[Update 10/17] Red Star Revelations

[Dual Cee]

Or she was revived and died again before finding lesovikk

[Chro]

That brings up another question that I don't believe had been answered- repeated revival. Is it possible? I don't see why not. A smart villain (or someone like an OOMN member) with teleportation powers could go kamikaze whenever they felt like it, as long as they had their wits about them (and didn't get incinerated or anything...). This scenario is assuming this being had figured everything out after dying once. Just an idea.

[Zidonaro]

Okay, I think I get it, however, I still have some questions.

 

Let's say that the Red Star actually works, and that some random Matoran died. When that Matoran is revived, is he going back to the MU at the same place, with the same body, memories, and stuff ? Or he is going to be "transformed" into aan entirely new being ?

 

Also, I think its important to discover why the RS malfunctioned.

 

Edited December 10, 2012 by jalar

[The Iron Toa]

BS01 lists Nikila as being revived in the Red Star. That makes absolutely no sense, though; Nikila and the rest of her team were killed 100,000 years ago, around 20,000 years before the Red Star malfunctioned. Thus, assuming her body was left intact to be teleported, she should be back in the Matoran Universe... which has its own hosts of problems; I find it hard to believe she couldn't have found Lesovikk in a span of 100,000 years (although I suppose something could have happened that prevented her from moving around). I hope Greg clears this up next chat.

 

Not just Nikila, either - there were six other Toa that died along with her. You'd think Lesovikk would have found at least one of them. Maybe the Zyglak destroyed their bodies, preventing any of them from being resurrected.

[Dual Cee]

 

BS01 lists Nikila as being revived in the Red Star. That makes absolutely no sense, though; Nikila and the rest of her team were killed 100,000 years ago, around 20,000 years before the Red Star malfunctioned. Thus, assuming her body was left intact to be teleported, she should be back in the Matoran Universe... which has its own hosts of problems; I find it hard to believe she couldn't have found Lesovikk in a span of 100,000 years (although I suppose something could have happened that prevented her from moving around). I hope Greg clears this up next chat.

Not just Nikila, either - there were six other Toa that died along with her. You'd think Lesovikk would have found at least one of them. Maybe the Zyglak destroyed their bodies, preventing any of them from being resurrected.

Thinking about the nature of the zyglak that sounds very logic?

[The Iron Toa]

Well, they do carry that disease that eats things up. Maybe Lesovikk's teammates' bodies were destroyed that way. Or maybe the Zyglak ate them, or cut them up into tiny pieces or something.

[toa kopaka4372]

Well, they do carry that disease that eats things up. Maybe Lesovikk's teammates' bodies were destroyed that way. Or maybe the Zyglak ate them, or cut them up into tiny pieces or something.

I think Greg Farshtey should go with an explanation like this. It'll solve any inconsistencies.

[Great Being #1]

Oh wow this stuff is pretty awesome though is there any original mystery from the early years of bionicle left now that the red star has been fully explained?

[Katuko]

 

Not just Nikila, either - there were six other Toa that died along with her. You'd think Lesovikk would have found at least one of them. Maybe the Zyglak destroyed their bodies, preventing any of them from being resurrected.

Thinking about the nature of the zyglak that sounds very logic?

 

Well, they do carry that disease that eats things up. Maybe Lesovikk's teammates' bodies were destroyed that way. Or maybe the Zyglak ate them, or cut them up into tiny pieces or something.

Them being dissolved via Zyglak disease might even be the part where Karzahni got his mask-generated future vision wrong; in his maddened state he could not recognize the difference between that and the effect an acid cloud might have.EDIT: Gah, fix the CSS for the code boxes already! Edited December 10, 2012 by Katuko

[toa kopaka4372]

 

 

Not just Nikila, either - there were six other Toa that died along with her. You'd think Lesovikk would have found at least one of them. Maybe the Zyglak destroyed their bodies, preventing any of them from being resurrected.

Thinking about the nature of the zyglak that sounds very logic?

 

Well, they do carry that disease that eats things up. Maybe Lesovikk's teammates' bodies were destroyed that way. Or maybe the Zyglak ate them, or cut them up into tiny pieces or something.

