Video Game General (Official)

[Terminus]

Honestly these conversations are gonna be pretty interesting in about a decade, or whenever the whole 'AAA games' thing finishes its current slow implosion. Seriously, so few of those games make their money back, apparently. Budgets are really out of control.

Another problem I see is that so many of the big AAA games are sequels. I don't always see a problem with that, but I'm not going to jump into Assassin's Creed 6 since I'd be missing out on a ton of prior story from the other games, and since pretty much every Call of Duty is the same, I'll be set with Advanced Warfare for pretty much the rest of the generation.

 

Anyways, I'd like to play a GoT game, but Walking Dead seriously turned me off from anything involving Telltale. It was kinda floating in the middle ground between a regular game and a visual novel, and between the story I really couldn't get into and the awful gameplay, I'm surprised I managed to complete it.

I kinda feel GoT would lend itself more to an RPG or the like anyways. I'd like to see that in the future.

[Hodor]

Telltale's GoT game is so far the best one.

 

That's not saying much, because both the book-based RTS and ESPECIALLY the show-based RPG are awful, but it captures the tone of the series very well.

 

It's still nowhere as good as the Crusader Kings II mod, though. That thing is amazing.

 

Honestly, I'd love to see some sort of tactical/strategy game set in Robert's Rebellion. Could be very fun.

[Dapper I Guess]

 

 

 ...and since pretty much every Call of Duty is the same, I'll be set with Advanced Warfare for pretty much the rest of the generation.

Not necessarily. The service that monitors and prevents hacking is moved to new sequels, so when Advanced Warfare 2 or 3 comes out, AW will be sadly rendered unplayable.

[Hodor]

I'm just saying, but I am becoming increasingly tempted to get an Xbox One for Killer Instinct and Scalebound.

 

Though KI is probably going to drop on PC soon.

[Terminus]

 

 

...and since pretty much every Call of Duty is the same, I'll be set with Advanced Warfare for pretty much the rest of the generation.

Not necessarily. The service that monitors and prevents hacking is moved to new sequels, so when Advanced Warfare 2 or 3 comes out, AW will be sadly rendered unplayable.

Really? Because last time I checked (a while ago, but still sometime after AW's release) MW2 on PS3 was still working perfectly fine.

 

Also Xbox needs to get more exclusives I'd want to play, because I've been pretty interested in Scalebound since it was announced.

[Hodor]

 Xbox needs to get more exclusives I'd want to play, because I've been pretty interested in Scalebound since it was announced.

The Xbox line has never had very many exclusives. It always was the system to get for the multiplats since it had architecture that was similar enough to PCs that made it easy to dev for as a lead system.

 

Now that the PS4 is not only technologically superior in every aspect (if only by virtue of 10% of the CPU on the Xbox One reserved for Kinect...even when it isn't used), but also has x86-based architecture, it... doesn't have much going for it. It doesn't help that everything it gets as an exclusive is ported over to PC. The only exception so far is Master Chief Collection, and with the whole Halo Online thing, I wouldn't be shocked if even that gets ported over if Halo 5 undersells.

 

I'm honestly pretty sure that the Xbox line is going to be discontinued as consoles next gen. Might be some Steam-esc service on PC or Microsoft publishes games as a third-party (like what they did with their DS titles).

[Archer Vonn]

yeah theres a lot of fair points there, i said some dumb stuff i admit it, but everyone's gotta weigh in, i get that too. ya'll making a lot of fair points, but at the same time you're all so biased you're making some reaches too. only nobody else will admit that since i'm the only one losing.

 

like this:

 

 

 

This is why games such as Metroid Prime, Deus Ex, Portal, Skyrim, and Left 4 Dead have such a strong and compelling story to tell.

 

out of that list, i've played skyrim. the entirety of skyrim's main plot is fed to you by NPCs, which completely contradicts your show v tell argument.

 

 

 

I play video games so that means I have no idea whatsoever what the heck "art" is.

 

not what i was saying at all! i was saying, you play video games, which means you enjoy them, which means you look at them with fondness, which makes you more likely to defend it than someone who looks at them objectively.

 

but yeah, i get it, my argument is weak. this isn't debate club, but if it was, i'd be off the team. i get it. attack my points, i'm still not wrong. and i'm not the only one who thinks they aren't art; maybe some of those people will argue this point better than i did. 

 

also

 

 

 A Lego site that you frequent. You're only insulting yourself here.

 

actually i'm insulting the rest of you, too. now let this end, i'm done here. unless you all want to agree with each other some more. 

[Takuma Nuva]

ya'll making a lot of fair points, but at the same time you're all so biased you're making some reaches too. only nobody else will admit that since i'm the only one losing.

