Ussanui

[fishers64]

The "They will not leave!" line has a crowd fleeing, and the scene where Takutanuva opens the door has a crowd streaming past.

[bonesiii]

But the Matoran had to go down eventually to return to Metru Nui.

After going back up to build boats. It isn't crucial (far as I know) that they go down during MOL.

 

 

 

Not to mention that she goes back down again with every single Matoran of the island. I would imagine not ALL of them are experts at rock climbing.

 

You're incorrect on the first bit. Only the Toa and Turaga are shown with Hahli, and later Jaller when he's resurrected. The Matoran population are left on the surface.

 

No, in official canon, all Matoran go. This is the way it is portrayed in the novel. It would have been the case in the movie as well, but the creators were too lazy to animate a gigantic crowd of Matoran all over Mangaia.

 

So in the story, all Matoran went down but in the movie they just didn't show it (which has always bothered me).

So now I sit corrected again lol (apparently?). I'm wondering why he had them all go down. Seems inefficient. Maybe just so they'd all see what happened so they'd know it's real.

 

Okay, let's assume Hahli had some rock climbing ability. Do you think that's enough to ascend up a very long tunnel in which one mistake would be immediately fatal and it is impossible to stop for rest?

Well, we're given the portrayal that she apparently had to, so I don't see a choice (whether or not she was trained in it as a precaution, she must have been good enough at it to reach it). Unless we just assume that entirely vertical stretch is non-canon? I wonder, though, if Matoran fingers can maybe lock into place to rest for a while. They have metal components which perhaps could do that if designed right. And often portrayed with pistons being involved.

 

Honestly, if I was her and I got to that point, knowing Pohatu is up there, I'd probably shout for him to make a staircase. (Who knows if her voice would carry well enough or be heard by anyone over their talking though.)

What reason would there be to scale them?

To get to the other side. I mean who knows? The point is that it's a precaution. Basically, for a situation that could be unforeseeable. Such as the situation Hahli was in.

 

Another possibility is one Matoran is dragged away by a Rahi able to get over the cliffs but gets free later and must return. All kinds of possibilities.

 

All travel to and from Ga-Koro is done by boat. If you really needed to get past them, you'd use the waterfall cave that leads through them.

Unless dangerous Rahi were blocking that way. If it's the only route available you go for it. Also, presumably useful fruit and vegetables could have grown atop the cliff so they may have regularly climbed to it. (Madu for example, perhaps.)

 

Might even have used those very cliffs as the practice site for the skill learning I'm talking about, in fact. Sand at the bottom would make it ideal for that if you slip, since it's not that high.

 

Well, I mean in the context of humans in 'our' condition of having to survive on this planet, not anything about the very first humans ever or how they came to exist. I think we can agree that these early humans, before agriculture, would've climbed trees to reach fruit. (I admit they didn't dwell in them, though).

Ah, I see. Right. And some might have dwelled in trees. Anywho.

 

You still raise good points about the entire population being there. *is still confused*

 

Edit:

 

The "They will not leave!" line has a crowd fleeing, and the scene where Takutanuva opens the door has a crowd streaming past.

Just rewatched the latter part; that doesn't look like a crowd to me. A handful of Matoran, Turaga, and the Toa, yes, but the entire population definitely not. If they were there, they must have stayed behind the door. (According to movie portrayal.) Didn't check earlier scene though; not sure where that would be.

 

Edit2: Found that scene. All I could see is the Toa and Turaga there. No crowd. Unless we're talking book portrayal?

Edited May 23, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

Okay, I stand corrected. Looks like I'm going Greg hunting.

[ToaKapura1234]

Also, how did the Matoran get back through the big door to go build their boats? Didn't it slam shut and crush Takutanuva? Or am I remembering wrong here?

[bonesiii]

Also, how did the Matoran get back through the big door to go build their boats? Didn't it slam shut and crush Takutanuva? Or am I remembering wrong here?

It crumbled upon impact. Although some dispute this; if not, Pohatu was there to destroy it. What we know is that when the Piraka arrived it was rubble.

[Sir Kohran]

 

I'm wondering why he had them all go down. Seems inefficient.

 

And risky. If the Makuta had the Matoran in his range, they'd be a powerful tool with which to blackmail the Toa and Turaga. Or if the lair caved in, they'd all die.

 

 

Well, we're given the portrayal that she apparently had to, so I don't see a choice (whether or not she was trained in it as a precaution, she must have been good enough at it to reach it).

 

I simply don't find it believable that Hahli could apply a skill she would at best only have a mild ability with to an extremely long challenge without ever stopping or making a single mistake.

 

 

Honestly, if I was her and I got to that point, knowing Pohatu is up there, I'd probably shout for him to make a staircase.

 

That'd be the logical thing to try, though there's nothing to indicate that anyone helped bring her up.

 

 

Unless dangerous Rahi were blocking that way.

 

Then you'd sail or swim out.

 

 

Also, presumably useful fruit and vegetables could have grown atop the cliff so they may have regularly climbed to it.

 

Now you touch on another unanswered matter. Do Matoran need a steady food supply?

[bonesiii]

I thought that was answered. In Metru Nui they had special machines they'd recharge annually with, but on Mata Nui they did need to eat food, presumably daily. But some things like Madu Cabolo had other uses too.

 

Another thing that confuses me although I'm now getting fairly off-topic is whether Rahi (like Ruki fish) could reproduce. If not they couldn't rely on that as their primary diet, but plants can. (And if they can, how?) It seems unlikely to me that around 200+ Matoran could have survived on seafood alone, or would have wanted to with other plants right there.