Them being dissolved via Zyglak disease might even be the part where Karzahni got his mask-generated future vision wrong; in his maddened state he could not recognize the difference between that and the effect an acid cloud might have.EDIT: Gah, fix the CSS for the code boxes already!

 

Good point! I hadn't thought of that.

[bonesiii]

That brings up another question that I don't believe had been answered- repeated revival. Is it possible? I don't see why not. A smart villain (or someone like an OOMN member) with teleportation powers could go kamikaze whenever they felt like it, as long as they had their wits about them (and didn't get incinerated or anything...). This scenario is assuming this being had figured everything out after dying once. Just an idea.

It should be possible, yeah. Of course, not many beings have teleportation powers. I can imagine a bad guy prior to the Sendback breaking figuring this out, and doing it several times, but then getting stuck up there and furious when the teleporter does break.

 

Of course, if someone actually had teleportation powers, there are more effective means to accomplish most goals while surviving.

 

Okay, I think I get it, however, I still have some questions.

 

Let's say that the Red Star actually works, and that some random Matoran died. When that Matoran is revived, is he going back to the MU at the same place, with the same body, memories, and stuff ? Or he is going to be "transformed" into aan entirely new being ?

 

Also, I think its important to discover why the RS malfunctioned.

 

1) We don't know if they go back to the exact same place, but the alternative makes no sense because the reason they're being revived in the first place is so that they can continue doing what they're supposed to be doing.

 

2) Yes, Greg confirmed they keep their memories. That's basically the whole point of this; otherwise they could just make an actually new being from scratch with the same effect.

 

Oh wow this stuff is pretty awesome though is there any original mystery from the early years of bionicle left now that the red star has been fully explained?

Well, I think basically just more detail about the origin, nature, current status, and goals of the Great Beings. We know some tantalizing tidbits, but most of it is still a mystery.

[Great Being #1]

Oh wow this stuff is pretty awesome though is there any original mystery from the early years of bionicle left now that the red star has been fully explained?

////////////

Well, I think basically just more detail about the origin, nature, current status, and goals of the Great Beings. We know some tantalizing tidbits, but most of it is still a mystery.

 

/////////

Well by my count the original mysteries were what/who is mata nui really, what is the red star and what does it do, where did the Toa Mata come from, who are teh great beings and what do they do. I feel like all of that has generally been answered enough to take away that mystery effect. It may be just me and my nostalgia of course ahahahah

 

What is there left that i am missing from some of the oldest and original mysteries?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Great Being #1

[The Iron Toa]

 

That brings up another question that I don't believe had been answered- repeated revival. Is it possible? I don't see why not. A smart villain (or someone like an OOMN member) with teleportation powers could go kamikaze whenever they felt like it, as long as they had their wits about them (and didn't get incinerated or anything...). This scenario is assuming this being had figured everything out after dying once. Just an idea.

It should be possible, yeah. Of course, not many beings have teleportation powers. I can imagine a bad guy prior to the Sendback breaking figuring this out, and doing it several times, but then getting stuck up there and furious when the teleporter does break.

 

Of course, if someone actually had teleportation powers, there are more effective means to accomplish most goals while surviving.

 

Back in the days when the star worked, I wonder if folks just learned to disintegrate the bodies they didn't want coming back. In that case, I imagine a lot of accident victims would be brought back, and not so much for those who died in war or were assassinated (unless their enemies weren't able to finish the job). Speaking of which, if MU inhabitants eat by turning their food directly into energy (when they're not getting it out of those power wells), doesn't that mean anyone that got eaten (completely) by a Rahi wouldn't come back?

 

 

2) Yes, Greg confirmed they keep their memories. That's basically the whole point of this; otherwise they could just make an actually new being from scratch with the same effect.

However, he did also say they would be disoriented from the ordeal of dying, being resurrected, and waking up in the star. They're still the same person brought back to life.

 

 

 

Oh wow this stuff is pretty awesome though is there any original mystery from the early years of bionicle left now that the red star has been fully explained?

 

I wouldn't say it's been fully explained. We don't know how it broke, and how long it took to pick up bodies, for instance.

