball, but once one accepts the Greater Spirit/Lesser Spirit approach of the old ways, one can begin to look at alternate theories regarding the big ball in the sky. They won't get it right for some time, but they'll get closer and closer...It would, roughly, be as it happened in our world historically. If one recognizes creation myths for what they are, and spirits for what they are, then one can begin to uncover the true evidence that lays about in Mundus.

5b. Then we're at somewhat of a bad spot. The idea that everything is as close to the real world as it can be completely contradicts with the idea of a fantasy story, and makes the debate somewhat harder to move either way.

Hm. Indeed. I prefer realistic fantasy, you prefer high fantasy. Do you wish to continue? Maybe we could make this interesting by limiting ourselves in some manner?

6. Try ' CHIM Elder Scrolls' or something like that, then. And use Google. Everything else sucks. Anyways - that's the problem. You cannot test CHIM. In fact, the idea itself means that by testing it and trying to disprove it, you're willing to accept it's not true, and that the world is a real place and not an imagination. The fact you wish to test it means that you cannot comprehend it, just be default, and you are thus just another little fragment to the dream that is the Elder Scrolls universe.

Interesting, if it cannot be tested however, it cannot be proven to exist. Or not exist. Rendering the point rather moot in regards to this debate.

3. Ulfrics death only hurts the Thalmor cause because of the Stormcloak Rebellion. The moment that Ulfric wins the war by executing Tullius and reuniting Skyrim, the war is over. Skyrim is no longer being weakened. It doesn't matter if Ulfric is alive or not - as long as somebody is leading a rebellion and Skyrim is in civil war, and Skyrim is weaker, everything is going according to plan. It's not Ulfric who is an asset, it's the war that's an asset. The fact that only Ulfric can lead a rebellion is all that matters. Once the rebellion wins...

I'll concede that much I suppose. Though I do have moral objections to Ulfric's methods, hence why I side against him.

4. I could have a field day with this one, but it goes beyond BZPower restrictions. Needless to say, my beliefs are best summarized as "I wouldn't keep them, but if you criticize a man for hindering another mans rights, are you not also denying a man his right to actions?"

It was mostly a joke anyhow. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Archer Vonn]

You guys need some air

[Wotz]

Are we still talking about Skyrim politics? Because if we are, I'd just like to throw out there that I'm a Stormcloak mainly because the Imperials tried to execute me at the start of the game. That led me to not like them, and then it turns out they suppressed people's religious beliefs and I was like 'THAT'S IT TIME TO DIE'.Unfortunately I didn't realise that they were actually forced to sign the treaty until after I'd cut off General Tullius' head, taken all his clothes off and tossed his mutilated form on to a Fire Rune.Now I just use the forts the Stormcloaks took during the war to fuel my Werewolf rampages.

[Mare Tranquillitatis]

Are we still talking about Skyrim politics? Because if we are, I'd just like to throw out there that I'm a Stormcloak mainly because the Imperials tried to execute me at the start of the game. That led me to not like them, and then it turns out they suppressed people's religious beliefs and I was like 'THAT'S IT TIME TO DIE'.

Same here.The fact is, both sides have good and bad points. They're both right, at the same time.EDIT: Actually, I've found how to make beast form to be useful. If you've forgot the Stone of Barenziah in the Thalmor Embassy, beast form is the easiest way to get back there. Edited July 29, 2012 by Emile A239

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

@ Basilisk;1. There were some nasty wars, but the Imperial Simulacrum was what first led to the deterioration of the 3rd Empire, after Tharn imprisoned the Emperor in a pocket of Oblivion. And you say part of the a cycle of history, and that history is always changing, but there are obviously some things that are happening no matter what. The fact that things outside of the scrolls, and the premonitions of Uriel Septim VII, all show that there's some type of fate that the universe is forced to follow. Also, to say the Elder Scrolls are some part of what Akatosh does conflicts with the fact that Akatosh as no control over them - he is subject to them, not the other way around. So, if the Scrolls are what's guiding reality, but nothing is acting on them, then they must be powering themselves. But that's essentially impossible.2. Some of the stuff is, but most of the stuff by Michael Kirkbride is stuff that's accepted into the lore. One thing I've seen is that to actually understand the Elder Scrolls lore, you can't just go off of the word canon, it has to be lore. On all of the official Bethesda forums, his stuff is always kept in official sections instead of just fan fiction when posted, and is thus part of official ES lore.Of course, since you're unwilling to accept even the official Elder Scrolls lore because what makes sense to you, a person from another reality entirely, must be what's considered true, rather than what is the most obvious.3a. The type who put flaming oil on ancient artifacts, apparently.3b. You would think that. But you'd be wrong. Most people met by Vampires are enslaved as cattle or killed, not turned into Vampires. Lichdom involves no end to complex rituals and knowing the right people, so it's going to be harder. Plus you need to be an incredibly powerful mage. The immediate assumption you'd be a powerful mage amuses me. 4. Only it's completely capable of ignoring all other laws. It is, by default, not a true law but everything that is random. It's not static, it's change. The presence of change being there means that everything can be changed, and since everything can be changed, one must assume it has been changed. If everything has been changed, then the Occams Razor is rendered invalid since you cannot associate something where everything is changed with a world where some things cannot be and others are not.5a1 - People are weird.5a2 - Again, you can't look at things from an outside perspective, you have to look at things from an inside perspective. If you took a telescope to Nirn powerful enough to see a star, you wouldn't see a star, you would see a gap into scape bleeding magic. Wait... no, hold on. They did. A Dwemer Orrery can read the night sky and trace the stars, the sun, and everything else. And for the record, the universe doesn't behave as you know and love. While it's harder to explain to people who have only played Skyrim just because they got rid of it in Skyrim so people didn't have to think at character creation, the month of your birth is actually a permanent effect on you - read The Firmament for that. That alone suggests that the sky behaves differently. The stars, simply smaller holes created by lesser spirits, bleeding magic onto Aethrius and changing fate. You can easily disprove astrological signs in the real world, but you really can't disprove it when a lady kisses you and you fall flat on your back going "What did I do wrong?"5a3 - Again, the fact that things like gravity are completely ignored by these beings, who reside within their own realms where they can bend every aspect of the universe to their sometimes cheese related whims, proves that things that are always true are no longer always true, and thus sometimes wrong, and if some things are wrong, anything and everything can be wrong.5a4 - We only know the suns a gas ball because of giant telescopes. The Dwemer have giant telescopes. Giant telescopes amplified by magic. And they see... a magical hole in space. The fact that the Dwemer were able to determine the sky-charts, and the ways that they understood reality, along with what mages after then can see, shows that the sky itself is not the same as the one in the real world, Occams Razor to Oblivion. The truth of Mundus is already known, whether you choose to believe it or not determines how far you're willing to separate yourself from reality for the sake of fantasy.5b. We can continue, but it's never going to get anywhere. Most of the conversations you see on other forums are between two people who both believe what I'm saying arguing about other things based on the Elder Scrolls cosmology. But those conversations are impossible to go off of if you try to make Nirn into a planet that's exactly the same as Earth. Since there's no way to prove anything one way or another, it's just two people throwing rocks at a plexiglass house and trying to see who breaks it first.6. Which means you can never know it, because you wish to understand it like any other science. Just like the Scrolls themselves, some things cannot be feasibly explained in a fantasy setting.____+++____3. Methods or no methods, he's still the best choice to need an army of Nords, and the only person who's willing to ensure that humanity continues worshiping Talos. In the end, though, he is only a mortal, and his eventual heir will need to replace him as he replaced his father. One who may prove even better. It doesn't matter - all that does matter is that Talos continues.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Black Six]

Please do not link to sites with forums. Note that many wiki these days have forums and other discussion areas.