 

Plus they probably exported to Po-Koro and others besides Le that didn't have such ready access to food sources.

 

 

I need to correct something -- not sure climbing down the cliffs would actually be a problem. Depending on how high they were. They might be able to jump that. But to go up they'd need to climb. Of course, if they did that often enough they could just carve stairs into it eventually. Regardless, it has no bearing on my theory since I'm talking about precautionary training for unforeseeable circumstances.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Too... much... text...

 

The Makuta DID use the Matoran. He destroyed the gateway back above, trapping the Matoran. The Matoran coming down was all a big sentimental move, I think. Takanuva was about to pit his light against Makuta and felt it was such a solemn moment everyone should see.

 

I'm pretty sure the original intention was also that the gateway was the ONLY way between Metru Nui and Mata Nui, thus making it important that everyone went through it. This was changed because Greg needed to do prolouges and epilogues for the Adventures books and having them in a giant cave would be uninteresting. Plus, they needed to get their stuff from above.

 

Pohatu helping Hahli get up would be a good way to explain something that is clearly impossible or illogical otherwise. The filmmakers didn't pay much attention to this kind of stuff so they basically ignored such things to make a fast-paced movie. We, the Bionicle nerds, can make up our own solutions for these issues if the creators did not.

[Katuko]

Not to mention that she goes back down again with every single Matoran of the island. I would imagine not ALL of them are experts at rock climbing.

Hewkii (and probaly most of the Po-Matoran) lived in a desert for most of their time on Mata Nui, and thus did not display any ability to swim. I'd imagine the same would hold true for Ga-Matoran; there is no incentive to learn rock-climbing when you spend 1000 years protecting your fishing village from Rahi attacks.

Well, we're given the portrayal that she apparently had to, so I don't see a choice (whether or not she was trained in it as a precaution, she must have been good enough at it to reach it). Unless we just assume that entirely vertical stretch is non-canon? I wonder, though, if Matoran fingers can maybe lock into place to rest for a while. They have metal components which perhaps could do that if designed right. And often portrayed with pistons being involved.

The vertical stretch pretty much has to be canon. Both in MNOG and MoL, the entrance is a tunnel below the Kini. The Toa Mata stood on the platform and went directly downwards, while Takanuva was clearly shown in a vertical tunnel. In both cases, they then proceeded mostly horizontally until they reached the lair. This fits with Takua's entrance as well, where he used the pillar elevator right inside the outer shell of the MU. In this case, the Onu-Matoran had already dug deep enough to need a different elevator to reach the bottom of the mine (and the impenetrable layer).Getting the Matoran down is not a problem. The Toa have powers that can easily allow several people access. Kopaka, for example, easily created a staircase of ice in order to leave the Bohrok nest after the Kal were defeated; and I believe stone would be even easier to use. Shared Miru powers could also stop anyone from falling.The problem is Hahli getting out, especially with that huge (for her) gap between the ceiling and the bottom of the tunnel. For all we know, though, there might even have been an elevator platform similar to the one found in Onu-Wahi. It would make some sense to allow safe passage when Kini-Nui is the only supposed exit that is not covered by rock while the MU robot is camouflaged. On the other hand, keeping anything but flyers from passing might be a good incentive too.I'm not sure what the books say about how the Toa Mata entered. In the MNOG, the ground simply gives way beneath them, and they fall. A CGI animation shows the top covering of the Suva in the middle opening instead, revealing something like the the MoL passage (for which they probably used Kanohi Miru). If the books confirm one or the other, that would be nice.

[Sir Kohran]

 

The Matoran coming down was all a big sentimental move, I think. Takanuva was about to pit his light against Makuta and felt it was such a solemn moment everyone should see.

 

But for that, all the Matoran across the island would need to be contacted and assembled at Kini-Nui, then brought underground and marched through the dark into the lair. Takanuva would have to avoid being destroyed by Makuta for many hours, if not whole days.

 

This is why I think the movie's portrayal is correct and it was just the Toa and Turaga present.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the original intention was also that the gateway was the ONLY way between Metru Nui and Mata Nui, thus making it important that everyone went through it.

 

Is there any other route between them? Also, why does Takutanuva have to open it? And why does everyone have to charge through when it only leads to the edge of a large ocean? (ie, a dead end)

 

 

This was changed because Greg needed to do prolouges and epilogues for the Adventures books and having them in a giant cave would be uninteresting. Plus, they needed to get their stuff from above.

 

Comic 15, released in November 03 (two months after the movie), shows the Toa and Turaga back on the surface after the movie's events. If it was ever thought that there was no way back once the gateway crashed down, that was overturned pretty quickly.

 

 

Hewkii (and probaly most of the Po-Matoran) lived in a desert for most of their time on Mata Nui, and thus did not display any ability to swim. I'd imagine the same would hold true for Ga-Matoran; there is no incentive to learn rock-climbing when you spend 1000 years protecting your fishing village from Rahi attacks.

 

Basically what I was getting at. The Ga-Matoran way of life revolves around the sea, not hard land.

 

 

It would make some sense to allow safe passage when Kini-Nui is the only supposed exit that is not covered by rock while the MU robot is camouflaged. On the other hand, keeping anything but flyers from passing might be a good incentive too.

 

It'd help if we knew who or what made the tunnel/caves between Kini-Nui, Mangaia, and the Metru Nui dome, and whether they'd have any reason to want people going up or down.