Every single point I made I backed up with evidence, all of which was based on facts, not opinions. My arguments are completely unbiased. Additionally, your focus on win or lose is also what's hurting you. The point of a debate isn't to make sure you win, it's to present factual information that supports your stance on the subject. Your arguments were based on opinion ("[...]literature, since it is by far the greatest method of storytelling"), hypothesis ("[...]the examples you guys HAVE given would've been better if they existed in other mediums"), and purported facts that you never cited a source for ("[...]it's harder to empathize with 3d models, no matter how lifelike they are"). Then you try to gain credibility and persuasiveness through ad misericordiam and poisoning the well. If you want people to believe what you're saying, present evidence.

 

out of that list, i've played skyrim. the entirety of skyrim's main plot is fed to you by NPCs, which completely contradicts your show v tell argument.

Skyrim is quite possibly the best example out of that list to support what I'm saying. Yes, some of the story is gained through dialogue. None of it, however, is narrated for us which would be the biggest offender against show don't tell. But that only counts for a fracion of the lore. So much of what we learn about Tamriel is done so through the environment. Personal journals can be found lying about as well as expedition logs or all kinds of literature of different genres. Even more is told to us through completely nonverbal cues. Without a single written or spoken word we can learn a piece of story simply from the way Bethesda decorated a room, such as the bodies found when compared to the contents of the room or even their pockets -- the lighthouse mission is a decent example of this -- or even where they have specific NPCs at certain times of day -- Riften being an excellent example here.

 

i was saying, you play video games, which means you enjoy them, which means you look at them with fondness, which makes you more likely to defend it than someone who looks at them objectively.

You are only confirming exactly what I was saying. You are essentially claiming that just because a person likes something they are rendered incapable of viewing them logically and objectively. If your claim were true then that would completely discount the entire concept video game critics whose entire job is to objectively evaluate something they enjoy. Same goes for other forms of professional criticism. Being objective is easy: tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

attack my points, i'm still not wrong. and i'm not the only one who thinks they aren't art;

Except, as I've broken down for you, your points are wrong, especially the ones you made up. Also, just because more than one person thinks a certain way doesn't mean they can't be wrong. I don't even need to give an example of that.

 

actually i'm insulting the rest of you, too. now let this end, i'm done here. unless you all want to agree with each other some more.

Poisoning the well is not going to gain you any credibility, nor will trying to lay claim to "the last word". It just makes a weak argument appear even more desperate. I would really love to hear some actual, intelligent reasons for why video games cannot be considered art, but unless someone actually intends to present facts, I'm not likely to hear any.

 

Takuma Nuva

[Jobber]

 

 Xbox needs to get more exclusives I'd want to play, because I've been pretty interested in Scalebound since it was announced.

The Xbox line has never had very many exclusives. It always was the system to get for the multiplats since it had architecture that was similar enough to PCs that made it easy to dev for as a lead system.

 

Now that the PS4 is not only technologically superior in every aspect (if only by virtue of 10% of the CPU on the Xbox One reserved for Kinect...even when it isn't used), but also has x86-based architecture, it... doesn't have much going for it. It doesn't help that everything it gets as an exclusive is ported over to PC. The only exception so far is Master Chief Collection, and with the whole Halo Online thing, I wouldn't be shocked if even that gets ported over if Halo 5 undersells.

 

I'm honestly pretty sure that the Xbox line is going to be discontinued as consoles next gen. Might be some Steam-esc service on PC or Microsoft publishes games as a third-party (like what they did with their DS titles).

 

Yeah, everything gets ported over to PC because they beg for it.

 

Anyways, I'm thinking the 9th gen is going to be the last series of dedicated consoles we're going to see from both Microsoft and Sony. Technology isn't up to par yet.

[Tea-rex]

So, who's up for a FNaF movie?

[Just A Dot]

 

 

 

 through gameplay,

 

explain specifically how the gamplay in SOTC contributed to the story. 

 

 

 

This topic isn't controversial. There is no argument against it.

 

you're ignorant. google 'are video games art' and then tell me people are in agreement. if you can't tell me that, then it is, by definition, controversial.

 

i'll admit i was a little wrong (but frankly you guys are still sperging more than you need to) in saying that they aren't art- they can be, hypothetically, but they aren't right now. there are a few cases but those are so few and far between and the examples you guys HAVE given would've been better if they existed in other mediums. specifically literature, since it is by far the greatest method of storytelling. 

 

 

For starters, you are the one killing the colossi. 16 huge graceful creatures that take little notice or care to your presence. You invade their homes and murder them. In a film, I don't know if I'd realize that your character is the villain of the story. But in a game, I felt it. I felt horrible for what I was doing. One of the colossi actually has no means of defending itself, and I killed it. The final scene was especially heart-wrenching. You can try all you want for as long as you want to make it to the end of the temple, to the girl you've worked so hard to revive, but you know inside that you will never make it. The game doesn't end until you give up. That's powerful. That cannot be replicated in any other form of media.

 

I feel controversy is only a proper word if there is actually a debate for it. There is no debate against gaming having the potential to be art. There are just ignorant stupid people who refuse to accept that it's possible. If they had ANYTHING to support their cause, it could be controversy, but they don't. There is no way to argue that gaming has no potential to be art.