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. There were some nasty wars, but the Imperial Simulacrum was what first led to the deterioration of the 3rd Empire, after Tharn imprisoned the Emperor in a pocket of Oblivion. And you say part of the a cycle of history, and that history is always changing, but there are obviously some things that are happening no matter what. The fact that things outside of the scrolls, and the premonitions of Uriel Septim VII, all show that there's some type of fate that the universe is forced to follow. Also, to say the Elder Scrolls are some part of what Akatosh does conflicts with the fact that Akatosh as no control over them - he is subject to them, not the other way around. So, if the Scrolls are what's guiding reality, but nothing is acting on them, then they must be powering themselves. But that's essentially impossible.

Empires have fallen before and I'm certain they are falling just as violently as this empire. The Elder Scrolls are merely advanced probability machines, likely harnessing magic to do it. They could also be self-editing, recalculating based on recent events and the how they effect other events. I find the notion of fate insulting myself, so that'll color my viewpoint a bit. Septim, if he could truly see the future, could have saved his empire. But because the notion of fate had been drilled into him, he didn't act to save himself. Self-fufilling prophecy. A brutal one at that.

2. Some of the stuff is, but most of the stuff by Michael Kirkbride is stuff that's accepted into the lore. One thing I've seen is that to actually understand the Elder Scrolls lore, you can't just go off of the word canon, it has to be lore. On all of the official Bethesda forums, his stuff is always kept in official sections instead of just fan fiction when posted, and is thus part of official ES lore.

Then why the disclaimer at the start of most articles? It wouldn't be there if it wasn't needed. Beyond that, the whole thing sounds like a power trip. Seriously? Destroying Azura? Really? When I get Morrowind, I'm totally offing Vivec.

Of course, since you're unwilling to accept even the official Elder Scrolls lore because what makes sense to you, a person from another reality entirely, must be what's considered true, rather than what is the most obvious.

It's not official. Otherwise there would be no need for the disclaimers.

3b. You would think that. But you'd be wrong. Most people met by Vampires are enslaved as cattle or killed, not turned into Vampires. Lichdom involves no end to complex rituals and knowing the right people, so it's going to be harder. Plus you need to be an incredibly powerful mage. The immediate assumption you'd be a powerful mage amuses me.

...There would be some training involved first. Infection, invisibility spell followed by lots of running. Lots of running. It's a risky plan, but the benefits outweigh the risks. The assumption is I'm not good with a sword, but I rather like reading and intellectual challenges. I can't speculate with complete confidence, but I would likely be a scholar of some sort. You also underestimate that lengths I will go to to beat death. I'm going to have my brain frozen if the singularity doesn't hit in my life time. :PBut this is going to far into speculation. Depends on a lot of unknown factors.

4. Only it's completely capable of ignoring all other laws. It is, by default, not a true law but everything that is random. It's not static, it's change. The presence of change being there means that everything can be changed, and since everything can be changed, one must assume it has been changed. If everything has been changed, then the Occams Razor is rendered invalid since you cannot associate something where everything is changed with a world where some things cannot be and others are not.

Wrong. Magic and gravity can coexist, it does actually. Magic can merely resist other forces but the other forces reassert themselves. Some things have changed, but some changes does not mean everything has changed. The world is an in a state we can recognized, the sun provides heat, gravity works, therefore the razor still applies because the world is like our own and the world you have described wouldn't even resemble ours.

5a1 - People are weird.

And in the case of the Dwemer, dead,

5a2 - Again, you can't look at things from an outside perspective, you have to look at things from an inside perspective. If you took a telescope to Nirn powerful enough to see a star, you wouldn't see a star, you would see a gap into scape bleeding magic. Wait... no, hold on. They did. A Dwemer Orrery can read the night sky and trace the stars, the sun, and everything else. And for the record, the universe doesn't behave as you know and love. While it's harder to explain to people who have only played Skyrim just because they got rid of it in Skyrim so people didn't have to think at character creation, the month of your birth is actually a permanent effect on you - read The Firmament for that. That alone suggests that the sky behaves differently. The stars, simply smaller holes created by lesser spirits, bleeding magic onto Aethrius and changing fate. You can easily disprove astrological signs in the real world, but you really can't disprove it when a lady kisses you and you fall flat on your back going "What did I do wrong?"

We don't know what the Dwemer saw, and regardless, the sun looks like ours. Meaning that if they went in with a preexisting notion of what it is, they'd see what they wanted to see. Bad science, but what can you expect from the Mages Guild? The same guild who banned a type of magic because it's "icky". Mages aren't scientists. The Orrery is likely just a magical telescope likely feeding off of the magic that exists in the skies. If it exists on Mundus as an energy to be tapped into, then it's only logical to assume it exists in other places. Magical effects scarcely disprove the existence of stars as we know. There is always another explanation, which is normally simpler and thus, correct. The Dwemer probably saw the stars for what they were, but again, their records have been lost. And they didn't respect posterity.Come to think of it, magic coming from the skies...Hm. Maybe the realms of Oblivion aren't other dimensions, merely other planets high in magic...No. I don't think that'll work. Some of them are radically different from the baseline universe....But then again, if the Ascended Mortals command them...I'll get back to you on that part. Research time!

5a3 - Again, the fact that things like gravity are completely ignored by these beings, who reside within their own realms where they can bend every aspect of the universe to their sometimes cheese related whims, proves that things that are always true are no longer always true, and thus sometimes wrong, and if some things are wrong, anything and everything can be wrong.

No. It merely proves these beings have vast reserves of magic and that enables them to resist the laws of the universe for longer then a moral can. Change in the case of Mundus, does not beget change. Because on part of the Theory of Everything has changed, does not mean the whole theory needs to be thrown out.

5a4 - We only know the suns a gas ball because of giant telescopes. The Dwemer have giant telescopes. Giant telescopes amplified by magic. And they see... a magical hole in space. The fact that the Dwemer were able to determine the sky-charts, and the ways that they understood reality, along with what mages after then can see, shows that the sky itself is not the same as the one in the real world, Occams Razor to Oblivion. The truth of Mundus is already known, whether you choose to believe it or not determines how far you're willing to separate yourself from reality for the sake of fantasy.

Dwemer records have been lost, there is nothing definitive there. The various Mages groups (Synod, Colleges...) will for the most part, bow to preexisting ideas on the matter. This world has not had it's intellectual revolution yet. I'm certain that if one applied the scientific method, then one could get something done. There is nothing to prove the Sun is not merely a ball of gas, that Star-magic is not merely magic acting as it wont, therefore, Occams razor dictates that the Sun is still a ball of gas.For the record, I do only play/read realistic fantasy. Take that as you will.

5b. We can continue, but it's never going to get anywhere. Most of the conversations you see on other forums are between two people who both believe what I'm saying arguing about other things based on the Elder Scrolls cosmology. But those conversations are impossible to go off of if you try to make Nirn into a planet that's exactly the same as Earth. Since there's no way to prove anything one way or another, it's just two people throwing rocks at a plexiglass house and trying to see who breaks it first.

I'm inclined to agree. But it's fun....Bring up the catapults!

6. Which means you can never know it, because you wish to understand it like any other science. Just like the Scrolls themselves, some things cannot be feasibly explained in a fantasy setting.

Then we defer to Occam's razor for an explanation. At least, I do. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to force you to see things my way, I'm just in this for the fun of it. I play the game from the perspective that makes it fun for me, you play it from the perspective that makes it fun for you.

3. Methods or no methods, he's still the best choice to need an army of Nords, and the only person who's willing to ensure that humanity continues worshiping Talos. In the end, though, he is only a mortal, and his eventual heir will need to replace him as he replaced his father. One who may prove even better. It doesn't matter - all that does matter is that Talos continues.