[Chro]

Well by my count the original mysteries were what/who is mata nui really, what is the red star and what does it do, where did the Toa Mata come from, who are teh great beings and what do they do. I feel like all of that has generally been answered enough to take away that mystery effect. It may be just me and my nostalgia of course ahahahah

 

What is there left that i am missing from some of the oldest and original mysteries?

Well, we certainly know more now, but of course we don't know everything. As opposed to the big questions, now, it's more about the important why's and how's. The origin of the Mata is the only one which I'd say is completely known. There are still a few secrets about the Star, the Mata Nui robot's origin, and lots of other things, really.

So to sum it up, Iron Toa was right-

I wouldn't say it's been fully explained.

(Although he was referring to the Star, this easily applies to the entire Bionicle story! )

[Great Being #1]

Well yes i agree there is still many details to explain however i feel like enough was explained that all the things lost their mystique. I enjoy the fact that we are getting more information pretty much out of the blue this long after its been over but i felt like certain things were better off not being explained. Probably just me and a certain nostalgia about the red star and the olden bionicle days

Edited December 11, 2012 by Great Being #1

[Chro]

No, I definitely agree. But part of what's great about mystery is wanting to know what the answers are, and then once the answers are found the mystery dissipates. So I guess we've got to find a middle ground of knowing and letting the fantastic story be.

 

EDIT: Woo, five hundred.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Chro

[Great Being #1]

No, I definitely agree. But part of what's great about mystery is wanting to know what the answers are, and then once the answers are found the mystery dissipates. So I guess we've got to find a middle ground of knowing and letting the fantastic story be.

 

EDIT: Woo, five hundred.

/////

Yeah that's why i though about leaving the red star alone but i guess we can still say the GB's are still mysterious enough even with all the info on them so i'll hold on to that one

[toa kopaka4372]

I found something very important in one of the 2006 comics. While Hakann and Jaller are fighting, trading insults, Jaller said something like this (not the direct quote, but you'll get the gist of it): "I've seen Rahi that have been dead for a month that look better than you do now."

 

This essentially confirms that the corpses of Rahi remain at least a month after death. I'd assume other corpses stay the same amount of time.

 

The problem with this though, is that it seems Matoran and the rest of the MU do need to bury their dead; I don't think they'd leave dead bodies lying around. Also, doesn't this mean most bodies would be decayed by the time they'd be teleported? This likely does minimize chances for revival more, because a lot of bodies could become brittle and old and end up being destroyed before revival. An example is when Mazeka slid into a dead Visorak corpse in Reign of Shadows, which crumbled into powder as soon as he touched it.

[Dual Cee]

Maybe the rahi are teleported later than the matoran because we saw lhikahn teleporting directly

[toa kopaka4372]

Maybe the rahi are teleported later than the matoran because we saw lhikahn teleporting directly

No, we didn't actually see that. The Toa Metru simply left Lhikan behind. He was gone when they returned, but we don't know how long it took them to get back.

[Dual Cee]

Oh I only know the comics and the films so that makes it even more mysterious a body that dissapears after time

[Cratak]

I found something very important in one of the 2006 comics. While Hakann and Jaller are fighting, trading insults, Jaller said something like this (not the direct quote, but you'll get the gist of it): "I've seen Rahi that have been dead for a month that look better than you do now."

 

This essentially confirms that the corpses of Rahi remain at least a month after death. I'd assume other corpses stay the same amount of time.

 

The problem with this though, is that it seems Matoran and the rest of the MU do need to bury their dead; I don't think they'd leave dead bodies lying around. Also, doesn't this mean most bodies would be decayed by the time they'd be teleported? This likely does minimize chances for revival more, because a lot of bodies could become brittle and old and end up being destroyed before revival. An example is when Mazeka slid into a dead Visorak corpse in Reign of Shadows, which crumbled into powder as soon as he touched it.

////////

 

I think his comment might have been just to insult the Piraka. Also, if it wasn't, that might have been after the Red Star was full.

