Question About Organic Masks

[Makuta Matata]

Do organic masks have a consciousness like the Ignika did? Because in Power Play, it seems like they do. Jaller said that he could feel his mask prompting him and helping him use his mask powers, and once he learned to use them, he felt the mask give it's approval. Or, at least, do they have any form of consciousness at all?

Edited January 10, 2012 by knuckles chaotix

[BioGio]

Yes, they were sentient. They were even capable of communicating with some of the Inika (especially Hahli).They may not have had the intelligence of, say, the Ignika, but there's also the matter that the Ignika was millennia older than the Inika Kanohi.~ BioGio

Edited January 10, 2012 by BioGio

[FrozenFlash]

They might have some form consciousness because they are "alive." They aren't even true Kanohi.

[Steelsheen]

They might have some form consciousness because they are "alive." They aren't even true Kanohi.

Now, that bit always puzzled me. If they're not kanohi, (albeit, extremely weird ones) then what are they? True, sometimes they trigger at the Toa's command. (Nuparu sarcastically wished his mask would work, and it did) But then they (the kanohi) also activate themselves. (Jaller didn't know how to use his mask, but just instinctively jumped over the lava to save Hahli; Hahli got headaches that, come to think of it, never did lead anywhere... That was kind of just dropped) They're not krana, or kraata, or even that weird slug-thing Onewa got in his mask in Maze of Shadows. Toa should be weak without true kanohi on their faces, so why are the Toa Inika just fine if they aren't kanohi? But then, if they are kanohi, why are they squishy? I personally think this part of the storyline was just too rushed to give us any canon answers.-HH

[The Lorax]

They are kanohi, in that they did everything that a kanohi would do. They are just really, really unusual kanohi, being made of different stuff and sentient. Neither of these on their own make the inika's kanohi unique. The ignika was sentient, and some masks such as the krahkan were made of different materials. So, yeah, they were kanohi, just very strange ones.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, Hahli Historian, they did everything normal Kanohi do, so for example the Toa aren't weakened. They just did more besides, including being alive.What I'm curious about is what happened to their consciousnesses -- they were apparently basically killed by the Ignika, which nobody in the story or among the fans besides me has ever apparently been disturbed by. I wonder if spirit remnants of theirs might still be attached to what the masks became, and perhaps they could come back? Or are they more like very simplistic minds with no personality beyond training for their powers, thus there was no real loss?

[Disciple]

Just so you know, bonesii, that part disturbed me too. It is kinda creepy that the Toa never seemed bothered by it.

[Voxumo]

I must say that i think they did not have full fledged minds but were more like a robotic form of mind where they know what they are and know what they do.i hope that made sense.

[25K Now!]

Yeah, they were sentient, for they could perceive, feel and were conscious. I don't really know if they had complicated thought processes or not, but they were somewhat intelligent. I would compare to dolphins or chimpanzees, because those two species aren't at our level of thought, but are rather intelligent.Like others above me, I too was creeped out by the fact that nobody cared when they sort of 'died'.

[Steelsheen]

Again, it was just too rushed to give us time to figure out what happened, either when the masks became "sentient" or when they "died". (Which, come to think of it, was kind of murderous on the Ignika's part - killing other masks) The canon story skipped over so much of how the Toa felt that I find myself needing to invent it. And for the record, the "our-masks-are-sentient-but-now-they're-not" thing disturbed me too.-HH

[Tattorack]

Just so you know, bonesii, that part disturbed me too. It is kinda creepy that the Toa never seemed bothered by it.

Yeah, Hahli Historian, they did everything normal Kanohi do, so for example the Toa aren't weakened. They just did more besides, including being alive.What I'm curious about is what happened to their consciousnesses -- they were apparently basically killed by the Ignika, which nobody in the story or among the fans besides me has ever apparently been disturbed by. I wonder if spirit remnants of theirs might still be attached to what the masks became, and perhaps they could come back? Or are they more like very simplistic minds with no personality beyond training for their powers, thus there was no real loss?

I'd think they were more... simple. Like spidermite intelligence; no personality, no feelings, barely being actaully alive, just sentient with a purpos.

[T.B.O.C]

They might have some form consciousness because they are "alive." They aren't even true Kanohi.