[Makuta Matata]

There was probably one way in, but an easier way out that Halhi found. I guess she just improvised.

[IsHARI]

maybe she used the way takua used in the end of mnog... or she just had pohatu do the staircase thing or someone threw her a rope, maybe even nuparu made an elevator from the leftover rahkshi parts

[Toatapio Nuva]

 

The Matoran coming down was all a big sentimental move, I think. Takanuva was about to pit his light against Makuta and felt it was such a solemn moment everyone should see.

 

But for that, all the Matoran across the island would need to be contacted and assembled at Kini-Nui, then brought underground and marched through the dark into the lair. Takanuva would have to avoid being destroyed by Makuta for many hours, if not whole days.

 

This is why I think the movie's portrayal is correct and it was just the Toa and Turaga present.

 

 

>I'm pretty sure the original intention was also that the gateway was the ONLY way between Metru Nui and Mata Nui, thus making it important that everyone went through it.

 

Is there any other route between them? Also, why does Takutanuva have to open it? And why does everyone have to charge through when it only leads to the edge of a large ocean? (ie, a dead end)

 

 

This was changed because Greg needed to do prolouges and epilogues for the Adventures books and having them in a giant cave would be uninteresting. Plus, they needed to get their stuff from above.

 

Comic 15, released in November 03 (two months after the movie), shows the Toa and Turaga back on the surface after the movie's events. If it was ever thought that there was no way back once the gateway crashed down, that was overturned pretty quickly.

 

Before Takanuva goes into Mangaia for the first time, he says "I have but one destiny. Yours lie with the Turaga and the Matoran. Gather them and wait for my return."

 

The Toa Nuva gathered the Turaga and Matoran at that stage to assemble at the Kini-Nui. Then Hahli does her amazing athletic performance and gives her speech. All the Matoran hear that. Then they go down into Mangaia.

 

In the novel, it's clearly described how the Matoran filled the surrounding cliffs of the temple as they assembled and as they listened to Hahli's speech. It leaves no room for interpretation, really.

 

The ocean was not a dead end. There they discovered Metru Nui. Another interesting note about the novel is that no silver sea is mentioned. Instead, the Matoran and Takanuva stand on a ledge and when Takanuva illuminates the area, they spot Metru Nui underneath them, filling the entire cavern with no sea anywhere. This was probably due to the early design of Metru Nui and Hapka didn't know about the new one.

 

And I was probably wrong about not having other routes originally, or it was scrapped quickly.

[Sir Kohran]

 

maybe she used the way takua used in the end of mnog

 

Not sure whether you mean the Onu-Wahi plummet or the teleporter in the Bohrok nest, but neither brings you to anywhere near Kini-Nui.

 

 

Before Takanuva goes into Mangaia for the first time, he says "I have but one destiny. Yours lie with the Turaga and the Matoran. Gather them and wait for my return."

 

Good point; I didn't notice that.

 

 

The Toa Nuva gathered the Turaga and Matoran at that stage to assemble at the Kini-Nui. Then Hahli does her amazing athletic performance and gives her speech.

 

It wouldn't have taken long for the Toa to return to their villages, but it would have for all the Matoran to travel inland. Not just because of the distance, but also the often rough terrain. However long it took Hahli to get back up to the surface, I think she would've been at Kini-Nui before all the Matoran were.

 

 

In the novel, it's clearly described how the Matoran filled the surrounding cliffs of the temple as they assembled and as they listened to Hahli's speech. It leaves no room for interpretation, really.

 

Then I can only assume the filmmakers were uninformed, or forgetful, or lazy.

 

 

The ocean was not a dead end. There they discovered Metru Nui.

 

It was a dead end in that none of them apart from Gali and perhaps Lewa could cross it. They went through the gateway, reached the edge of the sea, then turned back and went up to Mata Nui. Making the whole running desperately through the gateway seem a bit pointless.

 

Metru Nui was only discovered from the Toa and Matoran's perspective. The Turaga already knew it was there.

[bonesiii]

Re: swimming -- I always thought it was implied that stone-associated characters tend to "sink like rocks" -- like, they're really, really bad at it and maybe naturally heavier.

 

In any event, we do have evidence of one Ga-Matoran rock climbing since justifying that is what we're discussing. One scene of that, versus one scene of Po-Matoran not swimming (though they were taught later). Some villages could have neglected some skills based on strong dislikes of them, but I see no reason that Ga-Matoran would inherently neglect the basic idea of rock climbing considering they lived on a beach surrounded by cliffs. They even built a giant mask statue into a cliff (well, somebody did anyways -- it also occurs to me that somebody would likely periodically clean that off of plant matter accumulation -- maybe Hahli herself).

 

Also, the Ga-climbing scene is movie, versus an online animation and I think a Hapka book reference with Pohatu. So there's that to factor.

 

 

 

Another thing to consider is that, like you said, the island had rough terrain, and some were occasionally sent to visit others (including for Kolhii). One of the mini-comics portrayed a small group of Matoran (from multiple Koro I think) traveling across land. That would have a high likelihood of involving some minor rock climbing and a somewhat high likelihood of steeper obstacles.

 

Further, Hahli was portrayed as a chores-oriented Matoran from the get-go and I think that included gathering plant material. Realistically the ones in the game that grew back instantly probably wouldn't, so she might have chosen to learn the skill of rock climbing as a shortcut to the plants atop those cliffs (the waterfall cave route would be quite out of the way and IMO therefore much more dangerous to venture out alone through; if there was trouble atop the cliffs a shout could bring help, but probably not after coming out into the forest far away at the end of the tunnel, esp. considering the noisy falls).