 

I personally cannot agree with your point at the end about other mediums. Heavy Rain would not have been as powerful as a book. Ico actually HAD a book, but you cannot replicate it's power there. Shadow of the Colossus wouldn't work as a book or film. Mother 3 cannot work as a book. If you truly think any of those could work better as a different form of media, while you are entitled to that opinion, I feel you really missed something playing any of those games.

 

 

 

 

 

You are trying to tells us that an entire art form is not art. 

 

nobody thinks video games are art except for gamers!

 

 

This is simply not accurate. I actually just had a discussion about this with a friend of mine last night. She is not a gamer. She has no interest in playing video games. But she also never once thought gaming couldn't be art.

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ghabulous Ghoti

[Terminus]

 

 

 

Xbox needs to get more exclusives I'd want to play, because I've been pretty interested in Scalebound since it was announced.

The Xbox line has never had very many exclusives. It always was the system to get for the multiplats since it had architecture that was similar enough to PCs that made it easy to dev for as a lead system.

 

Now that the PS4 is not only technologically superior in every aspect (if only by virtue of 10% of the CPU on the Xbox One reserved for Kinect...even when it isn't used), but also has x86-based architecture, it... doesn't have much going for it. It doesn't help that everything it gets as an exclusive is ported over to PC. The only exception so far is Master Chief Collection, and with the whole Halo Online thing, I wouldn't be shocked if even that gets ported over if Halo 5 undersells.

 

I'm honestly pretty sure that the Xbox line is going to be discontinued as consoles next gen. Might be some Steam-esc service on PC or Microsoft publishes games as a third-party (like what they did with their DS titles).

Yeah, everything gets ported over to PC because they beg for it.

 

Anyways, I'm thinking the 9th gen is going to be the last series of dedicated consoles we're going to see from both Microsoft and Sony. Technology isn't up to par yet.

I'd honestly like to see consoles go away, then I'd get a PC and be able to play absolutely everything. But I really don't see that happening anytime in the near future.

 

So, who's up for a FNaF movie?

Given the history of movies based off games, and the game said movie would be based off of... I don't expect it to be any good at all. Also my friends who are part of the crazy fanbase have completely killed the series for me.

[Just A Dot]

 

 

 

Xbox needs to get more exclusives I'd want to play, because I've been pretty interested in Scalebound since it was announced.

The Xbox line has never had very many exclusives. It always was the system to get for the multiplats since it had architecture that was similar enough to PCs that made it easy to dev for as a lead system.

 

Now that the PS4 is not only technologically superior in every aspect (if only by virtue of 10% of the CPU on the Xbox One reserved for Kinect...even when it isn't used), but also has x86-based architecture, it... doesn't have much going for it. It doesn't help that everything it gets as an exclusive is ported over to PC. The only exception so far is Master Chief Collection, and with the whole Halo Online thing, I wouldn't be shocked if even that gets ported over if Halo 5 undersells.

 

I'm honestly pretty sure that the Xbox line is going to be discontinued as consoles next gen. Might be some Steam-esc service on PC or Microsoft publishes games as a third-party (like what they did with their DS titles).

Yeah, everything gets ported over to PC because they beg for it.

 

Anyways, I'm thinking the 9th gen is going to be the last series of dedicated consoles we're going to see from both Microsoft and Sony. Technology isn't up to par yet.

I'd honestly like to see consoles go away, then I'd get a PC and be able to play absolutely everything. But I really don't see that happening anytime in the near future.

 

I am completely expecting either Microsoft or Sony (if not both) to drop out of the console business soon. Nintendo's too stubborn to leave though.

[Blessed Blade]

Honestly, and I'm probably the only one of this opinion, but I kinda still prefer consoles. Because you don't have like ten thousand different combinations of factors to keep in mind, as long as it works on the test machine, it works period.

 

I wouldn't mind Sony or Microsoft going out of the console game(though I'd prefer at least one of them to stay in for competition sake), but Nintendo thrives on the fact that they can actually deliver quality that'll stay the same across everything you play it on unless it's got a defect or it's not the intended platform(if you get what I mean).

[Jobber]

Just to be clear, I'm almost certain that both Microsoft and Sony won't stop making systems all together, if that wasn't obvious enough. The next iteration of 'consoles' will be most likely an incarnation of the Steam Box.

[Archer Vonn]

 

 

 The point of a debate isn't to make sure you win, it's to present factual information that supports your stance on the subject.

 

that's a philosophical point. and yea, i was just sharing my opinion. ya'll started jumping down my throat for doing so. naturally, i'm gonna start getting defensive and/or poisonous when i get a dozen people quoting me and relentlessly telling me how wrong i am. but you're still making me out to be the bad guy.