The Empire is clearly biding it's time, he may be a good choice to lead the Nords, but one must consider the rest of Mundus. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. You can't fight fate. I suggest you look at the stuff in TES III and IV. In the third game, he arranged to send the future Nerevarine to Morrowind and have him freed from his imprisonment and act as a Blades agent (the Blades in Morrowind were much cooler). He knew that, no matter what, the Nerevarine would defeat Dagoth Ur. If you don't believe in prophecy and the like, then your character even has the option of telling Dagoth Ur "I'm not the Nerevarine - I'm just the guy who's going to kill you", and that's the one that actually gets the most respect from him before the battle begins. It didn't really matter if he was or not, though - all that mattered was the prophecy was fulfilled. Later, in Oblivion, Uriel saw his death, and knew that trying to fight his fate would be fruitless. So, as the Blades fight off the Mythic Dawn, he turns and... well, play the blasted game. It's like 20$ on Steam without having a discount.2a+2b. What are you talking about? It's not that amazing that somebody can destroy a Daedra's corporeal form. Even the Daedric Princes can be banished back to Oblivion. At the end of Shivering Isles, your character, albeit with some amount of Sheogorath's power, was able to banish Jygallag. At the end of Battlespire, your character uses the Spear of Bitter Mercy to banish Mehrunes Dagon himself from the Battlespire and keep him from entering Tamriel. Vivec was one of the oldest beings on Tamriel, and still possessed a fragment of the powers of the Heart of Lorkahn. Because of the fact that people still had faith in him as a god, it was only strengthened - I don't consider it nearly as great a feat as you're suggesting. And for the record, the Unofficial Lore isn't considered non-canon until proven, it's canon until proven otherwise by the game.

"Many doubt the validity of Unofficial Lore, while many loremasters do not distinguish between it and texts found in-game. It is useful in understanding many lore topics—in some cases it is integral to our knowledge of a particular area. However, it may represent the viewpoint of only one writer, as material published individually has not necessarily passed muster with the group of people who currently have creative control over the series. This may lead to a more personal understanding of lore that does not necessarily correlate with the series as it continues."

And frankly, since Kirkbride was a writer for the story in-game with Morrowind but not in Oblivion and Skyrim, then I'm inclined to like him and desire him rejoining the story writing force. If TES6 ends up involving the battle agains the Thalmor going for domination of the universe, then he probably will be.3. As much as I would love to be the heavy armor wearing, sword n' board using noble warrior, that wouldn't be happening. I'd probably dabble a bit in magic, but I'd be doing cons and the like. And get killed by a dragon. I don't much care about eternal life because I get bored easily. If I was immortal, I'd end up like Xykon, and that would end well for nobody. So I'm content doing as much as I can with what life I've been provided and hope that one day my descendants channel my soul back to the mortal realm and fuse it with their own to obtain limitless power and conquer you pathetic humans.4. The world resembles ours, but that doesn't mean it is ours. Vegetarian Bacon looks like bacon and sometimes tastes similar to bacon, but it isn't bacon. Our sun looks a lot light a gleaming hole in the sky, but it's not. It's a giant ball of gas. Their sun looks like a giant ball of gas, but it's really a huge hole in the sky. Saying that something must be something because it resembles something is among the worst things you can say.5a2. You silly fool. The planes of Oblivion aren't the planets, they're the void. The blackness in the night sky is Oblivion. The planets in the sky are the only way that the mortal mind can conceive the other infinite planes that are controlled by the Aedra. The moons, Masser and Secunda (or, rather, Jone and Jode), are believed to be guardian spirits of Nirn by some, and by others, the remaining pieces of Lorkahns mutilated form. The stars are the holes through Oblivion into Aethrius created by lesser immortals fleeing, while Magnus himself ripped out the hole that is the sun. In any case, the Dwemer Orrery is a perfect way to see the sky above that allows the sky to be at least described properly. And about Dwemer records - the Dwemer built their things to last. They wouldn't have lost information like that if it existed. Which it doesn't because the sky is nothing at all like the real world sky.5a3. But you're ignoring my point. Again - we know for a fact some things cannot be changed. However, the moment that a force is introduced that can change them, it means that they are no longer incapable of being changed. And if one thing can be different, anything can be. Whenever you say that everything must be as much like the real world as you can, you're showing the amount of (do not take this as a personal insult) ignorance as the ancient people did when denying that the Earth revolved around the sun. If tomorrow they suddenly discovered all of that was wrong, and could scientifically prove that the sun wasn't a gas ball becuase Voyager crashed into the far limits of a dyson sphere, and all sorts of other weird stuff started happening, what would you have to say then? What would become of Occams razor?5a4. Have you read any books by Fred Saberhagen? In any case - what are you talking about? Saying that something is because you can't disprove it is the exact opposite of the scientific method! In order to make a hypothesis, it has to be capable of being tested. Since you can't test what the sun is, you can't make a hypothesis and declare it as true. All that is known is what is described to mortals by the histories written by the elves at the beginning of time, when the gods still walked Mundus, and Daedric Princes were fream to roam the world and sit around chatting with mortals. Since that's the only thing that is known to be true, it is the most likely scenario. Nobody ever said the sun is a gas ball, and only one dork mage who wanted to be contrary ever suggested the idea of lesser and greater spirits - and I bet any Dremora with half a mind would have slapped his dumb face when he was done. Mostly for being called lesser by a mortal. Your entire point here is invalid.5b. Wait, we're still back in the middle ages? Boys, get the trebuchet and put the warhead away.6. Force each other to see things... who do you think we are, College professors and liberal arts majors?~~~3. The Empire is weak. Let them fight the Aldmeri Dominion when the war begins. I'm sure a Nord+Redguard alliance could be made. Wait. Make that Nord+Redguard+Dragon alliance. And convincing Ulfric to enlist Dunmer help might be hard, but I'm sure having the Champion of Azura on your side makes that a lot easier - getting House Redoran survivors to help against the Dominion would be easy. And all would be helping as independent states, rather than united by a weak (or, rather, assassinated) emperor.And if you care about Mundus - again, the worship of Talos must continue.~~~Apologies, B6! We won't do it again.-Toa Levacius Zehvor Edited July 29, 2012 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. You can't fight fate. I suggest you look at the stuff in TES III and IV. In the third game, he arranged to send the future Nerevarine to Morrowind and have him freed from his imprisonment and act as a Blades agent (the Blades in Morrowind were much cooler). He knew that, no matter what, the Nerevarine would defeat Dagoth Ur. If you don't believe in prophecy and the like, then your character even has the option of telling Dagoth Ur "I'm not the Nerevarine - I'm just the guy who's going to kill you", and that's the one that actually gets the most respect from him before the battle begins. It didn't really matter if he was or not, though - all that mattered was the prophecy was fulfilled. Later, in Oblivion, Uriel saw his death, and knew that trying to fight his fate would be fruitless. So, as the Blades fight off the Mythic Dawn, he turns and... well, play the blasted game. It's like 20$ on Steam without having a discount.

There is not one shred of evidence for this. He believed these things to be certain, but that does not make them true. I'm getting Morrowind because I have the option to think of the prophecy as nonsense, which I believe it is. That and it seems like a good game. He could have easily averted his death if he had the forewarning he seems to have had. But the fact he brought up with "faith in fate" turned the whole thing into a self-fulfilling prophecy.I've played Oblivion, own it in fact. I take the same approach to it as I take to Skyrim.

And for the record, the Unofficial Lore isn't considered non-canon until proven, it's canon until proven otherwise by the game.

Maybe to you. But there is no official policy on the matter. I take a much more skeptical approach to it. Granted, I'm biased because even considering CHIM forces me to turn off my brain.

"Many doubt the validity of Unofficial Lore, while many loremasters do not distinguish between it and texts found in-game. It is useful in understanding many lore topics—in some cases it is integral to our knowledge of a particular area. However, it may represent the viewpoint of only one writer, as material published individually has not necessarily passed muster with the group of people who currently have creative control over the series. This may lead to a more personal understanding of lore that does not necessarily correlate with the series as it continues."