 

 

 

Toatapio, do you mean that the book actually implies there's no sea? Or just doesn't happen to mention it? It's the novelization of the movie and the movie shows it so implying or stating it was all land would be rather strange. Anyways, clearly the sea is canon so I suppose it doesn't matter, just curious.

 

 

 

Re: ways down -- there might be others since the Bohrok had multiple exits and some route of transport connected to backup nests beneath Metru Nui, but not sure if those actually used separate tunnels or if they would also go through Mangai.

Edited May 24, 2013 by bonesiii

[boston100]

It was 2 guide him

[Toatapio Nuva]

Toatapio, do you mean that the book actually implies there's no sea? Or just doesn't happen to mention it? It's the novelization of the movie and the movie shows it so implying or stating it was all land would be rather strange. Anyways, clearly the sea is canon so I suppose it doesn't matter, just curious.

 

I don't have the novel with me now unfortunately (it would really help to be able to give quotes from it) but it says something like.

 

The Mask of Light glowed brightly and suddenly the entire cavern where the Matoran were standing was illuminated. As it did, they gasped is shock. Below the ledge they were standing on multiple towers and tubes could be seen. Points of light were flashing around. The entire cavern so large it stretched as far south and east and west that it was impossible to see the other side.

 

"This is it", Takanuva thought. "We are going to found out where we came from. Who we are. Our Destiny."

 

That should be really close to how it is described. Not literal, but the most important points from the novel. There was no mention of a sea and to me it appeared as the whole cavern was filled with the city. Strangely though, the novel doesn't mention it as a city, just a "lot of towers, lights" etc.

[fishers64]

FTR:

2.) Takanuza tells Hahli to get the Matorn, but she gets the Toa and Turaga, is there a reason? The Matoran came too. You just didn't see them, because it wasn't necessary to the story to show them all. 14.)Only the Toa and Turaga were seen at the end going to the tunnels.Was it meant to represent the hundreds of Matoran on the island, or was Hahli the only Matoran to go down there? No, all the Matoran went down. 10. In MoL, I saw six Turaga, six Toa and Jaller and Hahli plus Takanuva going through the door to Metru Nui. What happens to the other Matoran? They all came, we just didn't show all of them.

Hmm...

 

Hahli ran through the tunnels as fast as she could, still touching Jaller's mask. The thought of her fallen friend gave strength to her legs and courage to her heart. Up ahead, she saw a pinprick of daylight. A moment later she burst out of the crater of the ruined Suva dome into the main temple area at Kini-Nui... The entire population of the island was gathered behind them on the hillsides surrounding the temple, waiting to hear word from the Toa of Light. [...] She climbed out of the hole.

There you go, bones. The novel is a bit fuzzy, but even it has Hahli climbing. And I can confirm that the sea isn't mentioned in the novelisation.

The chamber at the bottom of the cliff was indescribably huge - it stretched further than the eye could see. Strange structures dotted the landscape, and flashes of energy danced here and there. Takanuva nodded as he surveyed...

*goes back to Greg hunting*

[Athmos]

The chamber at the bottom of the cliff was indescribably huge - it stretched further than the eye could see. Strange structures dotted the landscape, and flashes of energy danced here and there. Takanuva nodded as he surveyed...

This quote here makes me think that they actually were above the dome of Metru Nui, looking down on it. Like a window in the sky.

Hahli ran through the tunnels as fast as she could, still touching Jaller's mask. The thought of her fallen friend gave strength to her legs and courage to her heart. Up ahead, she saw a pinprick of daylight. A moment later she burst out of the crater of the ruined Suva dome into the main temple area at Kini-Nui... The entire population of the island was gathered behind them on the hillsides surrounding the temple, waiting to hear word from the Toa of Light. [...] She climbed out of the hole.

 

 

Here, it says she climbed out, sure. But I'm still wondering how she got up to the tunnel. I mean the movie showed it as a vertical drop, with a good 15 - 20 feet from the ground, so how did she get up to it to start climbing? That's what I really want to know.Unless there was a secondary tunnel that she took that led her up more, directly to the tunnel to climb up, then the rest of the Matoran and Toa took that path as well?

 

 

EDIT: Dang quote tags, messing stuff up.

Edited May 24, 2013 by thebeggerpie

[avak5]

Also, for Hahli, is it possible that she just climbed out of the "Rahkshi exit"? After all, the Rahkshi probably would have to to make handholds and footholds to climb out, unless Rahkshi staffs are innately magnetic.

Um, Rahskhi could fly.

[bonesiii]

Here, it says she climbed out, sure. But I'm still wondering how she got up to the tunnel. I mean the movie showed it as a vertical drop, with a good 15 - 20 feet from the ground, so how did she get up to it to start climbing? That's what I really want to know.

Well, I mentioned earlier that she might have gathered loose stones and stacked them to climb up to the lowest part of it. (And this just wouldn't have been mentioned -- or thought of -- in the story).

 

 

"Below" is odd wording with the city sighting, but technically it was a lower altitude (or the ground level of most of it was, anyways), so it technically works. But they definitely were not close to the roof of the dome.

[Katuko]

Hahli ran through the tunnels as fast as she could, still touching Jaller's mask. The thought of her fallen friend gave strength to her legs and courage to her heart. Up ahead, she saw a pinprick of daylight.A moment later she burst out of the crater of the ruined Suva dome into the main temple area at Kini-Nui...