[bonesiii]

Technically that Rahi quote doesn't rule out sapient beings being teleported up faster. If there's just one teleporter, considering Rahi might be dying fairly often, and if the teleporter has to wait a while to cool/recharge, etc. (explaining a wait time in general), then sapient beings could always be given a higher priority of a few days, while Rahi pushed to the end of the list could add up to about a month. Esp. in times of disaster.

[Dual Cee]

Technically that Rahi quote doesn't rule out sapient beings being teleported up faster. If there's just one teleporter, considering Rahi might be dying fairly often, and if the teleporter has to wait a while to cool/recharge, etc. (explaining a wait time in general), then sapient beings could always be given a higher priority of a few days, while Rahi pushed to the end of the list could add up to about a month. Esp. in times of disaster.

 

 

Exactly my idea...

 

Perfectly explained like you always do. That explaines the rotten Rahi in the Barakii foretress

[toa kopaka4372]

Technically that Rahi quote doesn't rule out sapient beings being teleported up faster. If there's just one teleporter, considering Rahi might be dying fairly often, and if the teleporter has to wait a while to cool/recharge, etc. (explaining a wait time in general), then sapient beings could always be given a higher priority of a few days, while Rahi pushed to the end of the list could add up to about a month. Esp. in times of disaster.

This is a very plausible idea that could work. It could pretty much explain almost all the inconsistencies regarding the corpses. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if a corpse left behind for too long might eventually crumble to dust or becoming incapable of being fixed, so that could have potentially minimized the revival rate.

 

Do we know what happened to Jaller's original body? Was it teleported, or did the Matoran just leave it behind?

[Chro]

Do we know what happened to Jaller's original body? Was it teleported, or did the Matoran just leave it behind?

I assume you're referring to his revival by Takutanuva. I don't know... I always just assumed that it was just kinda turned into energy or something, like the opposite of how he was revived. Or maybe when he was revived, it wasn't forming a new body, but really teleporting the 'old' body back to the mask, in addition to bringing him back to life. We still don't know exactly what Takutanuva could do, I think, right?Then again, I haven't actually watched that for years.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Chro

[toa kopaka4372]

 

Do we know what happened to Jaller's original body? Was it teleported, or did the Matoran just leave it behind?

I assume you're referring to his revival by Takutanuva. I don't know... I always just assumed that it was just kinda turned into energy or something, like the opposite of how he was revived. Or maybe when he was revived, it wasn't forming a new body, but really teleporting the 'old' body back to the mask, in addition to bringing him back to life. We still don't know exactly what Takutanuva could do, I think, right?Then again, I haven't actually watched that for years.

 

I was wondering if his body was teleported. Let's hope not; we don't need two Jallers around.

 

It seemed to be that Takutanuva made a new body for Jaller, but I guess he could've easily teleported Jaller's original one over.

[bonesiii]

Greg said that Takutanuva did what the RS normally does, so that strongly implies he teleported his earlier body there and healed it.

[Katuko]

Technically that Rahi quote doesn't rule out sapient beings being teleported up faster. If there's just one teleporter, considering Rahi might be dying fairly often, and if the teleporter has to wait a while to cool/recharge, etc. (explaining a wait time in general), then sapient beings could always be given a higher priority of a few days, while Rahi pushed to the end of the list could add up to about a month. Esp. in times of disaster.

If we assume a recharge period for the teleporter, perhaps it broke due to one of the larger wars (or the Cataclysm) overloading it?

[bonesiii]

 

Technically that Rahi quote doesn't rule out sapient beings being teleported up faster. If there's just one teleporter, considering Rahi might be dying fairly often, and if the teleporter has to wait a while to cool/recharge, etc. (explaining a wait time in general), then sapient beings could always be given a higher priority of a few days, while Rahi pushed to the end of the list could add up to about a month. Esp. in times of disaster.

If we assume a recharge period for the teleporter, perhaps it broke due to one of the larger wars (or the Cataclysm) overloading it?

 

Keep in mind there's clearly two teleporters. I was talking about the "Bringup" one that is still working (or was during 2004 plot because Lhikan is confirmed revived).

 

Maybe the same idea did break the Sendback teleporter, though.

