Could Destiny be changed?

[CeeCee]

I was thinking about this earlier. Could some one who was destined to so something (like Lhikan making the TM) die before they had done that? It would seem kind if cheap to me that Lhikan wasn't around for so long because of his skill, but just because it was Mata Nui's will.

[Axilus Prime]

Yes. In the MU, destiny was a task given to someone in life, a purpose for existence. However, they had to complete it themselves.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I believe its been stated that the Destiny of an individual cannot be changed. Whatever their Destiny was (Teridax taking over the MU, the Nuva waking up Mata Nui, etc.), it would've happened no matter what.

[bonesiii]

I believe its been stated that the Destiny of an individual cannot be changed. Whatever their Destiny was (Teridax taking over the MU, the Nuva waking up Mata Nui, etc.), it would've happened no matter what.

Well, those two ideas are not necessarily the same thing. A person could die without their destiny having been achieved. Their destiny is still the same, but it may become impossible for them to fulfill it.That said, there are always weird options like the Mask of Life's trick in 'bringing back" Hydraxon that might technically count for destiny. Or actual revival like Jaller.Greg has also said that destiny may sometimes adapt. A particular destiny may find a different way than planned to become achieved (as Teridax's did). I don't know, but perhaps that extends even to changing who is destined to do it if the original person dies and no revival or recreation option is available.

[Hidron Nuva]

I like thinking it works just like in our universe, where you don't know what's your destiny untill it's fullfilled, you can only guess (or either think it doesn't exist at all ).

[Gahlok Va]

Lhikan's destiny was to create Toa Metru. Who says he needed to be alive for that? He could've made the Toa Stones by the time of Toa/Dark Hunter war, stored them somewhere and died. Then the Matoran could've found them later and transformed into Toa, thus completing Lhikan's destiny.

[CeeCee]

Lhikan's destiny was to create Toa Metru. Who says he needed to be alive for that? He could've made the Toa Stones by the time of Toa/Dark Hunter war, stored them somewhere and died. Then the Matoran could've found them later and transformed into Toa, thus completing Lhikan's destiny.

I never said he didnt have to be alive. I am asking whether or not it was possible for him to die before completing his destiny.

[CaptainLepidus]

Well, it seems that Mata Nui had a hand in ensuring destiny was fulfilled. Didn't he influence Lhikan's choice of Toa Metru? (Or was that the order of Mata Nui? I'm never really sure )

[CeeCee]

Well, it seems that Mata Nui had a hand in ensuring destiny was fulfilled. Didn't he influence Lhikan's choice of Toa Metru? (Or was that the order of Mata Nui? I'm never really sure )

If I remember correctly, ToMN tricked Terridax into thinking the destined Matoran(2004 ones) where to be Toa. Terridax then influneced Lhikan to pick the "wrong" Toa, who where the actual Toa metru. However Vakama and Co where actually meant to be Toa.That make sense?

[CaptainLepidus]

Well, it seems that Mata Nui had a hand in ensuring destiny was fulfilled. Didn't he influence Lhikan's choice of Toa Metru? (Or was that the order of Mata Nui? I'm never really sure )

If I remember correctly, ToMN tricked Terridax into thinking the destined Matoran(2004 ones) where to be Toa. Terridax then influneced Lhikan to pick the "wrong" Toa, who where the actual Toa metru. However Vakama and Co where actually meant to be Toa.That make sense?

I understand the logic, I just thought I'd read somewhere that it was Mata Nui himself who had convinced Teridax that the wrong Matoran were destined to be Toa Metru. So it was actually ToMN? Well that's a little depressing, kinda ruined the faith I had in him.

[CeeCee]

Well, it seems that Mata Nui had a hand in ensuring destiny was fulfilled. Didn't he influence Lhikan's choice of Toa Metru? (Or was that the order of Mata Nui? I'm never really sure )

If I remember correctly, ToMN tricked Terridax into thinking the destined Matoran(2004 ones) where to be Toa. Terridax then influneced Lhikan to pick the "wrong" Toa, who where the actual Toa metru. However Vakama and Co where actually meant to be Toa.That make sense?

I understand the logic, I just thought I'd read somewhere that it was Mata Nui himself who had convinced Teridax that the wrong Matoran were destined to be Toa Metru. So it was actually ToMN? Well that's a little depressing, kinda ruined the faith I had in him.

Maybe it was Mata Nui. I cant remember now

[Katuko]

In either case, Lhikan could very well have died before fulfilling that destiny. If so, Mata Nui would likely just map it onto someone else. Whether they would be able to accomplish it is another story. Ditto for such things as the Toa Nuva's mission: If they had died back in 2006, then I can see the Inika+maybe some new member would be given the task (seeing as the actual awakening required only the Mask of Life, not the Nuva specifically).