The viewpoint of one writer, when he has not been put through the creative control, is utterly invalid. Merely because it could be true, does not mean it is. In the meanwhile Occam's Razor eliminates it. Also, the bolded word is key to the entire argument. It's unofficial, not even canon.

And frankly, since Kirkbride was a writer for the story in-game with Morrowind but not in Oblivion and Skyrim, then I'm inclined to like him and desire him rejoining the story writing force. If TES6 ends up involving the battle agains the Thalmor going for domination of the universe, then he probably will be.

I differ with you there. I hope he doesn't reenter the series. The concept of CHIM, if proven true, would ruin the game for me if I was unable to come up with rational explanation for it.

3. As much as I would love to be the heavy armor wearing, sword n' board using noble warrior, that wouldn't be happening. I'd probably dabble a bit in magic, but I'd be doing cons and the like. And get killed by a dragon. I don't much care about eternal life because I get bored easily. If I was immortal, I'd end up like Xykon, and that would end well for nobody. So I'm content doing as much as I can with what life I've been provided and hope that one day my descendants channel my soul back to the mortal realm and fuse it with their own to obtain limitless power and conquer you pathetic humans.

Mm. I seek Immortality because I want to learn everything...and because I consider death a biological flaw. I refuse to lose my life to a flaw.

4. The world resembles ours, but that doesn't mean it is ours. Vegetarian Bacon looks like bacon and sometimes tastes similar to bacon, but it isn't bacon. Our sun looks a lot light a gleaming hole in the sky, but it's not. It's a giant ball of gas. Their sun looks like a giant ball of gas, but it's really a huge hole in the sky. Saying that something must be something because it resembles something is among the worst things you can say.

The theory of gravity requires a few things to function, things that would be lacking in the universe you describe. The Sun acts like our sun, behaves almost exactly like it. We only have creation myth nonsense contradicting it, there is no evidence for the creation myth nonsense, therefore one is forced to assume, via Occam's razor, that the simpliest explanation, it is merely universe like ours acting on slightly modified principles, it true.

5a2. You silly fool. The planes of Oblivion aren't the planets, they're the void. The blackness in the night sky is Oblivion. The planets in the sky are the only way that the mortal mind can conceive the other infinite planes that are controlled by the Aedra. The moons, Masser and Secunda (or, rather, Jone and Jode), are believed to be guardian spirits of Nirn by some, and by others, the remaining pieces of Lorkahns mutilated form. The stars are the holes through Oblivion into Aethrius created by lesser immortals fleeing, while Magnus himself ripped out the hole that is the sun. In any case, the Dwemer Orrery is a perfect way to see the sky above that allows the sky to be at least described properly. And about Dwemer records - the Dwemer built their things to last. They wouldn't have lost information like that if it existed. Which it doesn't because the sky is nothing at all like the real world sky.

....That's all creation myth nonsense. There is no spec of hard evidence for it. None. Nada. Therefore, Occam's Razor forces the assumptions I have been presenting. Just because a culture says that is so, just because I say that say, the moon is made of cheese, does not make it true.

5a3. But you're ignoring my point. Again - we know for a fact some things cannot be changed. However, the moment that a force is introduced that can change them, it means that they are no longer incapable of being changed. And if one thing can be different, anything can be. Whenever you say that everything must be as much like the real world as you can, you're showing the amount of (do not take this as a personal insult) ignorance as the ancient people did when denying that the Earth revolved around the sun. If tomorrow they suddenly discovered all of that was wrong, and could scientifically prove that the sun wasn't a gas ball becuase Voyager crashed into the far limits of a dyson sphere, and all sorts of other weird stuff started happening, what would you have to say then? What would become of Occams razor?

Merely because something can be averted for a time, does not mean the whole thing has to change. Gravity still functions, meaning the planet has a core, the Sun has a day/night cycle, meaning the planet rotates, all of these suggest it is a planet like ours. The things you suggest can't happen, or there is only a small chance of them happening. We would have detected a Dyson sphere by now, the fact that rocks come from other parts of space to threaten or planet indicate that there is no Dyson sphere. You could in theory add a Dyson sphere to every theory, but it is not needed, therefore Occam's Razor eliminates it. Say that if "X" changed then that means Y is a magical portal is not a valid way to conduct matters. Merely because something is claimed does not mean it is true, especially when the records are unreliable.

5a4. Have you read any books by Fred Saberhagen? In any case - what are you talking about? Saying that something is because you can't disprove it is the exact opposite of the scientific method! In order to make a hypothesis, it has to be capable of being tested. Since you can't test what the sun is, you can't make a hypothesis and declare it as true. All that is known is what is described to mortals by the histories written by the elves at the beginning of time, when the gods still walked Mundus, and Daedric Princes were fream to roam the world and sit around chatting with mortals. Since that's the only thing that is known to be true, it is the most likely scenario. Nobody ever said the sun is a gas ball, and only one dork mage who wanted to be contrary ever suggested the idea of lesser and greater spirits - and I bet any Dremora with half a mind would have slapped his dumb face when he was done. Mostly for being called lesser by a mortal. Your entire point here is invalid.

Occam's razor suggests it is, therefore until data arrives to contradict it, I must assume that unless observed by a reliable source that the Sun is different from the sun of our reality, it must operate on the same principle. Creation myths and religions aren't a valid source for discerning the true nature of Mundus, these are mere tools used by the Greater Spirits or neat little stories made up by their followers to explain their existence. Just because the elves say something does not mean it's true and since I have access to knowledge of how the universe works that they clearly do not, I am free to use that data in ways they do not. They are still in the "Earth Is Flat" stage of scientific development. I am not. I find the idea that the sun is a gas ball infinitely more likely then it being some strange portal. Anything else is just a clumsy and wrong attempt by the mortals to explain their universe....Also, the Old Ways are followed by the Psijic Order. You know them correct?

5b. Wait, we're still back in the middle ages? Boys, get the trebuchet and put the warhead away.

I thought it would rather fit with the theme.

6. Force each other to see things... who do you think we are, College professors and liberal arts majors?

Don't insult my intended profession.

3. The Empire is weak. Let them fight the Aldmeri Dominion when the war begins. I'm sure a Nord+Redguard alliance could be made. Wait. Make that Nord+Redguard+Dragon alliance. And convincing Ulfric to enlist Dunmer help might be hard, but I'm sure having the Champion of Azura on your side makes that a lot easier - getting House Redoran survivors to help against the Dominion would be easy. And all would be helping as independent states, rather than united by a weak (or, rather,assassinated) emperor.

Medes is anything but weak, his family managed to claim the throne and did a good job of holding off the Thalmor. Like it or not, it took skill for a dying/weakening Empire to hold off a fresh and rising power as well as it did.

And if you care about Mundus - again, the worship of Talos must continue.