Now, that bit always puzzled me. If they're not kanohi, (albeit, extremely weird ones) then what are they? True, sometimes they trigger at the Toa's command. (Nuparu sarcastically wished his mask would work, and it did) But then they (the kanohi) also activate themselves. (Jaller didn't know how to use his mask, but just instinctively jumped over the lava to save Hahli; Hahli got headaches that, come to think of it, never did lead anywhere... That was kind of just dropped) They're not krana, or kraata, or even that weird slug-thing Onewa got in his mask in Maze of Shadows. Toa should be weak without true kanohi on their faces, so why are the Toa Inika just fine if they aren't kanohi? But then, if they are kanohi, why are they squishy? I personally think this part of the storyline was just too rushed to give us any canon answers.-HH

No, the pain increased as they neared the Ignika. The pain was telling them that they were getting closer to the Ignika. It was never dropped, maybe not fully explained, however.

[fishers64]

It was a cheap explanation for why the Toa were able to learn their complicated Mask powers quickly was to imbue their masks with sentient life. Of course, that didn't explain how they were able to quickly learn their Mahri powers, but I chalk that up to accident and experience. Probably why there was so little grief over the Mask's 'deaths' was that our fellow Toa didn't have time to care. When the universe is ending, do you really care about the deaths of a few masks over the fate of the universe? Also, the Ignika didn't have too many options either. I'm guessing that organic masks can't breathe underwater, so when the Ignika changed the Inika to Mahri, it choose to give said masks a painless death by transformation rather than a painful death by drowning.

[Makuta Matata]

Yeah, Hahli Historian, they did everything normal Kanohi do, so for example the Toa aren't weakened. They just did more besides, including being alive.What I'm curious about is what happened to their consciousnesses -- they were apparently basically killed by the Ignika, which nobody in the story or among the fans besides me has ever apparently been disturbed by. I wonder if spirit remnants of theirs might still be attached to what the masks became, and perhaps they could come back? Or are they more like very simplistic minds with no personality beyond training for their powers, thus there was no real loss?

Never really thought of that. It probably just disappeared just like Ignika's did when Mata Nui's was put into it.

[fishers64]

Yeah, Hahli Historian, they did everything normal Kanohi do, so for example the Toa aren't weakened. They just did more besides, including being alive.What I'm curious about is what happened to their consciousnesses -- they were apparently basically killed by the Ignika, which nobody in the story or among the fans besides me has ever apparently been disturbed by. I wonder if spirit remnants of theirs might still be attached to what the masks became, and perhaps they could come back? Or are they more like very simplistic minds with no personality beyond training for their powers, thus there was no real loss?

Never really thought of that. It probably just disappeared just like Ignika's did when Mata Nui's was put into it.

No, the Ignika's mind never disappeared, it was just subordinate to Mata Nui's mind.

The mask at first resisted –it, too, knew that it might well not survive this, and it did not want to cease to exist. Mata Nuicould have forced it to aid him – he had a stronger will – but he did not. Instead, he simplypictured in his mind how Spherus Magna could be if this was successful. He knew the maskwould sense what was in his thoughts and that it would know this would be the ultimate use ofits power.

Not gone, just subordinate. Edited January 11, 2012 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

It was a cheap explanation for why the Toa were able to learn their complicated Mask powers quickly was to imbue their masks with sentient life. Of course, that didn't explain how they were able to quickly learn their Mahri powers, but I chalk that up to accident and experience.Probably why there was so little grief over the Mask's 'deaths' was that our fellow Toa didn't have time to care. When the universe is ending, do you really care about the deaths of a few masks over the fate of the universe?Also, the Ignika didn't have too many options either. I'm guessing that organic masks can't breathe underwater, so when the Ignika changed the Inika to Mahri, it choose to give said masks a painless death by transformation rather than a painful death by drowning.

Good point about desperate times, desperate measures. But the Ignika has caused all kinds of wacky effects on life; enabling organic masks to breathe water should be easy. And wasn't the Ignika used when Matoro sacrificed himself to turn the other Mahri back into air-breathers? I'm not sure they were actually waterbreathers organically anyways, but there's this quote from BS01:

However, during his last moments as an individual, he teleported the other Toa Mahri back to Metru Nui, where they became amphibious by the power of Matoro and the Ignika.

[CroMagnonMan]

I must say that i think they did not have full fledged minds but were more like a robotic form of mind where they know what they are and know what they do.i hope that made sense.