[The Iron Toa]

If I remember correctly, ToMN tricked Terridax into thinking the destined Matoran(2004 ones) where to be Toa. Terridax then influneced Lhikan to pick the "wrong" Toa, who where the actual Toa metru. However Vakama and Co where actually meant to be Toa.That make sense?

I understand the logic, I just thought I'd read somewhere that it was Mata Nui himself who had convinced Teridax that the wrong Matoran were destined to be Toa Metru. So it was actually ToMN? Well that's a little depressing, kinda ruined the faith I had in him.

Maybe it was Mata Nui. I cant remember now

Mata Nui himself implanted the idea in Teridax's mind. I think some OoMN agents might have planted physical evidence to support this deception (like a Toa Disk depicting one of those six Matoran) on Mata Nui's behalf, too.As for the destiny thing, I guess it has to do with Mata Nui and the Great Beings being able to see the future to some extent (perhaps the Great Beings cannot do so naturally, but they have inventions that can, like the Mask of Clairvoyance) as well as subconscious programming of MU beings. Real destiny, I would say, is simply what happens. This could be foreseen and planned for by Mata Nui and the Great Beings -- but they might not get the whole view of the future. For example, maybe the Great Beings looked into the future and confirmed that Teridax would aid Mata Nui in reforming Spherus Magna, but they did not see how exactly this would come to be.I was going to say maybe Mata Nui could subtly use his powers over the environment of his world and the ability to plant thoughts in his subjects' minds to influence their fate. But I realized he didn't pay much attention to the beings inside him. But what if he had a subconscious programming to manipulate his subjects into pre-planned destinies, without he himself realizing it? And he could even do it in his sleep? Sorry, this is probably a silly amount of speculation. I'm just trying to make sense of this somehow.

[The Lorax]

Yes, it is possible for someone (like Lhikan) to die before their destiny is complete. What their destiny is is probably impotant, because as has been pointed out above. Lhikan could have made the stones at any time and died before the transformation, but if his destiny had been something different, (like, for example, him sacrificing himself for Vakama or the Toa Nuva waking up Mata Nui), that would be difficult to achieve while dead.Resurection might help a dead being to have a second chance at their destiny, but it's not a chance many beings get.Things get a bit more complicated when you look at alternate universes. There, destinies can be different, or can be the same, or can be the same but unachieved. For example, Takua was not destined to become Takanuva in the Toa Empire universe, so nothing happened when he put on the Avohkii. In The Kingdom alternate universe, it was said that Matoro's destiny was to ressurect Mata Nui, but he failed. This had consequences for a lot of other beings. Tahu Nuva, for one, was killed trying to keep the Makuta out of the Kingdom, so he never got to fulfill his destiny of waking up Mata Nui. Takanuva's destiny was changed, because he was able to become a Turaga after keeping all the Makuta below ground and establishing The Kingdom, whereas we know that his destiny in the main universe has not yet been achieved, so probably has very little to do with subterranean Makuta.

[fishers64]

I thought it was agreed upon somewhere that your destiny is what is going to happen to you, you will acheive it no matter what, and any attempts to avoid that destiny will unwittingly put you on the path to fulfilling it. I thought that rule applied in Bionicle. Did I miss something? Now I will agree that Lhikan could make the Toa stones and die, and the Toa Metru could become Toa after he was dead, that would have been possible.

[bonesiii]

I thought it was agreed upon somewhere that your destiny is what is going to happen to you, you will acheive it no matter what, and any attempts to avoid that destiny will unwittingly put you on the path to fulfilling it.I thought that rule applied in Bionicle. Did I miss something?

It's true within a certain context, at least. As long as you're still alive, still in possible reach of the MU (versus being like rocketed to the edge of the universe or something lol), etc. But the problem with assuming it's absolutely going to happen no matter what is that these are programmed destinies, many of them intentionally set by the Great Beings and others by Mata Nui (possibly others even by an adaptive destiny program as I've theorized). These are using some unknown system within the protodermic world of the MU to guide events, but there can be other factors from outside the MU that could hypothetically get in the way.Take Teridax's destiny to control one of the two robots, with Mata Nui controlling the other. If he is obliterated beyond any possibility of revival prior to this, and Mata Nui too, then he cannot fulfill it. Yet, destiny could find another way by assigning someone else. It's also possible unforeseen events within the MU alone could disrupt some destiny assignments, such as the choices of Makuta. The system will try its hardest to avoid this, but we shouldn't just assume it could outsmart any possible action, or work around any possible internal accident.Or, if all the protodermis was destroyed, no destinies set by the GBs/etc. could be fulfilled.In other words, it isn't merely "whatever happens was always going to happen." In that sense, destiny is unavoidable, but that's a different destiny than the kinds we're talking about. A different term that's spelled the same, heh. (And it's only true in the sense that it was always going to happen as long as nothing leading up to it is changed, as alternate timelines show.) It's something that is actively working towards a goal within the MU, and is thus difficult to outsmart -- Teridax came close, on a huge scale, but generally it always wins. That said, it's possible that many small-scale, less important destinies have failed, and that it has adapted.In a sense, you could say that about Teridax, in fact. The biggest priorities were fulfilled, but smaller scale (comparatively) destinies that go along with that, determining how the top priorities were achieved, were thwarted and adapted to. Thus, if you phrase the question as, "Did Teridax thwart his destiny to willingly take over one of the robots and help reform the planet?" the answer is yes, technically.