Creation myth nonsense. Reality doesn't need help existing, because it is existence. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. And what if he had, hmm? What if he had just hid in the Imperial Palace behind a couple dozen guards and mages, and lived out the rest of his days. He would inevitably die with no heir, and the events would happen anyways. Suppose he told them to find Martin when he died. Then the information would become more public, and the Mythic Dawn might have dispatched him afterwards. Then there would be no hope. But because he followed fate, he was able to meet the Champion of Cyrodiil. With his help, Martin Septim was found, kept safe, and everything happene as it needed to. I remember back in Tankards you stated how you viewed pacifism as being a noble act - for me, this is a far more noble thing. To face your death with dignity and let it come.2. That's why they make looking for this stuff something not available to most players, because it hurts your brain. Frankly, I would have lots of trouble accepting that I wasn't real. I could not achieve CHIM. You can't even conceive the concept of not being real - you couldn't either. Also, one thing - canon =/= lore in the Elder Scrolls. Canon would imply you've proved it in game. Lore also includes the stuff written off the site. And you can't deny that, even though he doesn't write for Bethesda anymore, Kirkbride's work is considered lore, and not fanfiction. That means it's true. One thing that I find kind of silly is saying a game would be ruined because a concept cannot be explained. Not being able to explain things is what makes it enjoyable, because you can disconnect yourself from the real world, just for a little while.3. I consider immortality to be your memory. Being remembered is far more important than living forever. You know Highlander? At the very end, he gains limitless knowledge, and the chance to have a family, in exchange for immortality. Nothing I can think of is more fulfilling than that.4. Again, you're making statements that cannot be proven, and ignoring the scientific method. You're stating something must be true because it's what you understand, which suggests an unwillingness to open your mind to ideas outside of the realms that you know. Sometimes this also manifests a lack of creativity or, as I've seen in the conversation, and unwillingness to accept more creative ideas. Today, we have a name for this. It's the Dark Ages.5a. Occams Razor is as dull as an Iron Dagger you've used fighting a Hunger in Morrowind. This entire conversation is just demonstrating being unwilling to accept new ideas because they're harder to comprehend, which is the exact opposite of what science is - trying to find something new. Let's look at you saying "just because a culture says so". So if you were in Mundus and started telling everybody about this, you're right and they're wrong? That would be arrogance and assuming you're always right. And if you were to be proven wrong, then what? Of course, this is impossible to test due to the present lacking of any form of transport to a non-existent world. All that we know is that what's written down in books in the ES universe, and we have to trust in what that says.5b. Merely because you claim Mundus follows the laws of a real world doesn't make it true. Now you're making a double standard. On the first point, just because it resembles our world doesn't mean everything works the same. I return to my statement about bacon and not-actually-bacon. Just because something looks like something doesn't mean it is. Gravity need not work the same way. It might not even be gravity - it could be another force entirely. But it does the same thing. And for the record, I believe Nirn is a spherical planet. On the second - I never said it was true, or even logical, I just said what if. Again, you're stating how many reasons something wouldn't work instead of just opening your mind and thinking about it.5c. Of course, but I was merely making the point that they're not followed by most people because they contradict what is known. And I'm more inclined to believe historical records from the old Aldmer in the past, back when the universe was still being formed, about how it was being formed, rather than a group of monks. And even the Psijics, if I'm remembering my external lore correctly, are opposed to what the Thalmor are doing. They understand that the universe is uttering on the precipice of destruction, and they've been trying to maintain it as long as they can. Now, you actually aren't free to use the data you're talking about, because it applies to real life and not a fantasy story that isn't real life. Calling the people of said world clumsy and ignorant because they believe something different is going back to the trait of arrogance and superiority. Which is just like a member of the Thalmor with a less open mind.6. I've heart plenty of stories... military/scientist here, though. Not much for enforcing my views on others. I'm more along the lines of protecting people from forcing their views from others. Also making things blow up.^^^^^^3. Mede wasn't a bad guy. But he shouldn't have handed over the worship of Talos to the Thalmor and allowed them to kill so many innocent people. A peace treaty would have been fine - the White Gold Concordant, which allowed Thalmor Justiciars unrestrained access to the Empire, was not. As many things as he did right, he did a dozen more wrong. Especially when he attempted to give away land in Hammerfell. Telling the Redguards to surrender is about the dumbest thing you can do if you want to hold the Empire together.4. Reality as we know it is reality, but reality in the Elder Scrolls is not the same reality, as it is not real. Thus, it is subject to change in ways that reality in the real world is not. Like the fact that it's falling apart.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. And what if he had, hmm? What if he had just hid in the Imperial Palace behind a couple dozen guards and mages, and lived out the rest of his days. He would inevitably die with no heir, and the events would happen anyways. Suppose he told them to find Martin when he died. Then the information would become more public, and the Mythic Dawn might have dispatched him afterwards. Then there would be no hope. But because he followed fate, he was able to meet the Champion of Cyrodiil. With his help, Martin Septim was found, kept safe, and everything happene as it needed to. I remember back in Tankards you stated how you viewed pacifism as being a noble act - for me, this is a far more noble thing. To face your death with dignity and let it come.

Emperor: "Oh. Guards. Before I forget, someone's going to try to kill me next week. Triple the watch and I want ten Battlemages in the room with me at all times. Oh yes and deploy a legion to Kvatch...and while we're at it, send five Battlemages to guard each of sons. Oh! And before I forget, there is a fellow in the jail. Free him and bring him to me. You'll know the cell-the one with a secret passage. He'll be useful. While we at it, I've changed a few things in the tax code. The price of wheat is about go down."

2. That's why they make looking for this stuff something not available to most players, because it hurts your brain. Frankly, I would have lots of trouble accepting that I wasn't real. I could not achieve CHIM. You can't even conceive the concept of not being real - you couldn't either. Also, one thing - canon =/= lore in the Elder Scrolls. Canon would imply you've proved it in game. Lore also includes the stuff written off the site. And you can't deny that, even though he doesn't write for Bethesda anymore, Kirkbride's work is considered lore, and not fanfiction. That means it's true. One thing that I find kind of silly is saying a game would be ruined because a concept cannot be explained. Not being able to explain things is what makes it enjoyable, because you can disconnect yourself from the real world, just for a little while.

Some people consider it lore, some don't. There is no official ruling on it. CHIM ruins the point of the game-what's the point of being the Dragonborn and saving a village if, even within the context of the game, that village does not exist? I like my fiction to operate on logic, otherwise I can't suspend my disbelief and that ruins the experience.

3. I consider immortality to be your memory. Being remembered is far more important than living forever. You know Highlander? At the very end, he gains limitless knowledge, and the chance to have a family, in exchange for immortality. Nothing I can think of is more fulfilling than that.

I can think of a few things. A giant library filled with all the knowledge in the universe...immortality...but we have different standards and personal ethics. So of course we'll differ on this quite radically.

4. Again, you're making statements that cannot be proven, and ignoring the scientific method. You're stating something must be true because it's what you understand, which suggests an unwillingness to open your mind to ideas outside of the realms that you know. Sometimes this also manifests a lack of creativity or, as I've seen in the conversation, and unwillingness to accept more creative ideas. Today, we have a name for this. It's the Dark Ages.

You've done the same actually, discounted the possibility of the Heart being a soul gem, discounted the possibility of Oblivion being a series of planets. Mundus seems to operate in a similar fashion to our reality, the machinery has to operate in a similar fashion as well. Cars have different engines that drive them, but they all do the same thing. Nirn's engine just has a few different components. It's the simplest explanation and until evidence comes to the fore disproving it, I rely on Occam's Razor. Merely because I've come to a different conclusion then you does not mean I'm close minded.

5a. Occams Razor is as dull as an Iron Dagger you've used fighting a Hunger in Morrowind. This entire conversation is just demonstrating being unwilling to accept new ideas because they're harder to comprehend, which is the exact opposite of what science is - trying to find something new. Let's look at you saying "just because a culture says so". So if you were in Mundus and started telling everybody about this, you're right and they're wrong? That would be arrogance and assuming you're always right. And if you were to be proven wrong, then what? Of course, this is impossible to test due to the present lacking of any form of transport to a non-existent world. All that we know is that what's written down in books in the ES universe, and we have to trust in what that says.

Considering half of them seemed to be designed to contradict the other half, we don't. :PI don't view telling a group of people they're wrong as an act of arrogance. I've been wrong about many things, and I've wished someone would have corrected me earlier. Science has shown the things I've claimed to be true are, more likely then not true. Occam's Razor has been immensely useful to science, look it up on a certain wiki. Knowledge is not arrogance, it is merely knowledge. Mundus behaves much like our own, therefore the machinery has to be very similar. Again, you can't mix in cat hair and leaves and expect to get something resembling what you would get with sugar and spice.