You mean, kind of like what the Matoran themselves are? That carries with it some unfortunate implications...

[Voxumo]

I must say that i think they did not have full fledged minds but were more like a robotic form of mind where they know what they are and know what they do.i hope that made sense.

You mean, kind of like what the Matoran themselves are? That carries with it some unfortunate implications...

No think vahki they know their vahki/robots and know their purpose to keep the law. Same with the organic kanohi They know they are kanohi mask and that they have powers and they know they are suppose to grant the power onto a user. Also just like vahki they can come up with solutions or strategy like how the organic mask helped the toa use their mask powers like lickidy split. I don't' think they really had the full picture of being alive but just went on their instincts.

[fishers64]

It was a cheap explanation for why the Toa were able to learn their complicated Mask powers quickly was to imbue their masks with sentient life. Of course, that didn't explain how they were able to quickly learn their Mahri powers, but I chalk that up to accident and experience.Probably why there was so little grief over the Mask's 'deaths' was that our fellow Toa didn't have time to care. When the universe is ending, do you really care about the deaths of a few masks over the fate of the universe?Also, the Ignika didn't have too many options either. I'm guessing that organic masks can't breathe underwater, so when the Ignika changed the Inika to Mahri, it choose to give said masks a painless death by transformation rather than a painful death by drowning.

Good point about desperate times, desperate measures. But the Ignika has caused all kinds of wacky effects on life; enabling organic masks to breathe water should be easy. And wasn't the Ignika used when Matoro sacrificed himself to turn the other Mahri back into air-breathers? I'm not sure they were actually waterbreathers organically anyways, but there's this quote from BS01:

However, during his last moments as an individual, he teleported the other Toa Mahri back to Metru Nui, where they became amphibious by the power of Matoro and the Ignika.

That's what I get for guessing. But seriously, I'm going to say that the Mask thought organic Masks underwater would have been liabilities underwater somehow. Either that, or it is a component of the organic Masks that they are power X. Obviously the Mask of Life needed to switch the powers, and maybe the only way to do that was to "kill" the masks. Also, organic masks are a unique thing to the Inika - the powers that the Ignika needed to switch the masks to were likely more common in "dead" form, and the Ignika may not have even known how to switch the powers without changing the nature of the Masks. These guys are the only "red-star fried into Toa team" anyway, and likely the Ignika did not have time to adjust for this when transforming them. The other, more likely, thing is that organic beings that are alive contain Life energy. It would have probably been easier in the moment of transformation (with the Ignika decaying and time and power at a premium) to drain that energy from the Masks and use it to help with the transformation instead of leaving it the way it was and taking more power to do the whole thing.

[Protodite Karzahni]

You know, I've always personally viewed them as a plant-like creature, alive but not sentient, capable of reacting, but not capable of planning. So finding out that they were sentient and capable of thinking is surprising. Given that, it's likely they were a brand new species of Kanohi-Creature, which is shocking when you think about it. I assume they're still alive now, given how Jaller and co. are now back in their Inika forms. If not, I will be severely displeased.

[bonesiii]

The other, more likely, thing is that organic beings that are alive contain Life energy. It would have probably been easier in the moment of transformation (with the Ignika decaying and time and power at a premium) to drain that energy from the Masks and use it to help with the transformation instead of leaving it the way it was and taking more power to do the whole thing.

That makes a lot of sense. So the life energy may have had to be "spent" for the transformation to work.I was thinking something similar; that the life energy was perhaps fused into the Mahri, giving them innate instinct for what their new Mahri mask powers were. It would explain why they didn't need to learn them like the Metru or be tought them like they did as Inika.

Either that, or it is a component of the organic Masks that they are power X. Obviously the Mask of Life needed to switch the powers, and maybe the only way to do that was to "kill" the masks.