 

 

 

Yes, some of the story is gained through dialogue. None of it, however, is narrated for us which would be the biggest offender against show don't tell. But that only counts for a fracion of the lore

 

maybe i'm misremembering skyirm or maybe you're misrepresenting it, but as i recall, every objective (in the main plot, at least) and the effect that it will have is explained to you by various jarls, greybeards, or dragons. same thing in the college questline and the companion questline, it's all just lined out for you to do in whatever order you please.  i think that your comment about the expedition logs doesn't particularly help your show v tell argument since it is very close in nature to NPCs simply telling you what's going on, but i think your points about the non-verbal cues and the whipsering of NPCs in riften are valid. i will point out, though, that this:

 

 

 

So much of what we learn about Tamriel is done so through the environment

 

this refers to setting, not plot, which is what i was speaking of.

 

 

 

If your claim were true then that would completely discount the entire concept video game critics whose entire job is to objectively evaluate something they enjoy.

 

this is somewhat ignorant. video game journalists are often no more qualified to do their jobs than you or i. they're just glorified bloggers, sharing their opinions as i have done. this is different than literary, film, art, music critics, or news journalists, all of which have actually studied in their field and are learned in what makes their medium good or bad. video games aren't that far along.

 

 

I would really love to hear some actual, intelligent reasons for why video games cannot be considered art, but unless someone actually intends to present facts, I'm not likely to hear any.

 

i keep trying to tell you i don't have any, and if you want, to look some up. 

 

 

 

For starters, you are the one killing the colossi. 16 huge graceful creatures that take little notice or care to your presence. You invade their homes and murder them. In a film, I don't know if I'd realize that your character is the villain of the story. But in a game, I felt it. I felt horrible for what I was doing. One of the colossi actually has no means of defending itself, and I killed it. The final scene was especially heart-wrenching. You can try all you want for as long as you want to make it to the end of the temple, to the girl you've worked so hard to revive, but you know inside that you will never make it. The game doesn't end until you give up. That's powerful. That cannot be replicated in any other form of media.

 

first off, you have a very poetic way of looking at it, but i do think it would be successful as a film or novel. maybe the average viewer would watch it and then think nothing of it, but there are plenty of aficionados who would clue into it's true meaning. 

 

 

 

 your character is the villain of the story

 

this is sort of a side argument, but i think a case could be made to say that wander isn't actually a villain; rather a pawn of one. he does brutalize some colossi, but he does so in the name of love and thinking that they were just dumb animals, and that there was nothing special about them other than the fact that they were quite large. it does raise some interesting questions about moral relativism, but so do a HUGE amount of films and novels.

 

 

 

There is no debate against gaming having the potential to be art.

 

yea, i misspoke when i said that. but there aren't enough examples yet to formally make a case for them, i feel.

 

@blade: so you prefer consoles over PC, but you only play the console which has the fewest amounts of games on PC, and wish that the consoles that share games with PC would leave? i don't think you prefer consoles over PC, i just think you prefer nintendo games over the rest of them.

 

 

I am completely expecting either Microsoft or Sony (if not both) to drop out of the console business soon. Nintendo's too stubborn to leave though.

 

why would sony leave? isn't the ps4 doing well? microsoft hasn't really contributed anything to consoles since early in the 360s life, but i still wouldn't want them to leave.

[Blessed Blade]

@blade: so you prefer consoles over PC, but you only play the console which has the fewest amounts of games on PC, and wish that the consoles that share games with PC would leave? i don't think you prefer consoles over PC, i just think you prefer nintendo games over the rest of them.

I thought it was kinda clear that I did prefer Nintendo games. =P But, my point wasn't that. My point was that Microsoft has shown they're perfectly willing to ditch the Xbox if it so suits them(Live for Windows, etc), and Sony really does thrive off the multi-plat stuff in between the stuff their studios sometimes puts out. Nintendo and Sony are the best examples, really, for why consoles are good; because they tend to make stuff that is pretty quality(iffy on current Sony, not enough experience, but PS1/PS2 era Sony definitely fit the bill); but you just can't get an experience that is precisely the same across systems if all the systems are entirely different.

 

After all, it's one thing for a system to have glitches that are unexpected(See: Disc read errors); but it's another entirely different thing for the mishaps with a game to be because it wasn't coded right or for the 200+ combinations of current hardware, let alone the ones from even a year ago.

 

(Also, P.S., I do in fact game a lot on my PC, but I've run into one of those 'not coded right/not set up even for then-current hardware' issues with a couple games; and even then, it sometimes has trouble. Though, I'll admit that often I tend to multi-task, something not possible on a console without stopping play. >>')

[Hodor]

 

 

 Xbox needs to get more exclusives I'd want to play, because I've been pretty interested in Scalebound since it was announced.

The Xbox line has never had very many exclusives. It always was the system to get for the multiplats since it had architecture that was similar enough to PCs that made it easy to dev for as a lead system.