So she was running towards the exit, saw a pin-prick of daylight... and "a moment" later, she's out of the crater. How does that fit with any climbing? Unless she's a real pro at scaling rock/metal tubes that are hundreds of feet long, I just don't see the time frame fitting here.

[bonesiii]

The nice thing about the word "moment" is that it has no actual definition in terms of measurable time. True it usually implies not much time, but I think we can safely disregard that here, unless we reinterpret the opening itself.

[fishers64]

 

Hahli ran through the tunnels as fast as she could, still touching Jaller's mask. The thought of her fallen friend gave strength to her legs and courage to her heart. Up ahead, she saw a pinprick of daylight.A moment later she burst out of the crater of the ruined Suva dome into the main temple area at Kini-Nui...

So she was running towards the exit, saw a pin-prick of daylight... and "a moment" later, she's out of the crater. How does that fit with any climbing? Unless she's a real pro at scaling rock/metal tubes that are hundreds of feet long, I just don't see the time frame fitting here.

The novel is only semi-canon, I'm just trying to clear up some of the confusion from Toatapio's novel refrences.Edit: bones = pro ninja. Edited May 24, 2013 by fishers64

[Athmos]

This.

 

This is why the Canon needs to be rewritten.

[fishers64]

This. This is why the Canon needs to be rewritten.

Because it includes Ga-Matoran scaling a rock wall in impossibly short amounts of time?Or doesn't?

[Athmos]

 

This. This is why the Canon needs to be rewritten.

Because it includes Ga-Matoran scaling a rock wall in impossibly short amounts of time?Or doesn't?

Because it includes Ga-Matoran scaling rock walls in impossibly short amounts of time.

 

That and other things I, personally, don't like, but yeah, that's off topic.

[Sir Kohran]

Hahli ran through the tunnels as fast as she could, still touching Jaller's mask. The thought of her fallen friend gave strength to her legs and courage to her heart. Up ahead, she saw a pinprick of daylight. A moment later she burst out of the crater of the ruined Suva dome into the main temple area at Kini-Nui... The entire population of the island was gathered behind them on the hillsides surrounding the temple, waiting to hear word from the Toa of Light. [...] She climbed out of the hole.

 

I find it odd that the vertical tunnel the Ussanui flew down is completely unmentioned. Given how deep it is, even a skilled climber would take more than a moment (which is a minute and a half, by the way) to get up it. Yet this makes it seem as though she went through the horizontal tunnels then arrived straight back at the surface. Had the writer actually watched the movie or just read the script?

 

Perhaps it is referred to as 'the hole', but how can she climb up/out of it after bursting out of the dome and being able to see around Kini-Nui?

 

 

Well, I mentioned earlier that she might have gathered loose stones and stacked them to climb up to the lowest part of it.

 

Given its distance from the floor, I can only assume there were a lot of loose stones lying around.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, to be stable enough IMO it would have to have a pyramid-like shape, so I doubt a one-stone-atop-another structure would work. That would seriously stretch "moment."

 

And probably Hapka was working from the script. The movie people might have decided to make the Ussanui flight more impressive with the vertical part late in the process. I would still go with the movie version on general principle (over a Hapka book, that is), but it's debatable. I say that mainly because when Hahli is shown emerging, she seems to be going fairly slow and cautiously, not "bursting".

[Katuko]

The nice thing about the word "moment" is that it has no actual definition in terms of measurable time. True it usually implies not much time, but I think we can safely disregard that here, unless we reinterpret the opening itself.

I cannot thiink of any instance where I have seen "moment" used to refer to anything more than a few seconds, at most a minute. The dictionary defintion of the word is "A brief, unspecified amount of time." followed by "The smallest portion of time; an instant." Further, historical: "A definite period of time, specifically one-tenth of a point, or one-fortieth or one-fiftieth of an hour." That is, at most 2 minutes."Synonyms: (brief span of time): stound, instant"Further, "brief" is defined as "Of short duration; happening quickly."So no, I refuse to accept "the next moment" as meaning anything but "within the next minute".Hapka might have gotten still images to work from. He might have seen the tilted camera angle as an actual horizontal tunnel, and he might have described Metru Nui as a city but forgotten to mention the obvious detail of it being in a giant lake.That said, the book is of questionable canon anyways due to the other apparent inconsistencies, such as no mention of a giant silver lake. Greg confirmed that the Matoran were supposed to be present for the Makuta fight, but if he was still available for answering questions publically I'd pop him a PM about the Mangaia entrance right away. Edited May 24, 2013 by Katuko

[Sir Kohran]

And probably Hapka was working from the script. The movie people might have decided to make the Ussanui flight more impressive with the vertical part late in the process.

 

Given that the MNOLG and the Legend of Mata Nui clips both show a vertical descent, I imagine it was always intended.

 

The script might've just failed to mention it; scripts tend to be sparse on descriptive detail. It might've just said, 'Takanuva gets onto the Ussanui, and flys on it through the destroyed Suva into the dark underground. He flies through the caves until he sees the door to Makuta's lair approaching', which skips the vertical tunnel completely but doesn't prevent the makers including it.

 

I cannot thiink of any instance where I have seen "moment" used to refer to anything more than a few seconds, at most a minute. The dictionary defintion of the word is "A brief, unspecified amount of time." followed by "The smallest portion of time; an instant." Further, historical: "A definite period of time, specifically one-tenth of a point, or one-fortieth or one-fiftieth of an hour." That is, at most 2 minutes."Synonyms: (brief span of time): stound, instant"Further, "brief" is defined as "Of short duration; happening quickly."So no, I refuse to accept "the next moment" as meaning anything but "within the next minute".