[Makuta Matata]

I'm pretty sure that it was stated in Dark Destiny that by becoming Toa Inika, Jaller and co. had changed their own destinies. So I'd say yes.

Edited September 15, 2012 by knuckles chaotix

[Toa of Nerds]

Well, religion and philosphy have tried for millennia to answer that exact question.Personally, I think that the word "destiny" actually means "purpose". The Toa Nuva's purpose was to reawaken Mata-Nui in the event of Mata-Nui falling comatose. The Toa Metru's purpose was to save the matoran of Metru-Nui. I think beings can choose to go against their destiny. Just look at Nidikhi. However, they still have that purpose in them, whether they choose to fullfill it or not. I always shy away from the idea that the indivdual toa had no choice in their actions and tha their destiny was a forgone conclusion. If that was the case, then what's the purpose of even trying? If I'll fullfill my destiny no matter what then I'll just sit on the beach and drink beer all day while my destiny is fullfilled.-don't touch my pocket protector

[The Iron Toa]

Well, then your destiny would be to sit on the beach and drink beer all day. But it does make sense that beings have a purpose that they can turn away from, and that could be what Matoran refer to when they speak of destiny.I realized Nidhiki actually helped in a small way - Teridax's absorption of Nidhiki, Krekka, and Nivawk gave the Makuta the psychic indigestion that allowed the Toa Metru to defeat him. Maybe that was supposed to be Nidhiki's destiny?

[Katuko]

Or perhaps his Toa destiny went out the window when he was no longer a Toa, and he gained a new Dark Hunter destiny, and then that was cut short when he was killed. There's no real way of telling.Destiny in the MU might perhaps be kind of like a Sims command (). You tell the Sim to go take a shower, and he will do that once his priority queue reaches that point. If there is a fire, however, he would focus on the fire first, for example, so if you intended "take a shower" to be his "destiny", then it just got sidetracked, but not ignored. And then he finds out there is no bathroom in the house because you're a bad architect, and thus Destiny gets even further sidetracked because he has to get/build/substitute a bathroom first. He realizes he's in mortal danger from fire, and goes to fulfill Destiny immediately! And if he dies in the fire while trying to make a shower stall in the kitchen sink, then that destiny goes out the window and someone else has to do it. Maybe his kid picks up his father's charred tools and makes a shower stall next door 30 years later, finally fulfilling his family's destiny. Or maybe he slips in the stall and never completes the task. It's a crazy world.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Katuko

[The Legendary TNT]

Or perhaps his Toa destiny went out the window when he was no longer a Toa, and he gained a new Dark Hunter destiny, and then that was cut short when he was killed. There's no real way of telling.Destiny in the MU might perhaps be kind of like a Sims command ( ). You tell the Sim to go take a shower, and he will do that once his priority queue reaches that point. If there is a fire, however, he would focus on the fire first, for example, so if you intended "take a shower" to be his "destiny", then it just got sidetracked, but not ignored. And then he finds out there is no bathroom in the house because you're a bad architect, and thus Destiny gets even further sidetracked because he has to get/build/substitute a bathroom first. He realizes he's in mortal danger from fire, and goes to fulfill Destiny immediately! And if he dies in the fire while trying to make a shower stall in the kitchen sink, then that destiny goes out the window and someone else has to do it. Maybe his kid picks up his father's charred tools and makes a shower stall next door 30 years later, finally fulfilling his family's destiny. Or maybe he slips in the stall and never completes the task. It's a crazy world.

Wow, you make everyone sound expendable.I think everyone fulfills their destiny in some way. Your destiny could be to die first in a war. That isn't very fulfilling, but it gave a person behind you some cover. He lives and becomes the leader of a unit that ends the war and becomes a great hero. That is kind of a lame example, but I always thought that a destiny is destiny, no matter how large or small it may seem.