Now that may be the best point. Have we ever seen the Ignika reprogram someone's mind to something totally new? There's Dekar/Hydraxon, but that was not a new mind. It might be impossible to force the masks to know what their new power is, so killing them may have been essential. Otherwise they might have continued to tell the Mahri their powers were the same, and the Mahri might conclude their masks simply stopped working. (True, the different shapes should be a clue, and they might have figured it out eventually, but there was no time for extra hurdles.)Still, it's disturbing, IMO. :PYou know, I'm seeing a possible contradiction here between things you guys are saying though -- you're saying they were "sentient" and yet like Vahki. I don't think of the Vahki as sentient myself. Maybe it's disagreement instead of contradiction, but it seems we know they were sentient. Are we saying they were like animals? Sentient but not sapient (not humanlike intelligence)? So their deaths may have been equivalent to a Rahi dying? (Which is still disturbing to me but okay. )

[toa kopaka4372]

Yeah, the idea of masks getting killed sounds really disturbing... :PYeah, it's possible they're actually some new type of Rahi/creature/mask. In Power Plan , when Hewkii tried to touch one of the other Toa's mask which was on the floor, it cringed, so the masks can feel, but they might not be very intelligent.I think this part of the story needs to explained better. I haven't really thought about the Inika masks like this before.

[Makuta Matata]

Yeah, Hahli Historian, they did everything normal Kanohi do, so for example the Toa aren't weakened. They just did more besides, including being alive. What I'm curious about is what happened to their consciousnesses -- they were apparently basically killed by the Ignika, which nobody in the story or among the fans besides me has ever apparently been disturbed by. I wonder if spirit remnants of theirs might still be attached to what the masks became, and perhaps they could come back? Or are they more like very simplistic minds with no personality beyond training for their powers, thus there was no real loss?

Never really thought of that. It probably just disappeared just like Ignika's did when Mata Nui's was put into it.

No, the Ignika's mind never disappeared, it was just subordinate to Mata Nui's mind.

The mask at first resisted – it, too, knew that it might well not survive this, and it did not want to cease to exist. Mata Nui could have forced it to aid him – he had a stronger will – but he did not. Instead, he simply pictured in his mind how Spherus Magna could be if this was successful. He knew the mask would sense what was in his thoughts and that it would know this would be the ultimate use of its power.

Not gone, just subordinate.

That explains a lot.In that case, I do feel bad for those organic masks.

[fishers64]

You know, I've always personally viewed them as a plant-like creature, alive but not sentient, capable of reacting, but not capable of planning. So finding out that they were sentient and capable of thinking is surprising. Given that, it's likely they were a brand new species of Kanohi-Creature, which is shocking when you think about it. I assume they're still alive now, given how Jaller and co. are now back in their Inika forms. If not, I will be severely displeased.

"Jaller and Co." are not back in their Ignika forms. Mata Nui, acting with the Mask of Life, restored and undid the results of the Pit Mutagen, but the Toa Inika were transformed by the Ignika to their current state, not by the Pit Mutagen, and so their transformation was not reversed.

[Protodite Karzahni]

You know, I've always personally viewed them as a plant-like creature, alive but not sentient, capable of reacting, but not capable of planning. So finding out that they were sentient and capable of thinking is surprising. Given that, it's likely they were a brand new species of Kanohi-Creature, which is shocking when you think about it. I assume they're still alive now, given how Jaller and co. are now back in their Inika forms. If not, I will be severely displeased.

"Jaller and Co." are not back in their Ignika forms. Mata Nui, acting with the Mask of Life, restored and undid the results of the Pit Mutagen, but the Toa Inika were transformed by the Ignika to their current state, not by the Pit Mutagen, and so their transformation was not reversed.

Ah, well fair enough. I heard somewhere that they did, but I suppose my sources were tangled. Very well, I'll proceed to call that a little disappointing. I thought they looked for better as Inika than in their slightly less aesthetically pleasing Mahri forms. Edited January 12, 2012 by The Wretched Automaton

[Makuta Matata]

You know, I've always personally viewed them as a plant-like creature, alive but not sentient, capable of reacting, but not capable of planning. So finding out that they were sentient and capable of thinking is surprising. Given that, it's likely they were a brand new species of Kanohi-Creature, which is shocking when you think about it. I assume they're still alive now, given how Jaller and co. are now back in their Inika forms. If not, I will be severely displeased.

"Jaller and Co." are not back in their Ignika forms. Mata Nui, acting with the Mask of Life, restored and undid the results of the Pit Mutagen, but the Toa Inika were transformed by the Ignika to their current state, not by the Pit Mutagen, and so their transformation was not reversed.

Ah, well fair enough. I heard somewhere that they did, but I suppose my sources were tangled. Very well, I'll proceed to call that a little disappointing. I thought they looked for better as Inika than in their slightly less aesthetically pleasing Mahri forms.

Yes. This. Agreed.