 

a medieval unit of time equal to 1/40 hour or 1.5 minutes. This meaning has come down to us only as "a brief interval of time."

 

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictM.html

 

 

I agree that 'moment' means a few minutes at the very most. If someone said to you, "I'll be back in a moment," then came back an hour later, you'd feel they'd taken longer than they said they would.

 

Hapka might have gotten still images to work from. He might have seen the tilted camera angle as an actual horizontal tunnel, and he might have described Metru Nui as a city but forgotten to mention the obvious detail of it being in a giant lake.

 

Good point about the camera angle. When viewed in isolation, the long shot of Takanuva flying through the tunnel does look horizontal. You'd need to see the angle of the entrance or exit shots to know he was actually going downards.

 

Cathy Hapka is female, I might add.

[Hexann]

And how did Hahli find her way back, anyway? She was in the trunk the whole time on the way there.

To spare complicating theories I'm just gonna say this: she could have opened the trunk.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Damaracx 7.0

[bonesiii]

So no, I refuse to accept "the next moment" as meaning anything but "within the next minute".

It can have relative uses too -- as in maybe the climb itself seemed short compared to the long run, as it would if she could climb at any decent pace (which is admittedly debatable). Keep in mind the main part of definition #1 listed on Dictionary.com:

 

an indefinitely short period of time;

Clearly Hapka seems to have had in mind a few seconds, yes, but at least she didn't explicitly state that, so in this case we don't need to simply reject the word choice; we can just reinterpret it.

 

Anyways, it really doesn't matter much since Hapka's books contain other known errors, etc. so if you prefer to simply ignore that word choice that's fine too. That was mainly why I brought up that "burst" already doesn't fit the movie portrayal so the very same sentence has a clear difference that's less easily reinterpreted anyways. I would say that one has to be thrown out, so no harm in throwing "moment" out too, just food for thought. In general, an "I refuse" reaction is unwise on general principle. Better to think it through calmly.

 

By the way, I would not appeal to archaic uses as if they were universal definite measures of time. That's not the main meaning of the word now; it's intentionally vague nowadays. The fact that the word once meant something different from its main use now is only of trivial interest for etymology purposes, just as many other words used to mean things quite different (sometimes opposite of modern uses). The modern use usually means something that short but can be used in more poetic senses or in cases where you're contrasting a relatively short period of time with a particularly grueling long time (as running uphill for many miles in the dark probably would count as... but again, admittedly so would climbing up that hole as portrayed... ).

 

Also, it's pretty common for sayings like "We'll be with you in a moment" to turn into hours. Nobody likes that but it's well-known in our society. Again, not saying Hapka had more than a minute or two in mind but that it's within accepted ranges of usage in English, especially if comparative.

 

Given that the MNOLG and the Legend of Mata Nui clips both show a vertical descent, I imagine it was always intended.

Well, let's address this now, since we've only vaguely talked around it so far being distracted with other points -- is this the same tunnel that's been seen before? I seem to recall the Rahkshi blasting a new entrance themselves before the whole Jaller death scene. Is this that hole? If so then the MNOG and LoMataN portrayals of the route the Toa took at end of 2001 are irrelevant. Hapka may have read a script saying something like "Ussanui flies into hole Rahkshi previously dug" and interpreted it as a meandering cave.

 

Or it might be as vague as you said, just more food for thought.

 

 

 

 

 

And how did Hahli find her way back, anyway? She was in the trunk the whole time on the way there.

To spare complicating theories I'm just gonna say this: she could have opened the trunk.

Neither view really matters. Either way it's a dark cave with mazelike twists and turns (apparently; at least that's what others said, and I'm assuming they're right; the movie version isn't totally clear on this), so peeking out a trunk would not seem that helpful, as it would all look the same. But it wouldn't really be a problem because like I said, she'd know that uphill is the way back. She didn't need to see it to know that.

Edited May 25, 2013 by bonesiii

[Click]

One other thing I could mention is it almost sounds like Hahli is climbing already in that Hapka passage. Perhaps she just looks up and sees the sky when she is almost finished, and literally arrives at the top "a moment later."I'm kind of surprised no one's asked this for ten years when it's so confusing.

[Madara: Mangekyou Master]

On top of that, if the Ussanui was going at a high speed, peeking from the trunk would probably only lead to "Ussanui-sickness." She probably just went uphill till she saw the light.

[Toatapio Nuva]

1. The passage used by the Toa Mata in MNOG and Takanuva in MOL are the same. It is the passage underneath the Suva Kaita. Of note is also that the Toa Mata descended on some lowering pedestals, but when Takanuva flew with the Ussanui, the pedestals were gone. This means the Rahkshi probably destroyed much more than just the Suva Kaita - they destroyed the whole lift system. Panrahk and Guurahk had a lot of work.

 

2. Originally Metru Nui was intended to be just a city in a cavern without a sea. Faber Files shows this as well as early concept art. It had been designed to be more of a "brain" than the later portrayal was. Probably the sea was added to create more familiarity and maybe disguise the big revelation better. Hapka used an early version of the script, so in that one Metru Nui was probably sdescribed in its original design. This is essentially the reason why the novel is considered semi-canon rather than canon.