 

Now that the PS4 is not only technologically superior in every aspect (if only by virtue of 10% of the CPU on the Xbox One reserved for Kinect...even when it isn't used), but also has x86-based architecture, it... doesn't have much going for it. It doesn't help that everything it gets as an exclusive is ported over to PC. The only exception so far is Master Chief Collection, and with the whole Halo Online thing, I wouldn't be shocked if even that gets ported over if Halo 5 undersells.

 

I'm honestly pretty sure that the Xbox line is going to be discontinued as consoles next gen. Might be some Steam-esc service on PC or Microsoft publishes games as a third-party (like what they did with their DS titles).

 

Yeah, everything gets ported over to PC because they beg for it.

 

Anyways, I'm thinking the 9th gen is going to be the last series of dedicated consoles we're going to see from both Microsoft and Sony. Technology isn't up to par yet.

 

It's less that they beg for it, more that the PC market provides a handy 'secondary' market to games. Considering how wildly ballooning budgets are, the PC market can really help cover costs. It's why so many games are multiplat; they literally have to be in order to maximize the profits. And even that doesn't always save a game- for example, Dragon Age Inquisition. That game is speculated to have cost 80 million dollars, and was released across five platforms, but every chart data we have point to it failing to sell. Which makes it the third (maybe even fourth) Bioware title in recent memory to sell badly.

 

All of them consecutive, too.

 

I mean, a studio that's doing really well doesn't have an office converted into pumping out DLC and add-ons, and gets their recently announced, big budget original IP cancelled.

 

Also I honestly doubt that we'll see consoles turn into Steam Machine-esc hardware. We have no idea if the Gabencube is going to do so hot with the markets they're aiming for- which is mostly the console market. The multiple price points for various pre-made systems might be a turn off to the casual market, since it could confuse buyers that aren't familiar with the quasi-PC structure of the Steam Machine.

 

 

why would sony leave? isn't the ps4 doing well? microsoft hasn't really contributed anything to consoles since early in the 360s life, but i still wouldn't want them to leave.

Sony's been suffering massive losses company wide. The PS branch is really the only thing that makes them money. If they leave the console market, it's because they literally ccan't afford to sustain themselves anymore.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Hodor

[Archer Vonn]

 

Sony's been suffering massive losses company wide. The PS branch is really the only thing that makes them money. If they leave the console market, it's because they literally ccan't afford to sustain themselves anymore.

 

 

i'm aware of that, but i figured it was more likely that SCEA would just separate from the company rather than they'd bail altogether

 

 

 

(iffy on current Sony, not enough experience, but PS1/PS2 era Sony definitely fit the bill)

 

i think that currently sony is making just as quality games as they were back then, only now the playing field is more even between them and their competitors. 

[Hodor]

 

 

Sony's been suffering massive losses company wide. The PS branch is really the only thing that makes them money. If they leave the console market, it's because they literally ccan't afford to sustain themselves anymore.

 

 

i'm aware of that, but i figured it was more likely that SCEA would just separate from the company rather than they'd bail altogether

 

 

 

(iffy on current Sony, not enough experience, but PS1/PS2 era Sony definitely fit the bill)

 

i think that currently sony is making just as quality games as they were back then, only now the playing field is more even between them and their competitors. 

 

Yeah, same. I only really see them bailing if they go completely bankrupt before SCEA separates from the parent company.

[ineverlikedfelt]

Ah, the sony is going bankrupt/Psn is keeping sony afloat meme.

This chart of profits and loss will show otherwise.

Edited April 11, 2015 by ineverlikedfelt

[Just A Dot]

 

 

For starters, you are the one killing the colossi. 16 huge graceful creatures that take little notice or care to your presence. You invade their homes and murder them. In a film, I don't know if I'd realize that your character is the villain of the story. But in a game, I felt it. I felt horrible for what I was doing. One of the colossi actually has no means of defending itself, and I killed it. The final scene was especially heart-wrenching. You can try all you want for as long as you want to make it to the end of the temple, to the girl you've worked so hard to revive, but you know inside that you will never make it. The game doesn't end until you give up. That's powerful. That cannot be replicated in any other form of media.

 

first off, you have a very poetic way of looking at it, but i do think it would be successful as a film or novel. maybe the average viewer would watch it and then think nothing of it, but there are plenty of aficionados who would clue into it's true meaning. 

 

 

 

 your character is the villain of the story

 

this is sort of a side argument, but i think a case could be made to say that wander isn't actually a villain; rather a pawn of one. he does brutalize some colossi, but he does so in the name of love and thinking that they were just dumb animals, and that there was nothing special about them other than the fact that they were quite large. it does raise some interesting questions about moral relativism, but so do a HUGE amount of films and novels.

 

 

 

There is no debate against gaming having the potential to be art.

 

yea, i misspoke when i said that. but there aren't enough examples yet to formally make a case for them, i feel.

 

I am completely expecting either Microsoft or Sony (if not both) to drop out of the console business soon. Nintendo's too stubborn to leave though.