5b. Merely because you claim Mundus follows the laws of a real world doesn't make it true. Now you're making a double standard. On the first point, just because it resembles our world doesn't mean everything works the same. I return to my statement about bacon and not-actually-bacon. Just because something looks like something doesn't mean it is. Gravity need not work the same way. It might not even be gravity - it could be another force entirely. But it does the same thing. And for the record, I believe Nirn is a spherical planet. On the second - I never said it was true, or even logical, I just said what if. Again, you're stating how many reasons something wouldn't work instead of just opening your mind and thinking about it.

I return to my statement regarding cat hair and sugar. Asking questions like "What if you are wrong" is fairly pointless. Because there is little evidence I am wrong, I've been wrong about many things. I'm fully willing to admit that. I've considered what you've said and ruled it out because operating on my knowledge of reality and how I have seen magic interact with Nirn and the possibility of other, more sensible options, simply renders what you've said null and void via the application of Occam's Razor. It all comes down to what we consider reliable evidence and we have very different standards. We just have different standards of evidence, hence our very different views on this matter.

5c. Of course, but I was merely making the point that they're not followed by most people because they contradict what is known. And I'm more inclined to believe historical records from the old Aldmer in the past, back when the universe was still being formed, about how it was being formed, rather than a group of monks. And even the Psijics, if I'm remembering my external lore correctly, are opposed to what the Thalmor are doing. They understand that the universe is uttering on the precipice of destruction, and they've been trying to maintain it as long as they can. Now, you actually aren't free to use the data you're talking about, because it applies to real life and not a fantasy story that isn't real life. Calling the people of said world clumsy and ignorant because they believe something different is going back to the trait of arrogance and superiority. Which is just like a member of the Thalmor with a less open mind.

It contradicts what they think is known. Personally, I don't trust records that say they've been around when the universe was being formed, indicates a culture with a big ego and a loose grip on reality. Yes, the Order is opposed to the Thalmor, like any sane being. Genocide is wrong no matter which way you cut it. The Thalmor are still wrong even though their attempt to destroy the universe are going to fail due to the reasons I've already brought up. Cultural creation myths are never all that reliable, I'm free to use that data because, as I've explained for the world to resemble ours in such a dramatic fashion, the machinery must be similar or operate in near to the same fashion. I have knowledge they don't posses, therefore I can apply it.....And please stop with the insults. Now your comparing me to a member of the Nazi-elves? Really?

6. I've heart plenty of stories... military/scientist here, though. Not much for enforcing my views on others. I'm more along the lines of protecting people from forcing their views from others. Also making things blow up.

Oh, I don't contest that some professors use their classes as personal podiums. I'm sure they do. But there are people in every position that do that. I could point to some examples, but they are not BZP-safe.

3. Mede wasn't a bad guy. But he shouldn't have handed over the worship of Talos to the Thalmor and allowed them to kill so many innocent people. A peace treaty would have been fine - the White Gold Concordant, which allowed Thalmor Justiciars unrestrained access to the Empire, was not. As many things as he did right, he did a dozen more wrong. Especially when he attempted to give away land in Hammerfell. Telling the Redguards to surrender is about the dumbest thing you can do if you want to hold the Empire together.

Perhaps he knew they could hold them off, but knew that the empire would be terminally weakened if he attempted to aid them. Tactical choices aren't always pleasant ones. He didn't tell them to surrender, he gave away the province. He probably expected them to fight back.

4. Reality as we know it is reality, but reality in the Elder Scrolls is not the same reality, as it is not real. Thus, it is subject to change in ways that reality in the real world is not. Like the fact that it's falling apart.

Except, as I've shown, it isn't if one accepts certain principles. Edited July 29, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. You're acting as though he knew everything. All that he knew was that he was going to die. He didn't know if he was going to die of age or what. He probably expected assassins, after his sons were taken out, but he had no idea before that. And like I said, it wouldn't have worked. Also, if you remember the opening of Oblivion, he knew who you were when you saw him, because he had seen you in his dreams. He didn't know where he would meet you, or when, only that fate was guiding your towards him.2. You already know the village doesn't exist, it's just part of the game. Nothing changes by acknowledge CHIM, save for the fact that the fake universe is still a fake universe. And how does it matter that something isn't fake? One other major facet of the Elder Scrolls - the thing that allows the Champion to become Sheogorath, even though he wasn't a Daedra - is that belief is one of the strongest forces. You may not be something, but you can become it. Again, the Nerevarine prophecy - whether or not Azura actually reincarnated somebody is up to debate, and is not important. The fact that they met the requirements of that prophecy by fulfilling its instructions, and defeated Dagoth Ur, is.3. You'd get bored after the first couple centuries. I consider the crowning achievement of a persons life to be having a child with the person they love, raising them, passing on their teachings, and ensuring the species survives in the form of a new generation.4. True, true. The only difference is that I'm relying on what we know to be true about the setting, while you rely on what you know to be true about the real world. One is a principal that assumes a fantasy setting will actually be fantasy, and the other is that it will be realistic.5a. It's because when they use it in science, they use it as "which ever hypothesis requires the fewest assumptions". Not "whichever one is the most realistic". Sure, the two might meet, because in our world what's realistic often requires the least assumptions. It's impossible to apply that to fantasy. And you have to remember, as it states on said wiki, "A simpler but less correct theory should not be preferred over a more complex but more correct one". The amount of proof that the sun is a sky hole is the exact same that it is a ball of gas. And about your statement with cats - if you have a cat with hair made of sugar and a tree with leaves of spices, then said statement becomes invalidated. As it happens, Mundus has all sorts of strange creatures, not necessarily limiting a sugar flavored cat. Comparing Mundus to Earth... apples ot oranges.5b. My standard is the creators of the story, your standard is the real world. In any case - you're still misinterpreting it. Nothing in the razor says that the thing closest to the real world must be true. It just says the hypothesis that requires the least assumptions is true. And you're making the assumption that everything is going to be completely realistic.5c. First, I'm not comparing you to a nazi-Elf, I'm comparing the idea that claiming your world must be how all others operate runs along the same thought process as their beliefs. Only with a lot less genocide. Now - the knowledge you claim to possess can't be applied because it doesn't exist. Nothing we take from the real world can be applied to a fantasy setting. It doesn't work, because it's a story, and it's not real. And the Thalmor are still not wrong, they just understand something that few others do - that the world, being temporary, is only kept standing by temporary things, and by removing them, its own mortality comes into play. And elves ascend to immortality.~~~1. He. Gave. Away. Part. Of. Their. Lands. He had no right to do that. Are you saying that it would be perfectly fine if the government gave your backyard to the man who killed your father? No, it's not. And I would be out there waiting for him to show up with a rifle. Mede should not have signed the Concordant on those terms, especially when they were so alike to the Thalmor's original demands. He shouldn't have given them land, or allowed them to ban the worship of Talos. If he had, the Stormcloak Rebellion would never have happened, so Skyrim would be part of the empire and still in full strength, and Hammerfell would also continue to be part of the empire. Keep in mind that Bretons and Imperials are good warriors, but Redguard footsoldiers and Nordic warriors are much better. Betraying their own people was not a good move.2. Certain principles that can't be applied to fantasy.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

1. You're acting as though he knew everything. All that he knew was that he was going to die. He didn't know if he was going to die of age or what. He probably expected assassins, after his sons were taken out, but he had no idea before that. And like I said, it wouldn't have worked. Also, if you remember the opening of Oblivion, he knew who you were when you saw him, because he had seen you in his dreams. He didn't know where he would meet you, or when, only that fate was guiding your towards him.

If he had not been brought up with the foolish dogma that fate rules his life, then he would not have bowed to his visions so quickly and probably could have saved his own life and thus, the empire.

2. You already know the village doesn't exist, it's just part of the game. Nothing changes by acknowledge CHIM, save for the fact that the fake universe is still a fake universe. And how does it matter that something isn't fake?