 

Another interesting thing about the Suva Kaita passage and Hapka is that in her first novel, Tale of the Toa, the Suva Kaita is said to open up to reveal a spiralling tunnel underground or something like that. No pedestals of lifts to take the Toa Mata down, nor any Makoki Stones. The path just opens and the Toa walk in like it was a sloping tunnel.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Toatapio Nuva

[bonesiii]

One other thing I could mention is it almost sounds like Hahli is climbing already in that Hapka passage.

No it doesn't sound that way:

 

Hahli ran through the tunnels as fast as she could, still touching Jaller's mask. The thought of her fallen friend gave strength to her legs and courage to her heart. Up ahead, she saw a pinprick of daylight. A moment later she burst out of the crater of the ruined Suva dome into the main temple area at Kini-Nui...

Emphasis mine. You don't climb and run at the same time (at least not if the MOL portrayal of the tunnel is right).

 

I do notice it says "of the ruined Suva dome" there which would definitely imply it's the same tunnel.

 

 

1. The passage used by the Toa Mata in MNOG and Takanuva in MOL are the same. It is the passage underneath the Suva Kaita. Of note is also that the Toa Mata descended on some lowering pedestals, but when Takanuva flew with the Ussanui, the pedestals were gone. This means the Rahkshi probably destroyed much more than just the Suva Kaita - they destroyed the whole lift system. Panrahk and Guurahk had a lot of work.

 

2. Originally Metru Nui was intended to be just a city in a cavern without a sea. Faber Files shows this as well as early concept art. It had been designed to be more of a "brain" than the later portrayal was. Probably the sea was added to create more familiarity and maybe disguise the big revelation better. Hapka used an early version of the script, so in that one Metru Nui was probably sdescribed in its original design. This is essentially the reason why the novel is considered semi-canon rather than canon.

 

Another interesting thing about the Suva Kaita passage and Hapka is that in her first novel, Tale of the Toa, the Suva Kaita is said to open up to reveal a spiralling tunnel underground or something like that. No pedestals of lifts to take the Toa Mata down, nor any Makoki Stones. The path just opens and the Toa walk in like it was a sloping tunnel.

1) On what do you base the statement that it's the same? The above Hapka wording? I still think I recall Rahkshi breaking through the ground near there. However I don't have time to check. Just wanna be clear. Of course, "ruined" would imply they did break out but through the Suva...

 

2) So, it's confirmed she used an early version? Or are you concluding that?

 

3) The spiraling tunnel would certainly clear things up. Hahli might even be running along it.

 

It's possible that every media source has just made up its own vision for what these entrances are like just based on what felt cool to them without bothering to consult the story team for a single answer at all.

[Toatapio Nuva]

 

1. The passage used by the Toa Mata in MNOG and Takanuva in MOL are the same. It is the passage underneath the Suva Kaita. Of note is also that the Toa Mata descended on some lowering pedestals, but when Takanuva flew with the Ussanui, the pedestals were gone. This means the Rahkshi probably destroyed much more than just the Suva Kaita - they destroyed the whole lift system. Panrahk and Guurahk had a lot of work.

 

2. Originally Metru Nui was intended to be just a city in a cavern without a sea. Faber Files shows this as well as early concept art. It had been designed to be more of a "brain" than the later portrayal was. Probably the sea was added to create more familiarity and maybe disguise the big revelation better. Hapka used an early version of the script, so in that one Metru Nui was probably sdescribed in its original design. This is essentially the reason why the novel is considered semi-canon rather than canon.

 

Another interesting thing about the Suva Kaita passage and Hapka is that in her first novel, Tale of the Toa, the Suva Kaita is said to open up to reveal a spiralling tunnel underground or something like that. No pedestals of lifts to take the Toa Mata down, nor any Makoki Stones. The path just opens and the Toa walk in like it was a sloping tunnel.

1) On what do you base the statement that it's the same? The above Hapka wording? I still think I recall Rahkshi breaking through the ground near there. However I don't have time to check. Just wanna be clear. Of course, "ruined" would imply they did break out but through the Suva...

 

2) So, it's confirmed she used an early version? Or are you concluding that?

 

3) The spiraling tunnel would certainly clear things up. Hahli might even be running along it.

 

It's possible that every media source has just made up its own vision for what these entrances are like just based on what felt cool to them without bothering to consult the story team for a single answer at all.

 

1) Have you seen the movie? It is shown that the Rahkshi break through the Suva Kaita. And the Toa Mata enter through the Suva Kaita (or use it, at least). There are not two Suva Kaita's.

 

2) Greg stated that Hapka used the original script. That's why Makuta says "My duty remains to the shadows" in it, instead of the "My duty is to the Mask of Shadows" that he says in the movie. The latter was an error that the script writers kept because it was funny or something. Quite a way to execute an epic final scene... :/

 

3) The movie doesn't contain the spiraling staircase and I'm pretty sure that would be considered the most canon source. However, Hapka had a clear image of the Kini-Nui passage in mind, because she uses the spiralling tunnel both in Tale of the Toa and Mask of Light. And since she used the original script of Mask of Light (she had read it even before writing the first book), it is a good guess that the storyteam had something of the sort in mind as well at some point. I have no idea why it was changed.

[Katuko]

In general, an "I refuse" reaction is unwise on general principle. Better to think it through calmly.

I am perfectly calm, I just don't see the need to purposefully read words such as "moment" in a manner that implies a long passage of time, when the wording used in this book is almost crystal clear as "certainly not longer than a minute". In this case, either the book is portraying a horizontal run (false according to every other source) or it implies that the climb through the tunnel would take almost as little time as it took the Ussanui to fly straight down the passage (with stubby Matoran limbs). I am not calling Cathy a bad writer by any means, but I'm saying that she was likely unaware of the exact nature of Mangaia's entrance.