[Katuko]

Well, in my example it would be awfully inconvenient for a destiny to be delayed 30 years, so people would not be expendable even if their given task could be transferred to someone else.

[Toa Axis]

Destiny can't be changed in it's outcome, but if I remember correctly it can be altered as to how it is achieved.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

"Completing your destiny" is a false concept that makes no sense at all. So what if you complete your destiny? Nothing particularly special happens. You just turn into an old and weak Turaga.I personally think that BIONICLE only focused on destiny because the cheer "Unity, Duty, Destiny" has a nice ring to it.

Edited September 22, 2012 by TheSkeletonMan939

[The Legendary TNT]

Kopaka312 is right. Look at Teridax: he was supposed to work side by side with Mata Nui, take over control of the Matoran universe while Mata Nui went to a second robot and together reform Spherus Magna. However, his jealousy, greed, and ambition got in the way, and it delayed his destiny. But he still eventually helped reform the planet even if it wasn't what he intended to do.

[Constructelf]

"Completing your destiny" is a false concept that makes no sense at all. So what if you complete your destiny? Nothing particularly special happens. You just turn into an old and weak Turaga.I personally think that BIONICLE only focused on destiny because the cheer "Unity, Duty, Destiny" has a nice ring to it.

Well, from the point of view of a sapient being that could be correct but remember: destiny in the MU was not for the destined's benefit but for Mata Nui's benefit or his mission's benefit.Also, you tend to drag real life discussion into story discussion a lot. Pretend you're a matoran carving into a stone tablet, not some guy sitting at his computer. And read some of the other replies; they give many valid points for destiny

[Toa of Italy]

Personally, I believe Destiny can sometimes not be achieved and can also be changed. My theory is based on alternate universes.Now, I have sometimes heard a discussion on whether an alternate universe separates from the "Main" one (though personally I believe that no universe is a Main one and that the one where the storyline takes place is simply one we happen to be following) when a choice takes place or whether it has always existed. Greg's answer to a question I asked him a few years ago seems to suggest the former:

6) An alt universe forms as a result of a decision made in the core universe and can, in many respects, parallel the core universe. A pocket dimension, on the other hand, does not need to have any similarities to the core universe. In DC Comics terms, the 52 Earths are alt universes, while the Phantom Zone is a pocket dimension.

If my interpretation is correct, than the Kingdom Alternate Universe and the Core Universe where one until Matoro made his choice to save Mata Nui. But if this is so then Matoro's destiny wouldn't have been different in the two universes, simply because at the time they were merged together. So in the Core Universe he accomplished it and in the Kingdom Alternate Universe he didn't.The Kingdom also states that in that alternate universe Takanuva fulfilled his destiny by preventing the Makuta from migrating to Mata Nui (and therefore was able to become a Turaga by giving out his Toa power). However, this never happened, and will have no reason to happen, in the Core Universe, so Takanuva's destiny must be different.Ergo, Matoro's decision caused the universe to split in two, and this event also changed Takanuva's destiny in the Kingdom Alternate Universe.I also want to point out that we know only of some destinies that have been achieved (Makuta, the Toa Nuva, Matoro, possibly the rest of the Toa Mahri, the Toa Metru...). But there may have been countless other beings who we may or may not have heard of whose destiny was never achieved.The only thing I'm left wondering about (for now) is whether when a being fulfills his or her own destiny he/she is "assigned" a new one or not, and the same thing about people who do not achieve their destiny. Edited September 23, 2012 by Toa of Italy

[bonesiii]

Personally, I believe Destiny can sometimes not be achieved and can also be changed. My theory is based on alternate universes.Now, I have sometimes heard a discussion on whether an alternate universe separates from the "Main" one (though personally I believe that no universe is a Main one and that the one where the storyline takes place is simply one we happen to be following)

Just to be clear, it's confirmed they branch from the Core Dimension (hence the name); that's how alternate-choice universes always work, because the new branch is only made at the choice forks.You could fairly think of it as just two branches, and each one has its own branches, rather than a single Core, though. Except that it's simply canon that the one we follow is the Core Dimension. (But for fanfic / headcanon you need not keep that rule.)Anyways, it is confirmed that destiny only applies to the Core Dimension, since every choice fork has an alternate dimension for every possible alternate choice.Alternate dimensions, however, may have fully adaptive destiny as I originally proposed, in which the outcomes are changed by the program. But that does not happen in the Core Dimension (IMO this is merely because the writers simply choose to follow the one in which the destinies do get fulfilled in the end but along different-than-planned paths, simply for dramatic purposes, but you could make a case that there's something physics-wise beyond that that makes it the Core, an idea I play around with in my fanfics). Edited September 23, 2012 by bonesiii