The very idea is depressing. Nothing you will do will ever matter within the context of the game universe. Why in the heck would I want to play a game that operates on that concept? Life has made me cynical enough already. Thankfully, CHIM is of dubious validity and should remain so.

One other major facet of the Elder Scrolls - the thing that allows the Champion to become Sheogorath, even though he wasn't a Daedra - is that belief is one of the strongest forces. You may not be something, but you can become it. Again, the Nerevarine prophecy - whether or not Azura actually reincarnated somebody is up to debate, and is not important. The fact that they met the requirements of that prophecy by fulfilling its instructions, and defeated Dagoth Ur, is.

They met the requirements of a prophecy certainly but that doesn't make the prophecy true. It merely means they believed it to be true or that what it said seemed like a good idea. It has no bearing on the truth of the prophecy.

3. You'd get bored after the first couple centuries. I consider the crowning achievement of a persons life to be having a child with the person they love, raising them, passing on their teachings, and ensuring the species survives in the form of a new generation.

You don't know me very well then. I couldn't care less about having children and I'm uninterested in romantic love. I'm content with my books and studies thankyouverymuch. To claim I would get bored presumes knowledge on your part and assumes you have rejected the notion of someone enjoying immortality. Who isn't considering new ideas now?

4. True, true. The only difference is that I'm relying on what we know to be true about the setting, while you rely on what you know to be true about the real world. One is a principal that assumes a fantasy setting will actually be fantasy, and the other is that it will be realistic.

You are going from sources of dubious validity and cultural creation myths. These aren't good evidence. Seeing as the world behaves largely as a world should, minus the clear magical effects, then as I explain below, it must operate on similar machinery.

5a. It's because when they use it in science, they use it as "which ever hypothesis requires the fewest assumptions". Not "whichever one is the most realistic". Sure, the two might meet, because in our world what's realistic often requires the least assumptions. It's impossible to apply that to fantasy. And you have to remember, as it states on said wiki, "A simpler but less correct theory should not be preferred over a more complex but more correct one". The amount of proof that the sun is a sky hole is the exact same that it is a ball of gas. And about your statement with cats - if you have a cat with hair made of sugar and a tree with leaves of spices, then said statement becomes invalidated. As it happens, Mundus has all sorts of strange creatures, not necessarily limiting a sugar flavored cat. Comparing Mundus to Earth... apples ot oranges.

I don't understand your logic. As I say below, the world behaves like ours in many ways. Certain forces that magic cannot account for are acting on it, magic may be able to defy these forces, but the second the magical energy runs out, reality as we think of it reasserts itself. This can be confirmed by experimentation. Witness a mage becoming a flame thrower in Skyrim and then becoming some fellow in a robe the second his magical energy runs out. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a dark and appears to have the innards of a duck, it's a duck. Similarly, if it looks like a sun, acts like a sun and behaves like a sun, it's a sun. Or an advanced piece of technology designed to act like a sun. But Occam's Razor rules that out.

5b. My standard is the creators of the story, your standard is the real world. In any case - you're still misinterpreting it. Nothing in the razor says that the thing closest to the real world must be true. It just says the hypothesis that requires the least assumptions is true. And you're making the assumption that everything is going to be completely realistic.

Considering that Elder Scrolls canon changes at the drop of a hat, and that the sun behaves much like it does in our world, the world behaves much as it does in our world and that geological formation also seems to, it's clear that the machinery driving the world is much the same. That's not an assumption. Assuming the Sun, even when it acts exactly like ours, is a giant portal, is a huge assumption and the only evidence for it are some rather shoddy creation myths. Occam's Razor remains firmly in my hands.

5c. First, I'm not comparing you to a nazi-Elf, I'm comparing the idea that claiming your world must be how all others operate runs along the same thought process as their beliefs. Only with a lot less genocide. Now - the knowledge you claim to possess can't be applied because it doesn't exist. Nothing we take from the real world can be applied to a fantasy setting. It doesn't work, because it's a story, and it's not real. And the Thalmor are still not wrong, they just understand something that few others do - that the world, being temporary, is only kept standing by temporary things, and by removing them, its own mortality comes into play. And elves ascend to immortality.

No. They must run in a certain way for me to enjoy them and like playing in them. Having a personal taste in games doesn't make me a Thalmor and since I've interpreted the events and actions of the Elder Scrolls game in the way I have, it means I can enjoy them. I've explained most of this above. Saying the Thalmor aren't wrong doesn't make it so. Show me hard and reliable evidence, not creation myths and magical events that can be explained via other means.

1. He. Gave. Away. Part. Of. Their. Lands. He had no right to do that. Are you saying that it would be perfectly fine if the government gave your backyard to the man who killed your father? No, it's not. And I would be out there waiting for him to show up with a rifle. Mede should not have signed the Concordant on those terms, especially when they were so alike to the Thalmor's original demands. He shouldn't have given them land, or allowed them to ban the worship of Talos. If he had, the Stormcloak Rebellion would never have happened, so Skyrim would be part of the empire and still in full strength, and Hammerfell would also continue to be part of the empire. Keep in mind that Bretons and Imperials are good warriors, but Redguard footsoldiers and Nordic warriors are much better. Betraying their own people was not a good move.

The alternative was having the Thalmor march through the weakened empire, any one can tell it's better to build up and face a strong enemy rather then fight to the bitter end now when you can beat him later. Have you read the books regarding the Thalmor and the Great War? Most of them make it pretty clear just how dire the situation was. As for Hammerfall forcing them back, there's a difference between facing a resistance movement and an empire whose head can be cut off.

2. Certain principles that can't be applied to fantasy.

Except they can when the fantasy world behaves as if certain concepts are intact. Which Mundus does.And all of this makes me want to play Skyrim. I might not be on the for the rest of the day. Edited July 30, 2012 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

1. It's only a foolish dogma if you believe it to be. Besides, the man was almost ready to keel over anyways. Delaying the inevitable would have accomplished nothing, and might have been even worse.2. That's why they don't talk about that kind of stuff in-game, because some people take it way too seriously. At the second point - belief is the most important force there is, and one of the driving forces behind the Elder Scrolls. And other games, even. One of my favorite video game endings is that of Okami (highlight the white space for spoilers), which is when Amaterasu is fighting against Yami, she manages to seemingly defeat him. However, he manages to trick her into attempting to declare her victory, and when she does so, he makes a surprise attack and reveals his true power after draining all of hers. While this is happening, though, Issun, her friend, manages to go across the land and tell everybody about what she is doing, and restore their faith in her as a goddess, and about the gods as a hole, which had been waning. As pretty much everybody in the world you've met return their prayers, she is return to full power and is able to defeat Yami. Which I always felt was a very heartwarming moment. I doubt you would enjoy the game, though - it's hardly realistic. It's just a fun game that's fun to play, with a lot of basis in Japanese mythos.3. You're right, it is a big assumption. But for me, nothing would be worse than watching everything I'm attached to fade away around me. What you're describing is having emotional detachment from any form of family or friends. For me, emotional attachments are the most important thing about life. Which is, to get off subject, one of the most depressing things about the conventional concept of Heaven when I get into religious based things. In any case, we can pretty much close this point, since it's about other things entirely.4. It's true to the setting because it's what the developers say is true. I'm going to go with what the writers of the story say. I'm not the type who says "well, the writer said the curtains were blue, showing how emotional and sad he was, and bla bla", I'm the type who says "the curtains are just blue". And if the devs write articles describing the universe as a fantasy universe where things don't work the same as the real one, then I'm going to say the Elder Scrolls universe is a fantasy universe where things work differently. That just shows that they had more imaginative effort put into the world.5. Are you ignoring the fact that things are not always what they appear to be? How many artificial foods can you pick up at the super market, just to name on thing. Just because something is similar to something else doesn't mean that it is something else.6. What are you talking about? The cosmology of the Elder Scrolls hasn't changed since Morrowind. In fact, I don't think there really have been that many changes to canon, save for a few minor details such as information about Vampires and stuff. But the creation myths and the like have always been the same. And going back up to the above - just because two things look alike doesn't mean they're the same.Oh, and about the sun. Considering that the vampires in Dawnguard are planning to blot it out... well, I'm fairly certain that not something you could do if the sun were functioning the same way as a real world star. I guess we'll get to answer that when Dawnguard comes out on the good gaming platform and the PS3. I could probably get a lot more information that way, but since I'm unwilling to spoil the game for myself, I can't. Though I'm almost certain that a lot of the mythos stuff will be made more clear to you when it does, just from the stuff in the trailers.7. You can't prove them as not being wrong because it's a work of fiction. You can't test anything, and you can't prove anything. You just have to go with what the developers say, and you're ignoring it because you don't agree with it. Which I respect your opinion, but it continues making this debate increasingly pointless. In fact, this isn't really even a debate any more - a debate would imply that we're either trying to come to a decision (and we already have - two different ones), trying to convince somebody else (which we aren't - though I think a few people might be reading this and laughing at us), or having a competition to see who performed better (which there isn't one). All this is, is us arguing about a the story of a video game.))))))))))))))))))))))))))))((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((1. The problem is that we're only seeing sides from the side of the Empire, since Skyrim was on the Empires side. The Thalmor could very easily have been in just as bad of a position. The fact that they lacked the strength to even secure the lands in Hammerfell shows that, by the Great Wars end, they were just as tired as everybody else besides the neutral Argonians. The only difference between the Dominion and the Empire is that the Dominion refused to give up hope - they were trying to make themselves look like they still had power. The Empire, however, was visibly weak. Mede could have forced better terms to the Concordant. He delayed the inevitable - and all of Tamriel will suffer for it.2. One concept being the same doesn't mean they all are.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