By the way, I would not appeal to archaic uses as if they were universal definite measures of time. That's not the main meaning of the word now; it's intentionally vague nowadays.

A am well aware, hence I only included it to prevent any reference to possible older uses. Today, the word means "a very short time", and in the old times it meant something like "at most two minutes". In society, we expect "a moment" to mean "a short period of time" as well.

Also, it's pretty common for sayings like "We'll be with you in a moment" to turn into hours. Nobody likes that but it's well-known in our society. Again, not saying Hapka had more than a minute or two in mind but that it's within accepted ranges of usage in English, especially if comparative.

Except that if you tell someone that, you are making an estimate that turns out to be wrong, because society also thinks "a moment" is simply not "an hour". A writer is not making guesses when narrating, unless the wording explicitly estimates. A writer who in the very same sentence fulfills the action described as taking "a moment" is simply not stretching the time beyond minutes.

Neither view really matters. Either way it's a dark cave with mazelike twists and turns (apparently; at least that's what others said, and I'm assuming they're right; the movie version isn't totally clear on this), so peeking out a trunk would not seem that helpful, as it would all look the same. But it wouldn't really be a problem because like I said, she'd know that uphill is the way back. She didn't need to see it to know that.

This is true. All Hahli would need is to run uphill and towards any slight light that might enter from above. The only problem with the scene as shown/described is that vertical tunnel, and we have yet to find any way for Hahli to get out of it as quickly as she did. The movie may have given the benefit of the doubt to a shout + elemental powers for the majority of the distance, but unfortunately we see the Toa stand a distance, not lifting a finger when she appears. Behind her, we see the hole, and it's still a smooth rock wall going straight down. Kinda like that infamous "Sparta kick" well.The tunnel is portrayed at being about 3 Toa's height (possibly a bit more) above the floor. Hahli is less than half a Toa's height. The Ussanui flies downwards for about 3 seconds before straightening out, with its size compared to the tunnel leaving no doubt that the tunnel is a hundred+ meters tall.Now, I will admit that we may give Hahli some benefit of the doubt regarding rock-climbing, as she is the Chronicler and main character of an online game. Even if every other Ga-Matoran sucks at climbing, Hahli has at least been grinding her strength, speed and balance stats to the max. The battle between Takanuva and Makuta may easily reach the time of a regular tennis match (since they get back in position each time a proto-ball is launched), so we can give some extra minutes there as well. Still, it's a long tunnel to climb in such a short amount of time when there's also a speech and Matoran decent to fit in. I'd say the simplest solution to this conundrum is that both the novel and the movie is either grossly underestimating the time it would take to reach and then climb the tunnel; or the fight went on for a lot longer than implied. Makuta was having a fun game of Kohlii, while Takanuva was busy running and blocking.

[bonesiii]

I am perfectly calm, I just don't see the need to purposefully read words such as "moment" in a manner that implies a long passage of time, when the wording used in this book is almost crystal clear as "certainly not longer than a minute". In this case, either the book is portraying a horizontal run (false according to every other source) or it implies that the climb through the tunnel would take almost as little time as it took the Ussanui to fly straight down the passage (with stubby Matoran limbs). I am not calling Cathy a bad writer by any means, but I'm saying that she was likely unaware of the exact nature of Mangaia's entrance.

As I said, I'm not talking about what Hapka had in mind; just that "short" versus "long" can be relative. I'm just talking about how we can reinterpret it differently from what Hapka thought. Anywho, doesn't really matter, just seems a better solution to me.

 

The movie may have given the benefit of the doubt to a shout + elemental powers for the majority of the distance

To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that the movie in any way implied that but rather that's what I would have tried if I was her instead of what the movie implied. Of course, she may have tried and they didn't hear her.

 

By the way, having rewatched the Kolhii battle part, I notice that Makuta was knocking down those weird green-glowing pillars, and yet there were still plenty left. Of course, that might have just been something he did for a few seconds, but it may imply the battle wasn't going on all that much longer.

 

 

Alright, so, the hole is the same one the Toa went down. I'd say this means that apparent geometric texture in the movie version should be interpreted as confirmation then that the vertical part was built somehow (part of the Kini-Nui deployment system?).

 

We could then go to a mix of the spiral and elevator system. I see two main possibilities, without drastically reimagining it.

 

First, in the Onu-mine thingy, there were sections that moved down that created spiral stairs. Perhaps the texture on the wall represents chunks that would move out, into the walls, creating multi-layered spiral stairs (rather than moving down like the Onu one, as that could only work for one circuit). That would create a spiral staircase that she could travel up. Maybe she found a switch for it. But it wouldn't quite reach the very top, so she had to climb the last bit. The book description could be used to describe running up the spiral staircase, so "moment" would still work, and "burst" even is kinda close though probably hyperbole, as the same book source later clarifies that as "climb".

 

Second, one of the early animations of the Toa going down (I forget if it was just a promo or part of the LoMataN vid or what) showed six elevator parts that would go all the way to the bottom, if bad memory serves. Perhaps Hahli found a button to control these and reversed the direction, lifting her up rapidly to near the top, and had to climb just a ways out from rubble of the Suva Kaita. This would stretch the book description and it wouldn't really be a spiral tunnel, but it would probably be faster.

 

Thunks?