 

why would sony leave? isn't the ps4 doing well? microsoft hasn't really contributed anything to consoles since early in the 360s life, but i still wouldn't want them to leave.

 

You may be able to interpret the deeper meanings of SotC if it were a different form of media, but you wouldn't feel it the same way. It wasn't so much that the character was bad that got me, but rather, that I was the one making him do bad things.

 

I feel the message of the game is that love is the most powerful emotion, but that doesn't make him a good character for committing his acts out of love. He was still killing the innocent. It's up in the air how intelligent the Colossi were, but they had done nothing wrong. Meanwhile, I while I certainly do view the character as a victim of Dormin, he still murdered, because a voice in his head told him it was the right thing to do. It's actually really interesting that Dormin only talks to him - most interpretations of the Devil only have him tempting a victim, not directly causing any harm.

 

I'm also not saying films and novels cannot tell the same message, but I don't think they can really tell it in the same way. A video game has a unique way of communicating a message through gameplay.

 

I forgive you for mispeaking. I'm sorry if I came off as overly rude or something, but I feel very strongly about this topic and don't take well to someone saying gaming has no potential as art. I'm perfectly fine with you saying any game (even my favorite, SotC) as not being art, but saying the media is incapable of art just infuriates me.

 

As for the console business here, Sony's not doing too well as a company all-around, if I remember correctly. Also, the PS4 doing better than it's competition doesn't mean the PS4 is doing well. The whole console industry is at a fairly low point compared to the previous generation. I don't really want Sony to leave (I'm pretty indifferent to Microsoft leaving, though), but I'm not 100% convinced we will see a PS6, you know?

[Archer Vonn]

 

 

 It wasn't so much that the character was bad that got me, but rather, that I was the one making him do bad things.

 

but you were just playing the game, you never actually had an opportunity to weigh your options and refuse the spirit, and still progress through the game. the story has one way it can go, regardless of whether or not you think it's the right direction.

 

 

 

 A video game has a unique way of communicating a message through gameplay.

 

i disagree, except for heavy rain. that one is a real special case. 

 

 

 

I feel the message of the game is that love is the most powerful emotion, but that doesn't make him a good character for committing his acts out of love. He was still killing the innocent. It's up in the air how intelligent the Colossi were, but they had done nothing wrong. Meanwhile, I while I certainly do view the character as a victim of Dormin, he still murdered, because a voice in his head told him it was the right thing to do. It's actually really interesting that Dormin only talks to him - most interpretations of the Devil only have him tempting a victim, not directly causing any harm.

 

if i understand the lore correctly, the colossi were parts of dormin, right? fragments of his being? in which case, while they might have seemed gentle and innocent, it was only because they were used to being so much more than they were. that might be why wander becomes progressively darker throughout the game, because he's absorbing the energy of dormin in order to become his new host. idk. it's pretty complex no matter which way you slice it.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Archer Vonn

[Takuma Nuva]

 

 A video game has a unique way of communicating a message through gameplay.

 

i disagree, except for heavy rain. that one is a real special case.

 

I highly, highly, highly encourage you to play Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons. I can't tell you why for spoiler reasons, but this is probably the game that most gets it. It makes the way you control the game such an integral part of the story -- one without a single spoken word -- that to evoke the kind of emotions it does would be impossible with any other form of media.

 

that's a philosophical point. and yea, i was just sharing my opinion. ya'll started jumping down my throat for doing so. naturally, i'm gonna start getting defensive and/or poisonous when i get a dozen people quoting me and relentlessly telling me how wrong i am. but you're still making me out to be the bad guy.

Except that's not the case. Some of what you're saying is opinion, but most of it you are presenting as not only facts, but facts that aren't true and/or you consistently neglect to support with any kind of evidence or sources. Nobody is jumping down your throat because you have opinions; it's happening because you're falsifying facts. Also, there is never any grounds for putting down other people just because your points are being criticized; that's just you not controlling your emotions. I want to emphasize again that it's not you that people are criticizing, it's what you're saying; you can't take things so personally. The only person that views you as "the bad guy" is yourself.

 

maybe i'm misremembering skyirm or maybe you're misrepresenting it, but as i recall, every objective (in the main plot, at least) and the effect that it will have is explained to you by various jarls, greybeards, or dragons. same thing in the college questline and the companion questline, it's all just lined out for you to do in whatever order you please.  i think that your comment about the expedition logs doesn't particularly help your show v tell argument since it is very close in nature to NPCs simply telling you what's going on, but i think your points about the non-verbal cues and the whipsering of NPCs in riften are valid. i will point out, though, that this:

 

So much of what we learn about Tamriel is done so through the environment

 

this refers to setting, not plot, which is what i was speaking of.

