SailorQuaoar Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 A comment by Greg F on the state of romantic relationships in the Bionicle universe has been a source of many arguments among the Bionicle fandom. That comment has been distilled over the years into the phrase "romance isn't canon." For many people it's a joke at this point, but for years a good chunk of the fanbase had been misinterpreting Greg's words as meaning that Matoran are unable to feel affection or love of any kind. This isn't true. What Greg really should have said in the first place was "Matoran can't have sex", but he used "romance" as a euphemism for sex since this is a kid-friendly site.That vagueness caused a lot of people to assume that love didn't exist at all in Bionicle, leading to a false idea that's stuck around for a long time. Sex and romance are not the same thing, and it's frustrating when so many people think that they are. Asexual people are still capable of having romantic relationships. Matoran may be canon asexual, but that doesn't mean they also have to be canon aromantic. So really, it should have been "sex isn't canon". (also this doesn't even apply to Okoto since Protectors have children) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naota Takizawa Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Still doesn't explain how Jaller and Hahli's romance got completely removed if Greg didn't mean all the inhabitants can't feel any love or affection. 4 Quote If you like Pingu & want to support a good project, click here. Also, I've rejoined the BZPRPG & I have a new profile for a new game. Click here to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkeletonMan939 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Matoran are not built to have romantic affection for each other. Simple as that. They can love each other the way family and friends would, but they have no concept of romance. Agori/Glatorian/Skrall are a totally different case of course. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahkshi Lalonde Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Still doesn't explain how Jaller and Hahli's romance got completely removed if Greg didn't mean all the inhabitants can't feel any love or affection. i'm gonna have to second this. as much as he was just saying "no robosex pls" greg did seem to imply several times romance /always/ becomes more... ...intimate down the road. which i will have to disagree with him on, really. :t there was no reason for him to say that jaller/hahli or hewkii/macku were "like friends" what next, nokama and vhisola were "great gal pals"? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkeletonMan939 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) greg did seem to imply several times romance /always/ becomes more... ...intimate down the road. When? I'm confused about what you're trying to say... Edited August 2, 2015 by TheSkeletonMan939 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahkshi Lalonde Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) i'm referring to while he did, as OP said, use "romance" as a kid-friendly blanket term, he also had a habit of cutting off romantic relations matoran developed, as if "romance" automatically means "will produce hideous organic offspring down the road in a manner not safe for work" which is all pretty silly. :r Edited August 2, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil_jaga_genius Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Ah, a nice, thoughtful take on the phrase. I hope this doesn't turn into a flame war though. 2 Quote Avatar by Nicholas Anderson (NickonAquaMagna)My blog: The Jaga's Nest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkeletonMan939 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) i'm referring to while he did, as OP said, use "romance" as a kid-friendly blanket term, he also had a habit of cutting off romantic relations matoran developed, as if "romance" automatically means "will produce hideous organic offspring down the road in a manner not safe for work" When you're a robot programmed to make sure the Great Spirit is all up and running it doesn't do well to have a special someone in the way of your work. That's the way I see it. The Great Beings wanted one less distraction for the Matoran to drive them away from their work. That's why Metru Nui, the "brain" of Mata Nui, had the Vahki. It was imperative that those Matoran especially not become too comfortable with the world around them. Remember, the Great Beings never wanted to create too sentient of life forms. The Matoran and Mata Nui had one endgame: fixing the Great Beings' home. The Matoran were not created as a test project or some sort of experiment. It was a last-ditch all-or-nothing gamble, and the GBs wanted to be able to lessen any risks of failure. Edited August 2, 2015 by TheSkeletonMan939 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahkshi Lalonde Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 that was written that way to compensate the earlier information, not the other way around. :0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkeletonMan939 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) that was written that way to compensate the earlier information, not the other way around. :0 The way I understand it is that not Greg, but the original story team had a very clear idea of who and what Mata Nui was right from the very, very, very beginning, and in turn who/what the Matoran were. We received the information in a backwards sort of way, but it was probably not envisioned that same direction. And keep this in mind: Huki/Maku were only a couple in the Templar stuff. Edited August 2, 2015 by TheSkeletonMan939 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahkshi Lalonde Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 that just feels like it's giving them a bit too much uh, credit? on this matter. like OP said, Matoran are Asexual beings (they're made in a machine after all) but they aren't necesarily aromanitc, (since romance stems mostly from emotion, and they've got loads of that.) there's not much room to excuse the story team for the idea that romance is somehow a bad thing for an entire species to have, and no need to try and cover it through plot elements that involve their entire sapience being a "fluke", an "experiment" or, "all part of a grander plan". honestly that's all kinds of insulting to the Matorans' existence, and, canonically implausible. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishers64 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) 4) Will there be any relationships between the characters in the movie? In terms of romantic relationships? No -- they are going to be a little too busy fighting Rahkshi to worry about that. Q:Are there any romance/relationship in the Mask of Light movie? A:Not really. 91.DO metruan have girlfriends and such, like romance? To be honest, I have never really seen the point of romantic relationships in BIONICLE, since they cannot lead anywhere. It's something they have fun with on the web, it is not something I concern myself with. Do you think a romance between two characters might ever play a lead role in Bionicle? I doubt it. Not on my watch, anyway. I have never seen the point in introducing romances into a toy line aimed at boys 8-12, and into a culture where the potential for marriage and children does not exist.All of that is from 2003-2004. So he knew about the robot thing long ago. Edited August 2, 2015 by fishers64 4 Quote Hero Factory RPG | Bionicle Mafia XXIX: Storyline & Theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahkshi Lalonde Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) To be honest, I have never really seen the point of romantic relationships in BIONICLE, since they cannot lead anywhere. It's something they have fun with on the web, it is not something I concern myself with. I doubt it. Not on my watch, anyway. I have never seen the point in introducing romances into a toy line aimed at boys 8-12, and into a culture where the potential for marriage and children does not exist. so, greg actually said these, yes? i'm gonna have to second this. as much as he was just saying "no robosex pls" greg did seem to imply several times romance /always/ becomes more... ...intimate down the road. which i will have to disagree with him on, really. :t just like i thought. Edited August 2, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishers64 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Yes, Greg did say that. 1 Quote Hero Factory RPG | Bionicle Mafia XXIX: Storyline & Theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Oh joy, another one of these discussions. If somebody ever makes a list of the most commonly recurring topics in S&T, this would definitely be one of them. Don't get me wrong, if I had total control over the Bionicle lore, canonizing romantic love would be the first thing I'd do. But unfortunately, I've just about given up on the hope that romance would be canon. Greg has been beaten over the head with this question countless times and has shown no indication of being willing to change that. If he hasn't given in now, there's little to no chance that he'll give in in the future. But we've got headcanons for a reason, right? 2 Quote bZpOwEr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorQuaoar Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 Ok so let me get this straight. GregF says that romantic feelings aren't canon because they will eventually lead to marriage? Well that's just. I don't even know what to say. It shows a profound misunderstanding of relationships. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobber Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Ok so let me get this straight. GregF says that romantic feelings aren't canon because they will eventually lead to marriage? Well that's just. I don't even know what to say. It shows a profound misunderstanding of relationships.Marriage doesn't make sense in Bionicle though. Why would they NEED to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Ok so let me get this straight. GregF says that romantic feelings aren't canon because they will eventually lead to marriage? Well that's just. I don't even know what to say. It shows a profound misunderstanding of relationships.Marriage doesn't make sense in Bionicle though. Why would they NEED to? You don't NEED to have chairs in your house to survive, do you? No. So chairs don't make any sense at all. Let's remove chairs from existence. 6 Quote bZpOwEr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobber Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Ok so let me get this straight. GregF says that romantic feelings aren't canon because they will eventually lead to marriage? Well that's just. I don't even know what to say. It shows a profound misunderstanding of relationships.Marriage doesn't make sense in Bionicle though. Why would they NEED to? You don't NEED to have chairs in your house to survive, do you? No. So chairs don't make any sense at all. Let's remove chairs from existence. Nice straw man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Ok so let me get this straight. GregF says that romantic feelings aren't canon because they will eventually lead to marriage? Well that's just. I don't even know what to say. It shows a profound misunderstanding of relationships.Marriage doesn't make sense in Bionicle though. Why would they NEED to? You don't NEED to have chairs in your house to survive, do you? No. So chairs don't make any sense at all. Let's remove chairs from existence. Nice straw man. How was that strawmanning? Just because the Matoran didn't need to have romance in their lives doesn't mean that it's unseasonable for it to still exist. The same applies with chairs. We could sit on the floor and live life (almost) normally, but we still have chairs anyway. Edited August 2, 2015 by The Irrational Rock Quote bZpOwEr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXRollOutIX Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Marriage is a societal invention; chairs are a technical invention designed for convenience. I don't really think that comparison is a good example... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishers64 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Chairs make life more comfortable though. Romantic love does not. How many perfectly good friendships end because one wants romance and the other doesn't, or because a bunch of people thought they were a couple when they were not, or because neither party could control themselves and the desire for romance destroys what they had? I understand why people want that deep connection, and we do benefit from such deep connections, but it does come with a cost that no chair ever will. Personally I thought it was beneficial to look at a universe platonic in a story as a useful thought experiment, since I would think that it would make male-female interactions less intense and more relaxed, leading to a better understanding of the opposite gender through better communication. Bionicle obviously was not that story to begin with, and it isn't now, though. I do think that Greg's view of romantic connection is not accurate - that it can go deeper than just biological reproduction. However, I didn't see the point of putting it in there because they were A.I. for a robot and Bionicle IS a kid's toyline where romance would be viewed as icky. It was a marketing decision in view of the romance-adverse target audience. 