[Baron Von Nebula]

 

 

 

Not just Nikila, either - there were six other Toa that died along with her. You'd think Lesovikk would have found at least one of them. Maybe the Zyglak destroyed their bodies, preventing any of them from being resurrected.

Thinking about the nature of the zyglak that sounds very logic?

 

Well, they do carry that disease that eats things up. Maybe Lesovikk's teammates' bodies were destroyed that way. Or maybe the Zyglak ate them, or cut them up into tiny pieces or something.

Them being dissolved via Zyglak disease might even be the part where Karzahni got his mask-generated future vision wrong; in his maddened state he could not recognize the difference between that and the effect an acid cloud might have.EDIT: Gah, fix the CSS for the code boxes already!

 

Good point! I hadn't thought of that.

 

 

In addition, Zyglak have spears and knives with Disintegration powers. If Lesovikk's teammates were hit by these, they wouldn't be able to be repaired.

[toa kopaka4372]

 

 

 

 

Not just Nikila, either - there were six other Toa that died along with her. You'd think Lesovikk would have found at least one of them. Maybe the Zyglak destroyed their bodies, preventing any of them from being resurrected.

Thinking about the nature of the zyglak that sounds very logic?

 

Well, they do carry that disease that eats things up. Maybe Lesovikk's teammates' bodies were destroyed that way. Or maybe the Zyglak ate them, or cut them up into tiny pieces or something.

Them being dissolved via Zyglak disease might even be the part where Karzahni got his mask-generated future vision wrong; in his maddened state he could not recognize the difference between that and the effect an acid cloud might have.EDIT: Gah, fix the CSS for the code boxes already!

 

Good point! I hadn't thought of that.

 

 

In addition, Zyglak have spears and knives with Disintegration powers. If Lesovikk's teammates were hit by these, they wouldn't be able to be repaired.

 

That makes it highly probable that his team was disintegrated by those kinds of weapons, so the chance that his team was revived is probably very low at this point.

[The Legendary TNT]

I hope no one mentioned this because then I will look silly.

 

So I was reading Dwellers in Darkness last night when I realized that there were 2 clear references to burial in it. The first one in chapter 1, I believe, is when TSO says that if the Toa Hagah don't leave Xia, they might leave just enough to bury. Also there is the comment Jaller makes in a later chapter that he had never seen anyone seal their own tomb before.

 

Something else I wanted to bring up, memorial stones! I always thought they were basically tomb stones, but if MU inhabitants don't usually get buried, is it just a stone to commemorate their life?

[toa kopaka4372]

I hope no one mentioned this because then I will look silly.

 

So I was reading Dwellers in Darkness last night when I realized that there were 2 clear references to burial in it. The first one in chapter 1, I believe, is when TSO says that if the Toa Hagah don't leave Xia, they might leave just enough to bury. Also there is the comment Jaller makes in a later chapter that he had never seen anyone seal their own tomb before.

 

Something else I wanted to bring up, memorial stones! I always thought they were basically tomb stones, but if MU inhabitants don't usually get buried, is it just a stone to commemorate their life?

Makes sense, as I already found a mention of burial in Challenge of the Hordika before. I wonder how Greg would explain this?

 

I think I understand what The Iron Toa meant a page back when he said that the issue with the Red Star reveal is it's lack of evidence in the story. It's true there was some foreshadowing, but unlike other twists in BIONICLE, it doesn't fit in perfectly with the previously established canon. We've only had half of our questions regarding it answered since the reveal, and there's so much more that needs to be clarified. I don't think this level of explanation for it should be necessary.

 

I generally don't mind the twist, but part's of it still irk me (like Lhikan's revival).

 

Also, has anyone thought of how does this affect Matoro's sacrifice? If he hadn't sacrificed himself and everyone died, would they have simply been revived? I sincerely hope not; Greg went out of his way to make sure Matoro was not revived on the Red Star, so I'd like to think he preserved the validity of his sacrifice. Also, the fact that the Great Beings created the Ignika in the first place to save the universe definitely suggests the Red Star couldn't have saved the inhabitants.

[Dual Cee]

Of course not If the Universe itself dies the Red star won't work either.

[toa kopaka4372]

Of course not If the Universe itself dies the Red star won't work either.