 

I don't see how getting your story through NPCs is such a problem. You're not hearing the story from a narrator; you're hearing it from the very characters whom are directly involved in the events taking place. Also, your comment that "every objective [...] and the effect that it will have is explained to you" is false. Recall the part where you're sent to retrieve The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller. You're lead to believe by every possible source that the end effect is grab the horn and get back. Instead, you arrive to find it has been taken by The Blades. It made for a more organic way to fold them into the story and went against your expectations. I could provide more examples, but I digress. Not every single aspect of Skyrim's storytelling in questlines is perfect, but there's far more to the story than just the quests. You can find random cabins in the wilderness that are part of no quest but still tell a story all their own if you just investigate and infer. This is also what I'm referring to when I speak of telling story through the environment. I'm not simply talking about the setting.

 

 

If your claim were true then that would completely discount the entire concept video game critics whose entire job is to objectively evaluate something they enjoy.

 

this is somewhat ignorant. video game journalists are often no more qualified to do their jobs than you or i. they're just glorified bloggers, sharing their opinions as i have done. this is different than literary, film, art, music critics, or news journalists, all of which have actually studied in their field and are learned in what makes their medium good or bad. video games aren't that far along.

 

You keep calling people ignorant and yet you have yet to provide any evidence that you are actually researching or looking up any of these polarizing claims you're making. Again, cite your source. Provide me just one scrap of evidence that backs up any of your claims. Just because video games haven't been around for as long as other forms of entertainment, that doesn't disqualify them from being professionally criticized. Video games have been around for more than fifty years, not that that actually affects a human being's capacity for logical examination. Many websites that focus on the review and criticism of video games have been around for just as long if not longer than any other form of website since the internet gained traction. There are many people who are more than qualified to comment on video games and their culture. Two very good examples of this are John "Totalbiscuit" Bain and -- for better or worse -- Anita Sarkeesian. Yes, they give their opinions, but they also present facts which they then back up with actual evidence. While video games may not be as culturally well-accepted as the other forms of journalism you've mentioned, that doesn't mean there isn't anyone -- and there are a lot -- that has actually sat down and studied the subject beyond just sitting around and playing them.

 

It's actually funny that you mention these other critics and journalists who have studied their field because, as you suggested, I did google "are video games art" and I found some interesting results. It's these critics and journalists that you hold as being more qualified and yet, I might add, haven't studied this field at all that make up the majority of "professional" opinion that video games can't be art. They are completely unqualified.

 

So now, in the interest of fairness, it's your turn to look something up. Go look for the video about the making of Deus Ex: Human Revolution. If you can honestly watch this whole thing and still tell me that video games aren't already art, fine. But this one video will go over everything you've been arguing against and how they overcame it. Story-telling organically, professional writers pioneering with a serious role in the industry, relating to and empathizing with CGI models of humans, gameplay that has a tangible effect on the story, stimulating emotions, and more. But what's evident is not only what they did, but how they did it. They had a real passion for this monumental goal that they were attempting to reach. They didn't just set out to make a game that had the latest and greatest in gameplay concepts and would sell well. They set out to make a game that they could truly believe. It is that passion and that drive that made DX:HR what it is: A veritable piece of art.

Takuma Nuva

[Just A Dot]

 

 

 

 It wasn't so much that the character was bad that got me, but rather, that I was the one making him do bad things.

 

but you were just playing the game, you never actually had an opportunity to weigh your options and refuse the spirit, and still progress through the game. the story has one way it can go, regardless of whether or not you think it's the right direction.

 

 

 

 A video game has a unique way of communicating a message through gameplay.

 

i disagree, except for heavy rain. that one is a real special case. 

 

 

 

I feel the message of the game is that love is the most powerful emotion, but that doesn't make him a good character for committing his acts out of love. He was still killing the innocent. It's up in the air how intelligent the Colossi were, but they had done nothing wrong. Meanwhile, I while I certainly do view the character as a victim of Dormin, he still murdered, because a voice in his head told him it was the right thing to do. It's actually really interesting that Dormin only talks to him - most interpretations of the Devil only have him tempting a victim, not directly causing any harm.

 

if i understand the lore correctly, the colossi were parts of dormin, right? fragments of his being? in which case, while they might have seemed gentle and innocent, it was only because they were used to being so much more than they were. that might be why wander becomes progressively darker throughout the game, because he's absorbing the energy of dormin in order to become his new host. idk. it's pretty complex no matter which way you slice it.

 

In regards to your first point, it never occured to me to refuse the demon. I fell for its trap. Part of the power of it was how helpless you felt, like that was your ONLY option.

 

As for the second, that's fair. My only point there is that games have the potential for something more. Whether or not it's utilized is not the argument I'm making.

 

I viewed the Colossi as beings that were likely in the world for a long time, and were given the fragments of Dormin to guard. Dormin then corrupted them, which explains why some are more vicious than others, and why none of them can beat you easily - Dormin may have been influencing them to not crush you in their fists when they hold you, you know? It's never been elaborated on exactly what the Colossi were, but I interpreted them as natural beings of some sort.