5 Quote Hero Factory RPG | Bionicle Mafia XXIX: Storyline & Theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Marriage is a societal invention; chairs are a technical invention designed for convenience. I don't really think that comparison is a good example...Well... Eh, I can't think of a comeback for that. You've got me. Debate antics aside, I view romance as more of an emotion than a species' need to reproduce. A lot of other people, Greg included, don't see it the same way that I do. Since I happen to be at the end of the issue that isn't represented in the story, I just bank on my headcanons.That's one of the benefits of being in a fanbase that follows a story. If you don't like something, you can just treat it as if it were different. 1 Quote bZpOwEr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobber Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I think chairs are a sign that we as a society, aren't ready to move past the need to rest whenever we want. Sure, some provided the simplest of basic comfort anyone could want after working a hard job, but come on. Are they REALLY necessary? Why can't the big-brains come up with something that allows for someone to rest while standing? Same goes with marriage. If Matoran feel like their relationships need some sort of confirmation to prove that they are in said relationship, then sure. They can do that. But why would they? Why can't they just be 'friends in a romantic bond? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidron Nuva Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Well, I believe that since there's no sexuality in the Bionicle world, romantic feelings towards another person are considered as a deep friendship. I'm not sure if they should have a name for romantic feelings, even if they're capable of, well, feeling them. They know they like spending time with someone, but how is this different from a deep friendship? I like thinking that they are capable of romantic feelings towards each other (which are completly indipendent from gender) but don't have a name for such feelings. This makes them a little bit ingenuous and unaware of their own feelings. Edited August 2, 2015 by Hidron Nuva 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evergrey: Toa of Music Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Marriage is a societal invention; chairs are a technical invention designed for convenience. I don't really think that comparison is a good example...Well... Eh, I can't think of a comeback for that. You've got me. Debate antics aside, I view romance as more of an emotion than a species' need to reproduce. A lot of other people, Greg included, don't see it the same way that I do. Since I happen to be at the end of the issue that isn't represented in the story, I just bank on my headcanons.That's one of the benefits of being in a fanbase that follows a story. If you don't like something, you can just treat it as if it were different. Yeah, romance is definitely for focused on emotions/feelings. Simple gestures, just spending time together, and other things like that are definitely more romantic, especially in stories. Well, I believe that since there's no sexuality in the Bionicle world, romantic feelings towards another person are considered as a deep friendship. I'm not sure if they should have a name for romantic feelings, even if they're capable of, well, feeling them. They know they like spending time with someone, but how is this different from a deep friendship?This is another good way of looking at it. So...I know this is more a Gen 1 topic/debate, but do you think we'll get any character relationships in gen 2? Do ya'll want them?I don't think we'll get them, but I personally kind of do want them. It'll be something different for the line. 2 Quote Other great bands: Iron Maiden Journey Mercenary The Unguided Trivium Boston Stratovarius Symphony X Epica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorQuaoar Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 Well, I believe that since there's no sexuality in the Bionicle world, romantic feelings towards another person are considered as a deep friendship. I'm not sure if they should have a name for romantic feelings, even if they're capable of, well, feeling them. They know they like spending time with someone, but how is this different from a deep friendship?This is another good way of looking at it. So...I know this is more a Gen 1 topic/debate, but do you think we'll get any character relationships in gen 2? Do ya'll want them?I don't think we'll get them, but I personally kind of do want them. It'll be something different for the line. The Protectors have children since they pass their masks down from father to son, so yes. Reproduction is canon on Okoto. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir of the Chronicler Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Still doesn't explain how Jaller and Hahli's romance got completely removed if Greg didn't mean all the inhabitants can't feel any love or affection. There is a simple explanation for that, though- the Templar animations of 2002 introduced a plot thread LEGO did not feel beholden to in 2006. I'm sure they felt, why should we attempt to incorporate a potentially problematic romance that was introduced in now unsupported web media four years ago which newcomers won't have any frame of reference for? Looking back, you can see time and time again where the story suffered due to the dictates of business. At the same time, they were learning as they went- this was uncharted territory. If they knew then what they knew now, they would have never introduced the Jala/Hahli romance- as evidenced by much of the "flat" nature of G2's storyline. - Heir 2 Quote Click the banner. You know you want to. Shia Lebouf would tell you to just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidron Nuva Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Although romance is sorta canon in G2, I doubt we'll get any relationship. There is the possibility for them to happen, but I doubt any will be introduced, just like we didn't get any Agorii couple, or Glatorian couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir of the Chronicler Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I would literally bet the net worth of my entire LEGO collection the story team won't introduce a romance in G2. It wouldn't jive with anything we've seen of their M.O. thus far, and it creates too sticky a subject for the pre-teen market BIONICLE is meant for. - Heir 2 Quote Click the banner. You know you want to. Shia Lebouf would tell you to just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXRollOutIX Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 It would be really interesting if some of the Protectors had actual families. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naota Takizawa Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 It would be really interesting if some of the Protectors had actual families. I believe Bingzak said his entire family is dead, will that count as a family appearing in the story? Also, what if they were revived by the Skull Grinder, would they count as living relatives? 3 Quote If you like Pingu & want to support a good project, click here. Also, I've rejoined the BZPRPG & I have a new profile for a new game. Click here to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evergrey: Toa of Music Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) It would be really interesting if some of the Protectors had actual families.I believe Bingzak said his entire family is dead, will that count as a family appearing in the story? Also, what if they were revived by the Skull Grinder, would they count as living relatives? That turned morbid quickly...but cool I would be on board with this (doubt the target audience will *sigh*) Edited August 3, 2015 by Evergrey_Toa Quote Other great bands: Iron Maiden Journey Mercenary The Unguided Trivium Boston Stratovarius Symphony X Epica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXRollOutIX Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Haha. I'm not sure about that. I'm talking more of like a Hawkeye situation. Like it's later revealed that Narmoto (for example) has children and/or a significant other. It seems like Protectors are something like celebrities in their society, so it would be sort of a nice down-to-earth realization that aside from their bravery and skill, they're just like normal villagers. For lack a a better word, it would "humanize" them. Maybe that's putting too much focus on side characters, though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishers64 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I'm not sure the Protectors exactly qualify as side characters. They play a pretty significant role in the story, similar to G1's Turaga, who were hardly beings to ignore. 2 Quote Hero Factory RPG | Bionicle Mafia XXIX: Storyline & Theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Inika Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I also doubt we'll get actual romance in G2. I think they just made it a possibility so the fans wouldn't criticize it as sexist the way we did in G1, much like how the Agori and Glatorian had families, but Greg never cared to explore it. Quote "You are an absolute in these uncertain times. Your past is forgotten, and your future is an empty book. You must find your own destiny, my brave adventurer." -- Turaga Nokama Click here to visit my library! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir of the Chronicler Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) That's what we have the Library for, I guess. For those familiar with Tolkien's expanded work, the family trees of the Dwarves would work well with the protectors, IMO. For example, most of Thorin's company was related to him through varying degrees of separation, yet the line of succession went Thror (grandfather) > Thrain (father) > Thorin > Fili & Kili (nephews) > Dain (Cousin). I could easily see something similar for the Protectors from the time Ekimu and Makuta fought to the present day- you have a family tree branching off from the original Protectors who heard the prophecy, and whosoever is currently the most senior gets stuck with the job. Of course, I'm partial to the inclusion of lineage in BIONICLE, regardless: my name comes from an earlier time when I assumed Tohunga had natural lifespans, and Takua's son would become the Heir of the Chronicler. Look, it was 2002, okay?! :-P More on-topic, I feel the argument of asexual romance hits the nail on its head. Perhaps Mass Effect's Asari provide a good north star to go by, as they reproduce offspring possessing the traits of both parents without... well, you know. - Heir Edited August 3, 2015 by Heir of the Chronicler 1 Quote Click the banner. You know you want to. Shia Lebouf would tell you to just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyichir Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I'm still of the opinion that Greg's denial of romance in the story was mostly a clumsy escape clause to avoid having to answer shipping questions. If I were him, I certainly wouldn't want to have to explain repeatedly that "Hahli having a close friendship with Matoro does not mean she's cheating on Jaller" or "Gali is a strong independent Toa who don't need no man, so stop asking which of the Toa Mata she likes". Greg certainly didn't avoid hinting at romance between characters like Nokama and Matau, even outside of the novelizations of other media like the movies. In any case, I hope the new story doesn't follow in Greg's footsteps. It's fine for the story to not feature romantic relationships (especially among the main characters), but to double down on that and insist that romance is illogical for the characters and thus doesn't exist at all is a gargantuan mistake. 9 Quote Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence Aanchir's and Meiko's brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toa kopaka4372 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Romance was canon in G1 though, just not with the inhabitants of the Matoran universe. Sahmad was confirmed to have loved a woman in the romantic sense before she died from the Dreaming Plague, and Greg basically confirmed that Kiina had romantic feelings for Mata Nui. More recently, Greg suggested the possibility of the MU inhabitants developing the concept of romantic love now that they are interacting extensively with the Agori and their kind on Spherus Magna. Quote Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii EnterprisesMy Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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