Well, in that case, the Red Star isn't working right now, right? After all, the MU is currently destroyed.

 

Unfortunately, we don't know that for sure yet.

[Dual Cee]

 

Of course not If the Universe itself dies the Red star won't work either.

Well, in that case, the Red Star isn't working right now, right? After all, the MU is currently destroyed.

 

Unfortunately, we don't know that for sure yet.

 

 

 

Yes we do , the red star can only revive beings inside the MU, thats sure. So when there is no MU left no revival.

[toa kopaka4372]

 

 

Of course not If the Universe itself dies the Red star won't work either.

Well, in that case, the Red Star isn't working right now, right? After all, the MU is currently destroyed.

 

Unfortunately, we don't know that for sure yet.

 

 

 

Yes we do , the red star can only revive beings inside the MU, thats sure. So when there is no MU left no revival.

 

Actually, the recent Greg answers open up the possibility that revival is possible outside of the MU. We simply don't know for sure.

Edited December 22, 2012 by toa kopaka4372

[Dual Cee]

 

 

 

Of course not If the Universe itself dies the Red star won't work either.

Well, in that case, the Red Star isn't working right now, right? After all, the MU is currently destroyed.

 

Unfortunately, we don't know that for sure yet.

 

 

 

Yes we do , the red star can only revive beings inside the MU, thats sure. So when there is no MU left no revival.

 

Actually, the recent Greg answers open up the possibility that revival is possible outside of the MU. We simply don't know for sure.

 

 

 

What relevation do you exactly mean?

[toa kopaka4372]

bonesii covered this pretty well in a different topic, so I'm quoting his post from there:

 

 

 

 

Well, we MIGHT have an answer on that but it's confusingly worded, so I had to extrapolate it from several questions logically.

 

First:

 

Quote

Quote

Can the Red Star still teleport the dead MU inhabitants to it now that the MU is effectively destroyed, and if not, how was it able to reach the Matoran in canisters in Voya Nui to turn them into the Toa Inika?

It can't teleport right now, because the system is broken. As for the Inika, that wasn't teleportation at work, that was electrical discharge.

This implies that nobody is being revived at all but I do NOT think that's what Greg meant. It seems the Inika part of the question may have confused him as to what the first part was asking, and he meant that the Sendback teleporter is broken. Here's some more that seems to clarify things:

 

Quote

Quote

How long ago was the Red Star broken? From the start, or was it due to the Great Cataclysm?

It stopped working quite a while before the events of Mystery of Metru Nui, which is why no one was looking around for Lhikan to come back.

And this:

 

Quote

Can you name anyone other than Mavrah who [is] alive in the Red Star?

Lhikan

Basically, anyone whose body was not disintegrated would be there.So no Matoro, no Brotherhood members, nobody who had no body left

So, by "the system is broken", Greg may mean just the Sendback teleporter. As far as I know he has not clearly said that the system had a second failure ever.

 

So this would seem to say that anybody whose body is intact is still being revived, anywhere. Add to that this answer:

 

 

Quote

Quote

As well as the fact that he was on Spherus Magna and the RS could not have brought him back anyways?

Well, we don't know that.The RS is keyed in to MU inhabitants.We don't know the fact that he was no longer in the MU would have made a difference. Might have made a difference to his being sent back ...But the RS isn't sending anyone back now anyway.

 

Which was in the context of this:

 

 

 

Quote

Quote

Okay, now what about the mental image of the Red Star that Tren Krom projected right before his death?

TK was killed by a Great Being. The RS image served two purposes -- to TK, it symbolized the Great Beings, and ..it was a bit of irony .. as a completely organic being, the RS could not bring him back

 

 

Therefore, Greg's reasoning as to why TK is not on the Red Star is that he's organic, and possibly his body was too destroyed anyways.

 

As for Karzahni and the victims in the fortress, it's still confusing. Karzahni clearly has a body left, but maybe his brain is smashed. Greg seems to say that any body left at all; "something to work with" is good enough to get revived (but with memories? Maybe not if your brain is ruined?) -- yet, he also said that Velika is "cleaning house".

 

Translation: I'm still confused.