[Archer Vonn]

also that final one? that one was evil. that one was the god of gods, ready to smite you like the worm you are. i do not think the colossi were innocent in all this, maybe just that the game tries to trick you into thinking they are. that game is deceptive from beginning to end.

[Blessed Blade]

 

(iffy on current Sony, not enough experience, but PS1/PS2 era Sony definitely fit the bill)

 

i think that currently sony is making just as quality games as they were back then, only now the playing field is more even between them and their competitors.

 

That'd make sense, yeah, but I kinda also have to take a step back and examine stuff in a greater light:

 

Sony(Or rather their first/second party companies) is notorious for coming up with IP ideas that they just abandon or sell off to be killed. Like, for example, how they sold off Spyro after three very successful games which were probably one of the big things to help the PS1 in its successful stomp of the N64 back in the day. Or Crash Bandicoot, which they did the same thing to, when it like singlehandedly brought people to the PS1 in the early days. ._.

 

Then Jak just went dead quiet, and Insomniac's been doing who knows what since the last main-line series Ratchet and Clank game... And, correct me if I'm wrong, but is Sly been put into inactivity too?

 

Really, my issue is that they have, or had, all these things that basically allowed them to compete directly against that who mattered... And then they threw it away when it shifted even slightly, in favour of the more realistic stuff, instead of keeping a balance between everything.

[Jobber]

I've always wonder what happened to the Sly Cooper games, lol. I guess the studio's too preoccupied on the inFamous series to be bother to make any new installments. 

[Just A Dot]

also that final one? that one was evil. that one was the god of gods, ready to smite you like the worm you are. i do not think the colossi were innocent in all this, maybe just that the game tries to trick you into thinking they are. that game is deceptive from beginning to end.

I'm not sure I agree with that either. It attacked you on sight, but it could also see the 15 pillars of light where it's brothers had died. It knew you were there to kill it. When you approach it, it just looks at you ind wonder. It stops attacking because it doesn't really want to hurt you, it's interested in what you are.

 

I've always wonder what happened to the Sly Cooper games, lol. I guess the studio's too preoccupied on the inFamous series to be bother to make any new installments. 

Sanzaru made Sly 4 about two years ago. I know everyone but me hated Sly 4, but I found Sly 4 to be my second favorite in the series (second to only the first game).

[Archer Vonn]

sony doesn't want their IPs to get stale like nintendo's have. literally no fault there. and btw, insomniac made resistance on ps3, and they're doing (i think it's by them, anyway) sunset overdrive on xbox one. they're doing one game on xbox one, not sure what it was. jak was made by sucker punch, i think, who then went on to make infamous.

[Blessed Blade]

Jak was made by Naughty Dog, Sly was Sucker Punch.

 

But, Insomniac made another series on the PS3, and also did Ratchet games too, so that's not really an excuse. Plus, there's a difference between IPs getting 'stale' and IPs being taken out back and shot, like Spyro, Crash, and Jak.

[Archer Vonn]

 

Plus, there's a difference between IPs getting 'stale' and IPs being taken out back and shot, like Spyro, Crash, and Jak.

 

well, obviously. these are exact polar opposites. and saying they were 'taken out back and shot' is just a negative way of looking at some series that devs didn't want to make any more. there's nothing wrong with that.

 

 

 

It stops attacking because it doesn't really want to hurt you, it's interested in what you are.

 

my impression was it stopped attacking you because you were too close to it, and if it threw more lightning at you it'd just hurt itself. also, your logic sort of doesn't make any sense. if it knows you to be some kind of monster and acts first on that impulse, out of self defense, why would it suddenly stop defending itself just to satisfy it's own curiosity? you don't ever try to make peace or do anything to imply to it that it is safe.

[Blessed Blade]

Well, it was kinda a true statement with Crash and Spyro, considering how they were treated after they were sold...

[Hodor]

Jak was Naughty Dog.

 

Who've flat out denied any chances of a Jak 4 in favor of doing more Last of Us-esc titles.

[Archer Vonn]

fine by me. i've no interest in cartoony games, and post-apocalypse is my jam.

[Black Six]

Hey guys, just a reminder on a good piece of advice: don't feed the trolls.

 

If someone is making argumentative posts for the sake of being argumentative, just ignore them and continue your discussion. Also, feel free to report posts that are being disrespectful or insulting so the staff can take care of them.

[BrickPharaoh]

Considering getting Steam at this point. Miss gaming too much. Though probably won't have time for it. Any thoughts?

[Ehksidian]

Well, Steam is completely free, so there's no reason not to get it if you just want to get some games. Plus, there's tons of sales, so if you ever want to get a game, you can probably wait for it to go on sale.

[LegoSWfan]

Anyone play transformers WfC?

[Takuma Nuva]

Anyone play transformers WfC?

War for Cybertron was good, but Fall of Cybertron was, hands down, unbelievably better in my opinion. It felt much more solid and had some amazing ways to mix up the levels with the characters you use.

Takuma Nuva