7. Which I respect your opinion, but it continues making this debate increasingly pointless. In fact, this isn't really even a debate any more - a debate would imply that we're either trying to come to a decision (and we already have - two different ones), trying to convince somebody else (which we aren't - though I think a few people might be reading this and laughing at us), or having a competition to see who performed better (which there isn't one). All this is, is us arguing about a the story of a video game.

Indeed. This has gotten pointless, I think it's best to end it right here. Agreed?

[BenLuke]

Arguing about a video game story isn't silly.Arguing about video game metaphysics is, though.

[Angel Beat]

though I think a few people might be reading this and laughing at us

I'm just starting to resent the term Occam's Razor. :PAnyway, Shalidor's Maze was interesting.

[Havelock Vetinari]

In other news, I've managed to design another human looking nord. The adventures of Valund, scholar-mage, shall be interesting.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Indeed. This has gotten pointless, I think it's best to end it right here. Agreed?

Agreed.@ Valenti; Not as interesting as it could have been, though. The original maps for Labyrinthian, back in Arena, were far more complicated. But I guess they figure that gamers are too dumb to figure out a maze.Which I'm not going to argue that a lower percentage of gamers today can finish a maze than back when Arena was made. Just that not all of them. There should have been a prompt when you entered -

Do you have the patience and wit to finish a giant maze that your game is automatically mapping out for you?

Shaldior's Laybrinth <--- Yes ~*~ No --> Shalidor's Twisty Lines

I would have found that hilarious, honestly.Still, the ending is interesting. I was having problems with it for a while, though. My first character I took to the maze was a greatsword using nord, and I was one-shotting the end boss with a power attack every time and getting trapped in the glowy place. I looked it up to see what was bugging, and then I just power bashed him to get him to teleport me back... then gutting occurred.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Archer Vonn]

Seriously guys

[Havelock Vetinari]

A note, upon further reflection, Zehvor is likely right on most counts in that debate. I'm still going to play the game from the viewpoint I ascribed to, but I do not believe I am correct on the theories I presented in the canon sense. I play the game from that perspective because it makes it more enjoyable for me, but the canon differs from my viewpoint in many large ways. Thankfully it's obscure enough that I can get away with viably playing the game from my perspective.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

As long as it means you're giving Bethesda money to make more games enjoying yourself, it all works out. :PI'm starting to consider a few difficulties. The character I Oghma Infiniumed to max level, and will be of use against Legendary Dragons, is probably the weakest character of that level for dealing with Dragons.Well, if Level 53 or so isn't high enough to spawn a Legendary, I can just console the sucker in for my main. That would be the end of it.-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Makaru]

~73 is apparently when they start spawning.

[Ultimate_Kardas]

Technically they can start spawning around level 70, but are very very rare (or so I've heard). When I was around that level, I went to every dragon wall and was met with nothing but revered dragons. They commonly start spawning around 78. As soon as I was around that level (I was power leveling and skipped from 77 to 80) I went to Whiterun and a legendary dragon attacked the city almost immediately.~U_K~

[Archer Vonn]

What's the level cap? 100?

[Katuko]

The unmodded level cap is 81, as when all skills are leveled to 100 that's where you end up.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Oh gods. Horrifying realization.Just played through the quest involving Movarth in Morthal and I noted that the...

The Vampire Spy, Alva, if you leave her alive after clearing out the lair returns to Morthal a few days later. She'll even help you take down some of the Vampires in the lair.. You can find her diary and read it-typical stuff at first, girl longing for someone to spirit it her away. She meets Movarth the master Vampire and suddenly, after he turns her, the diary turns into something completely different. Because he's mentally dominating her-she's his thrall, under his control. When you killed him the control is broken and Alva is free. Now think back to all the novice vampires and soldiers you slaughtered to get at that one master vampire...they're likely in the same state.....So, my characters are all technically murderers now.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Basilisk

[Makaru]

Wat.Now I feel supremely bad.

[Takatu]

Eh, self defense. So they say they're finally gonna give us some information on Dawnguard for PC and PS3 this week. I assume it'll be at Quakecon this weekend. Woo!

[Wotz]

Eh, self defense. So they say they're finally gonna give us some information on Dawnguard for PC and PS3 this week. I assume it'll be at Quakecon this weekend. Woo!

I bet you anything the information will be 'we do not have any information at this time'

[BenLuke]

New information.

[Archer Vonn]

"We are just as excited as you to announce that our latest DLC, Dawnguard, WILL in fact be coming to PC and Playstation gamers in the near future!"

[BenLuke]

Oh I can already hear the internet butthurt that will ensue if that's all they tell us.On a different note, I believe my character has reached the point where Destruction stops being kinda overpowered and starts being borderline completely useless. Great.

Edited August 1, 2012 by BenLuke-116

[Katuko]

Yes, without a fix (COUGH MODS COUGH) for scaling Destruction magic damage, eventually all it has going for it is cheesiness with ridiculous boosts from potions or "free to spam" via enchantment abuse. Dual-cast Firebolt with Impact is also a cheap way of doing it. But if you avoid these three, then vanilla Destruction is rather underwhelming at higher levels; especially frost magic with all the things that are resistant to it.Mixing it up with other schools of magic can make Destruction better in conjunction, though.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Katuko

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Oh I can already hear the internet butthurt that will ensue if that's all they tell us.On a different note, I believe my character has reached the point where Destruction stops being kinda overpowered and starts being borderline completely useless. Great.

Alchemy, my good man. Alchemy. Enchanting may be useless to make your Destruction do anything but cost less, but Alchemy can make you potions of +70% or more damage to spells.You can destroy everything. Especially if you use lightning, because only Storm Atronach's resist it and you can just use other Summons to slowly kill them off. Or melee them if you're into that.Oh, and like Katuko was saying, mods. I find Mastered Magicka made things a lot more sensible.-Toa Levacius Zehvor Edited August 1, 2012 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Katuko]

I just found it sad when Firebolt was the only spell that seemed to be worth using at length. Especially when the powerful magic did little to Deathlords but with the Impact perk I could stun-lock them to death with basic spells.